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TaintedLight
2009-08-18, 04:30 PM
A friend of mine and I were talking recently about party roles in D&D and I came to the conclusion that an wizard who is careful will not lose to a fighter of the same level after a point. It's pretty clear that at 1st level magic missile will not save you from a fighter with a greataxe, but at 20th level (with appropriate gear for each) how does a smart wizard manage to die? If the fighter is a melee type, flying seems to be a logical choice. Should the fighter specialize in ranged combat, a well-placed prismatic sphere will stop the arrow/bolt/javelin/whatever. Even if the fighter has a ring of antimagic to protect him from spells, the wizard could kick back with a wall of force and a few summon spells to finish the fighter off in complete safety. If all else fails, the wizard can end the fight on his own terms by casting Time Stop and teleporting to safety if he doesn't think he can win right then and there.

The question is this: Can a fighter of 20th level beat a careful wizard of equal level in core? If you use non-core material in your answer, make sure you adjust your answer for the fact that a wizard has access to more stuff from that source too.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-18, 04:34 PM
I'm tempted to say no, especially if the wizard is cautious/prepared, which means almost the same thing to wizards as it does to Batman.

On the other hand, a sufficently buffed/item boosted fighter might be able to survive long enough against said wizard (hypothetically) to get a critical with a vorpal weapon, which would probably get the job done.

Except the Wizard could cast Time Stop, some sort of Save-or-Suck, or maybe just Dominate him.

Honestly, if the Wizard wins initiative and doesn't feel like screwing around, I'd say fighter is nearly always doomed.

TaintedLight
2009-08-18, 04:45 PM
That was pretty much my feeling. The thing is, a straight fighter with no outside aid except his equipment, feats, and combat ingenuity just seems screwed from the outset against a foe who is (nearly) limitlessly morphic.

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-18, 04:46 PM
Give the fighter 5% magic resistance per level. :smalltongue:

TaintedLight
2009-08-18, 04:48 PM
That's still a no-go. Even if the wizard can't hit him with a spell directly, he can cast Gate and summon a creature with 40 HD to do the job (fiendish/celestial dragon?)

arguskos
2009-08-18, 04:49 PM
*sigh* Really? This thread again? Oi.

Ok, I'll wait for someone to come along and explain why you are completely correct in assuming that a Fighter 20 cannot ever defeat, or even affect, a Wizard 20 in combat. Ever.

The basics however, go along the lines of "I"m Astral Projecting from my Magnificent Mansion, am encased in a Prismatic Sphere, and have Gated in some doom-monster of death to slaughter you. Have fun, kthx."

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-18, 04:49 PM
That's still a no-go. Even if the wizard can't hit him with a spell directly, he can cast Gate and summon a creature with 40 HD to do the job (fiendish/celestial dragon?)

Yeah, fighter will love that.

Seriously, other than a lucky Vorpal, I don't think fighter has a chance.

TaintedLight
2009-08-18, 04:51 PM
Argus, I suppose that scenario could come up but even if we assume that the wizard is on the field of battle in-the-flesh, is there a way for the fighter to win? What about in non-core?

Green Bean
2009-08-18, 04:51 PM
Well, most optimized Wizards start at Venerable to increase their Intelligence. Maybe the Fighter will get a lucky maximum age roll. :smalltongue:

arguskos
2009-08-18, 04:52 PM
Seriously, other than a lucky Vorpal, I don't think fighter has a chance.
See, even with a lucky vorpal, it doesn't matter. He'll never get the CHANCE to use it on anything at all. The mage is impossible to hit, meaning the fighter could be rolling 4d20+4857162 untyped damage, and it STILL won't matter. :smallannoyed:

Kids, this is why RAW is broken.

Ok, in flesh? Just put him inside the Prismatic Sphere and laugh some more. What's the fighter going to do? Punch through it?

Teron
2009-08-18, 04:52 PM
Give the fighter 5% magic resistance per level. :smalltongue:

What does that even mean? Spell resistance isn't percentage based, and 5 x level would be absurd by level 5 and yet utterly fail to help against stuff like solid fog and summoned/called monsters.

And even if you kill the wizard and not his astral projection, clone will kick in and he'll be back to life in a safe place, minus a level.

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-18, 04:53 PM
What does that even mean? Spell resistance isn't percentage based, and 5 x level would be absurd by level 5 and yet utterly fail to help against stuff like solid fog and summoned/called monsters.

It was just a throwaway, jokey comment man. I wasn't seriously suggesting it as a fix to the most crucial imbalance in the 3.5e system.

Milskidasith
2009-08-18, 04:53 PM
Generally, jokes are supposed to be funny or possess some kind of inherent cleverness.

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-18, 04:55 PM
Generally, jokes are supposed to be funny or possess some kind of inherent cleverness.

Really, I feel that was unnecessary.

TaintedLight
2009-08-18, 04:55 PM
It seems clear to me that we have firmly established how outmatched the fighter is in core, but nobody has yet put forth a situation in non-core. Is that because there isn't one even there?

Thatguyoverther
2009-08-18, 04:57 PM
I would say that the fighter has a chance if the wizard doesn't know he's in a fight yet. Maybe sunder the wiz's spell component pouch? Break enough fingers to rule out somatic components? Grappling in general.

Teron
2009-08-18, 05:01 PM
It seems clear to me that we have firmly established how outmatched the fighter is in core, but nobody has yet put forth a situation in non-core. Is that because there isn't one even there?
Outside of core, the fighter gets a few nifty toys that can give him a chance against fairly unoptimized wizards, while an optimized wizard can eliminate any remaining chance, however remote, that he might be defeated, largely thanks to celerity.

quick_comment
2009-08-18, 05:02 PM
It doesnt matter if the fighter has an ability that says he always hit and kills the target.

The battle still goes: timestop, cloudkill, forcecage. Fighter wins initative? Contingency to dim door away. Fighter teleports out? Disjunction wipes his equipment, then you just do the above combo again.

And thats in core. Outside of core, wizards cant ever lose init.

Frosty
2009-08-18, 05:08 PM
Actually, what he should do first is Quickened Dimensional Anchor before the Tmestop. now, no more worry about Teleport.

FMArthur
2009-08-18, 07:35 PM
Well, in core, bastion of game balance it is, the wizard can obliterate the fighter in very many ways, and the fighter can sit back and take it, having no useful options of his own. Outside of core is where a fighter can become interesting and the wizard may have to spend extra spells eliminating new options the fighter may have to get around the most basic caster defenses.

Mando Knight
2009-08-18, 07:55 PM
Grappling in general.

That would work if the wizard doesn't have Still Dimension Door prepared. Which is only a 5th level slot, so at 20th level, that's almost a given if the wizzy has the Still Spell feat and Conjuration.

Voice of Reason
2009-08-18, 08:04 PM
Level 20 Fighter vs level 20 wizard? Well, there's not a whole lot you can do, but I can take some time to think about it and get back to you. Now, if we're talking level 21-22, then a well-prepared fighter could definately defeat the wizard (barring standard obsticles such as luck; initiative would be a critical factor).

quick_comment
2009-08-18, 08:07 PM
That would work if the wizard doesn't have Still Dimension Door prepared. Which is only a 5th level slot, so at 20th level, that's almost a given if the wizzy has the Still Spell feat and Conjuration.

Dimension door has no somatic components, you dont need to still it anyway.


Voice of Reason, once you hit level 21, wizards are outright invincible to anything but the most powerful magic. Fighters at that point have no other purpose than shining the wizard's crystal ball.

olentu
2009-08-18, 08:09 PM
That would work if the wizard doesn't have Still Dimension Door prepared. Which is only a 5th level slot, so at 20th level, that's almost a given if the wizzy has the Still Spell feat and Conjuration.

Dimension door is already verbal only.

Voice of Reason
2009-08-18, 08:22 PM
Perhaps I should explain then: The wizard is indeed powerful at level 20, and becomes like unto a god at levels 21+ However, it's amazing to realize just how powerless they become when encased in an Antimagic Field. Sure, a simple Disjunction will fix that, but to cast it they have to be outside the field itself, and let me assure you that without the benefit of enchantments, transmutations, magic equipment, etc, there are plenty of ways for a fighter to lockdown a straight wizard; Large and In Charge, Knockdown, and grappling come to mind immediately. If the fighter can get the wizard inside his antimagic field, then 3/4 the battle is already over.

Getting an antimagic field on the fighter is also rather easy. The Draconomicon offers the Bulwark of Antimagic for about 28,000g which allows the wielder to use antimagic field 1/day.

Meanwhile, an intelligent magic item (preferably the fighter's weapon of choice) can be had, made with the special purpose to "slay all." For its special power, choose the ability to Dimension Door. Using it's power to get it's wielder within striking distance of it's enemies is quite clearly a valid use of the dedicated power of a "slay all" weapon. Therefore, the fighter teleports next to the wizard as a more or less free action, activates the Bulwark of Antimagic, and proceeds to batter the wizard into submission.

Alejandro
2009-08-18, 08:26 PM
In a gladiatoral style match, no, not really. But if the fighter can trick the wizard, he could win, but it will not be a straight fight.

quick_comment
2009-08-18, 08:27 PM
The wizard does not get caught in an AMF. Besides his contingencies, he just takes a 5ft step, casts invoke magic and dim doors out.

Not to mention, the fighter has tons of trouble flying in an AMF. If he has natural flight, he can only fly with a light load. If he has magical flight, he cant use it at all in an AMF. Good luck getting the wizard in it.

Furthermore, at level 21, the wizard just researches an epic ward against antimagic field. He can make a permanent ward against AMF for less than 10000 gp with just him and 7 other casters than can cast 9th level spells. And then he never has to worry about AMF ever again.

Milskidasith
2009-08-18, 08:29 PM
Perhaps I should explain then: The wizard is indeed powerful at level 20, and becomes like unto a god at levels 21+ However, it's amazing to realize just how powerless they become when encased in an Antimagic Field. Sure, a simple Disjunction will fix that, but to cast it they have to be outside the field itself, and let me assure you that without the benefit of enchantments, transmutations, magic equipment, etc, there are plenty of ways for a fighter to lockdown a straight wizard; Large and In Charge, Knockdown, and grappling come to mind immediately. If the fighter can get the wizard inside his antimagic field, then 3/4 the battle is already over.

Getting an antimagic field on the fighter is also rather easy. The Draconomicon offers the Bulwark of Antimagic for about 28,000g which allows the wielder to use antimagic field 1/day.

Meanwhile, an intelligent magic item (preferably the fighter's weapon of choice) can be had, made with the special purpose to "slay all." For its special power, choose the ability to Dimension Door. Using it's power to get it's wielder within striking distance of it's enemies is quite clearly a valid use of the dedicated power of a "slay all" weapon. Therefore, the fighter teleports next to the wizard as a more or less free action, activates the Bulwark of Antimagic, and proceeds to batter the wizard into submission.

Epic ward against AMF at level 21. Contingency to cast Invoke Magic: Dimension Door at level 20.

You cannot stop a wizard with a trick as simple as "teleport next to him while you have an AMF up."

quick_comment
2009-08-18, 08:32 PM
Also the ever popular shrunken giant cone hat.

Korivan
2009-08-18, 08:32 PM
Tell your friend duels between different classes is arbituary and is a headache to whoever moderates the duel. I know this from experience, having a rouge try to hide around the battle field and stop the other person from metagaming is hard. Best to stick to same class or near enough for fairness.

quick_comment
2009-08-18, 08:36 PM
Tell your friend duels between different classes is arbituary and is a headache to whoever moderates the duel. I know this from experience, having a rouge try to hide around the battle field and stop the other person from metagaming is hard. Best to stick to same class or near enough for fairness.

Not that hard.

Rogue: Hide check DC 45. [Private to GM: Locaton is A14]
Opponent: Spot check 32. I dont see you, I ready my bow to shoot you when I see you.
Rogue: I move around, hide check DC 40. [Private to GM: B12]
Opponent: Spot check 41. Where are you?
Rogue: B12
Opponent: Full attack!
Rogue: Ouch, I hide again. DC 44 [Private to GM: D16]
Opponent: By the way, I have 30ft blindsense. Are you in range?
Rogue: Damn, yeah.
Opponent: Full attack!

Voice of Reason
2009-08-18, 08:40 PM
Well, so far as level 21 is concerned, I was unaware of such an overpowered ward against AMF. I may have to look into that for my next epic-level adventure :smallamused:

However, also at level 21, the fighter can take the epic feat Spellcasting Harrier, which allows him an AoO whenever the wizard casts defensively (this is assuming he is casting within the field, but for now we're discussing 21+, so let's assume so). Do not assume the fighter is not using a reach weapon, which leaves the wizard still quite easily within range when it takes its 5-foot step; high-level [optimized] fighters can deal enough damage that a level 20 wizard ought not to be able to maintain concentration (read: insert wizard skill feat cheese here) when hit.

Back to level 20 theories:

Furthermore, I fail to understand your comments about flight. Perhaps you mean to say that the wizard will be flying via magic at the start of the encounter? That's not illogical. However, such magic will also be dispelled when the fighter teleports up next to said wizard; unless the wizard and the fighter somehow drop at unequal speeds, the wizard will remain in the field even as he takes his falling damage.

For contingencies, the teleport would need to go off before the fighter teleports, because by the time he does, the wizard is in an AMF, and the contingency has been supressed.

However, I get the feeling that Invoke Magic allows for some way around this and allows you to "cast" without casting. Could you enlighten me? I've never heard of this spell/feat before.

fryplink
2009-08-18, 08:42 PM
fighter is dead, unless he starts beside unbuffed naked wizard with an uber-sword.

honestly a properly prepared bard has a better chance, because UMD can cut through some of the classic wizard defences (prismatic sphere/wall, etc) and then closing in for some elegant sword-love. But even this instance leaves the chances in favor of the wizard.

without SR and the ability to dispel the fighter is up the proverbial creek,

quick_comment
2009-08-18, 08:48 PM
Well, so far as level 21 is concerned, I was unaware of such an overpowered ward against AMF. I may have to look into that for my next epic-level adventure :smallamused:

Ward seed. Its like a super AMF, but you can target it against particular spells.



However, also at level 21, the fighter can take the epic feat Spellcasting Harrier, which allows him an AoO whenever the wizard casts defensively (this is assuming he is casting within the field, but for now we're discussing 21+, so let's assume so). Do not assume the fighter is not using a reach weapon, which leaves the wizard still quite easily within range when it takes its 5-foot step; high-level [optimized] fighters can deal enough damage that a level 20 wizard ought not to be able to maintain concentration (read: insert wizard skill feat cheese here) when hit.


Level 21 wizards dont cast defensively. If they have combat casting as a prereq for something, they can take shielded casting which means no need for defensive casting. Also, quickened spells dont provoke AoOs at all. Besides, mage slayer does the same thing as spellcasting harrier in non epic.

quick_comment
2009-08-18, 08:49 PM
Furthermore, I fail to understand your comments about flight. Perhaps you mean to say that the wizard will be flying via magic at the start of the encounter? That's not illogical. However, such magic will also be dispelled when the fighter teleports up next to said wizard; unless the wizard and the fighter somehow drop at unequal speeds, the wizard will remain in the field even as he takes his falling damage.


How is the fighter teleporting while inside an AMF? And even then, worst case scenario, the wizard tumbles out and flies back up. If you replace the fighter with a crusader/swordsage who has shadow blink and thicket of blades, things become a bit more hairy for the wizard.



However, I get the feeling that Invoke Magic allows for some way around this and allows you to "cast" without casting. Could you enlighten me? I've never heard of this spell/feat before.

Invoke magic is a level 9 spell in Lords of Madness. Its a swift action to cast, and allows you to cast one spell up to 4th level while inside an AMF.

Kallisti
2009-08-18, 08:50 PM
In pure core, if the fighter wins initiative and either there was no time for buffs/contingencies/etc. or he has an AMF, he can win if he wins initiative and can reach the wizard to full attack, without setting of the wizard's Foresight before it's too late. As soon as you go outside of core and the wizard has Invoke Magic and Celerity, no fighter can kill him. Because he can teleport out of an AMF, and always wins initiative.


How is the fighter teleporting while inside an AMF?

In the idea above, the teleport was from an intelligent magic item, and the fighter brings up the AMF after he appears. Although, if the wizard is flying, they'll both fall. The AMF is centered on the fighter, so he has no magical flight/teleportation. Sucks to be him. The wizard can teleport out as soon as he falls out of the AMF, because in D&D, you don't fall until your initiative.

Kylarra
2009-08-18, 08:54 PM
Moment of prescience (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/momentOfPrescience.htm) pretty much guarantees that the wizard is going to go first on initiative, even within core itself, and at hr/lvl duration, there's no reason not to have it up.

quick_comment
2009-08-18, 08:55 PM
In the idea above, the teleport was from an intelligent magic item, and the fighter brings up the AMF after he appears. Although, if the wizard is flying, they'll both fall. The AMF is centered on the fighter, so he has no magical flight/teleportation. Sucks to be him. The wizard can teleport out as soon as he falls out of the AMF, because in D&D, you don't fall until your initiative.

The intelligent magic item cant teleport either inside an AMF.

Kallisti
2009-08-18, 08:56 PM
Moment of prescience (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/momentOfPrescience.htm) pretty much guarantees that the wizard is going to go first on an initiative.
It doesn't affect initiative...

...he could use it to get +25 AC against the fighter's first attack, but it doesn't do a thing for initiative.


The intelligent magic item cant teleport either inside an AMF.

The item teleports him before the AMF comes up. The sequence of events goes:

Item: We should kill a wizard.
Fighter: Yeah.
Item: TELEPORT!
Fighter: I activate my Bastion of Antimagic! ANTI-MAGIC FIELD!
Wizard: Idiot. If I win initative, on my turn I fall out of the field and teleport away. If you win initiative, on your turn you fall, bringing the AMF with you, then on my turn? Feather fall. You fall away, I drift down slowly, then teleport.

Kylarra
2009-08-18, 09:01 PM
It doesn't affect initiative...

...he could use it to get +25 AC against the fighter's first attack, but it doesn't do a thing for initiative.Initiative is a dex check.


An initiative check is a Dexterity check.

quick_comment
2009-08-18, 09:03 PM
Item: We should kill a wizard.
Fighter: Yeah.
Item: TELEPORT!
Fighter: I activate my Bastion of Antimagic! ANTI-MAGIC FIELD!
Wizard: Idiot. If I win initative, on my turn I fall out of the field and teleport away. If you win initiative, on your turn you fall, bringing the AMF with you, then on my turn? Feather fall. You fall away, I drift down slowly, then teleport.

Why feather fall? AMF doesnt dispel things, it supresses then

Kallisti
2009-08-18, 09:10 PM
Initiative is a dex check.


I stand corrected. I always thought it was a seperate mechanic, but based on Dex, because of the huge number of things other than Dex that can affect init (spells, items, init feats, the Watchful Spirit class feature, etc).


Why feather fall? AMF doesnt dispel things, it supresses then

Because with Feather Fall Mr. AMF fighter is falling faster than the wizard, thus ensuring that the wizard doesn't fall back into the AMF.

Milskidasith
2009-08-18, 09:15 PM
I stand corrected. I always thought it was a seperate mechanic, but based on Dex, because of the huge number of things other than Dex that can affect init (spells, items, init feats, the Watchful Spirit class feature, etc).



Because with Feather Fall Mr. AMF fighter is falling faster than the wizard, thus ensuring that the wizard doesn't fall back into the AMF.

The wizard was already flying... once the fighter falls, his fly goes back up and he can hover (unless it's overland flight, in which case he just flies off in a straight line.)

quick_comment
2009-08-18, 09:21 PM
Because with Feather Fall Mr. AMF fighter is falling faster than the wizard, thus ensuring that the wizard doesn't fall back into the AMF.

Once outside of the AMF the wizard can fly again

Kallisti
2009-08-18, 09:23 PM
Right, sorry. Forgot that his Fly spell would just turn right back on.

woodenbandman
2009-08-18, 10:24 PM
But the fighter has a CL1 item of Miracle. :smallwink:

quick_comment
2009-08-18, 10:27 PM
But the fighter has a CL1 item of Miracle. :smallwink:

Cant be made. Miracle requires CL 17 at least. And regardless, it still doesnt help.

Voice of Reason
2009-08-19, 12:52 AM
Sorry I've been away for so long. To clarify: the fighter would teleport as Kallisti stated. The weapon would dimension door and then the fighter would activate AMF, likely as a readied action.

Regarding the question of flying: due to the strange 3.5 mechanics of falling, it appears that our fighter has a problem. We could change his base race to Raptorian from Races of the Wild (+0 LA) giving him unlimited average flight. Of course, on the wizard's turn, he would fall 10' out of the AMF zone, resume flying, and the Raptorian would be powerless to follow him (for him to stop flying is a free action; for him to fall must wait for his initiative :annoyed:).

I'm trying very hard to fix this problem, but I'm not getting a whole lot. The best that I can ends with the fighter being successful, but it's conjecture and situational:

1) Raptorian Fighter teleports to 10' below and 5' to the side of the wizard. He activates his Bulwark of Antimagic (standard action). He looses his shield (move action) but holds onto it and does not let it fall.

2) On the Wizard's turn, he falls, provoking an AoO from the raptorian. He free action drops his shield. I'm unfamiliar with the falling rules obviously, so one of two things happens here, and I'm going to separe them into sitation A and B for clarity. Either A, the shield falls immediately (thus falling with the wizard all the way down) or, B, the shield sort of hangs suspended in space until the raptorians iniative, where it falls.

2a) He free action draws his Adamantine reach weapon, likely his intelligent weapon, which he uses to sunder the wizard's shield (his adamantine weapon ignores hardness of 20 or less. This, combined with large amounts of damage, should be able to sunder almost any shield the wizard is wielding; this is the conjecture part of the sequence).

2b) He free action draws his Adamantine reach weapon, likely his intelligent weapon, which he uses to sunder the wizard's shield (his adamantine weapon ignores hardness of 20 or less. This, combined with large amounts of damage, should be able to sunder almost any shield the wizard is wielding; this is the conjecture part of the sequence).

3a) If the shield is not sundered, when the wizard falls 5' more, use Combat Reflexes to hit the shield again. Repeat for the up to 4 AoO the wizard provokes.

3b) If the shield is not sundered, when the wizard falls 5' more, use Combat Reflexes to hit the shield again. Repeat up to once. Pray the shield is broken. When wizard falls 5' more (5' below fighter) have fighter initiate a grapple check and cease flying. Now, either the fighter and wizard are going to be falling all the way down in each others arms (aww, aren't they cute when they're trying to strange each other?) or DnD will be defying the laws of physics even more absurdly (but without magic this time!) by forcing the wizard to wait until the fighter's initiative to resume falling :smallsigh:.

4a) The wizard continues falling all the way to the ground with the Bulwark of Antimagic. The fighter would need a second intelligent magic item (purpose: "Slay Arcane Caster"?) to activate a readied action to teleport him exactly 10' above the wizard's position. Without his shield, he can't use his shielded spellcasting feat. Assuming the fighter has Mage Slayer, the wizard will provoke AoO for his spells. The figher prays that he has an optimized enough build to do enough damage to the wizard that it will be unable to make its concentration checks.

4b) Fighter and Wizard hit the ground (by the way, a wizard with 20d4 health that takes 20d6 damage is not looking good at all; perhaps instead of wasting those two AoO hitting the shield, the fighter should just hit the wizard and be done with it). The fighter disengages from the grapple (question: this seems possible, given that if the fighter refuses to enter the wizard's square next turn, the grapple ends. However, it seems that by RAW, the fighter would need to make an opposing grapple check to "break" the grapple, which would require a standard action on his turn. While grappling, the fighter does not threaten any squares, and the wizard simply uses Invoke Magic to escape while it can. So an important question arises: can the fighter even disengage? Assuming he can, if not, ignore this tangent completely). Assuming fighter has Mage Slayer, the wizard will provoke AoO for all his spells. The figher prays that he has an optimized enough build to do enough damage to the wizard that it will be unable to make its concentration checks.


5a) Figher "falls" 10' on his turn and proceeds to pummel on the wizard, keeping him pinned in place (within range of the AMF) with the Knockdown feat. Repeat until wizard is dead or escapes to rain fiery doom upon the fighter.

5b) The fighter keeps the wizard pinned in palce with the Knockdown feat and repeats full attacks until the wizard is dead or escapes to rain fiery doom upon the fighter.

--------

Sorry for the massive wall of text. Frankly, I'm starting to think that the fighter can just die and live with it, because it's too much work thinking of creative solutions to a single wizard's spell that, given rules interpretations, may not work. Along that line, quite a bit of what was proposed above is ridiculous enough to make me blanch, as well as being highly situational.

However, I thought to myself: "All's fair in love and war, right?" My concience replied:

"All's fair in love and war where a wizard is concerned!"

:smalltongue:

TaintedLight
2009-08-19, 02:29 AM
Some of these solutions for getting the fighter into the wizard's face are very creative and might work, but that still doesn't answer the question of how the fighter can force the wizard to lose. The wizard wins or loses on his own terms as it is since he can teleport away instantly.

olentu
2009-08-19, 02:59 AM
Well aside from the fact that said fighter would need to get past the contingencies, the celerity, the surprise round, win initiative, and all the other things there is at least one mechanical problem that I noticed on a quick review. Assuming I am remembering the actions in combat rules correctly if the fighter was going to drop the shield said fighter would have to ready an action to do so. This takes a standard action that is already used by activating the antimagic field.

Edit: There are of course ways I can think of around this problem but as presented it is a problem assuming I am remembering correctly.

Edit: I did not want to take the time to find all the mechanical flaws and I can see at least one more but I shall be lazy and let someone else take over.

Farlion
2009-08-19, 03:37 AM
A fighter can only beat a wizard, when the wizard is asleep and fully trusts the fighter. Which, in most cases, a level 20 wizard will not do, so, well... fighters are screwed.

Really, I don't see how a fighter can outsmart a good wizard, so there's no chance of the fighter beating the wizard.

And every level 20 wizard will probably be uber paranoid, so he will never really be defensless.

Cheers,
Farlion
Headmaster of the School of Magic for the Greater Good

lesser_minion
2009-08-19, 04:04 AM
Traditional arguments that come up in these threads have a tendency to assume that the wizard cares about nothing but power/immortality, and is able to get very liberal/positive interpretations of certain spells while feats are strictly/negatively interpreted. Taking both of those into account, the wizard might have one or two weaknesses (the first problem in particular will rarely arise in play)

However, none of those weaknesses would ever be serious enough to allow a fighter to take on the wizard, not without some serious work.

It's also worth pointing out that it's actually unlikely that the designers even playtested this kind of duel, because they assumed that the classes presented would be played, mostly alongside each other in opposition to the monsters presented. The more important goal for class balance is not "fighter pwnz0rz da wizerd" but "all classes complement each other and are worth bringing to the table".

At present, you will usually find that a wizard has a small number of capabilities that will resolve the vast majority of situations, unless facing extremely unusual opponents or other, equally optimised, casters.

Eldariel
2009-08-19, 10:41 AM
Well, so far as level 21 is concerned, I was unaware of such an overpowered ward against AMF. I may have to look into that for my next epic-level adventure :smallamused:

However, also at level 21, the fighter can take the epic feat Spellcasting Harrier, which allows him an AoO whenever the wizard casts defensively (this is assuming he is casting within the field, but for now we're discussing 21+, so let's assume so). Do not assume the fighter is not using a reach weapon, which leaves the wizard still quite easily within range when it takes its 5-foot step; high-level [optimized] fighters can deal enough damage that a level 20 wizard ought not to be able to maintain concentration (read: insert wizard skill feat cheese here) when hit.

On level 21, Wizard can become immune to all non-epic spells. He can also trigger contingent teleportation effects on being approached by AMF, though he doesn't need to since epic magic ignores AMFs. On epic, the Wizard literally doesn't need to notice mortals' (under level 21 characters') existence, simply because Epic Spellcasting is just that good.


Furthermore, I fail to understand your comments about flight. Perhaps you mean to say that the wizard will be flying via magic at the start of the encounter? That's not illogical. However, such magic will also be dispelled when the fighter teleports up next to said wizard; unless the wizard and the fighter somehow drop at unequal speeds, the wizard will remain in the field even as he takes his falling damage.

For contingencies, the teleport would need to go off before the fighter teleports, because by the time he does, the wizard is in an AMF, and the contingency has been supressed.

However, I get the feeling that Invoke Magic allows for some way around this and allows you to "cast" without casting. Could you enlighten me? I've never heard of this spell/feat before.

Invoke Magic is in Lords of Madness and allows you to cast in Anti-Magic Fields. Level 9 spell. Nothing special; you don't need it. Now, the Fighter cannot teleport under the effect of AMF so he needs to activate AMF after teleporting, at which point the contingency triggers.

The Wizard can also be Astral Projecting in which case all you do is force him to return to his normal body. This is the standard High Level Wizard protection. Note that the Fighter needs to get to act first for any of that to be relevant; if the Wizard acts first (which is likely given Moment of Prescience and the ability to basically figure out when he's going to fight next day with Contact Other Plane; yes, it can be done with two-three castings with sufficient accuracy), the Fighter will find himself encased by:
-Walls of Force/Forcecage/Otiluke's Resilient Sphere/some such
-Some kind of consistent damage effect (Acid Fog, Cloudkill, anything that's eventually going to be lethal)
-Dimension Lock

and a readied action to Cage the Fighter again; this is just in case the Fighter whips out a Rod of Cancellation and thinks he can do something relevant. Eventually the Fighter does. Out of core, you use Maw of Chaos for consistent damage for increased efficiency.

Alternatively, the Wizard could also burn some XP to Gate in a bunch of monsters in one turn and see the Fighter fight some CR ~27 encounter alone. Of course, all this is when the Wizard isn't trying. Note that out of core (which Bulwark of Antimagic is, btw; Core doesn't have any way for Fighter to acquire AMF and definitely no way for Fighter to fly naturally nor have means to teleport while under AMF), Wizard has Anticipate Teleportation, which delays all teleportation effects by 1 round and gives Wizard full knowledge of who's teleporting and where. Have fun appearing in the aforementioned cage of death with your own AMF stopping you from even trying that sorry Rod of Cancellation of yours.

Also, Celerity + Foresight means, Wizard can act as an immediate action before Fighter regardless of Initiative/Surprise (and the Wizard wins Initiative). Note that I'm not using Shapechange & co. here yet, nor Incantatrix or anything to persist a large number of buffs. This is childs' play from the Wizard; just the basic buffs he'll have on always.

Note that I'm not accounting for this feat called "Craft Contingent Spell" which literally allows the Wizard to have a contingent Time Stop trigger for any problematic scenario (he can also use "voice activation"; speaking is a free action you can take out of turn order so just make the contingencies activate when you speak certain phrase). Contingent Celerity is frankly cheaper and better though. If preparing for scenarios, "anti-magic being brought to within 10' of me" would be up there; once the fighter moves or casts his AMF, the wizard teleports away. Of course, that's never going to happen. Instant Refuge is an auxillary 9th level Contingency for Wizards too.


Also, on level 1, Wizard has Color Spray and Sleep, giving him a good 70% to beat Fighter provided the Fighter cannot charge him the first turn (and chances are, Wizard has higher initiative).

I don't understand why people mention Magic Missile as a first level spell - it's not even worth casting before you have ~3 missiles, at least. You didn't go around preparing Magic Missile as your only spell in AD&D either... No, Fighter is never going to be the favorite in 1v1 vs. a Wizard, regardless of the level.

Fighter isn't meant to 1v1 Wizards. Wizards have true power while Fighters just swing a sword. Fighters' role in party is to take hits, kill mooks and to finish things off after they've been disabled with magic. A well-built Fighter can do some things in this role better than casters out of core, and thus has a reason to exist.

In Core, after about level 7, Cleric and Druid frankly fight just as well or better than Fighter so he doesn't even have that. Barbarian is also obviously better than the Fighter simply because Fighter doesn't have enough feats worth taking to make use of all those bonuses he gets.

Voice of Reason
2009-08-19, 11:53 AM
-snip-

Sooner or later, I'm going to start counting spell slots that the wizard is using purely on conditional daily buffs :smallamused:

In response to the talk of contingencies: To be frank, we can have discussions about what does and does not trigger any number of likely contingencies until doomsday; for as many triggers as you can list, I can list ways around them, until the fighter's entire arsenal is designed just to combat them, while the wizard is losing 1-2 spell levels worth of exp. on buffs each day. For example, fighter teleports 10' above the wizard via intelligent magic item, readied action activates Bulwark, and he's now bypassed a contingent "whenever an opponent moves adjacent."

Of course, the natural response is "what if he has a contingent 20' radius teleport prepared?" You can see how this can loop into infinity. Frankly, no fighter in his right mind would be thinking about contingencies at the begining of a fight; I'd like to say that an average wizard will not maintain heavy contingencies due to the high exp cost, but I know better; a simple scry, greater teleport, and a following slaughter of some random monster will make up the exp. Therefore, this point goes to the wizard.

Secondly, regarding the use of non-core material: frankly, the wizard wins a strictly core battle. With the measly feats offered by the Players Handbook, a melee fighter is overcome by a wizard who can fly 24/7, and a ranged fighter (besides not doing nearly enough damage) has to deal with having his weapon destroyed, saving vs. killing himself, 24/7 invisible wizards, time-stopping, delayed blast fireball wizards, etc. Out of core, the fighter has a chance to at least do something. Which means, naturally, enter batman wizard.

Regarding the use of Celerity and Foresight: I'm counting your spell levels, waiting for you to make a mistake :smalltongue:. In all seriousness though, I had forgotten about the ridiculous celerity, having never actually gone over the spell myself. Frankly, given the situations listed by the OP, where the wizard and fighter knowly engage each other, the fighter would lose in this situation.

Regarding the use of incantrix and such: I was under the impression that we were using straight, vanilla level 20/fighters and level 20/wizards. If we're adding prestige classes to the mix, then the fighter has a few more options available, but I think at that point I'd simply quit caring considering the things that wizards have available to them.

Regarding level 1 fighters and wizards: I agree with you, but only in part. Assuming no element of surprise (if there is surprise, the surpised party loses), I'd say the wizard and fighter at level 1 could be said to be evenly matched. Color spray is a wonderfully effective spell at first level, and always my number 1 choice; sleep works as well. However, both of these are save negates spells. Unless your level 1 wizard is a Pazuzu-worshiping (spelling?) 'lil hellraiser, there's a descent chance the fighter will survive at least once. Furthermore, a single hit from a fighter will probably kill your wizard (1d4=4+con, probably around 2=6. A generous guess would be 8. Meanwhile, the greatsword-wielding fighter with 16 strength hits for 2d6+4, without power attack, weapon focus, or any other feats, which nearly guarentees an unconcious wizard.) Of course, he has to hit you first, which, like the wizards save negates spell, offers the wizard a chance to survive. At that point, the dice really determine the winner.

To TaintedLight: I had thought your questions was "can" a level 20 fighter beat a level 20 wizard. If your question is "how does a fighter always beat a level 20 wizard," then quite frankly, there is nothing to be done. Even assuming that a fighter wins initiative and the wizard isn't packing celerity+foresight or contingencies that can't be worked around, he still has to hit the wizard. Without specifying the stats on the wizard to be fought, it simply can't be done, because there are so many ways for a wizard's spells to counteract anything the fighter does, even without considering the factors such as luck (ex, initiative: if the fighter can achieve +20 iniative modifier over the wizard, he will win initiative. Winning iniative and acting first is the only way to ensure 100% victory. However, without knowing what the wizard's initiative modifier is, it's impossible to even construct a build where the fighter beats it by +20, let alone beat things like Moment of Precience).

However, if you were willing to change your query to "how can the fighter win every time against a wizard who is not prebuffed?" then you may get an answer.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-19, 12:03 PM
How are you finding this wizard in order to teleport up to him?

Eldariel
2009-08-19, 12:07 PM
A level 1 Wizard can pull DC of 17 (Gray Elf with 18 Int upped to 20 with racials; Spell Focus: Illusion) without horribly gimping himself, which means Fighter has about 20% chance to save, while the Fighter has much higher a chance to miss I'd wager (16 Dex is AC 13; Orc Fighter with 22 Str has +7 to attack for 25% chance to miss).

More relevantly, unless they start within charge distance, the Wizard can move and ready an action to Color Spray (or move a bit further and Sleep instead), thus getting the first strike in all cases but in the case where you start within charge distance and Fighter wins the initiative. That is unless the Fighter is an Archer, which would definitely help him out a lot (although the wizard could drop prone and start casting sleep; prone at least adds +4 to the AC vs. ranged attacks), though that most likely won't kill the Wizard in one hit (I'd wager 5-6 HP to the average 4.5 damage of a Longbow).


Btw, here's the list of buffs I'd assume on the Wizard:

Mage Armor
Anticipate Teleport
Invisibility
Contingency
Shapechange (if we're being silly and allowing it)
Moment of Prescience
Foresight
Heart of X-line
Energy Immunity: Everything
Overland Flight
Mind Blank
Nondetection
Water Breathing
Phantom Steed (that he's riding)
Superior Resistance
Instant Refuge
Nystul's Magic Aura (to conceal all his auras)


Most of those either last hour/level or 10 min/level (leading to a couple of extensions to make 'em last all day - note though that Shapechange wouldn't probably be maintained for more than 6 hours as it overlaps with Foresight) or all day.

Further, we can assume that the Wizard has used Contact Other Plane yesterday to figure out if he's going to fight next day, and when, and which spells are optimal to prepare for that fight.

Delaney Gale
2009-08-19, 12:14 PM
It's also worth pointing out that it's actually unlikely that the designers even playtested this kind of duel, because they assumed that the classes presented would be played, mostly alongside each other in opposition to the monsters presented. The more important goal for class balance is not "fighter pwnz0rz da wizerd" but "all classes complement each other and are worth bringing to the table".

Thank you! The wizard and fighter fill very different roles in a party setting and are both worthwhile to have around. The fighter might not cast the world-shattering enchantments that puts your opponent in a weak position, but they end the battle before the opponent gets a chance to retaliate against the wizard, flank with the rogue, protect/team up with the cleric.

It's kind of like Pokemon. The Pokemon you take around with you while traveling are often different for the ones you pick for serious battles, because although Strength/Surf/Fly might be non-optimal, you still need them to actually adventure.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-19, 12:20 PM
Slight problem with your statement: Fighter's don't balance well against a lot of opponents, while wizards can kill encounters more powerful than they should be able to.

Flickerdart
2009-08-19, 12:22 PM
Remember age category shenanigans, you can get a DC18 that way. Meaning that unless the Fighter takes Iron Will (which is a waste of a feat) or has a WIS higher than 14 (which no reasonable Fighter will, they need STR and CON much more, very few will have this much WIS anyways) he's only got at best a 20% chance to live, only 10% if he's WIS 10, and 5% if his Orc racials or lack of brains leave his WIS at 8.

PId6
2009-08-19, 12:22 PM
Thank you! The wizard and fighter fill very different roles in a party setting and are both worthwhile to have around. The fighter might not cast the world-shattering enchantments that puts your opponent in a weak position, but they end the battle before the opponent gets a chance to retaliate against the wizard, flank with the rogue, protect/team up with the cleric.
Not true when you can have summons or polymorph to do the same thing but better.


It's kind of like Pokemon. The Pokemon you take around with you while traveling are often different for the ones you pick for serious battles, because although Strength/Surf/Fly might be non-optimal, you still need them to actually adventure.
I always just kept around a level 5 HM slave so my actual team members can have useful moves.

(On a side note, Surf is actually very optimal.)

Delaney Gale
2009-08-19, 01:10 PM
Not true when you can have summons or polymorph to do the same thing but better.

I guess what has always bothered me about the Tiers and/or "wahhhh wizards rule fighters suckkkkk no fairrrrr" train of thought is that in a game with friends playing different class roles, it's a lame move to take everyone's party role away so people don't actually play like that. Well, the kind of people I want to play with, at least. A wizard in play is going to take advantage of "oh sweet, my buddy Joe over there is really handy with a glaive so I don't need to drop in a summon to flank, my buddy Fred is going to drop some buffs, so how about I take care of that guy way over there before he gets close to us?"

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-19, 01:16 PM
I guess what has always bothered me about the Tiers and/or "wahhhh wizards rule fighters suckkkkk no fairrrrr" train of thought is that in a game with friends playing different class roles, it's a lame move to take everyone's party role away so people don't actually play like that.
No one should, and no one says people should, but the fact that it can be done when it should not be achievable...

PId6
2009-08-19, 01:21 PM
No one should, and no one says people should, but the fact that it can be done when it should not be achievable...
Exactly. Ignoring a problem doesn't mean it's not there, after all.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-19, 01:22 PM
Exactly. Ignoring a problem doesn't mean it's not there, after all.

After all, we are not bureaucrats.

Delaney Gale
2009-08-19, 02:37 PM
I think that as long as the ability to decimate the laws of physics one-by-one is on the table, there's going to be an imbalance between those who are good at decimating the laws of physics (wizards, druid and clerics who pick decent spells) and those who are bad at it/can't (physical classes period, blaster wizards, etc). This is why ToB is interesting- it gives combat classes the balancing element of bending the rules of reality.

I honestly think the fighter is the problem in this equation, not the wizard. The flavor of the fighter is brilliant, but trying to make the paragon of what's possible in the real world stand up to the paragon of what's possible in the realm of imagination and fantasy is the problem. It's a fun, grounded class to play, with a lot of potential and an important role in the party, but if we're talking optimizing for a duel, we're talking maximizing on the imagination/fantasy scale. Physically possible ability's never going to stand up to that.

PId6
2009-08-19, 02:43 PM
I honestly think the fighter is the problem in this equation, not the wizard.
I completely agree. In my view, there are only two tiers of classes: classes that can have fun with their mechanics, and classes that cannot (without a lot of help). The fighter (and monk and paladin and ranger etc) are of the latter category.


The flavor of the fighter is brilliant,
Huh? What flavor? I always thought it was just a guy who fights. The only class feature (bonus feats) is as unspecific as can be. The fighter's probably the most generic class in the game (besides the actual generic classes in UA of course).

drebb
2009-08-19, 02:54 PM
New Topic: Can A 20th Level Warblade Defeat A 20th Level Wizard?

PId6
2009-08-19, 03:01 PM
New Topic: Can A 20th Level Warblade Defeat A 20th Level Wizard?
Simple answer: No.

Eldariel
2009-08-19, 03:10 PM
New Topic: Can A 20th Level Warblade Defeat A 20th Level Wizard?

Let me make this really simple for you:
The answer to every "Can X defeat a level 20 Wizard?" is defined by another question: "Does X have access to up-to-level 9 spells from Wizard's list, or epic spellcasting?"

If the answer is "Yes", then the answer to the original question is also "Yes". If the answer is "No", then the answer to the original question is also "No". Note that how they gain the access is immaterial; a Cleric can do it through Domain spells, a Druid can do it through Shapechange, etc.


The question is whether they can cast those spells or not. And yes, that means with infinite access to custom magic items, a commoner could defeat a level 20 Wizard...but that's why you don't allow custom magic items. They just make the game really silly.

This only applies when the universe isn't already broken; that is, when everyone is Pun-Pun from level one, your class doesn't really matter (though Paladins rock). However, assuming Fighters, Rogues, Wizards & Clerics rely mostly on their class features and use magic items to compound them and be better at what they do, Wizards & Clerics win out.

Dixieboy
2009-08-19, 03:36 PM
What does that even mean? Spell resistance isn't percentage based, and 5 x level would be absurd by level 5 and yet utterly fail to help against stuff like solid fog and summoned/called monsters.

And even if you kill the wizard and not his astral projection, clone will kick in and he'll be back to life in a safe place, minus a level.2e had resistance in percentage if i remember correctly.

Lysander
2009-08-19, 03:44 PM
Here's how the fighter wins.

Step 1: Work as a mercenary and collect 9,000gp
Step 2: Hire 20 level 9 wizards to cast Nightmare on the level 20 wizard
Step 3: Level 20 wizard rolls a natural one and can't prepare spells the next morning
Step 4: Kill level 20 wizard
Step 5: Profit

Milskidasith
2009-08-19, 03:48 PM
That's not the fighter winning... add in the fact that Mind Blank makes it useless and Foresight/Contact Other Plane make the wizard not knowing about the casting impossible, and the fact he still keeps his old spells... what advantage were you trying to get?

PId6
2009-08-19, 03:48 PM
Here's how the fighter wins.

Step 1: Work as a mercenary and collect 9,000gp
Step 2: Hire 20 level 9 wizards to cast Nightmare on the level 20 wizard
Step 3: Level 20 wizard rolls a natural one and can't prepare spells the next morning
Step 4: Kill level 20 wizard
Step 5: Profit
Two words: Mind Blank

Milskidasith
2009-08-19, 03:51 PM
Two words: Mind Blank

One word: Ninja'd. :smalltongue:

PId6
2009-08-19, 03:54 PM
One word: Ninja'd. :smalltongue:
*Shakes his head in shame at letting a guy in heavy armor sneak up on him*

Milskidasith
2009-08-19, 03:55 PM
My sneak modifier is like -8... maybe I was running Divine Insight?

Keldin
2009-08-19, 04:01 PM
OK, I'm a little confused -- what are the parameters of the duel? If there's no time for any buffing before the duel between the fighter and the wizard, all the wizard will have are his pre-set buffs, like some contingency spells or such. In any event, the fighter is likely to win initiative, right? He'll get in a good shot with his melee weapon, using power attack, and with that he could kill the wizard right there, right? What buffs were we discussing that would make the wizard, at the beginning of the battle, unhittable?

I admit I do not have access to a lot of the books you folks have, soI may be missing a key buff spell that lasts for a whole day or an item of some sort.

PId6
2009-08-19, 04:02 PM
Nah, probably just fumbled on my Listen check.

Milskidasith
2009-08-19, 04:03 PM
OK, I'm a little confused -- what are the parameters of the duel? If there's no time for any buffing before the duel between the fighter and the wizard, all the wizard will have are his pre-set buffs, like some contingency spells or such. In any event, the fighter is likely to win initiative, right? He'll get in a good shot with his melee weapon, using power attack, and with that he could kill the wizard right there, right? What buffs were we discussing that would make the wizard, at the beginning of the battle, unhittable?

I admit I do not have access to a lot of the books you folks have, soI may be missing a key buff spell that lasts for a whole day or an item of some sort.

Moment of Prescience to get +25 to initiative, celerity to get extra actions, contingent timestop to do more dastardly stuff, contingent X where X gets the wizard out of the fighter's range, etc. Even in core (without the first two) you can still easily stop a fighter.

Eldariel
2009-08-19, 04:09 PM
Moment of Prescience is Core. That means the Fighter won't be winning initiative after level 15. Contingency is level 11 and means the Fighter won't likely be actually connecting with an attack at that point anymore.

Hell, in Core, the Fighter doesn't even have the ability to one-shot kill the Wizard short of being mounted or überbuffed so even if he WINS the Initiative, he might lose.


Also, Wizards tend to have more Dex than Fighters simply because they can afford to dump more than Fighters.

Flickerdart
2009-08-19, 04:24 PM
OK, I'm a little confused -- what are the parameters of the duel? If there's no time for any buffing before the duel between the fighter and the wizard, all the wizard will have are his pre-set buffs, like some contingency spells or such. In any event, the fighter is likely to win initiative, right? He'll get in a good shot with his melee weapon, using power attack, and with that he could kill the wizard right there, right? What buffs were we discussing that would make the wizard, at the beginning of the battle, unhittable?

I admit I do not have access to a lot of the books you folks have, soI may be missing a key buff spell that lasts for a whole day or an item of some sort.
The fighter can't afford the DEX to have a good initiative. The Wizard has Hummingbird familiar, Nerveskitter, Moment of Prescience, Contingency keyed to "the moment combat begins", and many more.
The Fighter does not begin immediately next to the Wizard. Thus, even if he's within move range (why is the Wizard so close, and not flying?) he can only get one attack off, not likely to kill or, with buffs like Blur, Greater Mirror Image, etc. likely to hit.
When the Wizard's turn happens, regardless of whether the Fighter got a turn or not, he casts a Time Stop that's maximized with a rod, then summons in a few critters, surrounds himself with a prismatic sphere, traps the Fighter in a Forcecage, and has a cup of tea. The Fighter loses, because there's nothing he can do at this point to win, if he's by some miracle not yet dead.