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DragoonWraith
2009-08-18, 06:31 PM
So, I've been working on a base class version of the Mystic Theurge, over on Fax's Wiki. You can find it here (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Mystic_Theurge). The table is fairly complicated, and does not transfer over to here very well (plus it would stretch the page), so I'm going to suggest that everyone simply read about it on Fax's site, instead of here. Feel free to comment here, though, that's what this thread is for! (if you have an account on Fax's Wiki and would rather comment there, that is also fine)

Since I'm not going to post all the details, here's an overview:
3/4 BAB - as Cleric
Good Will save, poor Fort and Ref saves - as Wizard
d6 Hit Die - halfway between Cleric and Wizard
2 + Int skills - same as Cleric and Wizard
Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Heal, Knowledge (all), Profession, and Spellcraft.
Proficiency with simple weapons, light armor, and shields (but not tower shields). Armor still applies arcane spell failure to arcane spells
Arcane and divine spontaneous spellcasting, at once. Both are advanced by prestige classes that advance either, since it's one class. Maximum divine spell level is half of one's class level (as with a Sorcerer, but no 1st level spell at level 1), maximum arcane spell level is (class level - 1)/2, so a level behind the divine spellcasting (but does get bonus 1st level spells at level 1).
Knows all Orisons, limited spell slots per day.
Knows a limited set of Cantrips, casts these at-will.
Gains a Domain at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, 18th, and 20th. These are the only divine spells known by the mystic theurge.
Gains Arcane spells known in "mantles", which give a certain list of spells known.
Primary: at 3rd and 20th, give one spell of each level
Least, at 1st, 4th, 7th, 9th, 12th, 16th, and 19th: 0th and 1st
Lesser, at 5th, 8th, 11th, and 17th: 0th, 2nd, and 3rd
Greater, at 13th and 15th: 0th, 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 6th
Grand, at 18th: 0th, 7th, and 8th
Theurgy: gains the ability to cast certain spells from the opposite type of slot, gaining the advantages of that type of slot (ignore ASF, ignore alignment penalties).
I haven't written up any Mantles yet, but as a preliminary idea, what do you think?

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-18, 07:51 PM
I like it. It certainly more playable than the MT prc at low levels. But why the domain restrictions and arcane mantles? If mantles are part of an overhaul of other caster classes than it makes more sense. But as it is, it's sort of a class that tries to be everything (cleric and wizard) but not be everything (by severely restricting spell choices).

Godskook
2009-08-18, 07:58 PM
Gains a Domain at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, 18th, and 20th. These are the only divine spells known by the mystic theurge.

Let's see:
1.Still got all the MAD of a Theurge
2.Divine spells even more limited than Theurge
3.Selection of Deity becomes extremely important.
4.Certain deities might not have any 'classic' cleric spells at all.
5.Between L7 and L16, comparing spells/day against a cleric3/Specialist wizard3/MT, your theurge gets almost exactly the same number of spells/day on the high end, exchanging the domain/specialist slot(s) for a higher level general slot. For lower spell levels, you're coming out behind a standard theurge in slots.
6.Theurgy is ****, since you're really short on spell slots, and now you've given a class feature which reduces the effective spell level of the slots you have(if you use it).
7.If I'm reading it right, your theurge never learns 9th level arcane spells.

DragoonWraith
2009-08-18, 09:27 PM
I like it. It certainly more playable than the MT prc at low levels. But why the domain restrictions and arcane mantles? If mantles are part of an overhaul of other caster classes than it makes more sense. But as it is, it's sort of a class that tries to be everything (cleric and wizard) but not be everything (by severely restricting spell choices).
Well, because being everything would be unbalanced, I think. Though I may have overcompensated; being a level behind Cleric and two behind Wizard, and then having a very limited spell selection, may be too much. At the same time, Wizard and Cleric are universally considered among the most powerful classes in 3.5 - I am quite comfortable with this class being a Tier or two lower. If it's Tier 4 or lower, that's lower than I was aiming for, though.

Basically, this came about as a "ok, so an MT could be like a Wizard with Domains, for a start... you'd need more than two Domains, or that'd just be gimicky, though. Hmm. OK, so the Divine side is focused on Domains, what about the Arcane side? Well, I don't want to replicate Batman and then give him Divine spells, too, so spontaneous with limited spells known makes the most sense. Hmm, what about arcane domains? Eh, too similar to the divine side. OK, how about mini-domains, that give small bundles of spells? That seems better." And that's how the domain/mantle thing came about.


Let's see:
Let's.

1.Still got all the MAD of a Theurge
By which you mean two abilities? SAD is generally not good from a design perspective, I think. I don't think this is unreasonable. Of course, there's also the Theurgic Specialization feats in my signature, if you feel otherwise. They were intentionally designed for this issue.


2.Divine spells even more limited than Theurge
Yeah, but you're only one level behind Cleric, not three. Big difference.


3.Selection of Deity becomes extremely important.
This is true, I'll have to look into how that can be mitigated.


4.Certain deities might not have any 'classic' cleric spells at all.
Yes, some spells will not be available, both on the divine and arcane sides. However, the 'classic' ones, I will create new Domains to include, if necessary. Of course, Healing already takes care of most of that.


5.Between L7 and L16, comparing spells/day against a cleric3/Specialist wizard3/MT, your theurge gets almost exactly the same number of spells/day on the high end, exchanging the domain/specialist slot(s) for a higher level general slot. For lower spell levels, you're coming out behind a standard theurge in slots.
But the traditional problem with Theurges is not that they have too few spell slots, it's that they don't have any reasonable way to burn through all of those spells slots, so it's not actually meaningful to have more slots. Meanwhile, my version has a higher caster level, and gains access to new spell levels a level (for Arcane) or two (for Divine) earlier than the traditional MT. That's more important, IMO.


6.Theurgy is ****, since you're really short on spell slots, and now you've given a class feature which reduces the effective spell level of the slots you have(if you use it).
Ya mean, compared to the nothing that the traditional MT gets? OK.


7.If I'm reading it right, your theurge never learns 9th level arcane spells.
Sure he does - two. From the two Primary Arcane Mantles he receives, each of which grant one spell of each level.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-18, 09:53 PM
Well, because being everything would be unbalanced, I think. Though I may have overcompensated; being a level behind Cleric and two behind Wizard, and then having a very limited spell selection, may be too much. At the same time, Wizard and Cleric are universally considered among the most powerful classes in 3.5 - I am quite comfortable with this class being a Tier or two lower. If it's Tier 4 or lower, that's lower than I was aiming for, though.


Like the MT? A wizard or cleric is "unbalanced" only when the classes are compared by level. A clr10/wiz10 can cast spells from both lists but is way underpowered for a 20th level character. The MT was invented to fix that but a clr3/wiz3/MT X is also underpowered for character of level X+6, especially at lower levels.

The only reason to play your MT base class, if the option also exists to play the MT PrC, is the base class fixes some of the things wrong with MT. And I think you do with the spell casting progression especially at low levels.

If your base class MT can choose spells as a RAW clr/wiz or clr/sor, it is still weaker than the pure clr or wiz/sor because it is 1 level behind the clr and 2 levels behind the wiz/sor in the highest spell level it can cast. So the class is already at most tier 2.

To make a tier 3 or 4 class across all levels like the Beguiler, Warmage or Dread Necromancer, you have to limit the spell lists not just by domain and "mantles" but by spell power. So for ex, you will not drop the class to tier 3 or 4 if you give access to the Trickery domain since that domain has Polymorph Any Object and Time Stop. Several othe domains are just as "unbalanced".

But if you limit the spell lists in the right way, there is no need for your base class MT to be even behind in the highest level it can cast from either the divine or arcane lists.

This is what I mean the class is still unsure of whether it wans to do everything or not do everything. The point of the MT is to "be everything" and cast as cleric and wizard. The penalty is to cast lower level spells. The result is to be at most tier 2. The point of limiting spell lists (like for the Beguiler, etc) is to limit the "unbalanced" spells that let the wizard and cleric "be everything" and thereby drop a class below tier 2.

It seems as you aiming for the latter. If so, then the real question is what are the spells that your base class MT can cast?

Godskook
2009-08-19, 02:04 AM
But the traditional problem with Theurges is not that they have too few spell slots, it's that they don't have any reasonable way to burn through all of those spells slots, so it's not actually meaningful to have more slots. Meanwhile, my version has a higher caster level, and gains access to new spell levels a level (for Arcane) or two (for Divine) earlier than the traditional MT. That's more important, IMO.

There's already a feat that solves the caster level issue, so that's not a significant worry.

As far as higher spell slots go, 2 spell slots per day don't seem to be a fair trade for truncating a spell list.

Also, is it a typo or intentional that your class lacks bonus spells, currently?


Ya mean, compared to the nothing that the traditional MT gets? OK.

Re-reading, I noticed that you eventually remove the spell-level cost of it, to which I ask, why have it in the first place. Honestly, you seem dead set on making this a 'mystic theurge' combo class when really, you'd probably have a way easier time if you just built it as a single-caster class. It'd be far easier to deal with things that way.


Sure he does - two. From the two Primary Arcane Mantles he receives, each of which grant one spell of each level.

Its not clear on the wiki link what the primary mantles give, hence my confusion here.

DragoonWraith
2009-08-19, 11:45 AM
Like the MT? A wizard or cleric is "unbalanced" only when the classes are compared by level. A clr10/wiz10 can cast spells from both lists but is way underpowered for a 20th level character. The MT was invented to fix that but a clr3/wiz3/MT X is also underpowered for character of level X+6, especially at lower levels.

The only reason to play your MT base class, if the option also exists to play the MT PrC, is the base class fixes some of the things wrong with MT. And I think you do with the spell casting progression especially at low levels.

If your base class MT can choose spells as a RAW clr/wiz or clr/sor, it is still weaker than the pure clr or wiz/sor because it is 1 level behind the clr and 2 levels behind the wiz/sor in the highest spell level it can cast. So the class is already at most tier 2.

To make a tier 3 or 4 class across all levels like the Beguiler, Warmage or Dread Necromancer, you have to limit the spell lists not just by domain and "mantles" but by spell power. So for ex, you will not drop the class to tier 3 or 4 if you give access to the Trickery domain since that domain has Polymorph Any Object and Time Stop. Several othe domains are just as "unbalanced".

But if you limit the spell lists in the right way, there is no need for your base class MT to be even behind in the highest level it can cast from either the divine or arcane lists.

This is what I mean the class is still unsure of whether it wans to do everything or not do everything. The point of the MT is to "be everything" and cast as cleric and wizard. The penalty is to cast lower level spells. The result is to be at most tier 2. The point of limiting spell lists (like for the Beguiler, etc) is to limit the "unbalanced" spells that let the wizard and cleric "be everything" and thereby drop a class below tier 2.

It seems as you aiming for the latter. If so, then the real question is what are the spells that your base class MT can cast?
Yeah, you're right about this. I'll put some thought into it.


There's already a feat that solves the caster level issue, so that's not a significant worry.
No. But neither is Caster Level in general - when compared to spell level.


As far as higher spell slots go, 2 spell slots per day don't seem to be a fair trade for truncating a spell list.
Mm. Well, I wasn't comparing it to the traditional MT so much as other base classes, so it's supposed to be balanced largely against the Sorcerer, really. The number of spells known is similar, and the number of spells per day is generally similar, though divided between the two types...


Also, is it a typo or intentional that your class lacks bonus spells, currently?
Typo, entirely.


Re-reading, I noticed that you eventually remove the spell-level cost of it, to which I ask, why have it in the first place. Honestly, you seem dead set on making this a 'mystic theurge' combo class when really, you'd probably have a way easier time if you just built it as a single-caster class. It'd be far easier to deal with things that way.
Yes, but then you have a divine or arcane caster who just happens to have a spell list that contains spells that were previously arcane or divine. Or you need to keep track of which is which on a spell-by-spell basis... though I guess you have to do that anyway. Hmm.

What about having Spells-Per-Day as a Sorcerer, but with Spells Known as with the domains and mantles?


Its not clear on the wiki link what the primary mantles give, hence my confusion here.
Oh, you're right. It's not. It was at one point, but I guess that got lost in editing.

Basically, a mantle has Least, Lesser, Greater, and Grand granted powers, and a spell from each level. A Least Arcane Mantle gives the Least power as well as the cantrip and 1st level spell. A Lesser mantle gets the Lesser power and the cantrip, 2nd level spell, and 3rd level spell. Etc, as listed. The Primary mantle gives all ten spells, as well as all four powers.

Person_Man
2009-08-19, 03:46 PM
Are you familiar with the Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3)? It's basically a base class MT, in that it can memorize divine spells from any source. Many arcane spells are on the domains or PrC lists. It's also considered one of the most powerful classes in the game. I also have a homebrew Domain Favored Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57097), which is essentially a toned down version in that your spell list is equal to your domain list, which you accumulate more of as you gain levels.

Anywho, you may wish to draw upon either or both when writing up your class.

Godskook
2009-08-19, 04:26 PM
Mm. Well, I wasn't comparing it to the traditional MT so much as other base classes, so it's supposed to be balanced largely against the Sorcerer, really. The number of spells known is similar, and the number of spells per day is generally similar, though divided between the two types...

But you're gaining spell slots slower than a sorcerer does, off a what is potentially a worse spell list. That means you're probably sitting in tier 4, not tier 3, but aiming at Tier 2.

(Your class may learn spell levels just as fast, but he's always missing at least 2 slots, and with the higher MAD than sorcerer, you'll be missing out on bonus spells too)


What about having Spells-Per-Day as a Sorcerer, but with Spells Known as with the domains and mantles?

Like I said, you're homebrewing a brand new base class, you're entirely justified in building a new base class spell list, just as Beguiler/Dread Necro/Warmage do. It'd be much easier than dealing with the convoluted hybrid prestige class issues in a non-prestige class. Essentially, if you're starting from scratch, you're probably best off starting from scratch.

DragoonWraith
2009-08-23, 03:56 PM
But you're gaining spell slots slower than a sorcerer does, off a what is potentially a worse spell list. That means you're probably sitting in tier 4, not tier 3, but aiming at Tier 2.
When you get them would change accordingly, and you get considerably more spell known than the Sorcerer - generally as many or more Arcane spells, plus all the Divine spells. You're just restricted in the exact combinations that you take.


(Your class may learn spell levels just as fast, but he's always missing at least 2 slots, and with the higher MAD than sorcerer, you'll be missing out on bonus spells too)
I agree that he'd be missing out on some bonus spells, but what two slots is he always missing?


Like I said, you're homebrewing a brand new base class, you're entirely justified in building a new base class spell list, just as Beguiler/Dread Necro/Warmage do. It'd be much easier than dealing with the convoluted hybrid prestige class issues in a non-prestige class. Essentially, if you're starting from scratch, you're probably best off starting from scratch.
Well, yes, except, well, I like the Domains/Mantles thing. It's just currently awkward and in need of refinement. Or, at least, so I currently think.

Godskook
2009-08-23, 06:00 PM
The moment you said:

Well, I wasn't comparing it to the traditional MT so much as other base classes, so it's supposed to be balanced largely against the Sorcerer, really.

I started comparing it against the sorcerer base class as if your MT was actually another base class, rather than hybrid prc.


When you get them would change accordingly, and you get considerably more spell known than the Sorcerer - generally as many or more Arcane spells, plus all the Divine spells. You're just restricted in the exact combinations that you take.

A)A sorcerer's spell list, despite his 'spell's known' is still just as expansive as a wizard's spell list. That's what I meant.

B)As far as spells known go, it works out just about the same, except the Sorcerer stops gaining low-level spells-known far earlier.


I agree that he'd be missing out on some bonus spells, but what two slots is he always missing?

Well, when compared directly to the Sorcerer and merging divine+arcane spell slots, Sorcerers@L4 have 3 second level spell slots, while your class has 1(difference = 2). @L5, sorcerers have 4, while yours has 2(difference = 2). This repeats for every spell level, and by the time your class pulls ahead on a spell level, that spell level is typically 3 levels obsolete. Your level 9 spells never do. You're always 2 spell slots behind the sorcerer(in good spells).


Well, yes, except, well, I like the Domains/Mantles thing. It's just currently awkward and in need of refinement. Or, at least, so I currently think.

Except all the mantles are doing for you currently is providing a very unusual spells-known mechanic. Its confusing. Furthermore, its hard to truly measure the power of your class when the mantles could make or break the class all on their own(Not the spells known, part, the least/lesser/grand/primary part).