Deflect Arrows: Why Unarmed?

[LibraryOgre]

The simple question from above. Why is deflect arrows unarmed only? I mean, I carry this shield for a reason...

[Hawriel]

This is somthing Ive asked myself alot. I was thinking of using the cover rules for a bonus to AC from ranged attacks.

[Doc Roc]

Because non-casters can't have nice things.

[Telonius]

So Monks can console themselves with the fact that, if they ever come across an Archer, at least they'll be able to go up and disarm them with their Quarterstaff, with no fear of reprisal.

[valadil]

It gives monks something cool. Shields already protect you from arrows with something called AC. Deflecting arrows fits the martial arts style character better than the knight in shining armor.

[UserClone]

Actually, Mark, Dragon #310 (one of my absolute favorites, along with its sister issues, 311-312) includes a number of alternate Fighter classes, including one called the "Shield-bearer," who gets the ability to Deflect Arrows with his shield only (he can't do it unarmed) as a choice of bonus feats.

[Fax Celestis]

Because non-casters can't have nice things.

Pretty much. Mostly when it comes to Deflect Arrows, I let it work if you're wielding a one-handed weapon with a free hand and/or a shield. Now, Catch Arrows and/or Return Fire, those require free hands. Unless your name is Luke Skywalker and it's not arrows but incoming blaster fire and you have a brilliant energy longsword +1.

[Sanguine]

It gives monks something cool. Shields already protect you from arrows with something called AC. Deflecting arrows fits the martial arts style character better than the knight in shining armor.

What about Martial Adepts? They're Martial Artists in shining armor.

[Dienekes]

Random thought.

Could you say, be using a Greatsword or something. Then take a free action to drop the sword with one hand (Now holding it solely with the other). Use deflect arrows to charge an archer then once next to him re-align hands and go to town on him?

[Doc Roc]

Suggesting that this was a complicated waste of effort to salvage a basically dead feat was not my original plan. The issue is that arrows come in two serving sizes. Many, and too many. You just can't deflect enough.

[Lapak]

While I'm sure the game move is the way it is for balancing reasons, the martial art my fiance studies includes sword maneuvers specifically intended to deflect arrows. How likely it is to succeed would be up in the air, sure, but it's something that they do teach. And I can't imagine it's any harder to swat down an incoming arrow with a sword blade than it is to do with your free hand. So even leaving shields aside I can't think of a non-balancing reason to disallow armed arrow deflection.

[John Campbell]

It gives monks something cool. Shields already protect you from arrows with something called AC. Deflecting arrows fits the martial arts style character better than the knight in shining armor.

Except the AC bonus from shields is basically crap compared to how useful they actually are for protecting you against ranged attacks.

And I've parried SCA combat arrows (slower than real ones, admittedly) with a greatsword...

[OverdrivePrime]

I've never understood this. I've thankfully never had to compare the effectiveness of deflecting arrows with my bare hands as opposed to my bastard sword, but it seems to me that it should be easier to deflect an arrow with a weapon than with your bare hands. With a deft snap of your wrists, your bo staff whips into the path of the arrow and knocks it aside. With subtle turn, you intercept the arrow with the head of your axe. That sort of thing. For a weapons expert, that should be at least as easy as a monk smacking an arrow out of line with a well-placed crescent kick.

When I run games I allow the feat to be used as long as the practitioner has either a hand free or is wielding a melee weapon. (If someone wants to knock an arrow aside with their sling or crossbow, I'll give them a reflex save with a -4 penalty.)

[valadil]

And I've parried SCA combat arrows (slower than real ones, admittedly) with a greatsword...

I have too. It's damn easy. Proper arrows would be moving quite a bit more quickly than that. I've spent a lot of time at the archery range and can tell you from experience that any bow above 60lbs is shooting arrows faster than you can see at short range (ie point blank shot).

[Person_Man]

It's noteworthy that if you have Spinning Defense (Dungeon Compendium) you can use Deflect Arrows to deflect any number of attacks when wielding a polearm and using the Total Defense action. If you rely on AoO for attacks, it's not such a bad deal for many combats, especially since it works automatically. There are also a couple of Epic feats that make it worthwhile.

There's also the Block Arrow (Heroes of Battle) feat which does the exact same thing as Deflect Arrow if you're wielding a shield. Note that you still count as weilding a shield if it is animated, or if you're using a mithral buckler (no Spell Failure rate and no Armor Check penalty, so no need for proficiency).

There's also a shield enchantment somewhere that does the same exact thing.

[Eldariel]

I have too. It's damn easy. Proper arrows would be moving quite a bit more quickly than that. I've spent a lot of time at the archery range and can tell you from experience that any bow above 60lbs is shooting arrows faster than you can see at short range (ie point blank shot).

They tested that on Mythbusters and managed to find a "ninja" who managed to parry an arrow so it's technically possible especially since D&D characters are supposed to be far superior to anything we have IRL.

[John Campbell]

I have too. It's damn easy. Proper arrows would be moving quite a bit more quickly than that. I've spent a lot of time at the archery range and can tell you from experience that any bow above 60lbs is shooting arrows faster than you can see at short range (ie point blank shot).

Well, depends to some extent on the combat arrow. The PVC ones are pretty much worthless... I've seen those things flying backwards in a good stiff wind. The rubber-headed blunts (Markland blunts, I think? I'm not sure they're legal anywhere in the SCA anymore... they keep changing the rules to make archery suck more) are considerably better, though still not as fast as a real arrow from a heavy bow. And, yes, parryable.

But even bodkin points from an 85-pound recurve hornbow (which I think was the heaviest bow I have direct experience with) aren't so fast that you can't see them in the air. (Which is fortunate, because otherwise we wouldn't have been able to tell if Ekk was even hitting the target with that hornbow... the arrows would go clean through the target and only barely slow down. He only shot one end with it because it was so much hassle to find the arrows afterwards.)

Hell, bullets aren't that fast. The crappy rifles we had at Scout camp, the sights were so badly misaligned that, with many of them, a shot aimed dead center of the target would frequently go completely off the paper. With sharp eyes and good light, it was possible to spot the bullets going downrange - just grey blurs, but visible - and use that to adjust fire onto the target. These were .22 LR, which isn't exactly a high-velocity round, and under ideal circumstances - bright light, directly behind the gun, and you knew exactly when and where to look for it - but still...

But none of that, in any case, answers why, if you can deflect the arrow with your bare hands, you can't do it with a sword or shield, which gives you the advantages of larger blocking area, possibly the extra speed of leverage, and not having to worry about getting your block in front of the fast-moving pointy bit. (It's a lot less impressive when you get the arrow through your hand when trying this. Not so much a concern with a greatsword.)

[Melamoto]

And nobody worries about the poor archers quickly becoming obsolete as a small group of level 1 commoners are deflecting their arrows with rakes due to a single feat. Until Rapid Shot and higher BAB, at least, but it's still not very nice.

[quick_comment]

Incarnates can block a very large number of arrows.

[Krrth]

The simple question from above. Why is deflect arrows unarmed only? I mean, I carry this shield for a reason...

To answer your question, it's a legacy from earlier editions of DnD, much like elves not sleeping. Monks were the stereotype of martial artists, whose popular legends have them catching arrows (yes, it IS possible, but not easy). Back in the day, monks were the only ones that could do it.

[imp_fireball]

Random thought.

Could you say, be using a Greatsword or something. Then take a free action to drop the sword with one hand (Now holding it solely with the other). Use deflect arrows to charge an archer then once next to him re-align hands and go to town on him?

On a charge, you'd end up attacking the archer with the weapon using one hand. Also, what would be the nature of the free action? If it's a no-limits free action, then that's like saying 'you can do whatever you want without interrupting other actions'. It'd be better to make it an immediate action.

[ericgrau]

Deflect arrows already requires a flick of the wrist so fast that it should be physically impossible. To allow it with a weapon or shield strains believability even further. I mean, maybe with a foil if there was such a thing in D&D (the D&D rapier isn't one).

[Seffbasilisk]

As the only person I know who has actually managed to deflect an arrow IRL...

It's because you don't have TIME to think about a weapon or a shield, it's just a purely instinctual move, where if you have excellant reflexes and amazing luck you're able to pull it off.

That said, there's the feat Shield Block which lets you deflect with a shield, and an enhancement to weapons called...Deflecting? I believe it's only a +1, but it lets you do the same thing with a reflex save.

[Grommen]

You don't dodge the bullet, you dodge the shot. Same with arrows. Best way to avoid the weapon is to not be their when the weapon moves though.

Ya that "Ninja" cought one arrow. He missed several others and they slowed the arrow down or blunted the tip or something so as not to kill him if I remember correctly.

I agree it's unarmed because classically it was monks that were rumored to be able to do this, so it got placed in the Unarmed section, where it is technical their perview. Anyone can take it though, they just have to meet the requirements. Hell Zina did it like every other show!

I can't say if it would make a better choice to use a weapon or not. Weapons are a natural extension of the human body, extending the reach and capabilities. However they are not faster than using hands and feet. They just give reach and of coarse their is a business end somewhere that tends to hurt more when you get hit with it.

Personally when confronted with Archers, I would much rather duel wield Shields, and have Kevlar undies (the new kind that deflects even slashing and piercing)

[John Campbell]

As the only person I know who has actually managed to deflect an arrow IRL...

It's because you don't have TIME to think about a weapon or a shield, it's just a purely instinctual move, where if you have excellant reflexes and amazing luck you're able to pull it off.

If you're in a swordfight, and you're thinking about what to do with your weapon or shield, you might as well hang it up, even before the arrows start flying. If it's not all spinal reflex, it's not fast enough. You'll run into an enemy for whom it is all spinal reflex, and he'll murder you without a thought, and you'll never even see it coming.

(He may not see it coming, either, but when someone's lizard-brain has just killed someone else with a blindingly fast blow without bothering to consult the smart-but-oh-so-slow ape-brain up front, it's a much more pleasant sort of surprise when you're the one on the handle end of the weapon.)

There isn't a whole lot that we do that's really instinct. Reflexes can be trained. If you want to be effective in a swordfight, they have to be.

[Seffbasilisk]

If you're in a swordfight, and you're thinking about what to do with your weapon or shield, you might as well hang it up, even before the arrows start flying. If it's not all spinal reflex, it's not fast enough. You'll run into an enemy for whom it is all spinal reflex, and he'll murder you without a thought, and you'll never even see it coming.

(He may not see it coming, either, but when someone's lizard-brain has just killed someone else with a blindingly fast blow without bothering to consult the smart-but-oh-so-slow ape-brain up front, it's a much more pleasant sort of surprise when you're the one on the handle end of the weapon.)

There isn't a whole lot that we do that's really instinct. Reflexes can be trained. If you want to be effective in a swordfight, they have to be.

I know that, I fenced in highschool and a bit of college. However, as much as I made that sabre just an extension of my arm and reacted purely by impulse, my barehanded smack of the arrow moved much faster.

[LibraryOgre]

Deflect arrows already requires a flick of the wrist so fast that it should be physically impossible. To allow it with a weapon or shield strains believability even further. I mean, maybe with a foil if there was such a thing in D&D (the D&D rapier isn't one).

Why on Earth would I want to flick my wrist to deflect an arrow? I have a square yard of timber on my left arm! I'll just, I don't know, put up the big honking piece of wood, and let it deflect the arrow.

[ericgrau]

Eh, so I'm fuzzy on the details. I think others have cleared it up better anyway.

[Eldariel]

Ya that "Ninja" cought one arrow. He missed several others and they slowed the arrow down or blunted the tip or something so as not to kill him if I remember correctly.

The key is, high-level D&D characters are supposed to be more skilled than any human to have ever lived, simply because of the heroic nature of the game. So if a human can get lucky to do it once in a while under specific circumstances, a high-enough level D&D character should have no trouble doing it all day long.

[lesser_minion]

From what I can tell, the limitation was sort of kept over from 1e, rather than being another entry in the list of reasons why it's hard to believe that the designers even meant non-casters to be halfway useful.

I'm not sure if the restriction was in 1e, however - the 1e Monk actually had class features relating to weapon use (including +level to weapon damage rolls, which was quite decent when nobody actually had that many hitpoints)

[Krrth]

Why on Earth would I want to flick my wrist to deflect an arrow? I have a square yard of timber on my left arm! I'll just, I don't know, put up the big honking piece of wood, and let it deflect the arrow.

But that's what the AC bonus does: The arrow doesn't hit you because it hit the shield instead.

Although, with a wooden shield, the arrow is more likely to stick than deflect.

[ericgrau]

Shield is too slow to deflect except when you get lucky. Hence AC bonus. Deflect arrows OTOH is reliable.

I guess I read too fast b/c I thought he meant to use your whole arm instead of the wrist, which makes more sense. Irridisregardless, like everyone's been saying an arm is faster than a weapon or shield.

[John Campbell]

Shield is too slow to deflect except when you get lucky. Hence AC bonus. Deflect arrows OTOH is reliable.

Again, the AC bonus of shields is way too low. In general, really, but particularly against ranged attacks, which can't loop around to bypass them.

And while a big shield is heavier and slower than a hand, you don't have to move it nearly as far. The big kite I fight with (when I use a shield at all, which is not often these days) only needs to be moved an inch or three in any direction to cover me completely. Without that huge piece of plywood strapped to my arm, I might have to move my hand a foot or more to block. It can also give coverage in places that are difficult to reach with an empty hand... like below the knee.

And here's something to consider: You have less time to react to a spear thrust where the point only moves three feet before skewering you than you do to react to an arrow coming in from sixty feet away - faster, yes, but on a predictable trajectory and over a much longer distance. Are you going to claim that you can only parry a spear thrust with a shield or weapon through sheer dumb luck?


I guess I read too fast b/c I thought he meant to use your whole arm instead of the wrist, which makes more sense. Irridisregardless, like everyone's been saying an arm is faster than a weapon or shield.

No. No, it isn't. The length of a weapon acts as a speed-multiplying lever arm. The tip of it moves way faster than the hand. This is the basic principle behind the atlatl, which lets you throw a javelin faster, harder, and further than you could bare-handed, because the socket end of the atlatl moves way faster than the hand that's holding it.

This is more true the longer the weapon is, at least until you hit the point of diminishing returns where the weight (well, rotational inertia, really) of the weapon has increased to the point that you're limiting on the amount of force you can put out rather than the twitch speed of your muscle fiber. And two-handed weapons push that limit out a whole lot farther. Believe it or not, a glaive is faster than a dagger.

[Matthew]

Again, the AC bonus of shields is way too low. In general, really, but particularly against ranged attacks, which can't loop around to bypass them.

Not when you consider that full on body armour only gives a +5 bonus against missile attacks. A +2 bonus from a shield is pretty good in the equation. The problem is that D&D is not a reality simulator and the swing from 1 to 20 is very, very random.

There are basically two types of defence being discussed here, but as already pointed out there is a feat in 3.5 that allows a shield user to automatically block missile attacks in exactly the same manner as the monk deflects.

[ericgrau]

"Lucky" means "not 100%". Not "unskilled". A shield is nice but not reliable like the feat.

[Enguhl]

Why on Earth would I want to flick my wrist to deflect an arrow? I have a square yard of timber on my left arm! I'll just, I don't know, put up the big honking piece of wood, and let it deflect the arrow.

As far as I could figure, the basics for (improved) unarmed strikes require fast and precise attacks, which is what you would need to block the arrow.
The shield gives a bonus to AC, since you can move the shield in the way, but not quite quickly or precisely, so it's a less guaranteed block.

That's how I think of it at least.

[bosssmiley]

Because non-casters can't have nice things.

This. :smallbiggrin:

Just houserule that monks can deflect arrows with monk weapons. Job done.

And Fax beat me with a solution to the "batter up!" problem. Heck, why not just give monks the Jedi Knight ability to reflect incoming weapons? It makes them slightly less irrelevant...

Poor monks. :smallfrown:


Shield is too slow to deflect except when you get lucky. Hence AC bonus. Deflect arrows OTOH is reliable.

I guess I read too fast b/c I thought he meant to use your whole arm instead of the wrist, which makes more sense. Irridisregardless, like everyone's been saying an arm is faster than a weapon or shield.


Irridisregardless,


Irridisregardless,


Irridisregardless,

And now begins the killing of you with fire for what you do to the English language. Don't struggle, it will only excite me further... :smallamused:

tangential to topic: One of the Grogblogs talked about how shields don't get enough respect in D&D a little while ago. The author talked about changing the relative weighting of the AC value of armour and shield, partially so people would willingly do the nekid Spartan/Slaine Mac Nopants thing. I dunno if this might be relevant to monks in some way... :smallconfused:


The Spear & Shield campaign replaces magical and sometimes intelligent Swords with Spears. It also rearranges the AC rules as detailed below:

No armour: 9
Leather: 8
Chain: 7
Plate: 6, reduces Move by 3
Shield: -3 AC
Large Shield: -4 AC, reduces Move by 3

Just thinking out loud. Carry on, but give the Spear and Shield their due...
(source (http://shamsgrog.blogspot.com/2009/07/s-indeed.html))

[Sintanan]

The length of a weapon acts as a speed-multiplying lever arm. [snip] This is more true the longer the weapon is, at least until you hit the point of diminishing returns where the weight [snip] Believe it or not, a glaive is faster than a dagger.

So simply houserule a modification on Deflect Arrows:

Deflect Arrows
You can deflect incoming arrows, as well as crossbow bolts, spears, and
other projectile or thrown weapons.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike or Weapon Focus.
Benefit: Once per round when you would normally be hit with a
ranged weapon, you may deflect it with an open hand if you have Improved
Unarmed Strike or a light or finesse weapon if you have Weapon Focus so
that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not
flat-footed. Attempting to deflect a ranged weapon doesn’t count as an
action.
Unusually massive ranged weapons, such as boulders hurled by giants, and
ranged attacks generated by spell effects, such as Melf’s acid arrow, can’t
be deflected.
Special: A monk may select Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat at 2nd
level, even if she does not meet the prerequisites.
A fighter may select Deflect Arrows as one of his fighter bonus feats.


This keeps the Block Arrows feat --or whatever it's named-- being useful for shield bearers, while allowing characters not using overcompensating weapons (read: large greatswords) from doing what the monk does.

[Partysan]

While I'm sure the game move is the way it is for balancing reasons, the martial art my fiance studies includes sword maneuvers specifically intended to deflect arrows. How likely it is to succeed would be up in the air, sure, but it's something that they do teach. And I can't imagine it's any harder to swat down an incoming arrow with a sword blade than it is to do with your free hand. So even leaving shields aside I can't think of a non-balancing reason to disallow armed arrow deflection.

I'd very much be interested in the name of that martial art, please.

[Kaiyanwang]

In the ELH web enhancement, there is a feat (Armed Deflection) allowing to use a weapon with wich you have Epic weapon focus with feats like deflect arrows and the epic feats in tier.

So, even if very late in their career, Fighters, Warblades and Favored Souls can deflect with weapons arrows and even spells.
(barring the feats cited by Person_Man. And at this regard, there should be a feat similar to spinning defense but for double weapons in some Dungeon Magazine, IIRC).

For sure, as we several times say, a better scaling up of feats could have been more appreciated.