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View Full Version : Making Skill Focus better...mkII



Frosty
2009-08-19, 02:19 AM
Building upon what I had written up previously...where people still thought the feat wasn't good enough except for pre-reqs, I came up another improvement to Skill Focus. Tell me what you think.

Skill Focus, in addition to making the skill a Class Skill for you forever, gives you a +3 bonus if you have 1 through 10 ranks in the skill. It gives you a +5 bonus if you have 11 through 17 ranks. It gives you a +7 bonus if you have 18-23 ranks.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-19, 02:30 AM
Perhaps it should let you Take Ten on the skill?

Kurald Galain
2009-08-19, 02:38 AM
The main problem with skill focus is that it trades you a rare resource (a feat slot) for a common one (a bunch of skill points, essentially).

Having it make a class skill makes it worth taking in certain specialized builds. How high a bonus it gives really isn't that important.

Frosty
2009-08-19, 02:44 AM
The main problem with skill focus is that it trades you a rare resource (a feat slot) for a common one (a bunch of skill points, essentially).

Having it make a class skill makes it worth taking in certain specialized builds. How high a bonus it gives really isn't that important.

Specialized builds like Monk/Duskblade/Ur-Priest/Sacred Fist or Truenamer? :smallamused:

Also good for Spellcraft I suppose since you always want it as high as possible to cast Epic Spells.

Eloel
2009-08-19, 02:58 AM
Make it let you 'take 10' at any point. 'Take 12' when you can normally take 10. And 'take 20' takes half the time. In addition to, say, bonus equal to 1/4 of your ranks.

Frosty
2009-08-19, 11:33 PM
Make it let you 'take 10' at any point. 'Take 12' when you can normally take 10. And 'take 20' takes half the time. In addition to, say, bonus equal to 1/4 of your ranks.

Umm...then who wouldn't take it for UMD?

BobVosh
2009-08-19, 11:37 PM
Umm...then who wouldn't take it for UMD?

A bard? He wouldn't really need it.

I like pathfinders. +3 until level 11 where it is a +6. Since you can always do one for one even on nonclass skills it basically makes it a class skill until it is better than one.

elliott20
2009-08-19, 11:38 PM
"UMD: it's better than an entire class full of features"

Myrmex
2009-08-20, 01:23 AM
Why not let skill focus work be a +2 bonus on any 3 skills or something, that increases to +6 by level 20? Most skills work in conjunction with others (hide and move silent, bluff and sense motive, etc).

Mongoose87
2009-08-20, 01:25 AM
Umm...then who wouldn't take it for UMD?

I donno...Wizards?

Riffington
2009-08-20, 07:14 AM
Umm...then who wouldn't take it for UMD?

This is a problem with UMD, which should be fixed under separate cover.
First, UMD should not be simultaneously a skill and better than other skills. Ok, fine, fix that somehow.
Now, Skill Focus ought to be a valuable feat for any character that really likes using a specific skill. Pathfinder's probably isn't bad...

Zeta Kai
2009-08-20, 07:41 AM
UMD can be fixed by simply raising the DCs by 20-50% across the board, but we're not here to fix UMD.

As for Skill Focus, I'm already seeing a lot of good ideas here, those that agree with my sentiments on the issue. It should do the following:

A +5 untyped bonus on all checks involving that skill.
The ability to take 10 on all checks of that skill.
Having that skill as a permanent class skill, regardless of class.

That alone should making it worth taking. Then again, I'm of the opinion that the other skill bonus feats (Alertness, Persuasive, Stealthy, & the like) should grant a +3 bonus at least, so...

Frosty
2009-08-20, 12:15 PM
So Take 10 eh? That doesn't sound like a bad idea...

The feats that give bonuses to 2 skills should give a +4 to each skill once you hit certain levels. For a total of +8.

truemane
2009-08-20, 12:22 PM
I like the idea of making a non-class skill a Class Skill. Like the 3.0 Feat Cosmopolitan. That DOES mess up a lot of Prestige Class progressions, though, and so that's something you'd have to watch out for as a DM on a case-by-case basis.

I'd be fine with being able to take 10 under any circumstance unless the Skill doesn't allow you to take 10 (like UMD). In that case, perhaps the bonus could be higher.

Altough I like a scaling bonus, I agree the the actual bonus isn't all that important, except at lower levels. A Ring of Whatever Skill +3 is only, what, 9,000 gp? I wish all feats could be purchased so cheaply.

Maybe give it a bonus of +1 per level? So you effectively get another skill point? Too much?

Jack Zander
2009-08-20, 12:31 PM
Maybe give it a bonus of +1 per level? So you effectively get another skill point? Too much?

Not a +1 bonus per level, that would just about double your total modifier. Instead, the feat automatically maxes out your ranks each level for that skill, so you can spend your skill points elsewhere.

Or a feat that gives you a number of skill points equal to your level, +1 per level after that (like improved toughness).

Eloel
2009-08-20, 12:35 PM
Or a feat that gives you a number of skill points equal to your level, +1 per level after that (like improved toughness).

Nymph's Kiss sort of does that, with other bonuses.

Optimystik
2009-08-20, 12:43 PM
Maybe give it a bonus of +1 per level? So you effectively get another skill point? Too much?

That's effectively "Add your level to the skill check." Whether its overpowered or not probably depends on the skill in question, I suppose.

I like the Take 10/12 idea.

Johel
2009-08-20, 01:09 PM
The main problem with skill focus is that it trades you a rare resource (a feat slot) for a common one (a bunch of skill points, essentially).

Having it make a class skill makes it worth taking in certain specialized builds. How high a bonus it gives really isn't that important.

A 6th level rogue using "Improve Feint" might disagree with the "common resource" point of vue. Yes, you got plenty of skill points as a rogue...but you still can't have more ranks in a skill than your level+3. So, instead of 9 in Bluff, our rogue here can get 12, which increase by 33% his chances to get a sneak attack in a duel.

Skill Focus, at low level, is the way to better at something than you should be. Fighters more than anybody can enjoy it. Now, it makes no sence to take it if you know the campaign will bring you 20+ level. But at low-level games, a little +1 in a good thing... and a +3 is a big thing.

Myrmex
2009-08-20, 09:46 PM
A 6th level rogue using "Improve Feint" might disagree with the "common resource" point of vue. Yes, you got plenty of skill points as a rogue...but you still can't have more ranks in a skill than your level+3. So, instead of 9 in Bluff, our rogue here can get 12, which increase by 33% his chances to get a sneak attack in a duel.

Skill Focus, at low level, is the way to better at something than you should be. Fighters more than anybody can enjoy it. Now, it makes no sence to take it if you know the campaign will bring you 20+ level. But at low-level games, a little +1 in a good thing... and a +3 is a big thing.

Improved Feint, outside of core, and with a party, is an extremely poor way to get sneak attack. Even inside of core, HiPS is superior.

Jack Zander
2009-08-20, 10:27 PM
Improved Feint, outside of core, and with a party, is an extremely poor way to get sneak attack. Even inside of core, HiPS is superior.

HiPS isn't a feat, and isn't available until higher levels.

Before your rogue has multiple attacks, improved feint isn't a bad option.

Myrmex
2009-08-21, 01:54 AM
HiPS isn't a feat, and isn't available until higher levels.

Before your rogue has multiple attacks, improved feint isn't a bad option.

You can get HiPS at level 8, but in order to do so, it takes 3 feats. If you aren't allowed to take flaws (not core) or retrain feats (not core) or chaos shuffle them (not core or psychic reformation them (not core), then getting imp. feint means you have to wait even longer to get HiPS.

Simply having a flanking partner is infinitely better than using imp. feint, since that means you can spend your feats on stuff like TWF or the prereqs for shadowdancer. If you have to kill stuff in a non-party situation, and have no flanking better, you can simply UMD a wand of Summon Monster I with a CL of 3. It's fairly cheap, and efficient.

deuxhero
2009-08-21, 07:42 AM
Doesn't Complete Scoundrel allow you to get it for free (or for gold) by doing a pilgramage?

Salvonus
2009-08-21, 08:02 AM
If UMD is a concern with regards to the whole Take 10/add as class skill issue, you could just say that you only get the scaling bonus and none of the extras. :smalltongue: You might want to do the same thing with Truenaming... Although, quite honestly, being able to Take 10 is not an unreasonable boost to the class. :smallwink:

Basing it off ranks seems like a good idea, and quite flavourful to boot. :smallsmile:

truemane
2009-08-21, 08:30 AM
Not a +1 bonus per level, that would just about double your total modifier. Instead, the feat automatically maxes out your ranks each level for that skill, so you can spend your skill points elsewhere.

Thank you, JZ (heh... Jay-Z), that is exactly what I meant. Not a +1 per level, but one rank per level. So you can turn your attentions to some second-tier, 'nice to have' skills.

Part of the trouble is, as someone obliquely suggested, that the benefit needs to scale with level or the feat is never going to work. Power Attack is helpful all the way through your character's progression. Skill Focus is wonderful at levels 1 - 5 or so and then starts to drop off in utility from there.

At 20th Level, that +3 is the proverbial fart in the windstorm.

Which is why I think the automatic take 10 is nice. That can make often-used skills (Like Concentration) always useful without fear of that natural 1 mucking things up. And if the skill was automatically maxed out at no further cost to you, then that other skill you could max out as well would be useful at all levels too.

Emy
2009-08-21, 09:00 AM
I like the idea of making a non-class skill a Class Skill. Like the 3.0 Feat Cosmopolitan. That DOES mess up a lot of Prestige Class progressions, though, and so that's something you'd have to watch out for as a DM on a case-by-case basis.

Take a look at Aereni Focus, from Player's Guide to Eberron. It's basically skill focus that also makes that skill a class skill. Elf only, but you could easily change that.

Jack Zander
2009-08-21, 09:08 AM
You can get HiPS at level 8, but in order to do so, it takes 3 feats. If you aren't allowed to take flaws (not core) or retrain feats (not core) or chaos shuffle them (not core or psychic reformation them (not core), then getting imp. feint means you have to wait even longer to get HiPS.

Simply having a flanking partner is infinitely better than using imp. feint, since that means you can spend your feats on stuff like TWF or the prereqs for shadowdancer. If you have to kill stuff in a non-party situation, and have no flanking better, you can simply UMD a wand of Summon Monster I with a CL of 3. It's fairly cheap, and efficient.

Eh, maybe we've just had different experiences within groups, but when I play a low-level rogue, I need all the bonuses to hit that I can get. If I'm flanking my target at the start of a round, then Improved Feint helps a lot, since not only do I get the +2 flanking, but I also get to attack their flat-footed AC. And it is often enough that our party is spread out enough that I can't get flanking, or we are in a corridor, or the fighter is busy fighting the big ugly that I don't want to be anywhere near, so I take out the mooks one at a time. Also my UMD skill isn't high enough for me to use wands reliably in combat until higher levels.

Clementx
2009-08-21, 09:09 AM
I simply have its bonus increase by one once you put 7, 15, and 23 ranks into the corresponding skill. The same applies to each side of the +2/+2 feats. At lvl20, +6 or +5/+5 looks a lot better for your investment. It still wanes in power, but considering how easy it is to take, that is only fair. As pointed out, it could be replaced by a 7200gp unslotted competence bonus item...or more likely, you would use both.

SF + 7,200gp boosting item for +12 vs 28,800gp for a +12 bonus just from the item.

Frosty
2009-08-21, 12:33 PM
So the consensus is keep the scaling bonuses (I have +3 at ranks 1 through 9, +5 at rank 10, +7 at rank 18), let it become a class skill, AND allow the ability to take 10 whenever you want?

Myrmex
2009-08-21, 01:36 PM
So the consensus is keep the scaling bonuses (I have +3 at ranks 1 through 9, +5 at rank 10, +7 at rank 18), let it become a class skill, AND allow the ability to take 10 whenever you want?

You know, that seems REALLY good, but then, I'm still not sure if I would take skill focus outside of prereqs for PrCs.

For me, skill focus would be more attractive if it gave a scaling bonus to two or three skills at a time.

Frosty
2009-08-21, 02:48 PM
You know, that seems REALLY good, but then, I'm still not sure if I would take skill focus outside of prereqs for PrCs.

For me, skill focus would be more attractive if it gave a scaling bonus to two or three skills at a time.

Still not enough? I don't want to make it too good though so that *everyone* takes it regardless. Maybe it also gives you 3 extra skill points to play with that level?

Zaq
2009-08-22, 01:09 PM
Perhaps have it let you either double your attribute bonus, or let you add another attribute bonus to the skill check in addition to the existing one? This would of course be in addition to the existing +3... I have no idea how balanced that would be, but hey, it's a thought.

Frosty
2009-08-22, 01:52 PM
Perhaps have it let you either double your attribute bonus, or let you add another attribute bonus to the skill check in addition to the existing one? This would of course be in addition to the existing +3... I have no idea how balanced that would be, but hey, it's a thought.

Balanced or not, would it make sense?

Johel
2009-08-22, 05:31 PM
You can get HiPS at level 8, but in order to do so, it takes 3 feats. If you aren't allowed to take flaws (not core) or retrain feats (not core) or chaos shuffle them (not core or psychic reformation them (not core), then getting imp. feint means you have to wait even longer to get HiPS.

Simply having a flanking partner is infinitely better than using imp. feint, since that means you can spend your feats on stuff like TWF or the prereqs for shadowdancer. If you have to kill stuff in a non-party situation, and have no flanking better, you can simply UMD a wand of Summon Monster I with a CL of 3. It's fairly cheap, and efficient.

Point was (if you read) to use it at low-level (1-5, 6 at most).

Don't know what you mean by "HiPS". But if it's not available before the 8th level, that means rogues will just have to run away from fights until then. He'll just be the "face-and-lockpick" of the group. And while that's interesting, that left you out of the battles. So, for low-level campaign, Improved Feint is the way to go.

A wand of Summon Monster 1 (CL1) is 750 gp.
It's three time more expansive to get it at CL3.
It's not cheap, especially since it's not durable.
Also, you need beat DD20 to activate a wand. At level 6, you got 9 in UMD at most. That means you barely have 50% chance to activate the wand. Since it's a standard action, you'll waste half of your turns.

At the same level, your feint will have to beat a DD15 at most. With 9 in Bluff, that's a 75% of success. Also, since it's a move action (thanks Improved Feint), you can feint and attack in the same turn.

The whole point of taking Improve Feint is to give you a cheap and easy to use way to spam the sneak attacks at low-level, making up for the rogue low BAB and (usually) low strength. Most mooks just don't have the BAB, Wisdom or Sence Motive to oppose the feints of a rogue of their level. Skill Focus gives you a boost for this. But again, that's for low-level.

For the feat (Skill Focus) to be worth it at high level, it should grant a bonus that increase with the level.

Myrmex
2009-08-23, 02:01 AM
Point was (if you read) to use it at low-level (1-5, 6 at most).

Don't know what you mean by "HiPS". But if it's not available before the 8th level, that means rogues will just have to run away from fights until then. He'll just be the "face-and-lockpick" of the group. And while that's interesting, that left you out of the battles. So, for low-level campaign, Improved Feint is the way to go.

A wand of Summon Monster 1 (CL1) is 750 gp.
It's three time more expansive to get it at CL3.
It's not cheap, especially since it's not durable.
Also, you need beat DD20 to activate a wand. At level 6, you got 9 in UMD at most. That means you barely have 50% chance to activate the wand. Since it's a standard action, you'll waste half of your turns.

At the same level, your feint will have to beat a DD15 at most. With 9 in Bluff, that's a 75% of success. Also, since it's a move action (thanks Improved Feint), you can feint and attack in the same turn.

The whole point of taking Improve Feint is to give you a cheap and easy to use way to spam the sneak attacks at low-level, making up for the rogue low BAB and (usually) low strength. Most mooks just don't have the BAB, Wisdom or Sence Motive to oppose the feints of a rogue of their level. Skill Focus gives you a boost for this. But again, that's for low-level.

For the feat (Skill Focus) to be worth it at high level, it should grant a bonus that increase with the level.

If you're in a party setting, imp feint is an even BIGGER waste of a feat, since you flank targets. I was talking about outside of a party setting, like if you have to skulk around and stuff. Imp feint also means no TWF, and TWF is where the damage really is, as long as you get your sneak attack (vs something that's grappled, blinded, or flanked).

Johel
2009-08-23, 04:28 AM
If you're in a party setting, imp feint is an even BIGGER waste of a feat, since you flank targets. I was talking about outside of a party setting, like if you have to skulk around and stuff. Imp feint also means no TWF, and TWF is where the damage really is, as long as you get your sneak attack (vs something that's grappled, blinded, or flanked).

Two weapons fighting is a valid point but, as you said, only against an opponent that's already busy with someone else.
That means you're talking about a fight with the party and more specifically a fight where you actually outnumber the enemy. I don't know for your group but personnaly, in most encounters, we are the ones who are outnumbred.

Again, without somebody to help you, how do you get the sneak attacks ? The wand ? Your two hands are busy.
That means you have to use :
First turn :

a move action to sheat one weapon.
a move action to pick the wand.
Second turn :

a standard action to use the wand.
a free action to drop the wand.
a move action to draw a weapon.

Turns 3, 4, 5 :

Full attack with flanking bonus : 2 sneak attacks per turn with -2 to hit.

That means you get up to 6 sneak attacks in 5 turns but you have to endure attacks for at least 2 turns (3 or more if you fail to use the wand). The tactic is worthy against monsters who have lot's of HD but a low BAB and Str (because otherwise, you're dead by the time you can land a blow).
So, it's :

incredibly risky
time-consuming
expansive (12 gp a kill)

Improved Feint :

Turns 1 to 5 :

Move action : Feint
Standard action : Sneak Attack against a reduced AC.

5 turns, up to 5 sneak attack
Mooks are down in 1 or 2 turns. No time wasted.
Big ones take a while to go down but hey, they are not suppose to die easily.
It's free. Below 6th level, chances to fail to place a Feint are lower than chances to fail to use a wand.

So, again, at low-level, if the rogue want to stand on his own in a fight without taking huge risks against big ones or wasting time for mooks, Feint is a good way to do it.

Sophismata
2009-08-23, 04:45 AM
What about:

Skill Focus

Choose a skill. That skill is now a class skill for you. You may always take 10 on this skill (as the Rogue's Skill Mastery) unless the skill specifically forbids it, such as with Use Magic Device. Furthermore, you may take 20 in half the required time.

Myrmex
2009-08-23, 07:30 AM
Two weapons fighting is a valid point but, as you said, only against an opponent that's already busy with someone else.
That means you're talking about a fight with the party and more specifically a fight where you actually outnumber the enemy. I don't know for your group but personnaly, in most encounters, we are the ones who are outnumbred.

Yeah, but in our groups, we play smart. Casters try to identify & neutralize the biggest threats, while the main tanks charge what looks bad and the skirmishers move into flanking positions. Blasting with Evard's Black Tentacles or Glitterdust pretty much always leaves a few things you can tear into like a shook up can of blood soda, since grappled creatures lose their dex bonus, as do blind creatures which = valid target for SA.


Again, without somebody to help you, how do you get the sneak attacks ? The wand ? Your two hands are busy.
That means you have to use :
First turn :

a move action to sheat one weapon.
a move action to pick the wand.
Second turn :

a standard action to use the wand.
a free action to drop the wand.
a move action to draw a weapon.

Turns 3, 4, 5 :

Full attack with flanking bonus : 2 sneak attacks per turn with -2 to hit.


I was thinking more like a SOLO mission, where you stick to the shadows, and only pick a confrontation when you have the advantage, or absolutely have to fight. In which case you just carry the wand out, or use a wand chamber (though it's not core). Wands of produce flame are really terrific, btw, for getting touch attacks. Then you initiate combat with summoning. Unfortunately you have to shout at your wand to make it work. But when you go about using summoned monsters, you wear a gauntlet in the wand hand. Sure, it's 1d3 damage, but the 3d6 from sneak attack totally makes up for it.


That means you get up to 6 sneak attacks in 5 turns but you have to endure attacks for at least 2 turns (3 or more if you fail to use the wand). The tactic is worthy against monsters who have lot's of HD but a low BAB and Str (because otherwise, you're dead by the time you can land a blow).
So, it's :

incredibly risky
time-consuming
expansive (12 gp a kill)

Improved Feint :

Turns 1 to 5 :

Move action : Feint
Standard action : Sneak Attack against a reduced AC.

5 turns, up to 5 sneak attack
Mooks are down in 1 or 2 turns. No time wasted.
Big ones take a while to go down but hey, they are not suppose to die easily.
It's free. Below 6th level, chances to fail to place a Feint are lower than chances to fail to use a wand.

So, again, at low-level, if the rogue want to stand on his own in a fight without taking huge risks against big ones or wasting time for mooks, Feint is a good way to do it.

Or you could just stick with that adventuring party you hang out with, since you can't do it all on your own, and feinting is a huge waste of time and resources. On the off chance that you end up wandering around by yourself without Fighter the flanking buddy, or Wizard who makes everyone clutch at their eyes blindly, I'd say 12 gp a kill and giving up the surprise round for 3 rounds of full sneak attack goodness is worth it. Especially considering you'd have to burn two feats for highly situational stuff with mediocre results.

Johel
2009-08-23, 09:58 AM
Yeah, but in our groups, we play smart...

Asking a spellcaster :
Black Tentacles is a 4th level spell. We are talking low-level here.
But Glitterdust is usually a smart move against mooks, however.

TWF + Gauntlet + wand :
Have you ever tested this ? I may be wrong here but gauntlets dealing unarmed attacks, it would provoke an attack of opportunity.
If yes, then you would also waste a feat to get Improved Unarmed Strike...which will then be the same as getting Improved Feint and using normal weapons.


Or you could just stick with that adventuring party you hang out with, since you can't do it all on your own, and feinting is a huge waste of time and resources. On the off chance that you end up wandering around by yourself without Fighter the flanking buddy, or Wizard who makes everyone clutch at their eyes blindly, I'd say 12 gp a kill and giving up the surprise round for 3 rounds of full sneak attack goodness is worth it. Especially considering you'd have to burn two feats for highly situational stuff with mediocre results.

It's not so much the "3 rounds of full sneak attack goodness" than the "2 rounds of being bashed senseless" that worry me. 6th level rogues have around 30hp. Not a problem if you kill things before they hit you. But standing there with a wand for 2 turns ? Not a good idea.

The two feats are far from wasted, as they give you flexibility.

Against agile opponents, you can get +4 to your AC and still use the feint + sneak attack in the same round. Since they lose their dodge bonus, you don't really feel the -4 to your attack roll while being much more difficult to touch.
Against armored opponents, you just use feint, which grant you the sneak attack.
Against opponents who are immune to feint, you can just boost your AC and fight defensively for a total of +6 AC. Use your move action to retreat slowly toward the party.


The "highly situational" nature of feint is, in fact, usable 90% of the times. Only nonintelligent creatures (read undeads and constructs) are immune to it...and those same creatures are usually immune to sneak attack too, which means rogue is boned anyway against them.

The "mediocre results" are actually exactly the same as TWF + wand...except the rogue doesn't have to waste 2 rounds waiting, fingers crossed so that the wand works, and doesn't have to waste his gold for wands of summoning.
Granted, if everything goes well, a TWF rogue with wand will inflict more damage. But it all goes down to the wand. Also, should the enemy kill the summoned monster, you'll have to waste 2 new rounds. So, sorry, but I prefer average-but-reliable performances than high-but-risky performances.

All things concidered, it makes your rogue independant from others, as he needs neither muscles nor magic to overcome most obstacles.

Frosty
2009-08-23, 01:31 PM
Gauntlets make you armed I believed. It's a weapon.

Myrmex
2009-08-24, 05:41 AM
Asking a spellcaster :
Black Tentacles is a 4th level spell. We are talking low-level here.
But Glitterdust is usually a smart move against mooks, however.

I thought 7th level was considered low level?
Regardless, a summoned monster (from a cleric, druid, wizard- whatever) can also make a very effective grappler. Good form of BC against high will save opponents.


TWF + Gauntlet + wand :
Have you ever tested this ? I may be wrong here but gauntlets dealing unarmed attacks, it would provoke an attack of opportunity.
If yes, then you would also waste a feat to get Improved Unarmed Strike...which will then be the same as getting Improved Feint and using normal weapons.

Attacks with gauntlets are treated as armed attacks, therefore no AoO.


It's not so much the "3 rounds of full sneak attack goodness" than the "2 rounds of being bashed senseless" that worry me. 6th level rogues have around 30hp. Not a problem if you kill things before they hit you. But standing there with a wand for 2 turns ? Not a good idea.

Let me spell it out of for you:

You see an enemy, it does not see you (cause you are being smart and staying in the shadows, yet were not smart enough to stick with the party).

You decide the enemy has to die, and he appears to be a difficult opponent. You UMD the wand. This is the surprise round, you start summoning. The enemy makes its listening check, and goes to investigate. You roll initiative. You should probably win, since your dex is your primary or secondary stat, and, if its core, you probably picked imp. initiative, instead of imp feint, because going first is always worthwhile. Now a summoned creature shows up. It is the enemy's turn (finally). He hits you, maybe twice (if it has a BAB of at least 6, which is unlikely, given that this is "low level" and assuming parity in encounter level with your level). Now you make a full attack. If you have a wand of summon nature's ally, you should get a wolf to try and trip the opponent (it has a form of improved trip).

Remember, the whole idea here is that you are on your own, and will be assumed to be fighting things of an appropriate CR for a lone rogue. A summoned monster should be a little worse than what you will be facing. If something is too strong for you to face on your own, and you can't sneak by it, then either your DM is a jerk, or you did something stupid (like wander off by yourself).


The two feats are far from wasted, as they give you flexibility.

Against agile opponents, you can get +4 to your AC and still use the feint + sneak attack in the same round. Since they lose their dodge bonus, you don't really feel the -4 to your attack roll while being much more difficult to touch.
Against armored opponents, you just use feint, which grant you the sneak attack.
Against opponents who are immune to feint, you can just boost your AC and fight defensively for a total of +6 AC. Use your move action to retreat slowly toward the party.


How is any of this superior than simply flanking with a teammate, or waiting until someone goes blind or grappled?


The "highly situational" nature of feint is, in fact, usable 90% of the times.

Sure, it's usable, but I would rather be two weapon fighting. It is rare when imp. feint is a superior option- typically when you find yourself without a party to assist you in getting sneak attacks. How often does a low level rogue find himself alone, forced to solo monsters with a CR equal to or greater than his character level?

Killer Angel
2009-08-24, 05:57 AM
So the consensus is keep the scaling bonuses (I have +3 at ranks 1 through 9, +5 at rank 10, +7 at rank 18), let it become a class skill, AND allow the ability to take 10 whenever you want?

except for Take 10 on UMD.

Johel
2009-08-24, 12:41 PM
I thought 7th level was considered low level?
Regardless, a summoned monster (from a cleric, druid, wizard- whatever) can also make a very effective grappler. Good form of BC against high will save opponents.

We spoke but of 6th level so far, which is low level as far as I'm concerned. I said previously level 1-5, 6th at most.
7th level is the point where you get the really cool magic stuff and where quality is worth more than quantity (opposed to low-level, where you'll rather face a though enemy than a swarm of weak ones, because HP, spells and other ressources put a serious drain to heroic reckless actions).

As for grappling, I doubt the CR1 monsters of "Summon Monster I" (that was the wand you pointed, remember), with their low strength, can be an effective grapplers or trippers.
"Summon Natural Ally I" has the wolf, as you point it in your post, which get 1 free trip attempt per round. You are right, it's useful. But with a weak +1 on strength check, it will be less effective against most CR3+ monsters (which, for a lone rogue, are already worthy opponent).


Let me spell it out of for you:

You see an enemy, it does not see you (cause you are being smart and staying in the shadows, yet were not smart enough to stick with the party

You decide the enemy has to die, and he appears to be a difficult opponent. You UMD the wand. This is the surprise round, you start summoning. The enemy makes its listening check, and goes to investigate. You roll initiative. You should probably win, since your dex is your primary or secondary stat, and, if its core, you probably picked imp. initiative, instead of imp feint, because going first is always worthwhile. Now a summoned creature shows up. It is the enemy's turn (finally). He hits you, maybe twice (if it has a BAB of at least 6, which is unlikely, given that this is "low level" and assuming parity in encounter level with your level). Now you make a full attack. If you have a wand of summon nature's ally, you should get a wolf to try and trip the opponent (it has a form of improved trip).


Well, you pointed out previously that "wandering alone" is one of the rogue's missions, mainly because the rest of the team isn't that stealthy. It's not being dumb, it's not having a better option.

The wand, as exposed previously, works only 50% of the time at that level because your UMD rank is kinda low. So, at that means 2 results :

Your casting succeeds. You get initiative, wolf attempts a trip and provides a flank anyway. You have to move to engage the enemy. 1 sneak attack only for this turn.
Your casting fails. You wasted surprise round (no easy sneak attack). Next round (1st real round), you spend a standard action using the wand again (probably with success) and getting it back in your belt so you can use the gauntlet to punch because Monster knows where you are, by now, and will attack when his turn comes.


At that point, it really comes down to how long the wolf will stand.
A dumb monster will attack the thing that deals him the most damage ("scary guy with two blades"). Against them, even if the wolf fails all attacks, the tactic is good. +1 for TWF against lone dumb monster with low BAB and low Str, then
A smart monster (at least 11 Int) will just hack the wolf, smile at you and force you to use the wand again...while kicking your ass for 1 round. In the end, you'll win but it would take lot's of time, damage and drain your wand.


Remember, the whole idea here is that you are on your own, and will be assumed to be fighting things of an appropriate CR for a lone rogue. A summoned monster should be a little worse than what you will be facing. If something is too strong for you to face on your own, and you can't sneak by it, then either your DM is a jerk, or you did something stupid (like wander off by yourself).

About the CR of the enemies, I don't know for you, but at 6th level, I don't face lonely CR1 monsters (that's what natural allies and summon monsters are with "Summon .... I", so the summons aren't worse than your enemies : they are puppies against true wolven). At 6th level, lone enemies should be CR 3, sometime CR 4. An ogre is CR3 and is a fairly common opponent.

The only CR 1 I'll face are in group and against them, I don't want to waste time and take risks a summon before running in battle. That would just block one lone bastard while the rest would gang on me. Either I avoid the fight or, if spotted, run away. If I have to fight, I increase my AC (thanks Combat Expertise) while downing them one after another with sneak attacks (thanks Imp. Feint). It get the job done while keeping the odds in my favour. TWF would just make me a soft target, summoning would make me waste attacks and EDIT : and I lost my thoughts, sorry. :smalltongue: so "and on top of that, summoning will just keep one, at most two enemies busy for 3 rounds. The rest will punch me to negative by that time... now that I read it back, it stacks with "TWF would just make me a soft target"


How is any of this superior than simply flanking with a teammate, or waiting until someone goes blind or grappled?

It isn't. The point is, again, to fight on your own because sometime, you have to. It's smart to rely on others. It's stupid to exclusively depend on them.


Sure, it's usable, but I would rather be two weapon fighting. It is rare when imp. feint is a superior option- typically when you find yourself without a party to assist you in getting sneak attacks. How often does a low level rogue find himself alone, forced to solo monsters with a CR equal to or greater than his character level?

When he's scouting (because fighters aren't good at stealth)
When he's gathering informations in town (because it's more efficient to split)
When he's spying (same as one but more risky)
When the party's outnumbered

Last one has already been adressed by Glitterdust but you get my point : more enemies than your party has members. Even a "6 vs 4" encouters is enough to swarms the fighter-type adventurers and forces the rogue to actually fight by himself, either to release pressure or to defend the spellcasters (Priests and Druids can get by but Wizards and Sorcerers are still pretty squishy at 6th level). Probably my weakest argument here but you get my point, I guess.

To sum it all :
TWF + Imp Initiative + Wand + Gauntlet when alone = good when you get a surprise round against lone dumb monsters with low BAB and low Strength. Bonus if they got a low flat-footed AC. Maybe 50% of your encounters.
Combat Expertise + Imp Feint when alone = good against any opponents (well, not undeads or constructs but we are talking rogues, here). Dumb, smart, lonely guy, group of weakies, armored guy, agile guy... Not THE most efficient thing in a specific situation but probably the second best thing in any situation, since it's flexible.
TWF + Imp Initiative + Wand + Gauntlet when teaming = Good against anything, since others provide the flank. Massive damages. Wand is maybe overkill.
Combat Expertise + Imp Feint when teaming = Still effective (you can reduce the AC of the enemy for everyone). Average damage. Flanks are a bonus, not a necessity.

Again, that's "minmax and risky tricks" VS "reliability and flexibility".
When you got 30 hp, you don't want too much risky tricks.