Making DR/ER mean something

[Ashtagon]

Level 20 barbarian. DR 5. Yawn, who cares about that?

Seriously, DR is a really crap class feature. Energy resistance isn't much better.

The fix:

Damage Reduction: Multiply the DR number by the character's level (or EL for critters with monster HD etc).

Energy Resistance: If the character is level 5+, multiply the ER number by the character's level, then divide by five. otherwise, no change.

This typically results in a potential DR 100 for a L20 barbarian, or ER 80 for a creature with 20 ER under RAW.

* DR/ER is less than 1/2 base damage dealt: DR/ER reduces damage on a 1:1 basis.
* DR/ER is at least 0.5x base damage dealt: You take 1/2 actual damage.
* DR/ER is at least 1x base damage dealt: You take 1/3 actual damage.
* DR/ER is at least 2x base damage dealt: You take 1/5 actual damage.
* DR/ER is at least 3x base damage dealt: You take 1/10 actual damage.
* DR/ER is at least 4x base damage dealt: You take 1/20 actual damage.
* DR/ER is at least 5x base damage dealt: You take 1/30 actual damage.
* DR/ER is at least 6x base damage dealt: You take 1/50 actual damage.

Round all fractions down for damage dealt.

(The last couple of rows are more for completeness really; I don't expect they'd get used).

Any obvious flaws?

[Random832]

Any obvious flaws?

Um....


This typically results in a potential DR 100 for a L20 barbarian

:smalleek:

[Yakk]

This seems clunky.

Not only does each attack require two divisions, it also requires a table look-up to determine what the second division should be!

[blazinghand]

So, against an attack that deals 10 damage, if you have 4 DR you get rid of damage at a 1:1 ratio, so you take 6 damage. If you have 9 DR you ignore half o the damage, so you take 5 damage. So at low levels, DR is going to be oddly scaling.

Gaining DR as a product of base DR and character level is dangerous, though. What happens when the barbarian 10 puts on some adamantine medium armor and has DR 40? If you deal 70 damage to him, which should be a massive blow, he takes 35 damage.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

If you're already comparing damage to DR/ER, there's really no reason to do any additional math. Why not just boost DR and ER up to a useful level and leave its mechanics alone?

[LordZarth]

DR 5. Yawn, who cares about that?

Um, LOLWUT?

DR is ALWAYS useful. -5 damage. In. Every. Physical. Situation. Even 100 damage to 95 damage is useful, especially EVERY TIME you're hit.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Um, LOLWUT?

DR is ALWAYS useful. -5 damage. In. Every. Physical. Situation. Even 100 damage to 95 damage is useful, especially EVERY TIME you're hit.

He does have a point, though. Yeah, you're reducing damage you take from every attack by 5, but by the time the barbarian gets DR 5 there's a good chance that many monsters can drop him from full to -10 in a single attack, or that a full attack can bring him down to -30 (so ignoring 20 points of damage does nothing). It really has to get into the 15 to 20 range to stop full attacks and ambushes rather than being just a small ablative defense.

[Origomar]

He does have a point, though. Yeah, you're reducing damage you take from every attack by 5, but by the time the barbarian gets DR 5 there's a good chance that many monsters can drop him from full to -10 in a single attack, or that a full attack can bring him down to -30 (so ignoring 20 points of damage does nothing). It really has to get into the 15 to 20 range to stop full attacks and ambushes rather than being just a small ablative defense.

Honestly if the DM let that happen in ONE attack hes kind of a jerk. Alot of balance issues rely heavily on the DM anyway.

[Milskidasith]

You can't use rule zero to justify rules imbalances, especially considering it's really hard to figure out a way to rule 0 DR 5 for a barbarian into being useful while at the same time having the creature he's resisting actually be threatening.

[Ashtagon]

Old red dragon is CR 20, and it's bite does 2d8+13 (ave. 22). Against that, DR 5 is justified. But over on the char-op boards, it's not uncommon to fight character designs dealing in excess of 100 hp per hit.

I guess the conclusion is that it is charop that is broken, not DR/ER.

[Elfin]

Nice to wrap that up smoothly.

[tyckspoon]

Old red dragon is CR 20, and it's bite does 2d8+13 (ave. 22). Against that, DR 5 is justified. But over on the char-op boards, it's not uncommon to fight character designs dealing in excess of 100 hp per hit.

I guess the conclusion is that it is charop that is broken, not DR/ER.

Or your monsters need to pick up their games too. Most monsters have a few potentially lethal options that you're usually supposed to ignore (this can be as simple as changing really stupid feat selections for things that actually help the monster.) A dragon, for example, should be using Power Attack just like the PCs do. An Old Red starts with +36 to-hit, and it's a spellcaster. Give it.. mm.. Divine Favor and Bull's Strength, since Reds can use Cleric spells as well. +5 to hit and +5 extra static damage. Feed some of that back to Power Attack, say down to a 'mere' +30 to hit since Barbarians don't tend to be designed as AC tanks, so the damage value is 4d6 (Old Reds are Gargantuan, not Huge) + ... hold on a second.. 11 from Power Attacking and 3 for Divine Favor plus 14 from the buffed Strength is 28 static with a dice average of another 14. 37 damage after DR 5/-, and that's just one attack- if the dragon is bothering to use a physical attack on, chances are you're eating a Full Attack, so brace for Claw/Claw/Wing/Wing/Tail Slap as well (and the Tail Slap gets 1.5x Strength bonus.) After that experience, your Barbarian is wishing he had more DR and very thankful that dragons don't have native access to Greater Magic Fang.

[Eloel]

A similar, easier to use and keep in mind system that has balance on it, is using percentages & numbers together. DR X means (Damage * (100-X)%) - X.
This makes kind of more sense, since you're using the same formula over the whole game. Granted, it makes DR more powerful, but it really needs to be anyway. (Most DR I've ever seen is 30 on some weird monster. With Piercing Immunity & stuff around, DR won't be that much of a game breaker)

100 damage, with DR5 (Barbarian) is reduced to 90
(100 * (100 - 5)%) - 5 = (100 * 95%) - 5 = 95 - 5 = 90
50 is reduced to 43
20 is reduced to 14
etc.

[Zeta Kai]

Nice to wrap that up smoothly.

Thaaaaaank you. shYeah, balancing anything against the CharOps boards is playing an entirely different game than the one at my kitchen table. Not that the theoreticals aren't amusing from time to time, but when it comes down to actually playing the actually game, DR5 at 20th level isn't lame.

If you wanted to double it, I doubt it would screw up your game much. But this is a convoluted "system" that goes way overboard, both in numbers & in complexity, for very little real benefit. Show me a Barbarian who uses this system, & I'll show you a DM who gives up on dealing direct damage, & starts spamming your Will save.