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Brauron
2009-08-18, 07:22 AM
So I realized last night that I've given my players faaaar too much loot. Through a combination of loot and poor initiative and fortitude rolls on my part, my party of four level 4s destroyed two level 6 NPC villains in a single round of combat -- and we don't even have a "real" spellcaster in the party.

So I think I need to run some low-treasure adventures for a while to rebalance things a bit.

Any ideas of good low-treasure adventures?

rezplz
2009-08-18, 07:23 AM
Rust monsters. Not sure if they give treasure or not, but they might take away some of their toys. :)

Nature-themed adventures. Dire bears don't keep coins around.

Cyrion
2009-08-18, 09:04 AM
How about some political or social chicanery? The rewards for those could be monetarily small but have rewards in the form of status, prestige, etc. Maybe something like they have to escort a small (but very annoying, naturally) child from one city to the next (meeting above said dire bears perhaps), unwittingly furthering the political plans of the local high priest but foiling the schemes of the competing sorcerer.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-18, 09:29 AM
What are their character's long-term goals? If one of them wants to become ennobled or found a villiage or something, getting started on that path could be expensive but cool.

Myou
2009-08-18, 09:34 AM
In my games the players are lucky if they get anything but xp for beating most foes, treasure only comes when it makes sense - you storm a castle, there ought to be treasure in there, you kill some NPCs, you get nothing but the few coins they carry.

If the NPCs need loot to be effective then just ignore that and run them as if they have loot when they don't. You're the DM. And if the players complain that the NPCs should be dropping loot given their abilities then tell them to stop metagaming.

Lapak
2009-08-18, 09:41 AM
For the hack-and-slash type of PCs, dinosaurs!. Dinosaurs are nasty opponents that don't tend to carry treasure around. If they are wilderness explorers, have them stumble into a Lost World cavern while dungeon-diving with no way to easily turn around and leave. If they are in a very urban environment you can take a page from an old issue of Dragon - there was an introductory adventure published where a mage had imported some dinosaur eggs but then let the hatchlings escape into the sewers. Kind of like the legends about giant crocodiles in New York sewers, the hatchlings are getting dangerously big and the city could hire the PCs to clear them out. Old sewer systems are an excellent place to put monster who either have no treasure or have treasure that the PCs won't want to collect.

For the social-intrigue type of PCs, The Treasure That Isn't There. Get them involved in a plot surrounding one of the most important, wealthy, influential merchants around. He hires them to protect him from unscrupulous rivals, but the things they are guarding get snagged anyway - they are attacked by undead only to find the loot gone when they down the last one, they watch a caravan and never let it out of their sight only to find that a strongbox is empty on the other end, and clues seem to point to one particular rival merchant. The problem is that all of it is being engineered by their employer, whose business is collapsing. He hopes to pin his woes on an enemy and have the PCs 'recover his stolen goods' before taking the fall. There's no legitimate treasure to be had; their employer has no goods except those he has borrowed against.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-18, 09:43 AM
{Scrubbed}

Glimbur
2009-08-18, 09:43 AM
Oozes. There are oozes dropping from the sky, why is that? After they fight a few (easy to do outside), they have to track down the source.

a) Goblins with a catapult who decided to use their ooze infestation to soften up towns before attacking.

b) A wizard did it. The same wizard is now increasing the speed on oozes so they're a threat.

c) They're fleeing from a floating ancient sky-city which is going to crash.

d) Dragons?

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-18, 09:45 AM
{Scrubbed}

That doesn't happen in 4e, to my knowledge. I agree, having magical loot on the NPC that they use disappear when the PC's kill them is dodgy.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-18, 09:47 AM
That doesn't happen in 4e, to my knowledge. I agree, having magical loot on the NPC that they use disappear when the PC's kill them is dodgy.IIRC, Drow and similar monsters get a +1 awesome bonus when using weapons that doesn't stack with magic and players never get, even when playing a drow. Seems to be what Myou was thinking.

Myou
2009-08-18, 01:20 PM
No. The NPCs need to follow the rules of the world the same as the players. If they don't, then that means one group or the other is ignoring the laws of physics. Characters will be able to tell if an opponent is using magical items, and if the items vanish upon death, the characters will want to know why. Play 4.x if you want that bull.

No. The players don't know the stats of their foes. If an enemy has an extra +2 to hit then perhaps he has a high str. Or prehaps he went on a quest to get a magical power to boost his hit rolls. Perhaps he's just REALLY good with a sword. The players don't know, and it doesn't matter. Even magic effects can be created by means not in the PHB. Just because there's no mechanic for something doesn't mean you can't use it. If the players complain then they're metagaming and need to grow up.

Berserk Monk
2009-08-18, 01:22 PM
So I realized last night that I've given my players faaaar too much loot. Through a combination of loot and poor initiative and fortitude rolls on my part, my party of four level 4s destroyed two level 6 NPC villains in a single round of combat -- and we don't even have a "real" spellcaster in the party.

So I think I need to run some low-treasure adventures for a while to rebalance things a bit.

Any ideas of good low-treasure adventures?

Just base all your adventures around animals. They don't carry loot.

"A sloth of bears is attack a local village."

"My brother was just mauled by a dire tiger."

"A dingo ate my baby."

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-18, 01:32 PM
So I realized last night that I've given my players faaaar too much loot. Through a combination of loot and poor initiative and fortitude rolls on my part, my party of four level 4s destroyed two level 6 NPC villains in a single round of combat -- and we don't even have a "real" spellcaster in the party.

So I think I need to run some low-treasure adventures for a while to rebalance things a bit.

Any ideas of good low-treasure adventures?


Hold up. How much treasure do they have, per person? If it is significantly above their WBL, then you may very well be correct. If it is equal to or only slightly above (like 2K above), then the problem is either in your optimization or your tactics, not the players and their equipment.

Let's start with those 6th level NPCs. Post their stats and the stats of your PCs so we can compare, then post exactly how the encounter went. Hell, it may have just been sheer luck due to die rolls.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-18, 01:35 PM
No. The players don't know the stats of their foes. If an enemy has an extra +2 to hit then perhaps he has a high str. Or prehaps he went on a quest to get a magical power to boost his hit rolls. Perhaps he's just REALLY good with a sword. The players don't know, and it doesn't matter. Even magic effects can be created by means not in the PHB. Just because there's no mechanic for something doesn't mean you can't use it. If the players complain then they're metagaming and need to grow up.If the enemies are hitting harder and swinging more accurately than the PCs, then in-character, the PCs probably would want to know why. That's a reasonable response from someone who was just nearly killed by those 'not for PC use' techniques. No metagaming, and certainly not immature to expect the enemies to follow the rules of the world the same as the PCs.

boomwolf
2009-08-18, 01:54 PM
Sinfire Titan-you missed the idea. he now wants way to xp them without looting away much to return to balance.

I suggest using summon foes. the only one with loot is the summoner, but go find him-might take quite some time.

Myou
2009-08-18, 01:56 PM
If the enemies are hitting harder and swinging more accurately than the PCs, then in-character, the PCs probably would want to know why. That's a reasonable response from someone who was just nearly killed by those 'not for PC use' techniques. No metagaming, and certainly not immature to expect the enemies to follow the rules of the world the same as the PCs.

In that situation I would think the enemies were just tough ones. You seem to think the DM needs permission to deviate from the written monsters and foes.

Edit: I'm sorry, I've been a little rude, I didn't mean to offend, my apologies.

Pika...
2009-08-18, 02:02 PM
In my games the players are lucky if they get anything but xp for beating most foes, treasure only comes when it makes sense - you storm a castle, there ought to be treasure in there, you kill some NPCs, you get nothing but the few coins they carry.

If the NPCs need loot to be effective then just ignore that and run them as if they have loot when they don't. You're the DM. And if the players complain that the NPCs should be dropping loot given their abilities then tell them to stop metagaming.

Dude, I love how you run things. My I steal your ways?


p.s. I am guessing you run a low-wealth style of game?

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-18, 02:07 PM
Sinfire Titan-you missed the idea. he now wants way to xp them without looting away much to return to balance.

I suggest using summon foes. the only one with loot is the summoner, but go find him-might take quite some time.

It's 4 level 4s against 2 level 6s. They had an action monopoly, and the level gap was marginal at best. All things considered, even a sub-optimal party could finish those two off depending on the classes used (if it were a bunch of Martial Adepts, Meldshapers, or Rogues on the PC's side of things those NPCs wouldn't have stood a chance no matter the equipment).

An optimized party is capable of sweeping encounters up to 6 or more levels above their APL. And if it is a solo enemy, they can still kill it even if it is 8 or more levels above their APL if they play it smart and are moderately optimized.

I've got a party of 3 3rd level characters (a DFA, a Totemist/Barbarian with VoP, and a Factotum), and they are clearing CR 7 encounters regularly (as in, even encounter they've had so far has been a total CR of 7, and all of them are multiple enemies). It isn't their equipment (despite the fact that they have been loaned 22K in equipment at 3rd level, very little of it is actually combat-worthy), it's their optimization.

If I wanted to challenge that party (and I have been challenging them just fine with these encounters), I'd sick a custom party or a pair of spellcasters on them, all of which would be optimized to match their abilities.

Myou
2009-08-18, 02:16 PM
Dude, I love how you run things. My I steal your ways?


p.s. I am guessing you run a low-wealth style of game?

Well thank you very much, go ahead. :3

I actualy give out a fair bit of treasure (when it's earned), but magic items are rare, - my players have never even seen a +1 sword - instead characters get natural stat boosts as they level up that replace item stat boosts. It's a system I found here (http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/innate_magic.htm) and adapted a little.

ericgrau
2009-08-18, 07:40 PM
NPCs are well known to be high loot baddies. Just don't use them. Try animals, magical beasts, etc. You might even re-flavor some savage monstrous humanoids to be treasure-less or low treasure. Maybe they hunt animals all the time and can't reach civilization. Just be sure to drop their CR so you don't give out too much xp for an easier fight.

Rust monsters, sunder, mordenkain's disjunction, thieves, etc. are cruel ways to handle the problem. So it'll be obvious to the players what you're up to and they'll be more mad out of character than in character. That'll disrupt immersiveness. Instead, maybe include a small amount of such things from time to time, only as much as is plausible, while relying mostly on other ways.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-18, 08:52 PM
In that situation I would think the enemies were just tough ones. You seem to think the DM needs permission to deviate from the written monsters and foes.Depends on the degree, but yes. The rules of the game are the only way the players have for telling how the rules work. Deviate from them, and it is much harder for the players to have any idea what the results of their actions will be.

But part of that is the fact that I gamed with some poor 'rules-light' DMs at various points, so it's soured me on DMs who ignore the rules.
Edit: I'm sorry, I've been a little rude, I didn't mean to offend, my apologies.As have I, sorry. No hard feelings?

Frosty
2009-08-18, 09:04 PM
Easy thing to do is have the loot be alignment specific. "Yeah your opponent was powerful. His Magical Sword of Doom hit you hard because it is un-blessed by the powers of Asmodeus. You try to wield the sword. You take 2 negative levels. Nobody wants to buy it. Just destroy it instead. by going on a quest."

Nohwl
2009-08-18, 09:45 PM
Easy thing to do is have the loot be alignment specific. "Yeah your opponent was powerful. His Magical Sword of Doom hit you hard because it is un-blessed by the powers of Asmodeus. You try to wield the sword. You take 2 negative levels. Nobody wants to buy it. Just destroy it instead. by going on a quest."

i'm going to have to use that idea sometime.

Brauron
2009-08-18, 10:37 PM
Hold up. How much treasure do they have, per person? If it is significantly above their WBL, then you may very well be correct. If it is equal to or only slightly above (like 2K above), then the problem is either in your optimization or your tactics, not the players and their equipment.

Let's start with those 6th level NPCs. Post their stats and the stats of your PCs so we can compare, then post exactly how the encounter went. Hell, it may have just been sheer luck due to die rolls.

Luck did have a significant factor in it. The PCs trounced these NPCs in terms of initiative, and then I rolled poorly for fortitude saves.

The NPCs were a Hobgoblin Fighter 3/Marshall 3 (an army commander) with a +1 Chain Shirt, +1 Scimitar, +1 Light Steel Shield and a couple potions of CLW; the other was a Hobgoblin Warmage 6 with a +1 Mithral Light Fortification chain shirt, a Cloak of Resistance and an Elemental Gem of fire.

I made the mistake of letting the PCs find a set of three Goblin Slaying Arrows in an earlier adventure. The archery-ranger won initiative, shot the Fighter/Marshall with one, who failed his fortitude save and died. The Warmage couldn't cast, say, Fireball because the PCs were gathered around a plot-important device which he'd been instrumental in inventing, so he cast Melf's Acid Arrow. Next round, the archery-ranger shot the Warmage with a slaying arrow, he failed his fortitude save, and died. Loot bodies.

They don't know what the Elemental Gem is, and will likely sell it. They also have only a single Slaying arrow left. Other than that, at this point they all have +2 armor, +1 shields, +1 primary weapons, a couple Cloaks of Charisma and a pair of Lesser Bracers of Archery.

The players have actually commented to me, "Dude, you've given us a lot of loot." So, talking to them, they're fine with me backing off a little.

Thatguyoverther
2009-08-18, 11:21 PM
Wrongful imprisonment is always a good one. You get to take away their toys and they can't get them back until after they've broken out, become a fugitives, found the culprit, and cleared their names. By that time they should be happy to have their stuffs back and it should be more appropriate for their level.

The Neoclassic
2009-08-19, 05:48 AM
Just go for monster sorts who wouldn't normally drop loot, like elementals, mindless undead, vermin, (dire) animals, etc. Perhaps the PCs run into a dragon terrorizing the countryside... because the dragon is severely pissed at its lack of a treasure stash, having just been kicked out of its home nest.

I also like Frosty's idea to throw in some alignment-specific gear. Some crafty goblin will have thought to make their +2 battleaxe to merely act like a masterwork battleaxe in the hands of any goblinoid. Of course, they would've had to make the item themselves or get it special order; if they picked up the axe from another species they raided or at a regular ol' magic shop, it wouldn't have such an enchant on it.

Myou
2009-08-19, 06:23 AM
Depends on the degree, but yes. The rules of the game are the only way the players have for telling how the rules work. Deviate from them, and it is much harder for the players to have any idea what the results of their actions will be. But part of that is the fact that I gamed with some poor 'rules-light' DMs at various points, so it's soured me on DMs who ignore the rules.

Ahh, understandable. I'm very rules-heavy, I just don't tell the PCs what they're fighting or use wealth/experience tables, so if a foe seems very strong but drops nothing good they just assume he was high level.


As have I, sorry. No hard feelings?
No hard feelings. :smallsmile:

ashmanonar
2009-08-19, 07:17 AM
If the enemies are hitting harder and swinging more accurately than the PCs, then in-character, the PCs probably would want to know why. That's a reasonable response from someone who was just nearly killed by those 'not for PC use' techniques. No metagaming, and certainly not immature to expect the enemies to follow the rules of the world the same as the PCs.

How would PC's know that somebody is "hitting harder" or "swinging more accurately" in character? That sort of thought (when I see it in my players) is almost always metagaming, same as trying to figure out defenses.

A character doesn't know he has exactly 45 hit points, and that he was just hit for 15. He knows that he just got hurt. (Besides, the conception of HP being what they are, he may not even know that. That could have been just a scratch.) The character should not know immediately what "class" or "level" the enemy is, that's a metagame concept. They have a sword? They're a swordsman! They must be pretty skilled.

Now, following that logic, if you don't know what class or level something is, how then can you accurately predict its strengths or abilities? Through study, you might be able to figure out that it hits hard. That could just mean that it's a more skilled fighter, with better control over its sword, or some skill at hitting undefended targets.

Triaxx
2009-08-19, 07:58 AM
Sand golems. They don't even leave a body behind and are monstrously powerful.

On the other hand, if you want some of those resources gone, stick them in an adventure that's going to make them burn lots of cash. Alchemical ingredients are expensive don't you know.