[3.5] Help! Help! I'm being put through the Tomb of Horror....

[gibbo88]

...and I need suggestions for items for a level 10 druid. I have the standard WBL and definitely need to have some form of healing handy. All the books are available, as far as I can tell. No spoilers, please! I want to feel the terror. :smalltongue:

Thanks all!

[Ripped Shirt Kirk]

You have no chance of survival.

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc161/RasenganShinboi/RiflesMotivationalPoster.jpg


Your gonna need one of those.

[kamikasei]

As many backup masterwork sheets of character as you can carry.

Seriously though? The two obvious items are a) a healing belt (MIC) and b) wilding clasps for it and the rest of your gear (also MIC).

You might also get some use out of the telescoping eleven-foot pole from Dungeonscape.

[Eloel]

Nothing. Give them off all to a charity or something. And go VoP.

Mockery aside, you want some Con & Wis increasing amulet (MIC has rules for non-increased price), with wildling clasp (MIC again.). You also want a Dragonhide Full-Plate with Wild enchantment and any other enchantment you want. Monk's Belt w/ wildling clasp is also a goody, Wis to AC is nice to have on a Druid.
(And you keep the bonus since the Full-Plate melded into your new form and is just not there anymore)
PS: Get the full-plate off when not WS'd, it hurts too many things when not melded in. Or as another controversial alternative, buy the Dragonhide Full-Plate barding fit for some tiny bird, WS into that, wear the barding, and go back to your human form. You now have all benefits of the armor, but you don't have the armor till you WS back into that precise bird (Even if you WS into, say, a dinosaur, you still keep the bonuses from the armor).

I guess you don't need help on feats, but Natural Spell and Natural Bond are a must, just so you know. (Natural Bond to make Fleshraker get FULL benefit from Druid levels...)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Summon Elemental reserve feat for trapfinding.

[PinkysBrain]

Amulet of Second Chances I guess, but it's cheesy as hell.

[Jayngfet]

A hand of the mage is a good item, 900gp and you never have to touch an item under five pounds again.

Another good item is a wand of summon monster. That way you have someone to walk ahead and spring any traps you can't find.

[Lord Loss]

The Something (Amulet, I think?) of Nine lives. Useful against anything that deals damage.

[Jalor]

Amulet of Second Chances. CL 8 Eternal Wand of Rope Trick. Several Belts of Healing. A Wilding Clasp for each vital gear slot. Wands of Summon Monster I to spring traps with celestial monkeys.

[Jack_Simth]

The Disassembler Druid (many people hate this concept; you have been warned; do note that the original was listed as the Trapsmith Wizard):

You need:
1) The Summon Elemental Reserve Feat (Complete Mage), or some other way of having a neigh-infinite supply of disposable creatures.
2) Fiery Burst (Complete Mage, you may also need Heighten Spell to make best effect of this), or another way to deal damage to objects at range essentially at whim.
3) Two or three wands of Detect Magic (Core) (note: If you were playing a Cleric, I'd put "the Magic Sensitive Reserve Feat (Complete Mage)" here; if you were a Wizard, I'd put "Detect Magic and Permanency" here; if you were a Sorcerer, I'd put "Arcane Sight" here; and so on. Basically, you just need a way to detect magical stuff all day long).
4) A way to survive without air (a Bottle of Air (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bottleofAir), the right Ioun Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#iounStones), or a Necklace of Adaptation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#necklaceofAdaptation) are all Core).
5) A portable Hole
6) Languages to talk to everything you'll be summoning up.
7) A few Meatshields fellow party members to deal with the overpowered monsters in the module.
8) A rational dose of paranoia

How it works:
A) Use Item 1 to send a critter (preferably several) well in advance of yourself along your intended course of travel, and watch what happens to them. For the Summon Elemental Reserve feat, you can summon at a range of 30 feet, and they get a double-move in away from you before they vanish on their own - so up to 230 feet of warning using an Air elemental, 70 using an Earth elemental (more on both if they're permitted to Run). If anything kills the critter, send a few more until you find out what exactly killed it, and then destroy the thing that killed it by way of a direct-damage effect from Item 2.
B) Check for magic along your intended path of travel with item 3 above. If you see anything magical that doesn't look like loot, destroy it. If you see anything magical that looks portable (and does not look like a container - containers you destroy), open up your portable hole (item 5), and have a critter (Item 1) put the loot into the portable hole.
C) If anything needs manipulating, you use item 6 to talk a critter from item 1 through doing it. You do not manipulate anything from the Tomb directly until after you're well away from the Tomb and have fully identified everything with Analyze Dweomer.
D) If it's a door, demolish it with item 2.
E) If you think you need to go through it and you can't see what's on the other side, demolish it. Never go anywhere you can't see.
F) Take a five-foot step forward. You do not move one iota until you reach this step.
G) Goto A until you encounter a critter you didn't bring in.
H) Have your Meatshields fellow party members deal with the critter (you can help).
I) Goto A until you're out of the Dungeon.

[Fitz]

check out the munchkin players guide ? ;-)

seriously useful feats in there ;-)

Fitz

[Blackfang108]

Amulet of Second Chances I guess, but it's cheesy as hell.

No, Acerarck's Tomb is cheesy as hell.

[Mr.Bookworm]

...and I need suggestions for items for a level 10 druid. I have the standard WBL and definitely need to have some form of healing handy. All the books are available, as far as I can tell. No spoilers, please! I want to feel the terror. :smalltongue:

Thanks all!

I'm not spoiling anything when I say use the *bleep* out of Summon Nature's Ally. If anything looks suspicious or non-suspicious, summon up a monkey and have it poke it a few times.

Once you turn level eleven, make sure you go into Hawk/Owl/Otherflyingform 24/7. You never want to be touching the ground.

Also remember that you're immune to poison. That might come in handy.

[Myou]

I suggest not getting too attached.

[Optimystik]

The Disassembler Druid

Listen to this man!

[chiasaur11]

No, Acerarck's Tomb is cheesy as hell.

Too true.

The Chicago Way rules apply here.

So very much.

[Blackfang108]

Too true.

The Chicago Way rules apply here.

So very much.

OK, I'm from Chicago and have no idea what you're...

Wait...

Nevermind. YES. It does.

...Man, I'm more sleep deprived than I thought.

[Doc Roc]

Amulet of Second Chances I guess, but it's cheesy as hell.

ONCE MORE WITH FEELING!
Search that on gleemax. It's a thread about the amulet, basically focusing on the fact that it has no resource consumption clause.

Some interesting notes: The disassembler druid\wizard can actually get you killed in the Tomb of Horrors, depending on how the GM handles things. I would be very careful what you aim your direct damage at. There are actually four categories in the Tomb of horrors:

Loot
Macguffins
Macguffins that will kill you
Other things that will kill you.

The real issue is distinguishing between 2 and 3.

[PinkysBrain]

Why would you waste summons on traps?

A CL1 wand of unseen servant is a much better trap detector than summons ... sure you need more than 1 because they don't weigh much, but at 1 hour per level they are far more economic.

[Optimystik]

Why would you waste summons on traps?

A CL1 wand of unseen servant is a much better trap detector than summons ... sure you need more than 1 because they don't weigh much, but at 1 hour per level they are far more economic.

It's a reserve feat, so the builds jack posted have an unlimited supply. Furthermore, the different elementals are quite useful in the dungeon (such as earth elementals being able to glide through walls and report what they see.)

I don't think unseen servant can communicate with you either, making it useless for scouting except by dying.

[Scarlet Tropix]

I remember running Tomb of Horrors. It is a dungeon filled with hate and death.

...Bring a 10ft pole.

In all seriousness though, you should think about ways to examine things without entering/touching/looking at them. Any sort of Telekinesis would probably be helpful for that.

[woodenbandman]

I suggest that you try to solve it in conventional ways. Don't get too creative. That is all.

[Kylarra]

I suggest that you try to solve it in conventional ways. Don't get too creative. That is all.
Conventional trial and error in ToH means endless respawns.

[Optimystik]

I suggest that you try to solve it in conventional ways. Don't get too creative. That is all.

You must be his DM :smalltongue:

[Kallisti]

Summon Elemental reserve feat for trapfinding.

Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. NEVER touch it yourself. NEVER!

I playes through a watered-down tomb of horrors once, and it was terrible in the extreme.

If you don't know what it does, have elementals examine it before you get anywhere near it.

Use Detect Magic. If it's magical, have elementals examine it before you go anywhere near it.

If it's in the freakin' Tomb of Horrors have elementals examine it before you go anywhere near it.

Buy an Amulet of Second Chances. If something goes wrong, you can zap back six seconds and fix it.

Get Rope Trick. Trust me on that.

Be paranoid. Very paranoid. Extremely paranoid...

[JeenLeen]

You or someone should get a Wand of Detect Secret Doors. That spell is insanely broken for this dungeon. I forget if Druids can use that, but try to convince another caster.

Don't touch anything. Assume everything is trapped.

But, honestly, at level 10, I don't think it should be so hard. I ran it (maybe a bit too softly, I admit) for a level 6 group of six characters and they did fine. I admit they were insanely optimized.

[Lord Loss]

Is the 3.5 TOH as lethal as the old one?

[Eldariel]

Is the 3.5 TOH as lethal as the old one?

Due to the existence of skill system and reserve feats, no. In the old one, you had to figure everything out on the fly while being raped horribly in so many ways that every mundane activity suddenly becomes a fight for your life - kinda like playing CoC with a really sadistic DM, or playing Paranoia with the goal of never dying.

In 3.5, for the simple reason that some things HAVE DCs, you can do things not possible in the old one; disarming traps, opening locks and such has no place in ToH, let alone using elementals to trigger traps (though for that, I'd personally just rewrite some traps to make triggering certain traps a V. Horrible idea). Indeed, you really reach the feeling of the old ToH only by removing every way to boost skills in the game and going Core-only. Mind you, extremely savvy (genius-level) players between Lady Luck's legs may still win out, but that's a combination of extreme smarts and extreme luck.

[Zergrusheddie]

The Reserve Feat to summon elementals is really cheesy. The DM might simply just go "NO!" because it basically allows you to bypass most traps in the ToH and all traps outside of ToH. If the DM allows it, then it would be extremely helpful but I don't think it could get through without the DM watering down the ToH.

As a Druid, you won't really be doing much. As anything other than a Beguiler, Rogue, or something with a ridiculously high Search and Disable Device, you won't be doing anything. I ran through the 3.5 ToH as a Beguiler with 2 other people. We survived barely but it was only because I was searching every 5 feet for traps and we got extremely lucky in going straight to the end without going through some of the other deadly traps. If possible, EVERYONE in the group needs to be Flying or Spider Climbing on the ceiling because there are plenty of traps that are just "The Floor opens, no Save, no Search check, no Disable Device, just take 5d6 every round."

When we did the ToH, the other players more or less looked at me as I rolled a D20 a hundred times to disable or bypass the traps. Be weary though; there are still plenty of "No Save, no Search check, just take 20d20 damage." At level 10, that's more or less "No Save, just Die." Basically, the only way to beat the ToH is with a watered down version/a DM that doesn't want to kill everyone in the ToH. One thing the DM might allow you to use are these things called "Saves."

Best of luck...
-Eddie

[Jack_Simth]

Why would you waste summons on traps?

A CL1 wand of unseen servant is a much better trap detector than summons ... sure you need more than 1 because they don't weigh much, but at 1 hour per level they are far more economic.
Several reasons:
1) The Summon Elemental Reserve Feat doesn't get "Used up" - as long as you don't cast the actual spell that's powering it (Summon Nature's Ally IV, for this particular case), you can invoke it every round all day without issue.
2) A Druid doesn't have easy access to Unseen Servant.
3) In The Tomb of Horrors, you can rest whenever you like (explicitly, in the module), so burning ten spells to get past one trap? Not an issue.
4) An Unseen Servant from a CL 1 wand can only be 25 feet from you. That's too short. An actual summon can go a very long ways (a speed-20 monster at a caster level of 10 can double-move to get 400 feet or so from you along an arbitrary path; it can run to get 800 along a straight path), and the Summon Elemental Reserve Feat will get you a respectable distance (up to 230 feet along an arbitrary path; 430 along a straight path).
5) An Unseen Servant is not technically a creature, so if you've got a trap that triggers on creatures that go by, the Unseen Servant won't set it off. The Summon Will.

There's more, and 2-4 only apply to the OP's specific scenario, but that should be sufficient, no?



Some interesting notes: The disassembler druid\wizard can actually get you killed in the Tomb of Horrors, depending on how the GM handles things. I would be very careful what you aim your direct damage at. There are actually four categories in the Tomb of horrors:

Loot
Macguffins
Macguffins that will kill you
Other things that will kill you.

The real issue is distinguishing between 2 and 3.
The Maguffins aren't actually necessary if your meatshields Fellow Party Members put as much into combat optimization as you do to de-trapping optimization. Likewise, the doors are quite openable without the key, thanks to HP of objects.

[Yuki Akuma]

Find new friends who won't send you through the Tomb of Horrors.

I'm only half-joking.

[Frosty]

I haven't been through the ToH before, but WHY do you want to even touch the ceiling? From the level of horror I've heard, you should all have ways to fly and hover permanently (Raptoran helps). Having a Wizard or Sorcerer in your party take Vatic Gaze (from PHB2) so they can Detect Magic at-will is extremely helpful.

And yeah, not needing to breathe helps (be a Warforged?) and I'm guessing to escape certain death from certain traps, having an item that'll cast Gaseous Form on you will also help.

Seriously. Have the entire party be Raptoran or Warforged. Having as much immunities and touching as little as possible will get you through this. Also having ways of teleporting short distances infinitely. Swordsage might help. Dimensional Jaunt reserve feat might also help.

[Yuki Akuma]

Raptorans can't fly indefinitely. Neither can they hover without feats.

Best bet? Everyone be a Warforged and get the wizard to chain a Fly spell.

[Frosty]

Raptorans can't fly indefinitely. Neither can they hover without feats.

Best bet? Everyone be a Warforged and get the wizard to chain a Fly spell.

Of course they can fly indefinitely. Once they hit level 10. Just take Improved Flight or Hover and you're good.

[quick_comment]

Use the psicrystal savegame mechanic.

[Jack_Simth]

Having a Wizard or Sorcerer in your party take Vatic Gaze (from PHB2) so they can Detect Magic at-will is extremely helpful.
Detect Magic + Permanency only costs 500 xp, does the same thing (until it gets dispelled, at least), but doesn't cost the feat slot.

[tiercel]

First of all, buy your DM a pizza for not running you through the original Tomb of Horrors. It would just kill you in insane ways you had pretty much no way of reasonably forseeing from a player's perspective. There is a reason ToH has its reputation, after all -- it was essentially impossible to win the original module without player foreknowledge/DM collusion. (And even then....)

3.5 version is nasty still, but at least you have a *chance* to avoid most things (either because of hints/the twisted logic of the Tomb in view, or at least a roll to Search/save against a trap or effect).

Having (and using, in paranoid fashion) the elemental summoning feat half breaks the ToH all by itself, just because it is infinitely repeatable. Granted, you could accomplish much the same thing with one or more bags of tricks and/or a LOT of spontaneous summoning combined with a lot of resting, but infinite elemental summoning just makes things... well... kind of TOO easy. Your DM may not (and, in all fairness, probably should not) allow the elemental summoning feat, particularly for this adventure.

You may also want to take into consideration how... creative... your DM has been in the past when running pre-made modules. If he is a "by the book" kinda guy you can game the module a lot harder (even without specific spoilers) than if he tends to... tweak certain things to make the module his own. For instance, if *I* were the DM, there would be... consequences... for too much resting. Any purely static challenge can eventually be overcome with enough paranoia and/or warm bodies, given enough time.

That and, as much as it pays to be paranoid, will it be much of a fun game if it takes you 30 minutes of game time to advance every 5 feet? At some point you've passed from "clever" through "cheesy" into "tedious," and you would have more fun just plotting to destroy the entire Tomb from the outside.

[Frosty]

That and, as much as it pays to be paranoid, will it be much of a fun game if it takes you 30 minutes of game time to advance every 5 feet? At some point you've passed from "clever" through "cheesy" into "tedious," and you would have more fun just plotting to destroy the entire Tomb from the outside.

Why not? That'd be a fun adventure too. Make the darned BBEG come to YOU if it wants to survive.

The Warlock and the Warblade can Eldritch Blast and Mountain Hammer the place all day long.

Enough Earthquake spells might disrupt a lot of the trap mechanisms inside. I'm sure Stone to Mud can also help.

[Civil War Man]

My suggestion for defeating Tomb of Horrors:

Pun-Pun's a Druid in at least some of his builds.

[Jack Zander]

There is only one thing you need. Some way to become ethereal and walk through all the walls.

Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

[PinkysBrain]

You could first map the entire dungeon from above ground using earth elementals, telepathic contact and some graph paper.

[ericgrau]

I think expendable summons to get hurt before you do and a good list of mobility & utility animal forms would be best for a druid in Tomb of Horrors. Scrolls with utility spells for a death trap labyrinth would be handy too. Like Know Direction, Spider Climb, etc.

[Seffbasilisk]

I've run Tomb of Horrors. I do not suggest going ethereal, teleporting, or anything similar.

I do suggest:
Amulet of second chances (as many as you can)
Mask of Sweet Air
Something to touch things instead of you, preferrably something disposable.
Keeping your distance from all walls, letting the rogue always go first...
Knowledge Arcana checks whenever you can.
Search/Spot/Listen. Max'm out. Do not sleep if you can avoid it.
Bring meatshields.

[Doc Roc]

Teleporting is technically okay, but potentially still a bad plan. In a normal dungeon situation, the lyre of building is my go to option, but I seem to remember that basically gets you auto-murder-boated in ToH.

[HamHam]

There is only one thing you need. Some way to become ethereal and walk through all the walls.

Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

I see what you did there. :smallamused:

[tiercel]

Why not? That'd be a fun adventure too. Make the darned BBEG come to YOU if it wants to survive.

Oh I'm not disputing it -- in fact, my point is that I think that destroying the Tomb of Horrors from without would probably be more fun than going through it in 100% Pure Full Paranoia Total Risk Avoidance Mode.

A little paranoia is healthy (even required) to get through ToH -- but we are talking about the 3.5 version, not the original. Slow down gameplay too much and you might as well not even be playing a game any more.

[Myshlaevsky]

I see what you did there. :smallamused:

Yes, he offered some excellent and hithero unmentioned advice, huh? Boy, I sure wish I was given advice that helpful sometimes. You should go for it 100%!

[aje8]

The Reserve Feat to summon elementals is really cheesy. The DM might simply just go "NO!" because it basically allows you to bypass most traps in the ToH and all traps outside of ToH. If the DM allows it, then it would be extremely helpful but I don't think it could get through without the DM watering down the ToH.
I disagree to those posters who object to said feat.

Is it extremely effective in this particular module? Yes. Is it overpowered in general? No. Is it perfect for this situation? Yes.

But honestly, if the ToH is as difficult as you all Tomb vetrans say it is, then the PCs will NEED an ace in the hole such as the summon elemental reserve feat just to get through. It thus doesn't seem like a stretch to give them access to said ace right? That might make the tomb a reasonable level of difficulty. You know from Ridiculous to just Difficult which seems fine IMO.

However, I haven't actually played through the Tomb, my experience is purley second-hand so I could be missing something.

[Mystic Muse]

don't go near weird looking kids in the TOH

don't go near normal looking kids in the TOH

especially ones asking if you've seen their mommy

don't go near old folks in the TOH

don't go near solitary corpses in the TOH

look. just don't go in the TOH

[tiercel]

I disagree to those posters who object to said feat.


Well.. it's a matter of playstyle. The feat isn't intrinsically broken in general play (though it does make DMs have to reconsider most traps to make rogue trapfinding a relevant skill), but in this module?

It's well known that ToH is a "traps module" mostly. Part of the fun is being careful and clever enough to find the traps, and find the ways to get through the locked/hidden doors.

If you just overwhelm the traps with brute-force endless waves of sacrificial bodies and destroying every obstacle with arbitrary spamming of infinite-use damage-dealing, you are kind of removing the point of going through much of the module at all.

Besides, aren't there *any* RP consequences by continuously summoning creatures into nigh-certain death situations? It's one thing to have your earth elemental peek into an unknown area or a fire elemental flank a much more dangerous foe, and quite another to summon up a little guy just so you can say "hey you, go get yourself killed over there so I can see what kills you, 'cos I'm too lazy to look for myself or figure out any potential clues" -- and to do it over, and over, and over, and over again. I'd at least think that druids might have Code of Conduct issues or many clerics' deities/philosophies having some form of problem with this kind of callous tactic.

That's just me, at least... the game mechanic is optimal for this kind of task, but D&D games I've been in aren't just interactions of game mechanics, there is the RP in the RPG as well.

[Milskidasith]

Considering elementals and other summoned things just get warped back to their plane when they die (I think) I wouldn't see any problem with it.

[quick_comment]

The problem is that ToH needs to be updated if you are playing with splatbooks.

You can negate elemental summons by having corrupt summon fields all over the place. Elementals arent evil, so if they are summoned inside one of these fields, they attack the summoner.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

To those saying that Summon Elemental is against the spirit of the ToH, Gaygax said that the way his group beat it was sending all of the minions, slaves, and mules through first and watching how they died.

[HamHam]

Well.. it's a matter of playstyle. The feat isn't intrinsically broken in general play (though it does make DMs have to reconsider most traps to make rogue trapfinding a relevant skill), but in this module?

It's well known that ToH is a "traps module" mostly. Part of the fun is being careful and clever enough to find the traps, and find the ways to get through the locked/hidden doors.

If you just overwhelm the traps with brute-force endless waves of sacrificial bodies and destroying every obstacle with arbitrary spamming of infinite-use damage-dealing, you are kind of removing the point of going through much of the module at all.

Besides, aren't there *any* RP consequences by continuously summoning creatures into nigh-certain death situations? It's one thing to have your earth elemental peek into an unknown area or a fire elemental flank a much more dangerous foe, and quite another to summon up a little guy just so you can say "hey you, go get yourself killed over there so I can see what kills you, 'cos I'm too lazy to look for myself or figure out any potential clues" -- and to do it over, and over, and over, and over again. I'd at least think that druids might have Code of Conduct issues or many clerics' deities/philosophies having some form of problem with this kind of callous tactic.

That's just me, at least... the game mechanic is optimal for this kind of task, but D&D games I've been in aren't just interactions of game mechanics, there is the RP in the RPG as well.

We only ever got through maybe the first level of ToH when I ran it one time, but I can think of several traps where summoning an elemental will not help.

[Jack_Simth]

But honestly, if the ToH is as difficult as you all Tomb vetrans say it is
The 3.5 version simultaneously is and isn't as difficult as it says it is.

See, The Tomb is the same two things over & over again (with a lot of variations, granted, but there's basically two things there, just repeated), with a small sprinkling of other things (seriously, there's something like a hundred or more encounters, and maybe half a dozen monsters in that ... although the monsters are mostly under CR'd initially, and then above the recommended CR for the level of the module to boot. I'm ignoring them here, beyond the note of bringing meatshields fellow party members to deal with them).

What are those two things? Lethal puzzles and semi-standard traps.

The semi-standard traps can be dealt with by a decent rogue investing in Search/Disable Device. Two declairations of "I take ten" by the right character build, and they're ignored. That basically leaves the lethal puzzles as part of the module.

Puzzles in a multiplayer cooperative game, though, have a problem: they're only fun if you meet all of the following criteria:
1) You enjoy tricky puzzles.
2) You are sufficiently in-tune with the puzzle-maker that you'll eventually get the puzzle.
3) You are not so in-tune with the puzzle-maker that you instantly get the puzzle.

The Tomb recommends 4-6 players at the table, plus the DM. The probability that someone will hate the puzzles is very, very high. For the most part, those playing the Tomb are:
a) of a different generation than the puzzle-maker
b) gave a wildly different background than the puzzle designer
c) Have never met the puzzle designer
... so there's little chance of them meeting criteria 2. This generally makes the lethal puzzles lethal and mostly-unsolvable.

So a great many of those who play the Tomb are killed by the lethal traps due to failing criteria 2. You'll also get a smattering of individuals who violate criteria 3, and waltz through it, wondering what the big deal is. You'll only rarely run across someone who meets all three criteria and actually enjoys The Tomb.

The Disassembler Druid (or the Trapsmith Wizard, or any number of variations), have a trick that deals with the puzzles and traps, pretty much without fail. But it breaks the tomb because, when it comes down to it, the Tomb is a pretty much a one-trick pony - in that regard, it's poorly designed (as over 90% of it is taken out by the same counter-trick, which wouldn't really hurt that much in a "normal" dungeon with a nice assortment of monsters of varying styles, traps, and obstacles).

The DD is cheesy in that he's got a trick he can spam over and over that negates over 90% of The Tomb of Horrors. But when it comes down to it, the DD really only serves to point out that The Tomb is poorly designed.

We only ever got through maybe the first level of ToH when I ran it one time, but I can think of several traps where summoning an elemental will not help.
That's mostly because you're not doing it quite right. Simply summoning an elemental won't, in and of itself, help. It's sending it very far in advance, over every planned course of travel, that does. And you'll still hit one or two... but that's the reason the Disassembler Druid includes the "survive without air" bit.

[Frosty]

How would you re-design the ToH to make it less stupid, a lot of fun, AND challenging in 3.5 to the players while keeping the atmosphere of "OH MY GOD I'M GONNA DIE!!!!" intact?

[HamHam]

That's mostly because you're not doing it quite right. Simply summoning an elemental won't, in and of itself, help. It's sending it very far in advance, over every planned course of travel, that does. And you'll still hit one or two... but that's the reason the Disassembler Druid includes the "survive without air" bit.

SPOILERS:

The two I'm thinking off right now are the Sphere of Annihilation and the doorway that flips something (alignment? gender?) and eventually teleports you outside minus your gear. Sending the elemental into either trap will not actually tell you anything you didn't already know. So either you are dumb/crazy enough to walk into them, or you aren't.

[Jack_Simth]

How would you re-design the ToH to make it less stupid, a lot of fun, AND challenging in 3.5 to the players while keeping the atmosphere of "OH MY GOD I'M GONNA DIE!!!!" intact?
Replace much of the traps and puzzles with the evil outsiders (I can never remember if it's demons or devils...) that maintain the place in the first place, and cut down on how often you can rest. Serves a couple of functions:

1) Monsters abound, so trapsmiths aren't the only ones who participate.
2) If you do get stuck, the monsters populating the place are also the monsters who build and maintain the puzzles and traps... which means that you could, potentially, dominate/bully/trick/befriend/pay one such that they'll tell you about a few of them, and how to get around them.

Then the "I'M GONNA DIE!!!" feeling just comes from flavortext, and balancing the CR well enough that most of the encounters have a significant element of risk to them.


SPOILERS:

The two I'm thinking off right now are the Sphere of Annihilation and the doorway that flips something (alignment? gender?) and eventually teleports you outside minus your gear. Sending the elemental into either trap will not actually tell you anything you didn't already know. So either you are dumb/crazy enough to walk into them, or you aren't.
It trips both alignment and gender, actually. But the trapsmith handles those by paranoia. He doesn't understand them, and they're not mobile loot, so he demolishes them. Alternately, he orders the elemental to keep hitting buttons until it goes away. Seriously, in a place full of traps, what kind of idiot goes through something where he can't tell what the results will be? A mist covered entrance that conceals all on the other side, or a black void?

[Kallisti]

Well.. it's a matter of playstyle. The feat isn't intrinsically broken in general play (though it does make DMs have to reconsider most traps to make rogue trapfinding a relevant skill), but in this module?

It's well known that ToH is a "traps module" mostly. Part of the fun is being careful and clever enough to find the traps, and find the ways to get through the locked/hidden doors.

If you just overwhelm the traps with brute-force endless waves of sacrificial bodies and destroying every obstacle with arbitrary spamming of infinite-use damage-dealing, you are kind of removing the point of going through much of the module at all.

Besides, aren't there *any* RP consequences by continuously summoning creatures into nigh-certain death situations? It's one thing to have your earth elemental peek into an unknown area or a fire elemental flank a much more dangerous foe, and quite another to summon up a little guy just so you can say "hey you, go get yourself killed over there so I can see what kills you, 'cos I'm too lazy to look for myself or figure out any potential clues" -- and to do it over, and over, and over, and over again. I'd at least think that druids might have Code of Conduct issues or many clerics' deities/philosophies having some form of problem with this kind of callous tactic.

That's just me, at least... the game mechanic is optimal for this kind of task, but D&D games I've been in aren't just interactions of game mechanics, there is the RP in the RPG as well.

True about it breaking the tomb, though I agree with Jack Smith that that's more a problem of the tomb than the druid, but the OP did ask for survival advice...

If you want a less cheesy method, find a way for your rogue to search for traps at a distance. But really, an intelligent magic item that can Dimension Door you, an Amulet of Second Chances, and something that casts Rope Trick indefinitely gives you enough insurance you'll survive a mistake to let the rogue handle it, instead of demolishing the dungeon. If you screw up and set off the trap, the party member who survives uses his Amulet of Second Chances to back time up six seconds, to before the deathtrap went off, and people avoid setting it off, or Dim Door away if they can't. Once you're out of amulets, rest in the Rope Trick to recharge them, and off you go.

[HamHam]

It trips both alignment and gender, actually. But the trapsmith handles those by paranoia. He doesn't understand them, and they're not mobile loot, so he demolishes them. Alternately, he orders the elemental to keep hitting buttons until it goes away. Seriously, in a place full of traps, what kind of idiot goes through something where he can't tell what the results will be? A mist covered entrance that conceals all on the other side, or a black void?

One of my players totally did. Also, there's no way to deactivate either AFAIK. Or destroy them (at least you shouldn't be able to destroy them).

My point is that the summon elemental reserve feat doesn't do anything in this situation that a Rogue and summon spells couldn't already do. Except maybe being able to communicate with the thing... but a bag of tricks and a druid who can talk to animals can do that too.

[Jack_Simth]

One of my players totally did. Also, there's no way to deactivate either AFAIK. Or destroy them (at least you shouldn't be able to destroy them).

Then the elementals give you enough info to know that you can pass beside them safely, and you follow up by demolishing the wall around it or simply bypassing it. Regardless, it's neutralized.

And seriously - the player didn't get the whole "deathtrap" thing.



My point is that the summon elemental reserve feat doesn't do anything in this situation that a Rogue and summon spells couldn't already do. Except maybe being able to communicate with the thing... but a bag of tricks and a druid who can talk to animals can do that too.
Granted. There's a Core trapsmith Wizard/Sorcerer build for level 1, as well. Lots of mundane sacks, a pick and shovel to make rocks out of walls, and lots of castings of Detect Magic and Unseen Servant, resting often. It's just not quite as effective or fast as the Reserve Feats are. Yet it's fundamentally the same method - disposable minion trapspringers.

[DMOffgood]

Personally, I'm running a 3.5 TOH game now that starts with a nightmare in which the party see their loved ones stolen in the night and their souls trapped in soul gems. Acererack has watched my group's progress and has created the tomb as a test of their mettle, a dare and an invitation to destruction.

The tomb has been modified a bit to try and encourage thoughtful play a bit more. It's also been personalized with images and homages to villains from past adventures, and a few new riddles. I'm trying to put in a few macguffins to entertain the other classes so they're not idle.

I'm also peppering the dungeon with the corpses of the previous adventurers to try and get through the tomb, who happen to be the 3.5 builds Wizards made of the cartoon series main characters. Their weapons are lootable and modified slightly to help in the tomb, and redeemable for a sidequest.

If they sell the items, the dealer turns into the Venger demon from the series and leaves my heroes with glammered gold that is really worthless. If they turn them over to the gnome who calls himself 'Dungeon Master' (whose soul is trapped along with my players' loved ones) they are rewarded a very helpful adult Unicorn, a free feat and the ability to make an attribute adjustment.

The cartoon stuff is just a wink though, and has no affect on the tomb overall, though I am making one of the characters an undead villain who needs to be put down. Open to suggestions on who. :)

I'm not a hateful DM, I don't try to kill my players. But when a Druid is that powerful I agree that it makes the tomb a boring walk through.

Personally, I'm going to have Acererack handle this by enchanting most rooms so that any celestial summons called will have a high percentage of manifesting as chaotic. That should prove interesting.

I'll allow shape-shifting, and I also think I will allow celestial summoning in the (SEMI-SPOILER) one room that has always radiated with good alignment.

If anyone else has suggestions on curbing but not entirely negating such abilities, please share.

I'm not looking to make a Druid feel less powerful, nor would I prevent my party from finding creative roleplaying ways to find 'cattle' to run through the tomb if that's what they really wanted.

But "I summon thirty monkeys to touch everything" every damn round?

Druid, please.