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Zergrusheddie
2009-08-17, 03:36 PM
I have read over and over that the CW Samurai is possibly the worst class every made. Looking at the few things I have read online about it (I do not have CW), I can see that it isn't great but is it really worse than a Commoner or a Monk with poorly rolled stats?

Best of luck y'all.
-Eddie

Yora
2009-08-17, 03:37 PM
Of course it's better than a Commoner and a Warrior. Everything with full BAB is.

It's a fighter with pre-selected fighter feats. And less of them.
You could take levels in fighter and get almost all the benefits of the samurai, but you would still have some extra feats.
That's pretty bad.

Signmaker
2009-08-17, 03:39 PM
It's above NPC classes, but I would personally believe to be below or on par with monk n soulknife. Which isn't a completely horrible thing, as there's ways to trick up anything, it's just that you'll have to expect it to be at most a one-trick pony.

Doc Roc
2009-08-17, 03:40 PM
There are actually a few good builds with it, if you're interested. They're either very specific, involve some pretty serious hax, or absolutely, positively require Ronin. Sometimes all three.

Beyond that, CW samurai is probably my single least favorite base class. I'd rather play an Adept.

Spiryt
2009-08-17, 03:42 PM
Of course it's better than a Commoner and a Warrior. Everything with full BAB is.

Well, actually, if you're going to use the "TWF" of Samurai as it's written, you can actually end worse than Warrior who just grabbed some glaive :smallwink::

Jalor
2009-08-17, 03:44 PM
It's a little weaker than the Monk because you have fewer optimization options. It's basically a Fighter with horrible feat choices, a code of conduct, and one kinda cool ability. Keep in mind how easy it is to drop a Fighter to tier 6 with poor optimization.

Yora
2009-08-17, 03:45 PM
Let's see.

He gets the two-weapon fighting feats, Improved Initiative, and Quick Draw. And he can look at you sternly.

That's ALL the class does.

Magugag
2009-08-17, 03:46 PM
I've always been curious if there was a samurai variant that resolves these issues. Anyone know of one?

quick_comment
2009-08-17, 03:47 PM
If you can convince your GM, the samurai gets magic swords as a class feature.

But its unlikely to happen, and its still not all that great.

kamikasei
2009-08-17, 03:48 PM
I've always been curious if there was a samurai variant that resolves these issues. Anyone know of one?

At the risk of sounding flippant, Warblade and/or Swordsage.

More to the point, what is a "samurai" anyway? In both history and fiction they're too diverse to be represented with a single class and a single type of build.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-17, 03:50 PM
Other than the Oriental Adventures Samurai, I think there's nothing but homebrew.

On that note however, there is some very interesting samurai homebrew out there if you can find it.

Magugag
2009-08-17, 03:50 PM
At the risk of sounding flippant, Warblade and/or Swordsage.

No actually, now that I think, that's exactly the sort of thing I'd be looking for in a reworked samurai, especially since it even has different styles for the characters to train in.

Doc Roc
2009-08-17, 03:52 PM
Yep. That's... pretty much how I feel.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-17, 03:53 PM
Yeah, Tome of Battle sort of rocks at life that way.

quick_comment
2009-08-17, 03:53 PM
Warblade does samurai really, really well. Weapon Aptitude means you can use spears, bows, swords, whatever. You can also rename your maneuvers to be right out of the Book of Five Rings.

Quicksilver Motion--->To Know Collapse

Iron Heart Surge--->To Release Four Hands

Exorcism of Steel--->Fire and Stone Strike

Disarming Strike---->Red Leaves Cut

Punishing Stance--->Strive for Height

Diamond Nightmare Blade---->One Cut


And so on

lsfreak
2009-08-17, 03:53 PM
I've always been curious if there was a samurai variant that resolves these issues. Anyone know of one?

A warblade with a good backstory.

A psychic warrior with a good backstory.

A crusader with a good backstory.

A knight with a good backstory.

(See this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html))

Deepblue706
2009-08-17, 03:56 PM
Samurai does have some good skill choices. If you aim to get into a PrC ASAP (such as into Kensai after Sam5), then it's not too bad a class. But, as most have said already, it's much like a Fighter with no choice of feats - which will make him hard to play at late levels.

It's a special theme-based class you just grab if you roll a ridiculously awesome set of attributes, IMHO

sonofzeal
2009-08-17, 04:06 PM
There are actually a few good builds with it, if you're interested. They're either very specific, involve some pretty serious hax, or absolutely, positively require Ronin. Sometimes all three.

Beyond that, CW samurai is probably my single least favorite base class. I'd rather play an Adept.
I'm interested. I made one of my own a few years ago, a particular trick that Samurais pull off better than anyone else, and I'm curious if anyone else had the same idea. I don't think mine's posted anywhere, but I'll write it up if there's interest.

Dark Herald
2009-08-17, 04:10 PM
He's a fighter that gets 5 bonus feats around his signature set of weapons; suboptimal bonus feats and weapons. Other than that, there's some intimidate abilities that use up a standard action and suck, and there's a smite ability keyed off charisma. A fighter with eleven bonus feats is better, and a paladin is better. It isn't a bad class, but Fighter replicates this class, and without the bad junk. Treat it like a fighter that has several feats pre-decided, without any synergy.

Edit
So much Ninja...

A fighter with fluff would make a fine samurai. or TOB.

Kurald Galain
2009-08-17, 04:28 PM
I have read over and over that the CW Samurai is possibly the worst class every made.

No, it is awesmoe! It toalty lets you filp out an dkill ppl!!! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3660260)

Signmaker
2009-08-17, 04:32 PM
No, it is awesmoe! It toalty lets you filp out an dkill ppl!!! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3660260)

That amused me then, it still amuses me now. :smallsmile:

kamikasei
2009-08-17, 04:34 PM
It isn't a bad class, but Fighter replicates this class, and without the bad junk.

Somehow it seems to me that this sentence ends in a very different place to where it started.

FMArthur
2009-08-17, 05:12 PM
If you need to get Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), then a Samurai dip is superior to Fighter levels if you've already got Fighter levels. Fighter 1 and 2 gets you two consecutive levels of bonus feats, and Samurai 1 can improve that to 3 instead of waiting until Fighter 4. Of course, taking more than that is utterly pointless and detrimental to every possible build without exception. That seems like a good indicator of the power of the class.

Prime32
2009-08-17, 05:33 PM
There are actually a few good builds with it, if you're interested. They're either very specific, involve some pretty serious hax, or absolutely, positively require Ronin. Sometimes all three.I believe there was one which took a single level of samurai, then used bloodlines to increase their effective samurai level (advancing some other class at the same time, of course) before entering ronin.

Thurbane
2009-08-17, 10:30 PM
On a tangent: on paper, the Swashbuckler looks just about as weak as the Samurai to me. Is this true?

Eldariel
2009-08-17, 10:40 PM
On a tangent: on paper, the Swashbuckler looks just about as weak as the Samurai to me. Is this true?

To a degree. Weapon Finesse is far more useful a feat than EWP: Bastard Sword and Insightful Strike is something you'd need to bend over backwards to get otherwise. 4+Int points also makes a solid skill list far more useful especially since you aren't already invested in a specific skill due to class features.

It's still in the lower realms of power, except for one thing: Daring Outlaw [Complete Scoundrel]. This allows you to stack Rogue- and Swashbuckler-levels for Sneak Attack, suddenly making it a very respectable full BAB Two-Weapon Sneak Attacker with Int to damage and Dex to hit and decent skill points (and few random semi-relevant critical-based abilities and the ability to charge across any terrain).


Thanks to that feat, Swashbuckler nowadays acts as the combat-version of Rogue - exactly what it should have been in the first place (I mean, what is a "Swashbuckler" but a flamboyant dirty fighter?.

Doc Roc
2009-08-18, 02:43 AM
Here (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfNDlkdndtY3JmaA&hl=en) is my rough research into the matter. It relies on basically some very crufty cheese with a known problem item, but you could probably actually do it with the retraining rules, depending on your GM's reading. I hope you guys like it. :)

If you can get your GM to allow you to combo-meal Ronin this way with OA samurai, it can also be pretty neat, but whatever. Old research, kinda fruitless, never got used, etc. Hope you find it helpful.

elliott20
2009-08-18, 02:56 AM
The CW samurai is like a friggin' "invoke joke" spell around here.

Doc Roc
2009-08-18, 03:12 AM
Well, up to a point. Click-clack that link in my above post... It's not superb, but it's pretty cool for what it is.

Glimbur
2009-08-18, 09:48 AM
What if you're Gestalting, and you combine Samurai with Rogue? You get tasty TWF as class features, saving you feats, you get better BAB and Hit Die. The intimidate based abilities stretch you too far for which stats you need, but if you ignore them you might as well go fighter so you can TWF with anything you want, like two finessable weapons instead of a Bastard Sword and whatever the wakizashi counts as.

So for a low Dex Rogue//? build, Samurai is good. But why are you playing such a thing?

kamikasei
2009-08-18, 09:50 AM
What if you're Gestalting, and you combine Samurai with Rogue? You get tasty TWF as class features, saving you feats, you get better BAB and Hit Die.

Wouldn't you do about as well with Ranger in place of Samurai?

Glimbur
2009-08-18, 09:55 AM
Wouldn't you do about as well with Ranger in place of Samurai?

Samurai gets you heavier armor than Ranger, which if you're a crazy low dex rogue is nice.

Doc Roc
2009-08-18, 09:58 AM
There is no bloody reason to gestalt with CW samurai ever. No.
No, not then either. My trick can't save samurai.

Gestalt characters are intended to be powerful, not hideously gimped. You might as well just gestalt with Fighter, it covers 95% of the same ground, works as a full-bab lead in to other classes, gains solid feat layout, and is fun to play comparatively.

In short, please, just... stop.

arkol
2009-08-18, 09:58 AM
And a d10.

I think the only real reason to take samurai instead of fighter in gestalt is if you need the TWF tree and don't have the dex for it and for some reason don't wanna take ranger.

Cyclocone
2009-08-18, 09:59 AM
Rangers get Lion's Charge.

Draz74
2009-08-18, 12:17 PM
I think the only real reason to take samurai instead of fighter in gestalt is if you need the TWF tree and don't have the dex for it and for some reason don't wanna take ranger.

As if that situation ever actually happened, the PHBII introduced the feat Agile Shield Fighter to give you yet another way to get around the problem.

So yeah, add in "and you're a katana/wakazashi fanboy who hates shields" to your list of requirements.

Person_Man
2009-08-18, 01:45 PM
Yup, it's garbage. You could fill in its 6 dead levels with Fighter bonus feats and it'd still be a weak-ish class.

Frosty
2009-08-18, 01:52 PM
It's so weak the Adept can beat it!

sonofzeal
2009-08-18, 02:09 PM
Samurai Build:

Human Fighter 2 / Samurai X

Load up on traditional Fighter "Jimmy Feats". You've already got TWF and Quick Draw, so get Combat Expertise, the Weapon Focus tree for both your weapons, Whirlwind Attack (if you can), and Crescent Moon if your DM lets you count your wakizashi for it.

"But Zeal", you might say, "isn't this a sure-fire recipe for disaster?" Well, sorta, but it has its uses. Look up pages 121-122 of CW. Figure out what your Perform: Weapon Drill score is. Optimize your Charisma, get Skill Focus and Leadership (omg more feats), get a Circlet of Persuasion, and check again. Are you hitting 50 or more reliably yet? Now check out this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#perform). Note that there's no limits to how often you can do this, or to how many people it can affect. Put this guy in front of your army (assuming there's armies and not just a couple powerful Wizards duking it out while everyone else hides), and give all hundred thousand soldiers a nice edge over the enemy.

Yes, a Fighter X (and only a Fighter; nobody else gets enough feats) can do this too, but a Fighter X gets practically zero synergy off of Charisma. All that work you did to get this guy's check through the roof make him, if not good, at least decent in combat (bonus points: get an Antimagic Torc or three, and suddenly he's a lot more effective in a fight). He also gets a pretty solid Intimidate Score. With Improved Staredown, he can demoralize twice per turn since he can do it as a move and a standard action, do it against all nearby enemies simultaniously, and can (hopefully reliably) Frighten most enemies that come within 30 feet of him.

End result - Not really effective in most campaigns, honestly. This guy is best served as an NPC, in a campaign where massive armies clash regularly. His entire army becomes stronger, and he can route almost any squad that attacks him singlehandedly. Yes yes a Wizard could just Cloudkill the whole bloody mass of them, but that's not as classy, y'know?

wadledo
2009-08-18, 02:14 PM
Would combining the best features of the two Samurai (CW and OA) make it decent?

Raewyn
2009-08-18, 02:16 PM
Did this thread make anyone else think of this comic?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html

Umael
2009-08-18, 02:24 PM
You know, I know the CW Samurai stinks, but I'm seeing a lot of "it stinks because of the mechanics" and not a lot of the two things I think really should be mentioned (as well).

1) How to fix it.
2) It stinks because of the style.

If I was supposed to use a Samurai, I would use the OA Samurai (or for a slice of lemon better, the Rokugan Samurai). Not as many feats as the Fighter (by just a little), but more skills, and if memory serves me, two good saves instead of just one. You can argue about how much the Fighter really isn't that good of a class or not, but the Fighter and the Samurai are about equal.

A plain Fighter would be better, honestly, although I could see using a Ranger as well. I understand the Swordsage is good too, although I haven't see the class yet.

Oh, as for style.

The CW Samurai stinks!

In Rokugan, you have several different fighting styles, based on the different Clans. Seven Great Clans, seven distinct styles - the only Clan which regularly uses two-weapon fighting is the Dragon Clan. That leaves six different styles of fighting, styles the CW Samurai doesn't even acknowledge as existing.

I'm not saying that you should use OA or Rokugan for your Samurai, but at least give them some style and options!

Kallisti
2009-08-18, 02:30 PM
Would combining the best features of the two Samurai (CW and OA) make it decent?

Possibly. But the CW samurai abilities still suck--you're not fixing thee CW samurai, you're giving the OA samurai some additional abilities.

Eldariel
2009-08-18, 02:44 PM
It's so weak the Adept can beat it!

Isn't that true for most non-casters come mid-levels? I mean, the Adept spell list, when stretching, actually contains a bunch of really, really good spells (Polymorph, anyone? Or Web? Or Baleful Polymorph? Or Heal?).

And yeah, Samurai is a class that has no reason to exist. It's just a Fighter with pre-written fluff and poorly chosen feats. Fighter can do everything Samurai can do, and gives you options while at it. This is assuming you're "Ok"ing Zhentarim Fighter to get class features, of course.

Frosty
2009-08-18, 05:01 PM
Isn't that true for most non-casters come mid-levels? I mean, the Adept spell list, when stretching, actually contains a bunch of really, really good spells (Polymorph, anyone? Or Web? Or Baleful Polymorph? Or Heal?).

And yeah, Samurai is a class that has no reason to exist. It's just a Fighter with pre-written fluff and poorly chosen feats. Fighter can do everything Samurai can do, and gives you options while at it. This is assuming you're "Ok"ing Zhentarim Fighter to get class features, of course.

What non-casters can beat the Adept?

Doc Roc
2009-08-18, 05:08 PM
ToB, and a well-built imperious command+instantaneous rage+intimidating rage barbarian

Teron
2009-08-18, 05:12 PM
And yeah, Samurai is a class that has no reason to exist. It's just a Fighter with pre-written fluff and poorly chosen feats. Fighter can do everything Samurai can do, and gives you options while at it. This is assuming you're "Ok"ing Zhentarim Fighter to get class features, of course.
Indeed. It's not like the soulknife or the monk, which at least have an interesting concept that can't be easily replicated by another class (or couldn't until the swordsage came along, in the monk's case). The samurai is just a badly pre-generated fighter, the sort of crap a terrible DM might try to force you to play.

erikun
2009-08-18, 05:47 PM
Did this thread make anyone else think of this comic?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html
No, but Son of Zeal's build kind of reminded me of this one. :smallbiggrin:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0421.html

Deepblue706
2009-08-18, 06:07 PM
What non-casters can beat the Adept?

Considering the Adept has a fixed spell list and so few castings each day, just about any non-caster can beat an Adept. It's just an Adept can also beat them.

FMArthur
2009-08-18, 07:49 PM
The samurai is unfixable because it has nothing. Nothing of its own. It is a few feats stapled loosely together under some hit dice and BAB. The flavor text doesn't even give any real identity to the class, nothing to separate it from a fighter, a paladin, a barbarian, a crusader, a warblade, a marshal... You can make a "samurai" with any of those classes and probably a fair number of others and still adhere perfectly to the flavor and intent of the CW class. There is nothing it does or is intended to do that most individual warrior-type classes cannot do better on their own.

Zeta Kai
2009-08-18, 08:00 PM
I have read over and over that the CW Samurai is possibly the worst class every made.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. The worst class is the Truenamer. Truenamers are the only class that get worse as they gain levels. Their abilities degrade in usefulness as they progress, until they are essentially Commoners by 20th level. It's sad, really, because their concept is universally thought of as Totally Sweet. The execution is so broken that only crazy optimization along one true build will make truenaming a viable option. Compared to that, the CW Samurai is merely lame.

Yuki Akuma
2009-08-18, 08:02 PM
It's so weak the Adept can beat it!

Adepts are pretty good, though. They get some okay spells.

Although, really, the Adept's best use is to make the Archivist even better, due to getting some spells sooner than other divine classes. And also getting a few arcane spells as divine spells.

Draz74
2009-08-18, 08:04 PM
Wrong, wrong, wrong. The worst class is the Truenamer. Truenamers are the only class that get worse as they gain levels. Their abilities degrade in usefulness as they progress, until they are essentially Commoners by 20th level. It's sad, really, because their concept is universally thought of as Totally Sweet. The execution is so broken that only crazy optimization along one true build will make truenaming a viable option. Compared to that, the CW Samurai is merely lame.

Totally not true. I'd much rather play a Truenamer than a CW Samurai. Much more powerful.

Frosty
2009-08-18, 08:06 PM
Totally not true. I'd much rather play a Truenamer than a CW Samurai. Much more powerful.

In PVP or PVM?

Draz74
2009-08-18, 08:09 PM
In PVP or PVM?

PVM. I'm sure in PVP a Truenamer could get wasted by a properly-optimized, Ubercharging Samurai.

FMArthur
2009-08-19, 01:23 AM
Wrong, wrong, wrong. The worst class is the Truenamer. Truenamers are the only class that get worse as they gain levels. Their abilities degrade in usefulness as they progress, until they are essentially Commoners by 20th level. It's sad, really, because their concept is universally thought of as Totally Sweet. The execution is so broken that only crazy optimization along one true build will make truenaming a viable option. Compared to that, the CW Samurai is merely lame.

The Truenamer has a right to exist, which is more than anyone can say for the Samurai. Its abilities are merely a subset of certain previously existing classes'! Several classes do everything the samurai does and are fully compatible with the concept fluff-wise, too!