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Enguhl
2009-08-19, 12:55 AM
So my friend is making his first non-oneshot campaign and I decided to be nice and play a support character. Unfortunately my group has an uncany ability to get into the most dire of (usually combat) situations, so I want to have some combat ability.

My concept: Play a monk, wester stylized though still using the PHB stats saying I trained in self defense so I could travel the world spreading happy faces (and gathering knowledge, scrolls, spreading the word of my diety? I don't know yet, but I'll get to it) and not get roughed up.
My plan is to sit in the back with various scrolls and wands, buffing and healing where needed, and occasionally punching baddies if I absolutely need to. Unfortunately monks don't get UMD making this a difficult character to make effective.

So does anyone know of a feat or alternative class ability/level I could use to get UMD as a class skill?

Thanks in advance.

The Glyphstone
2009-08-19, 12:59 AM
Yeah - the Feat Rogue.

Not joking at all, this character concept would be far better served with a Rogue using the variant that trades Sneak Attack for Fighter bonus feats, then taking Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike. UMD is a class skill now, and your punch-them-in-the-face damage is almost as good as a 'real' monk would be. Plus, lots of other goodies.

If you want a 'Western Monk', though, consider Cloistered Cleric. It's pretty much the iconic monastery-monk, you'll be able to buff and heal without spending money to do it, and if you take the Magic domain, you can use wands/scrolls just fine. This is by far the best option for you, I think.

But if you're deadset on being a Monk, With Kung Fu Action!, I think Unearthed Arcana created a 'Skill Training' feat that makes a skill in-class.

Flickerdart
2009-08-19, 01:01 AM
{Scrubbed}

What you're describing is a Cleric. Play that. Or perhaps a Favored Soul (are there deities with Unarmed Strike as a favoured weapon?). Bard is a good buffer, Rogue and Beguiler are good at UMD. Warlock and Artificer are excellent at UMD. Monks are not a good class, and especially not for what you want them to do.

FMArthur
2009-08-19, 01:09 AM
You could also take Able Learner, the human/changeling/doppelganger feat that makes cross-class skills only take one skill point to advance, then dip any class with UMD as a class skill, and now you can put ranks into it as if it was in-class for anything you take levels in. Dipping factotum for this gets you every skill :smallbiggrin:.

T.G. Oskar
2009-08-19, 01:31 AM
Or you can allow the Monk to replace all of its bonus feats (I kid you not, ALL of its bonus feats) and be sworn to service towards Wee Jas. It's Dragon magazine content, so your mileage may vary, but...

Mostly, you remove the liberty of the Monk's bonus feat choices (and deity, as well), and you gain at first a +2 bonus to UMD, then Improved Initiative, then Skill Focus (Use Magic Device), then Blind-Fight (neither the first nor the third feat make sense), and the end result if you have the right ranks is to add half your Monk bonus to UMD checks.

Crystal Keep has a better explanation of that, or if you're incredibly lucky, it's on issue 346 of Dragon Magazine.

Also, too late Flick. Giacomo has like a seventh sense towards these threads. Or rather, a rarely successful use of a wand of "Detect Monk Threads".

BobVosh
2009-08-19, 01:35 AM
If you are dead set on this kind of character (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704)...might as well use the guide that one man tries to defend vs the whole forums on this exact kind of character.

However I agree: go rogue. If you can use a dungeonscape book I would vote on factotum. Very good support as you are the perfect pinch hitter.

Doc Roc
2009-08-19, 01:40 AM
If you are allowed it, Apprentice Spell caster has some RP requirements, but will get you UMD as a class skill until fifth level.

I had a long post here, but it's gone now. Here is the summary:

Please take a look into Tome Of Battle at Unarmed Swordsage, a recommended adaptation for the excellent Swordsage base class. If you need help, I will be happy to help you over the messaging service of your choice. I will be awake and available for at least another hour.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-19, 01:44 AM
Hahahahahaha....

Oh wait, you're serious. Let me laugh harder.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

ericgrau
2009-08-19, 01:49 AM
Multiclass. 1 level in any class with UMD lets you max out UMD as if you put all your levels in that class. The only difference is that when you take a level of monk you must spend 2 ranks per skill point. But the max number of ranks is the same as a pure rogue.

The one problem I see is that in-combat buffs and healing tend to be weak. They're best done out of combat. Unless you don't mean +X buffs. Things like invisibility can be handy even in combat. Plus you need to fail by 10 or more to really screw up UMD; otherwise you just keep retrying. Again, that works best wehn you have time to blow outside of combat. The one thing I might use in combat is enlarge person on yourself since it boosts a lot of the special attacks that you get monk feats for. Mobility stuff like spider climb, jump, and so forth can also help a monk sometimes.

If you don't want to get roughed up so much, you could also try things like tripping, disarming, and tumbling to enemies that suck at melee. Grappling can also work as long as the target doesn't have nearby friends. Otherwise your damage is good and his sucks.

Kylarra
2009-08-19, 01:50 AM
I'm going to second just playing a Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric).

Doc Roc
2009-08-19, 01:53 AM
Multiclassing for UMD is bad advice. This build will have enough trouble as it stands. There's a bloody feat that you can take to get UMD as a class skill. It stops being bought as a class skill at 5th, but the cap for it still advances as though it were a class skill.

For this, monk is literally probably your worst option. Heavily dependent on multiple attributes, none of which happen to be Intelligence, struggling to maintain core skills, and forced to burn your precious gold on items to buff your UMD check.

Enguhl
2009-08-19, 02:14 AM
To start, sorry for not being able to respond to people by name, im on my phone at work and its a hassle to close th text box, scroll down, scrol up, and enter a name.

Now onto replies.
Yes I am set on playing a monk, flurry will be useful since im only attacking when enemies get close, plus a friend told me I should "play a monk like an actual monk, but crazy kung fu secret power ftw" so im keeping the class.
Feat rogue: no dice, the monk abilities will help keep me alive so I can focus on buffing up the party members. also see above.
Skill training feat (or whichever it was): awesome, just what im looking for.
Unarmed Swordsage: myself (and my group) not liking ToB aside, im not aiming for a combat character, the keeping monk combat stuff is a just-in-case backup.
Weak build: never really had a problem with this. I can make stuff work out fine, famout for my frontline melee kobolds and other such stuff, and this character is actually looking pretty solid and well rounded so far.
Wasting money: not a problem, don't really look forward to that much gear ill be wanting. no weapons except maybe a sling, no armor or shields, and most wondrous items ill either use or sell for scrolls\wants.

General: for people frowning upon my choice of monk (power wise), my group's play style destroys the general power teirs classes get. best combat characters are almost constantly the basic stuff from te PHB, fighter, ranger, monk even. blaster wizards are more helpful than the crazy combo wizards because we can't sit around and wait for spells the be replenished becayse one combat uses them all up just for an instant win.

I think that addressed almost everyone, ill go back and edit when I get off work

Frosty
2009-08-19, 02:14 AM
Just...Cleric. they are good buffers. they can also fight.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-19, 02:16 AM
You want to play a Monklike character: an unarmored guy who fights without weapons in melee. There are a bunch of ways to do that. If you're taking the advice to go Rogue (and it's good advice), then be aware that a Rogue uses items -- lots of items. A Rogue can be a capable unarmed combatant with the right gear, with most of the damage coming from sneak attack. Definitely don't give up sneak attack for feats. Yes, feats are precious, but gold pieces are all around, waiting to make your acquaintance, and you can buy feats. On a limited budget you start with Bracers of Striking, which grant Improved Unarmed Strike for only 1,310 gp. (With more funds you'd instead use a Fanged Ring, because it also grants Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike).) Next add a Monk's Belt to get both an AC boost (since you won't want to wear actual armor with its ACP and max DEX issues) and better unarmed damage. When you can afford it, a wand of Greater Invisibility will let you deal out unarmed strikes with significant sneak attack damage.

Monks and Rogues are both proficient with crossbows. You should carry one (a light crossbow with the quick loading enhancement instead of the Rapid Reload feat) to use at the start of encounters. One shot in the surprise round, and a full round against enemies who haven't moved yet, should give you ample opportunity to deal out sneak attack damage before you pull out your wands for Use Magic Device time. By attacking first you'll attract enemy attention away from those party members you want to protect.

When you close for unarmed combat you'll want to get into flanking positions. Since you said you wanted to spread the word of your deity, a dip into Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) will get you three domains. You can pick Travel and swap it for the Travel Devotion feat, which lets you move your speed as a swift action each round for 10 consecutive rounds. That'll let you close into flanking position and make a full attack, with sneak attack damage on each hit. You could also pick the Celerity domain for +10' to your base speed, and the Quick trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick) for another +10' if you want to emulate some of the Monk's speed.

ghost_warlock
2009-08-19, 02:19 AM
If you're dead set on monk, make this (http://www.dndsrd.net/unearthedParagon.html#human-paragon) your first class level and take UMD as your Adaptive Learning skill. Done. Other two levels are optional; the bonus feat would be nice for flexibility and the ability boost can't hurt a MAD class like monk.

Doc Roc
2009-08-19, 02:21 AM
Here's my honest to goodness recommendation...

There's a feat called tashalatoran in Secrets of sarlona. It lets you stack levels of a single psionic class with monk for purposes of flurry of blows and unarmed damage, if I remember correctly. The build is:

Monk 2/Psychic warrior 1, take Tashalatoran, continue in psychic warrior. You get every single thing a monk gets that is good, and a huge stack of free bonus goodies. More support, more damage, more control, in a single elegant package. If you allow flaws, you can even still take apprentice spellcaster.




Final note: My optimization chops are.... pretty strong. I really think that maybe you should read up a little bit on what "caraazzzzzzy combo wizards" actually do, and how they actually work, before assuming you grok them. Likewise with the power tier system.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-19, 02:28 AM
UMD Monk Build:

Expert level 5

Feats:
Skill Focus: Craft Manuscript
Skill Focus: K. Religion
Skill Focus: UMD

Skills:

Craft: Manuscript
Decipher Script
K. Arcana
K. History
K. Religion
K. The Planes
UMD

sofawall
2009-08-19, 02:35 AM
No. No no no. Oh gods stop right now before Giacomo sees this thread.


Hahahahahaha....

Oh wait, you're serious. Let me laugh harder.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

Both are what I immediately thought. I actually checked the thread starter to make sure it wasn't Giacomo.


blaster wizards are more helpful than the crazy combo wizards because we can't sit around and wait for spells the be replenished becayse one combat uses them all up just for an instant win.

Wait, what? Wizards can use anywhere from one to three spells in a combat, and still utterly destroy and chance the enemy has of winning. A blaster wizard, without using "crazy combo"s will almost certainly use up better/more spell slots than a GOD wizard.

Kurald Galain
2009-08-19, 02:35 AM
My plan is to sit in the back with various scrolls and wands, buffing and healing where needed, and occasionally punching baddies if I absolutely need to.

Yeah, that's not very monkish. Here's a fun fact: did you know that the monk class is the single worst PHB class for the UMD skill? Yup, that's right. That's because every other class (and most not in the PHB) either have (1) UMD as a class skill, (2) more charisma synergy, and/or (3) actual spellcasting so that you need UMD less.

If you want to sit in the back with various scrolls and wands, play a bard. Heck, play a rogue - it'll make you all that much better at punching people when you need to. Play an artificer if your DM lets you.

sofawall
2009-08-19, 02:39 AM
Fighter fulfills none of that, but is less MAD anyway.

He can even take the feat for +2 if he really wants to. He has enough Fighter feats to not care.

EDIT: Isn't there a feat that gives a you a skill as a class skill? Also, skill focus, because the fighter has feats to spare.

Also, Barbarian is also really bad, but again, suffers from far less MAD.

EDIT2: I'd say three worst are Monk, Barbarian and Fighter, in that order.

Yes, Monk is the worst.

Enguhl
2009-08-19, 03:47 AM
Sofawall: I said with my groups play style, that's the way it goes.

Kurald Galain: Add combat between "My" and "plan".

Pharaoh's Fist: Still trying to keep the crazy kung fu skills.

Ghost_warlock: I'll just take a feat that lets me take the skill as a class skill. One less feat for monk abilities at level, I'll take that.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-19, 03:49 AM
Are you deadset on the Monk class, rather than the martial artist character concept?

kpenguin
2009-08-19, 04:01 AM
Well, if you're willing to go against the consensus of nearly the entire RP Games board... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704)

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-19, 04:03 AM
If you are dead set on this kind of character (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704)...might as well use the guide that one man tries to defend vs the whole forums on this exact kind of character.

Already linked to.

kpenguin
2009-08-19, 04:05 AM
It deserves double linkage, for Giacomo's sake.

If a man walks in ordering exactly what is on the shelf, even if said product is horribly defective, we should always direct him down that aisle.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-19, 04:12 AM
And pick his pockets. And steal his car. And delete the contact list on his cellphone. And seduce his girlfriend.

For double fun, you should consider linking to the reposted guide on Gleemax after it comes back online.

Treantmonk's comments are hilarious.

warmachine
2009-08-19, 05:13 AM
Your group's play style needs explanation because if they get into dire combat situations, you need a character that can go 'nova', meaning burning high powers in a short time. This means spellcaster. Also, healing others whilst using a move action to move to the person in trouble, not taking out a scroll. This means a spellcaster, particularly Cleric. Applying buffs as soon as possible, such as Freedom of Movement to the Fighter who is being mauled by a hideous grapple monster. Similarly, this means spellcaster. Wading into melee because the front line is overloaded. Monk and Cleric can do that.

I'm a Tactician roleplayer and I favour the Cleric class precisely because it's good at "sit in the back with various scrolls and wands, buffing and healing where needed, and occasionally punching [or rather whacking] baddies if I absolutely need to." Plus, you can support with tricks like Silence to force enemy spellcasters to move out of position.

Worse, YOUR play style needs explanation. "Sit in the back" means you rarely show your "crazy kung fu secret power ftw". Various expansion books have all sorts of crazy kung fu powers ftw, such as running on the walls, but what's the point of making them your signature shticks if you don't run around and use them? "Crazy kung fu secret power ftw" and "wester[n] stylized"? Is this not a style contradiction? You can either be a sensible buffer or a crazy powergamer ftw. Combining these can't work.

Freelance Henchman
2009-08-19, 06:11 AM
Please play a Giaco-Monk as described in the guide and report back here how it went.

Kurald Galain
2009-08-19, 06:22 AM
Please play a Giaco-Monk as described in the guide and report back here how it went.

For what it's worth, the one currently being played in the Test of Spite has died in the first combat encounter, then died again in the second, and has had four or five instances of his wands shorting out (because rolling an 1 for UMD is not good).

kamikasei
2009-08-19, 06:41 AM
Never mind the combat strength, or lack thereof, of monks - it seems obvious to me that if your character is supposed to be someone who buffs his allies with magic and can defend himself in unarmed combat in a pinch, then it's the buffing with magic that should be the core of the build and the unarmed combat side of things dealt with via items and feats.

The way you're going about this is akin to saying "I want a guy who fights in heavy armor with a big sword, but has a couple of self-buffing spells" - and building him as a wizard with a single level of fighter.

Freelance Henchman
2009-08-19, 06:43 AM
For what it's worth, the one currently being played in the Test of Spite has died in the first combat encounter, then died again in the second, and has had four or five instances of his wands shorting out (because rolling an 1 for UMD is not good).

Oh. Can you give a link to the test? And is this using those partially charged wands?

paddyfool
2009-08-19, 06:55 AM
Here's my honest to goodness recommendation...

There's a feat called tashalatoran in Secrets of sarlona. It lets you stack levels of a single psionic class with monk for purposes of flurry of blows and unarmed damage, if I remember correctly. The build is:

Monk 2/Psychic warrior 1, take Tashalatoran, continue in psychic warrior. You get every single thing a monk gets that is good, and a huge stack of free bonus goodies. More support, more damage, more control, in a single elegant package. If you allow flaws, you can even still take apprentice spellcaster.




Final note: My optimization chops are.... pretty strong. I really think that maybe you should read up a little bit on what "caraazzzzzzy combo wizards" actually do, and how they actually work, before assuming you grok them. Likewise with the power tier system.


This. Monk 2 is OK, and this is a great way to build from there. After level two, forget it.

Human Paragon 3
2009-08-19, 07:04 AM
How about Monk/Cleric/Enlightened Fist (complete divine)? This way you are a monk and advance monk abilities while also making you even better at buffing your allies. You don't even need many cleric levels to qualify for it.

It's a monk that can cast cleric spells! What more could you want for your crazy kung fu brother?

EDIT: I also recommend skill focus in UMD and going into Exemplar at level 10 for more big skill bonuses and the ability to always take 10 on UMD checks. As mentioned above, rolling a 1 sucks.

Kurald Galain
2009-08-19, 07:05 AM
Oh. Can you give a link to the test? And is this using those partially charged wands?

Linky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116095).

No partial wands, I believe they had been vetoed by the DM. For what it's worth, he has so far used an average of 4.5 wand charges per encounter.

paddyfool
2009-08-19, 07:08 AM
EDIT: I also recommend skill focus in UMD and going into Exemplar at level 10 for more big skill bonuses and the ability to always take 10 on UMD checks. As mentioned above, rolling a 1 sucks.

An alternative for UMD builds is to try to get access to a lucky re-roll somehow (via luck domain, luck sword, that human-only feat, or possibly all three - do they stack?). You need it more than most.

Myou
2009-08-19, 07:28 AM
Has anyone suggested the Unarmed Swordsage yet? It's actually good, unlike the monk, and it can hardly have less synergy with UMD.

mikej
2009-08-19, 07:41 AM
How about Monk/Cleric/Enlightened Fist (complete divine)?

I think you're refering to Sacred Fist. Enlightened Fist is the arcane opposite found in the Complete Arcane.

This thread is going to turn out fantastic.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-19, 07:55 AM
Oh. Can you give a link to the test? And is this using those partially charged wands?

He was last to die in the third encounter - but was arguably the first victim in that he seems to have been Charmed at the beginning of the encounter, and was manipulated by the enemy throughout.

Freelance Henchman
2009-08-19, 08:05 AM
He was last to die in the third encounter - but was arguably the first victim in that he seems to have been Charmed at the beginning of the encounter, and was manipulated by the enemy throughout.

That sounds actually worse than just dieing first. Congratulations, you just joined the ranks of the enemy now.

Doc Roc
2009-08-19, 08:27 AM
To be fair, Saph is basically the Hannibal Lector of GMs. Suave, intelligent, lays out a nice table, but there's nothing on the stove and she's looking at you sort of strange. I lay out the cheat-sheet for the encounters and he runs them. It's been pretty vicious so far.


I want to clarify something:

In non-core, the Giamonk actually has a chance to function. Not overwhelmingly well, but it can be done. Things like the Kung Fu Genius feat from dragon compendium, ways to add UMD as a class skill, and a wider variety of excellent low cost wand options make it more viable. However, it's still the long road to the valley of sorrows.

I'm fine with it in the general sense, and if you play a low-power game with ultra-casual players, I just want you to understand that it won't actually be particularly pleasant. I've statted out a bunch of builds as part of my examination of Giacomo's argument and :: shrugs ::

Guys, CO isn't about giving someone what you want, or forcing them to play to The Right Build. There are optimal builds. They are a lot of fun to play, in my experience. But that's not what this is about. This is about a dude who rolls in asking for a monk build because he's interested in playing a monk just this once. And you ridicule him for it openly. This is not okay. Sure, what he's doing is probably relatively close to stupid. But it's his table, his friends, his game. Our duty, in so far as we have one, is to make him feel welcome, acquaint him swiftly with the issues inherent in his pursuit, and then do our best to fulfill in general terms his request, if we feel up to it.


In summary, our "duty" isn't to repeat the same excellent but unwanted suggestions over and over. He doesn't want to play unarmed swordsage. It perplexes me, sure, frustrates me, sure, but it's his character sheet. Sometimes, you want a joke-ish build, or you want to learn by doing.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-19, 08:27 AM
Hahahahahaha....

Oh wait, you're serious. Let me laugh harder.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

As mean as that is, I have to agree.



+1 to Rogue, Factotum, or Cleric. -9000 for Monk with UMD ranks.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-19, 08:30 AM
In summary, our "duty" isn't to repeat the same excellent but unwanted suggestions over and over.
May we repeat new but unwanted suggestions?

Sliver
2009-08-19, 08:30 AM
For what it's worth, the one currently being played in the Test of Spite has died in the first combat encounter, then died again in the second, and has had four or five instances of his wands shorting out (because rolling an 1 for UMD is not good).

He has two wands of mage armor, and once rolled 1 for both..
And now he is dominated after the whole party got killed by shadows (that didn't try to attack him, not because he is that good)

Doc Roc
2009-08-19, 08:31 AM
As long as you honestly think they're helpful from the OP's perspective. It's not a great plan to throw good money after bad, is part of what I'm saying.

Kurald Galain
2009-08-19, 08:32 AM
To be fair, Saph is basically the Hannibal Lector of GMs. Suave, intelligent, lays out a nice table, but there's nothing on the stove and he's looking at you sort of strange. I lay out the cheat-sheet for the encounters and he runs them.

Er, last time I checked Saph was a woman :smallwink:

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-19, 08:32 AM
He has two wands of mage armor, and once rolled 1 for both..
And now he is dominated after the whole party got killed by shadows (that didn't try to attack him, not because he is that good)

He isn't dominated, he did attack the enemy eventually, after everyone else died.

... dammit, if you're spoiling things, spoiler tag them. I am in that game!


Er, last time I checked Saph was a woman :smallwink:

And how!

Kurald Galain
2009-08-19, 08:34 AM
This is about a dude who rolls in asking for a monk build because he's interested in playing a monk just this once.
To be fair, it's also about a dude who wants to "sit in the back with various scrolls and wands, buffing and healing where needed, and occasionally punching baddies if [he]I absolutely need[s] to". So based on the OP, suggesting him a build that can actually sit in the back to buff and heal effectively is fair game.



He isn't dominated, he did attack the enemy eventually, after everyone else died.
Interestingly, in character you have no way of knowing that he did attack the enemy eventually, because nobody was alive to see it. :smallbiggrin:

Human Paragon 3
2009-08-19, 08:35 AM
Yes, I meant Sacred Fist. I think it's the best way for the OP to go, since he really wants a monk that can buff and kung-fu fight when need be.

Doc Roc
2009-08-19, 08:39 AM
Er, last time I checked Saph was a woman :smallwink:

Meant to leave the pronoun ungendered, oops!

Telonius
2009-08-19, 08:41 AM
Sacred Fist with the Magic domain was my second thought as well (after Giacomonk). If you're looking to play Father Punchy McIrish, it should give you just about everything you want.

Doc Roc
2009-08-19, 08:43 AM
To be fair, it's also about a dude who wants to "sit in the back with various scrolls and wands, buffing and healing where needed, and occasionally punching baddies if [he]I absolutely need[s] to". So based on the OP, suggesting him a build that can actually sit in the back to buff and heal effectively is fair game.


In a normal situation, I agree with you whole-heartedly. Monk is a awful class, the progeny of bitter nightmare-spew. Even played to its strengths, it is relatively weak. This man wants a monk, and will take nothing else. Here's what I'd consider a rough-rough but playable build:

Monk 4/Cleric 1/Sacred Fist 10
Loses too many caster levels to really be any good at all, but the cleric level is verifiably just a dip to qualify for sacred fist. In other words, it's still a monk. Also, you can snag the magic domain to insure that you actually don't even need UMD for wands anymore. You'll still want it for scrolls, unfortunately unless your GM rules that sacred fist increases your effective cleric levels for domain granted powers. Even so, this is effectively a free lunch given how awesome sacred fist is IF you presume it doesn't lose caster levels. Which the text supports.

Let me repeat that.

Granted Power: Use scrolls, wands, and other devices with spell completion or spell trigger activation as a wizard of one-half your cleric level (at least 1st level). For the purpose of using a scroll or other magic device, if you are also a wizard, actual wizard levels and these effective wizard levels stack.

This lets you reduce your MAD pretty heavily, by using and abusing low level buffs that you can cast yourself. What's the starting level.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-19, 08:48 AM
Interestingly, in character you have no way of knowing that he did attack the enemy eventually, because nobody was alive to see it. :smallbiggrin:

Blame Giamoco, he didn't spoiler his "I attack the Cleric." action, or his rolls.

What Pharaoh doesn't actually know (just suspects very strongly) is that she is in fact the enemy, except of course for the part where Saph immediately went into long spoiler blocks with giamoco and therefore, she is assumably still alive. Also, the part where Tide just told him Giamoco was dominated by someone, and she seems the most likely culprit from what happened prior to his death.

Doc Roc
2009-08-19, 08:50 AM
I never said anything to that effect, Kelpy.

SoD
2009-08-19, 08:51 AM
One level in Human Paragon lets you pick a skill which is forever considered in class for you.

Doc Roc
2009-08-19, 08:53 AM
's been said three times, along with a one dip in factotum+able learner which is like that only better in every way. :S

:smallsigh:

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-19, 09:09 AM
Blame Giamoco, he didn't spoiler his "I attack the Cleric." action, or his rolls.

What Pharaoh doesn't actually know (just suspects very strongly) is that she is in fact the enemy, except of course for the part where Saph immediately went into long spoiler blocks with giamoco and therefore, she is assumably still alive. Also, the part where Tide just told him Giamoco was dominated by someone, and she seems the most likely culprit from what happened prior to his death.

And Snape kills Dumbledore, I suppose?

Doc Roc
2009-08-19, 09:27 AM
And Snape kills Dumbledore, I suppose?

Yeah, but he uses a phoenix down on him, unlike Aeris, and then they sort of run off screen and there are..... Noises.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-19, 09:36 AM
I never said anything to that effect, Kelpy.

Sorry, Ancient Realms. I wasn't sure who said it, I only noticed it when Pharaoh quoted it.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-19, 09:40 AM
Meant to leave the pronoun ungendered, oops!

Then you were correct. "He" is proper English when you don't know someone's gender. Calling them "S/he" is improper slang, and being forced into the language.

It's the reason I refer to V with a masculine pronoun, because that's how English is supposed to work. It functions differently with different things (ships and other vessels are female, for example), but when the subject is human you should default to the masculine pronoun until corrected by the subject or those familiar with the subject.

Doc Roc
2009-08-19, 09:57 AM
my intent was to write it as 'e's and completely obviate the gendering portion of the pronoun, rather than give it both gender. That always seemed silly to me... :) In any case, I think I've rendered as much help as I can here.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-19, 09:58 AM
Yeah, but he uses a phoenix down on him, unlike Aeris, and then they sort of run off screen and there are..... Noises.

Mind Crush!

Not for Snape/Dumbledore, but for bringing up memories of Aeris.

Poor Aeris. You shall be avenged!

oxinabox
2009-08-19, 10:25 AM
I don't know if this has been said but:
I think theres a Feat in Races of destiny that allows you to make on nonclass skill a clas skill for all your lvls.

otherwise: lvl 2 of the Human Paragon from Arcana Unearthed. i think does that.

Otherwise, warlock (Takes a fair number of lvls but...)
UMD class skill.
Take 10 on UMD, even if threatened. that means auto success on use wand if you have 10 in it (DC 20 no matter what wand)
I'ld advice the first two though, t hat way you can still be a amonk.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-19, 10:32 AM
Mind Crush!

Not for Snape/Dumbledore, but for bringing up memories of Aeris.

Poor Aeris. You shall be avenged!

http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/finalfantasy7-multikill.jpg

Have fun!

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-19, 10:36 AM
May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your nether regions.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-19, 10:39 AM
May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your nether regions.

They're gonna have to get in line then. Those were sold to Slaanesh a couple of years ago, and he loaned them to Nurgle.

Frosty
2009-08-19, 10:41 AM
Can somone link to the Giamonk guide on gleemax now so I have it when it comes back up?

Freelance Henchman
2009-08-19, 11:02 AM
Can somone link to the Giamonk guide on gleemax now so I have it when it comes back up?

Google cache has parts of it I think, searching for "giamonk" found this cached page for example: http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:EWeRjW-hBXgJ:forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D1032986%26page%3D8+giamonk&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=de

Eldariel
2009-08-19, 11:17 AM
Poor Aeris. You shall be avenged!

Hmm, haven't we all already avenged her...y'know, with certain monster dead and all.

warmachine
2009-08-19, 12:20 PM
In summary, our "duty" isn't to repeat the same excellent but unwanted suggestions over and over. He doesn't want to play unarmed swordsage. It perplexes me, sure, frustrates me, sure, but it's his character sheet. Sometimes, you want a joke-ish build, or you want to learn by doing.
But it is our duty to make sure he has fun by whatever he thinks is fun. He wants "kung fu secret power ftw" and a Monk has a huge choice of cool powers ftw. He also wants to sit in the back, thus making his cool powers idle. That's the opposite of "kung fu secret power ftw". He also wants to buff and heal but with a Monk, that means burning a feat to have UMD as a class skill instead of a "kung fu secret power ftw". And consuming huge amounts of cash on scrolls and wands instead of buying magic items that grant kung fu powers ftw. Also, UMD is unreliable, so the character's abillity to buff and heal will be sporadic and sucky. He will spend lots of rounds trying to get his damn wands to work when his allies need his support now.

Instead of a support/superpower hybrid, he has a character that sucks at both. This means he will not have fun. It is our duty to dissuade him from ideas where he will not have fun. Unless he thinks being ineffective is fun and he's not telling us.

Now, the Sacred Fist idea looks good but it still works by dumping the need for UMD. Even with this, for the player to have fun by his meaning of the word, we must still say "Dump UMD!"

Kelpstrand
2009-08-19, 12:39 PM
Look, you want to be someone who hangs out in the back, casts buffs, but can fight when enemies close.

That's a Cleric.

You want to have cool powers ftw? That's a Cleric.

You want to blow all your money on scrolls for no discernible reason? That's any class, but Cleric also does that best with the Magic domain.

He says he wants to be a back seat buffer. It's not out of line to suggest he play a class with actual buffing ability. Which literally every non Monk class does better or equal to the Monk.

sadi
2009-08-19, 01:54 PM
Know its not 3.5, but you could try to convince your dm to allow you to take cosmopolatin from 3.0 frcs , pick a skill , its now a class skill and you get a +2 bonus to it. Not exactly overpowered so it shouldn't be that hard to convince.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-19, 01:55 PM
3.0 material is still valid unless it's been rewritten/updated in 3.5.

AstralFire
2009-08-19, 01:57 PM
Cosmopolitan was.

sadi
2009-08-19, 02:56 PM
Cosmo went from that to , racial requirements and now gives +2 to 3 specific skills. I tried to find something that gave either umd or spellcraft as a class skill in 3.5 and had no luck. The only other option is taking able learner as a human for half cost cross skills.

Doc Roc
2009-08-19, 03:53 PM
>.<


That would be, for the fifth time, apprentice: spellcaster from DMG II, which gives both as class skills and supplies other interesting and excellent benefits. As soon as gleemax comes back up, I'm going to mirror a bunch of guides over here with author permission, and see if we can get a look-up system stickied. It'd save so much trouble.

derfenrirwolv
2009-08-19, 04:00 PM
You can pick up two levels of rogue, then X levels of monk. That will let you max out use magic device, but you've got the skill points to pay 2 per level to do it.

Doc Roc
2009-08-19, 05:17 PM
{scrubbed}

SlyGuyMcFly
2009-08-19, 05:37 PM
http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/finalfantasy7-multikill.jpg


That is both horrible and awesome at the same time.

T.G. Oskar
2009-08-19, 05:44 PM
>.<


That would be, for the fifth time, apprentice: spellcaster from DMG II, which gives both as class skills and supplies other interesting and excellent benefits. As soon as gleemax comes back up, I'm going to mirror a bunch of guides over here with author permission, and see if we can get a look-up system stickied. It'd save so much trouble.

Hmm...

Monk, Hidden Talent (for Precognition), Apprentice: Spellcaster (for UMD as a class skill), going the Sacred Path of Wee Jas, and mostly devoting to have max ranks in UMD, with a decent Charisma, and a 1/2 Monk class level + 3 bonus to UMD checks, which by 10th level means you can auto-activate anything, even a scroll, by taking 1?

Sounds like something Gia might want to have a look. Though, mostly human-only (or Strongheart Halfling only), or mostly feat-based.

erikun
2009-08-19, 06:20 PM
It's probably already been mentioned, but Ascetic Mage (Complete Adventurer) uses CHA for the Monk's bonus AC and abilities. Not too big of a change, but it will let you synergize with Use Magic Device a bit better.

If you're LG, you can take a couple of levels in Paladin. Not terribly practical, but adding +CHA to saves and some Lay on Hands to complement your healing/buffing could be useful. You'd probably want to wait until low-mid levels, since you need to take all the Pally levels at once, and don't want to interrupt your Monk bonuses (what they are) at lower levels.

Sorcerer and/or Bard might also be a nice multiclass, both for some spells and free uses of low levels wands. (No need to UMD them, then.)

Try to get cozy with the party Artificer, or the Wizard/Cleric with Craft Wand. See if they'll give/sell you their used wands. That, or make friends with an NPC crafter who may give you a discount. You'll be spending a lot of money on wands, which is going to hurt when you try to afford a robe of armor, or helm of brilliance, so good luck.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-19, 06:32 PM
Skill Knowledge feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/alternativeSkillSystems.htm#skillKnowledge). Problem solved.

Doc Roc
2009-08-19, 06:42 PM
Generally not allowed in my experience, as it's from a completely different skill system, which is an utter shame.

Enguhl
2009-08-19, 08:34 PM
Fax: Awesome

Most everyone: Not to be rude or anything, and I appreciate the... help(?), but I wasn't looking for alternative builds.

To a few: Outright mocking my choice of character, whether it seems a bad choice to you or not, is not something most people look well upon. It's fine to tell me you think its a bad choice, offering alternatives like other people is fine, but straight up laughing or belittling my choices is just rude.

On monday I'll be playing this character, so I'll get back to you all on how it works out.
Spoiler alert: It will be awesome.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-19, 08:42 PM
To a few: Outright mocking my choice of character, whether it seems a bad choice to you or not, is not something most people look well upon. It's fine to tell me you think its a bad choice, offering alternatives like other people is fine, but straight up laughing or belittling my choices is just rude.


You do realize that your aims and goals make no sense, though?


My concept: Play a monk, wester stylized though still using the PHB stats saying I trained in self defense so I could travel the world spreading happy faces (and gathering knowledge, scrolls, spreading the word of my diety? I don't know yet, but I'll get to it) and not get roughed up.
My plan is to sit in the back with various scrolls and wands, buffing and healing where needed, and occasionally punching baddies if I absolutely need to. Unfortunately monks don't get UMD making this a difficult character to make effective.

Your goals:

1. Western Monk, ala St. Anthony perhaps, who still does kung fu. Ok, some monks did do that, Friar Tuck being an example of a monk who did know how to fight, so this isn't too bad.
2. Travel world spreading "happy faces", spreading word of deity, and gathering scrolls. This is a decent RP thing. Nothing bad so far.
3. Not get roughed up. Great goal for all characters.
4. Sit in the back buffing and healing with scrolls and wands. Here's the problem: To be good at UMDing things, you have to invest skill points and feats into this tactic, restricting your ability to
5. Occassionally punch baddies if you absolutely need to. By focusing several feats, skill points, and lots of money into UMD and consumables, you will be behind both in wealth and in combat abilities. You also won't be good at
6. Buffing, since wands have short durations for spells, low caster levels (vulnerable to dispeling), and you will fail to activate a lot of times, resulting in wasted actions during combat.

To see how this kind of monk would actually work, see Giacomo's Guide, or check his progress in the test dungeon he's currently in.

If you're ok with that, there's not much more I can say.


Spoiler alert: It will be awesome.
And Rosebud is the sled!

Roland St. Jude
2009-08-19, 08:56 PM
...
To a few: Outright mocking my choice of character, whether it seems a bad choice to you or not, is not something most people look well upon. It's fine to tell me you think its a bad choice, offering alternatives like other people is fine, but straight up laughing or belittling my choices is just rude....

Sheriff of Moddingham: I agree. There's a level of civility on this forum that's a bit higher than that. I like to think it's by tradition and community preference, but it's also by rule, if need be. Please be civil to other posters.

Doc Roc
2009-08-19, 09:08 PM
In a lot of ways, I worry that I've become "Stop-having-Fun, Guys" Guy*.... But even so, St. Jude, I'm going to be honest, I've never felt like most posters thought of me in a civil way. I wonder what that means, then? Probably nothing.


* Also known as GutsMan.

Faulty
2009-08-20, 12:24 AM
Then you were correct. "He" is proper English when you don't know someone's gender. Calling them "S/he" is improper slang, and being forced into the language.

It's the reason I refer to V with a masculine pronoun, because that's how English is supposed to work. It functions differently with different things (ships and other vessels are female, for example), but when the subject is human you should default to the masculine pronoun until corrected by the subject or those familiar with the subject.

Languages change so frequently over time that invoking proper English in the case of something like this is pointless. There's no objective reason to prefer refering to unknown individuals as "he", "she" or "they" as long as it's comprehensible and consistent.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-20, 12:59 AM
Languages change so frequently over time that invoking proper English in the case of something like this is pointless. There's no objective reason to prefer refering to unknown individuals as "he", "she" or "they" as long as it's comprehensible and consistent.

Not to mention the 'proper English' was decided in an unabashedly sexist time period, so if someone was worth talking about they were a he. To claim that it's wrong for people to rebrand as he/she or (s)he is like saying it's wrong to for racial groups to redefine racial slurs as not acceptable. It's an obvious political tactic with an obvious political motive and it's probably even 'right' in a moral sense to do so. Grammer nazi's who like their proper English too much to see the actual motive for rebranding should probably be the last people's opinion we should ask whether we should change.