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Acero
2009-08-19, 11:51 AM
the oracle has stated before (cant find the comic. :smallfrown:) that belkar has 1 year to live. however, ni this comic:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html

Belkar himself says "Let's spilt up fpr ANOTHER year..." Another states that one has already passed without seeing the other half of the orrder. so if that is true, its has been much longer than a year since our litle kobold friend (who doesn't wholey believe his own prophecies:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)

declared the little dude's death.

so i state either the prophecy was wrong, (again) ot that Belkar must have a birthday cake to die.

Watcher
2009-08-19, 11:54 AM
These have both been argued. The final verdict (I think) was that if Elan could learn to heal in just a few months, then if they separated for a YEAR, he would master basic math. A year hasn't actually passed.

xelliea
2009-08-19, 11:57 AM
It's only been 6 months, he meens another amount of time I guess.

Lecan
2009-08-19, 01:39 PM
He has 7 weeks from #666 as stated by Roy.

Edit: Also, the Oracle didn't believe his own explanation of how the prophecy had been fulfilled (making fun of people speculating that it had). He believed his own prophecy well enough to have made arrangements for his own resurrection.

Haven
2009-08-19, 01:42 PM
In English, "let's split up" is in the future tense; the only indication is "let", which may be somewhat unfair because the word "split" is conjugated the same in the past, present and future.

Elfin
2009-08-19, 01:45 PM
This really needed another thread.

Xesirin
2009-08-19, 04:30 PM
Well, it has been a long time, and I personally have been known to colloquially refer to the months prior to October as 'the past year' even if we're in October. He amy very well be doing the same thing. :smallcool:

Acero
2009-08-19, 06:41 PM
i am still a newer forumer, and this is the 1st thread adressed to said topic I have seen

Zevox
2009-08-19, 06:56 PM
You're missing a big problem with your logic here. The Oracle's statement was that Belkar would die before the in-comic year was up (i.e. before the next New Year's Day, likely by whatever calendar Roy uses since that's who he was speaking to).

Belkar's comment did not imply that this had occurred, but simply that the group had been separated for about a year (probably at least few months less than that overall, but it's an approximation, not an exact).

You'll also note that the Oracle made his comment months after the group was separated - Roy only started watching the group after learning 3 and a half months had gone by with him thinking it was only a half day or so, and we don't know how much time passed between then and when Haley and Belkar visited the Oracle (after all, Roy initially started watching Elan, Durkon, and V on the ships, then switched over to Azure City, and we have no idea how long it took for Haley and Belkar to go from there to the Oracle, so it could be quite a while).

So no, there is no evidence here that the prophecy is wrong. And given the Oracle's 100% accuracy rate thus far and the fact that his prophecies have all had very direct, obvious fulfillments rather than being elaborate word-games, odds are strong that it won't be wrong.

Zevox

Cracklord
2009-08-19, 07:03 PM
Zevox, these people are not going to learn. The simple fact is, they do not care about logic, they just want Belkar to survive. So they post irrelevan information and act like they've done somthing clever. Ignore them. They might even be right, who cares. It doesn't mean a thing.

I swear, it's worse then the bloody V's gender threads.

Souhiro
2009-08-20, 04:34 AM
Well, I don't want to see as Belkar just survives, but want to see the oracle failing, losing it's powers, becoming a rat, and being snuffed by Belkar's "Smite Puny Kobold"

Just that, nuff' said

theinsulabot
2009-08-20, 06:37 AM
so i state either the prophecy was wrong, (again)

lolwut?

when has the oracle ever been wrong?

Haven
2009-08-20, 06:41 AM
lolwut?

when has the oracle ever been wrong?

Hey, right before Haley got her voice back--did you see a horse with a bow on its head? :smallamused:

TDG
2009-08-20, 06:50 AM
I figured the year that Belkar was talking about was a real-life year, as a nod to the readers, not an in-comic year.

theinsulabot
2009-08-20, 06:50 AM
Hey, right before Haley got her voice back--did you see a horse with a bow on its head? :smallamused:

yes. yes i did. but then again i drink a lot when going over the archives.

Evil DM Mark3
2009-08-20, 06:51 AM
Gee, this makes perfect sense! There is no way that such a grumpy and agrssive little halfling like Belkar would exagerate, or use hyperbole at all.

Cracklord
2009-08-20, 06:57 AM
Well, I don't want to see as Belkar just survives, but want to see the oracle failing, losing it's powers, becoming a rat, and being snuffed by Belkar's "Smite Puny Kobold"

Just that, nuff' said

I am so grateful you don't write the comic, that you'd be willing to waste so much time in the story for petty vengeance.
Belkar is little, not just in size, but in everything. He's a little man, with little goals and little dreams. It's not that he doesn't believe in anything, but that he doesn't make anything of it. Oh, he can slaughter mooks, and think up inventive mental tortures, but at the end of the day he never achieves anything beyond a few half-hearted wisecracks and talking himself up to do something that he'll never actually do. Oh he talks about betraying the party, but he's nothing more then an inconvenience. He's evil because he is too stupid to be anything else, and the one joke he brings to this strip has really gotten old.
He doesn't have a plan, he doesn't think big, he doesn't dream, and evil as he is, he spends more time thinking about it then doing it. And anyone can do that. And that is why Xykon is the big bad, and Belkar is a mid level adventurer who will be dead in six weeks, alone and unloved, and stay that way. Perhaps we'll get lucky, and get a few strips of Quarr tearing apart his soul as he doesn't mention anyone bigger's attention.

Ghastly Epigram
2009-08-20, 07:03 AM
I think the problem is you're putting the emphasis on the wrong word. Belkar isn't saying "Let's split up for ANOTHER year," he's saying "Let's split up for another YEAR," implying it's a greater amount of time than that which they've spent apart. Easy to see why you took it that way though, given the difficulty of showing/being able to tell inflections in comics.

MReav
2009-08-20, 09:42 AM
I assumed Belkar was breaking the fourth wall. They all do it from time to time. The Oracle is simply the most shameless about it.

Morty
2009-08-20, 10:38 AM
Belkar's Survival - the new V's four words. :smallsigh: Except worse, because people will latch onto every single "explanation" to prove that Belkar won't die.

kc0bbq
2009-08-20, 10:52 AM
Belkar's Survival - the new V's four words. :smallsigh: Except worse, because people will latch onto every single "explanation" to prove that Belkar won't die.I believe the exact phrasing was "draw his last breath", which is a euphemism for death, but I personally wouldn't be suprised by either his death or a more literal fulfillment of the prophecy.

Something big's rolling down the hill towards Belkar, but I have a hard time seeing him being completely written out of the comic all together. The Giant can be awfully devious.

Zevox
2009-08-20, 11:09 AM
I figured the year that Belkar was talking about was a real-life year, as a nod to the readers, not an in-comic year.
I'm pretty sure the group was separated for more than a year in real life. I actually thought it was more like two. (Looking back in the news archives, it was more like a year and a half. Rich's news post announcing his hiatus when the Order split at the end of War and XPs is dated August 26th, 2007. The strip we were discussing was posted April 22nd, 2009, according to the discussion thread for it.)


Perhaps we'll get lucky, and get a few strips of Quarr tearing apart his soul as he doesn't mention anyone bigger's attention.
Okay, I can't resist doing this to you, you've just made it too easy:


I am so grateful you don't write the comic, that you'd be willing to waste so much time in the story for petty vengeance.
:smalltongue:


He's evil because he is too stupid to be anything else
Kinda like Elan, who is good because he's too stupid to be anything else, amirite?

Zevox

Acero
2009-08-20, 03:29 PM
TO EVERYONE SAYING "THIS IS ANOTHER THREAD ABOUT KEEPING BELKAR ALIVE..":

i could not care less about Belkar. to me, he is the most shallow character,
and i would be fine with him being replaced (through death or otherwise)
with another character that contaains a greater potential plotline-wise.
(unless of course sansedge is a kobold town.)

Sewblon
2009-09-24, 12:02 AM
I am so grateful you don't write the comic, that you'd be willing to waste so much time in the story for petty vengeance.
Belkar is little, not just in size, but in everything. He's a little man, with little goals and little dreams. It's not that he doesn't believe in anything, but that he doesn't make anything of it. Oh, he can slaughter mooks, and think up inventive mental tortures, but at the end of the day he never achieves anything beyond a few half-hearted wisecracks and talking himself up to do something that he'll never actually do. Oh he talks about betraying the party, but he's nothing more then an inconvenience. He's evil because he is too stupid to be anything else, and the one joke he brings to this strip has really gotten old.
He doesn't have a plan, he doesn't think big, he doesn't dream, and evil as he is, he spends more time thinking about it then doing it. And anyone can do that. And that is why Xykon is the big bad, and Belkar is a mid level adventurer who will be dead in six weeks, alone and unloved, and stay that way. Perhaps we'll get lucky, and get a few strips of Quarr tearing apart his soul as he doesn't mention anyone bigger's attention.

I admit that Belkar is my favorite main character, but like Zevox said, Elan is at least as stupid as Belkar and Elan is the most altruistic member of The Order of the Stick. When he met Redcloak, Xykon wasn't accomplishing anything beyond killing random innocents; he only gained ambition because Redcloak explained the plan to him, and he only became a legitimate threat to the multiverse because Redcloak transformed him into a lich. So Xykon is the Big Bad mostly because he ran into Redcloak by dumb luck. Xykon and Belkar are not that different in temperament, disposition or personality, Xykon just happens to be evil on a larger scale. It would still be cheap to just write Belkar out of the strip after the epiphany he had when he sick from the MOJ. He could have another epiphany in the after life and return as a ghost. I don't know that this will happen, but is possible. We don't know what calendar The Oracle was referring to when he said "Belkar will draw his last breath, ever, by the end of the year." So Belkar could technically survive for the rest of the strip.

Ledeas
2009-09-24, 11:13 AM
don't know if anyone said this yet, but here goes:

Beklar as you knew him is dead. He has adapted, he has evolved, he has changed.
As far as the Oracle goes, could this not be a weasle way out?

Kish
2009-09-24, 11:32 AM
don't know if anyone said this yet,

Far too many people.


As far as the Oracle goes, could this not be a weasle way out?
The Oracle's predictions have been excessively literal ("in his throne room"). They've never been excessively metaphorical, and the Oracle, unlike a lot of people on this board, has no reason to want to see Belkar escape the prophecy and live.

DBJack
2009-09-24, 11:34 AM
don't know if anyone said this yet, but here goes:

Beklar as you knew him is dead. He has adapted, he has evolved, he has changed.
As far as the Oracle goes, could this not be a weasle way out?

Belkar should not 'fund his IRA.' Even if the Oracle was referring to Belkar losing his personality and becoming someone else, Belkar would still have the same name and therefore continue to fund his IRA. Or something like that.

Shale
2009-09-24, 12:01 PM
Also, I'm pretty sure the new Belkar still likes birthday cake and enjoys breathing.

Silverraptor
2009-09-24, 12:31 PM
don't know if anyone said this yet, but here goes:

Beklar as you knew him is dead. He has adapted, he has evolved, he has changed.
As far as the Oracle goes, could this not be a weasle way out?

"Belkar will draw his last breath, EVER, before the end of the year."

Weasle out of that.

Cleverdan22
2009-09-24, 12:47 PM
Good lord, this is giving me flashbacks to when the comic in question actually came out, and people were theorizing about Belkar drawing a picture of someone breathing.

But yeah, one thing to take into account that I think somebody has already pointed out was that the group was already separated some time before the Oracle made his prediction. Of course, the prediction isn't "He will die in one year," it is "He will die when the year ends," to paraphrase.

John Cribati
2009-09-24, 12:50 PM
I admit that Belkar is my favorite main character, but like Zevox said, Elan is at least as stupid as Belkar and Elan is the most altruistic member of The Order of the Stick.

The way I see it, Belkar has a pretty decent Intelligence stat, but a low-to-zero in Wisdom (what with his low ranks in Spot)
Elan, however, has only one (are they called ranks?) each in Int and Wisdom, which just lets him squeeze by and be brilliant every now and again.

73 Bits of Lint
2009-09-24, 03:13 PM
I figured the year that Belkar was talking about was a real-life year, as a nod to the readers, not an in-comic year.
Is this a reference to the gag where the Oracle breaks the fourth wall to say the opposite, or is it a request for a reference (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)?
I have an almost encyclopedic knowledge of things that didn't happen and don't exist.

Sewblon
2009-09-24, 03:19 PM
The way I see it, Belkar has a pretty decent Intelligence stat, but a low-to-zero in Wisdom (what with his low ranks in Spot)
Elan, however, has only one (are they called ranks?) each in Int and Wisdom, which just lets him squeeze by and be brilliant every now and again.

It is mathematically impossible to role less than 3 on any stat. I think the way it works is Belkar has a wisdom stat of 6, and Elan has an intelligence stat of 6.

Watcher
2009-09-24, 03:31 PM
I thought Elan couldn't have a INT score that low. Don't INT scores that are that low make someone not able to speak right?

Shale
2009-09-24, 03:32 PM
Yeah. An Int of 3 means he'd talk like Thog, at best. Same with a Wis of 3 for Belkar - he'd have trouble not walking off cliffs.

Manachu Boy
2009-09-24, 03:46 PM
I'd hope we get a bit of warning beforehand and ideally I'd like to have his year be up at the point the story's over (not particularly expecting it though), it'd be a shame to lose one of the best comedic characters in the strip. Yeah yeah, he's evil and nasty and I wouldn't want anything to do with him myself, but when there's a computer monitor and several degrees of reality between him and me is it so wrong to find him entertaining?

Kish
2009-09-24, 04:28 PM
I thought Elan couldn't have a INT score that low. Don't INT scores that are that low make someone not able to speak right?
Only in Neverwinter Nights.

Zevox
2009-09-24, 09:18 PM
The way I see it, Belkar has a pretty decent Intelligence stat, but a low-to-zero in Wisdom (what with his low ranks in Spot)
Elan, however, has only one (are they called ranks?) each in Int and Wisdom, which just lets him squeeze by and be brilliant every now and again.
It's impossible for either of them to have scores that low. To have a score of 0 in any mental stat renders a living being catatonic, and only happens when something reduces your score. Having an intelligence score of 1 or 2 means you have only animal-level intelligence, which means, among other things, you cannot speak or understand any language.

The way I see it, Belkar has average intelligence (10-11 ish), but low wisdom (7-9 ish), while Elan is low in both. I would highly doubt either is below 7 in either of them, though. They're just not that stupid. For reference, I would say Thog likely has 5 or 6 in both int and wisdom, Crystal has that in one or both of them (posters here never were quite able to agree which one she had so low, or if it was both), and that we've yet to see anything so dumb it would qualify for the "barely above animal level" score of 3-4.

Zevox

Sewblon
2009-09-24, 10:01 PM
Like The Giant said "The Order of The Stick travels exclusively at the speed of plot" So Belkar is going to survive until his death will have an actual impact on the story.

kusje
2009-09-24, 10:03 PM
For reference, I would say Thog likely has 5 or 6 in both int and wisdom, Crystal has that in one or both of them (posters here never were quite able to agree which one she had so low, or if it was both), and that we've yet to see anything so dumb it would qualify for the "barely above animal level" score of 3-4.

Zevox

Why wouldn't you consider Thog as having "barely above animal level" other than his ability to speak? (which might be required for story purposes)

Zevox
2009-09-24, 10:12 PM
Why wouldn't you consider Thog as having "barely above animal level" other than his ability to speak? (which might be required for story purposes)
His ability to speak is one in more than one way. He certainly isn't perfect with it, but he doesn't have as much trouble, or quite as limited a vocabulary, as I'd expect for something with only barely above animal level intelligence - his main problem is simply his lack of knowledge of pronouns. Just off the top of my head, he also has no trouble understanding Nale's instructions, or any difficulty comprehending the purpose of any artificial objects, and suggested a torture method at one point. He's definitely quite stupid, but he's just not quite what I'd consider "barely above animal level."

Zevox

Elan's Modron
2009-09-24, 10:12 PM
Good lord, this is giving me flashbacks to when the comic in question actually came out, and people were theorizing about Belkar drawing a picture of someone breathing.



Oh- I wish I had been here for that! Or not, maybe.

Sewblon
2009-09-24, 10:48 PM
It's impossible for either of them to have scores that low. To have a score of 0 in any mental stat renders a living being catatonic, and only happens when something reduces your score. Having an intelligence score of 1 or 2 means you have only animal-level intelligence, which means, among other things, you cannot speak or understand any language.

The way I see it, Belkar has average intelligence (10-11 ish), but low wisdom (7-9 ish), while Elan is low in both. I would highly doubt either is below 7 in either of them, though. They're just not that stupid. For reference, I would say Thog likely has 5 or 6 in both int and wisdom, Crystal has that in one or both of them (posters here never were quite able to agree which one she had so low, or if it was both), and that we've yet to see anything so dumb it would qualify for the "barely above animal level" score of 3-4.

Zevox

Now that you mention it, Belkar Probably has a 10-11 on intelligence and a 7-8 on Wisdom, and Elan has 10-11 for wisdom and 7-8 for intelligence. Because Belkar's senses are strong enough for him to converse with others and fight, and Elan is fluent in Common, could figure out how to escape from jail, and seems to at least have sharper senses than Belkar.

Gulaghar
2009-09-25, 01:13 PM
TO EVERYONE SAYING "THIS IS ANOTHER THREAD ABOUT KEEPING BELKAR ALIVE..":

i could not care less about Belkar. to me, he is the most shallow character,
and i would be fine with him being replaced (through death or otherwise)
with another character that contaains a greater potential plotline-wise.
(unless of course sansedge is a kobold town.)

I wouldn't want Belkar to die, he gets good laughs, but I would like to see him undergo some form of growth, and no I don't mean get taller.

Gandariel
2009-09-26, 12:21 AM
and what if...mmm... maybe for some reason Belkar gets trasformed in some kind of monster who Doesn't need to breathe?

it would be also a funny joke: the transformation spell (i don't remember exactly) lasts a certain amount of time depending on:
-if the morphed form is of the same reign (animal, vegetal, mineral)
-if the morphed form has some relation with the previous form (man => doll)
-...
-...
-..
-if the morphed form has LOWER INTELLIGENCE than the previous form ^^

theinsulabot
2009-09-26, 12:30 AM
and what if...mmm... maybe for some reason Belkar gets trasformed in some kind of monster who Doesn't need to breathe?

it would be also a funny joke: the transformation spell (i don't remember exactly) lasts a certain amount of time depending on:
-if the morphed form is of the same reign (animal, vegetal, mineral)
-if the morphed form has some relation with the previous form (man => doll)
-...
-...
-..
-if the morphed form has LOWER INTELLIGENCE than the previous form ^^

that's been suggested before, as have various undead and golems who also would not,but that doesn't cut it because he was told he would not be long for the world, and any of those things would still be here

Atronach
2009-09-26, 12:34 PM
That is interesting. Perhaps Belkar will become a zombie... Really, I honestly doubt that Belkar will become something that is does not have to respire.

Mugen Nightgale
2009-09-26, 12:38 PM
IMO Belkar will die at the end of the story and that's it. Perhaps if he gets a true change of heart in the last 2 strips we'll see him getting resurrected. BUt only at the ends end. Cuz you know a good Belkar won't be funny enough to keep around.

Kish
2009-09-26, 12:45 PM
IMO Belkar will die at the end of the story and that's it. Perhaps if he gets a true change of heart in the last 2 strips we'll see him getting resurrected.
"Last breath--ever"...

Mugen Nightgale
2009-09-26, 12:52 PM
ok, thanks Kish

IMO Belkar will die at the end of the story and that's it.

Cracklord
2009-09-26, 03:55 PM
and what if...mmm... maybe for some reason Belkar gets trasformed in some kind of monster who Doesn't need to breathe?


That doesn't live in this world? Or eat? Or live very long, since there is no point funding his IRA...
I have it!
an inanimate corpse
I wouldn't want Belkar to die, he gets good laughs, but I would like to see him undergo some form of growth, and no I don't mean get taller.

Well too bad, 'cause Belkar's past his date with the knackerman.
And there was much rejoicing.


I wouldn't want Belkar to die, he gets good laughs, but I would like to see him undergo some form of growth, and no I don't mean get taller.

Well too bad, 'cause Belkar's past his date with the knackerman.
And there was much rejoicing.


IMO Belkar will die at the end of the story and that's it. Perhaps if he gets a true change of heart in the last 2 strips we'll see him getting resurrected. BUt only at the ends end. Cuz you know a good Belkar won't be funny enough to keep around.

Why? You only like him because he is a shallow, to dimensional character. What's the point of arbitrarily keeping him alive, despite changing the only worthwhile (for an admittedly low definition of worthwhile) aspects of his character.

Personally I can't wait for him to kick the bucket.
Particularly if we later get strips of him getting flayed, burned and tortured in hell.

Sewblon
2009-09-26, 08:11 PM
That doesn't live in this world? Or eat? Or live very long, since there is no point funding his IRA...
I have it!
an inanimate corpse

Well too bad, 'cause Belkar's past his date with the knackerman.
And there was much rejoicing.



Well too bad, 'cause Belkar's past his date with the knackerman.
And there was much rejoicing.



Why? You only like him because he is a shallow, to dimensional character. What's the point of arbitrarily keeping him alive, despite changing the only worthwhile (for an admittedly low definition of worthwhile) aspects of his character.

Personally I can't wait for him to kick the bucket.
Particularly if we later get strips of him getting flayed, burned and tortured in hell.

I was under the impression that the after life for the chaotic evil people consisted of anarchy, violence and other savagery, sounds like Belkar's kind of place doesn't it? You seem to hate Belkar for being one dimensional. What about Durkon Stereotypical Dwarf Thundershield?

Nimrod's Son
2009-09-27, 01:13 AM
I wouldn't want Belkar to die, he gets good laughs, but I would like to see him undergo some form of growth, and no I don't mean get taller.
Well too bad, 'cause Belkar's past his date with the knackerman.
And there was much rejoicing.


I wouldn't want Belkar to die, he gets good laughs, but I would like to see him undergo some form of growth, and no I don't mean get taller.
Well too bad, 'cause Belkar's past his date with the knackerman.
And there was much rejoicing.
Man, I've been getting sick of all the "prog" posts in this forum. It's nice to get back to a bit of good old-fashioned verse-chorus-verse-chorus. :smallwink:

npc revolution
2009-09-27, 10:01 AM
I had an idea that when Belkar dies, he'll go to hell or someplace similar on account of being evil. That'd put him somewhere near those three fiends. That could be a cool sub-plot, right?

hamishspence
2009-09-27, 11:09 AM
CE generally means Abyss afterline destination, with rare exceptions going to Pandemonium or Carceri.

Souls destined for the Abyss end up as manes- small, fragile demons who get kicked around by the others. Exceptionally evil souls become dretches. And either way, its a long way to go before having any "fun" so to speak.

Even Orcus started out as a mane.

Blue Ghost
2009-09-27, 05:36 PM
I don't know if Belkar will die or something else, but I would like to return to the original question: When will it happen? Roy mentioned 7 weeks in strip #666, and I would wager it's been at least a week since then, based on all the preparations the Order's making. I don't think Belkar will die to a random encounter; it will be something rather climactic to result in the death of one of the Order. So that must mean that something big will happen in the very near future, eh?

Nimrod's Son
2009-09-27, 05:54 PM
Roy mentioned 7 weeks in strip #666, and I would wager it's been at least a week since then, based on all the preparations the Order's making.
According to Blackwing, the dragon fight was two days ago. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0678.html) Belkar will be around for a little while yet.

Sewblon
2009-09-27, 06:11 PM
I had an idea that when Belkar dies, he'll go to hell or someplace similar on account of being evil. That'd put him somewhere near those three fiends. That could be a cool sub-plot, right?

I hope this happens.

Cracklord
2009-09-28, 06:24 AM
I was under the impression that the after life for the chaotic evil people consisted of anarchy, violence and other savagery, sounds like Belkar's kind of place doesn't it? You seem to hate Belkar for being one dimensional. What about Durkon Stereotypical Dwarf Thundershield?

Belkar would like it, except he is not good enough at it to be one of the people doing the kicking. He's got no imagination, no style. He doesn't think beig, doesn't dream. Hell, he doesn't even do it much, he just talks about it, and makes up shallow justifications not to.

He'll be getting kicked around all right.


I had an idea that when Belkar dies, he'll go to hell or someplace similar on account of being evil. That'd put him somewhere near those three fiends. That could be a cool sub-plot, right?

What's he going to do, cry at them? They're pushing epic level powerups and on the phone to Tiamat. He's good at killing 1/3 CR mooks, and first level rogues. Who don't even have names.
Yeah, I'm sure it's all going to change.


Man, I've been getting sick of all the "prog" posts in this forum. It's nice to get back to a bit of good old-fashioned verse-chorus-verse-chorus. :smallwink:

That was intentional, believe it or not. It felt so good to say it once, I wanted to say it twice. :smallamused:

Grifthin
2009-09-28, 07:10 AM
On a related note - does it really matter ? I mean resurrection is cheap (speaking from the party's wealth perspective.)


More importantly - would belkar return if they Resurrected him ? Also, would they even bother ? In Roy's own oppinion he's just keeping belkar pointed at the bad guys instead of leaving him to wander around on his lonesome.

Tyger Vendebta
2009-09-28, 07:27 AM
You know, the fact that Belkar will draw his last breath may mean he will kill his last person, draw the last person he kills' last breath

But really, Belkar's most likely gonna die.

Herald Alberich
2009-09-28, 12:35 PM
On a related note - does it really matter ? I mean resurrection is cheap (speaking from the party's wealth perspective.)


More importantly - would belkar return if they Resurrected him ? Also, would they even bother ? In Roy's own oppinion he's just keeping belkar pointed at the bad guys instead of leaving him to wander around on his lonesome.

I don't think they would bother. Belkar is Evil, after all, and Roy knows it. As a Good person, he's not going to kill Belkar himself, and instead has decided to use him to fight other Evil and limit the amount of Evil he can do. But once Belkar is dead, he can't do any more Evil at all. Why would they raise him and risk him killing more innocents? They don't need him that much; there are other rangers in the world.

There might be a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy involved, too. The Oracle told Roy that Belkar will die and not come back, so when Belkar dies, Roy won't try to bring him back because he knows it's futile.

(credit for these ideas go to forum members in earlier threads on this topic)

Asta Kask
2009-09-29, 02:18 AM
You know, the fact that Belkar will draw his last breath may mean he will kill his last person, draw the last person he kills' last breath

Do you think Belkar would call existing without being able to kill "life"?

butterbow
2009-09-29, 12:46 PM
Well I don't know that much about D&D - but do GODS breath? Belkar mentioned being a war god a few times - why not become really one? :smallwink:

Harr
2009-09-29, 02:05 PM
Belkar would like it, except he is not good enough at it to be one of the people doing the kicking. He's got no imagination, no style. He doesn't think beig, doesn't dream. Hell, he doesn't even do it much, he just talks about it, and makes up shallow justifications not to.

LOL, what are you, Evil Tony Robbins now? Belkar has kicked ass when he's needed to kick ass. That's all we know; you can't extrapolate incompetence to stuff we haven't seen him do... even if you really really wish it was like that, we don't really know.




Yeah, I'm sure it's all going to change.


I'm sure it is. That's what stories do, they propel their characters toward change. Belkar has already acknowledged the need to "fake" growth, so it's only a matter of time before he accidentally "grows" for real in some way.

Besides, the character is way too popular and the story has invested way too much time into him to cut him out without giving him a proper send-off or a "Moment of Awesome" first.




That was intentional, believe it or not. It felt so good to say it once, I wanted to say it twice. :smallamused:

Yyyeeahhh... you should go ahead and try and detach yourself emotionally from the topic a little bit; you're starting to come across as the forum's very own "Belkar" (by your own definition of "Belkar"), if you get my meaning.

Dark Faun
2009-09-29, 02:19 PM
I really hope Belkar won't gain any kind of power over the IFCC or anything else in the lower realms. As funny as he is, I'd rather have him get what he deserves than get anything resembling a reward for being a mass murderer.

Sewblon
2009-09-29, 02:23 PM
I really hope Belkar won't gain any kind of power over the IFCC or anything else in the lower realms. As funny as he is, I'd rather have him get what he deserves than get anything resembling a reward for being a mass murderer.

I envisioned it being the other way around. The IFCC said they wanted conflict, and Belkar probably causes more conflict than any of the characters except Xykon.

Djibril
2009-09-30, 04:57 PM
Well Belkar has taken the weight of been (as he remarked) the last piece of commedy in this comic for a long time, wich to me it's totally worth the trouble of saving/raising him from death

And he's kind of smart when it comes to something he can do (yes most of the things he can do are involved in killng people but it's D&D... where would you go without it?)

But keeping to the thread what about if after his death the fiend trio would employee him as a dispenser of chaos?

You know as they stated they just want chaos and war for the material plane right?

Wouldn't be a neat move to unleash an overpowered undead Belkar free to roam and kill?

Maybe we'll finally see him sell the whole team to Xykon and switch to the Team E. (in wich he would fit perfectly, even without pretending a charater growth) onlty to betray them too and bring much more chaos.

Is it so insane?

To me him and Xy would work great, same sense of humor, same taste for inflicting bad injuries to living people, and i guess Belkar could challenge Xy in every bet the lich could put on

Plus having belkar in his team could give Xy a lot of valuable information about the Order... even Readcloack couldn't deny this, and Belkar is familiar with Tsukiko too and i guess she could use some help in taking Redcloack out of the game

I don't know, with Rich things are usually unprecdictable.

Holyhatred
2009-10-21, 01:05 AM
I hope the author doesn't pull some bs and decide to have him killed and raised in the same comic. I want to see a real death!

Holyhatred
2009-10-21, 01:17 AM
LOL, what are you, Evil Tony Robbins now? Belkar has kicked ass when he's needed to kick ass. That's all we know; you can't extrapolate incompetence to stuff we haven't seen him do... even if you really really wish it was like that, we don't really know.




I'm sure it is. That's what stories do, they propel their characters toward change. Belkar has already acknowledged the need to "fake" growth, so it's only a matter of time before he accidentally "grows" for real in some way.

Besides, the character is way too popular and the story has invested way too much time into him to cut him out without giving him a proper send-off or a "Moment of Awesome" first.




Yyyeeahhh... you should go ahead and try and detach yourself emotionally from the topic a little bit; you're starting to come across as the forum's very own "Belkar" (by your own definition of "Belkar"), if you get my meaning.

What are you even talking about yes belkar fights and can kill fast, but the guy is right most of the time its just senseless and uncreative violence although i admit that's mostly because the guy kills so much his kills can't all be winners.
Accidental growth? Word of god has stated he is beyond redemption.
Also get real he is not going to die permanently at all. They probably will conveniently have all the stuff for a resurrection on them.
And saying that a guy who dislikes a characters actions is just like a character..... wow your so original. It's not like every debate on a character doesn't have people comparing people to the characters they hate.

Kish
2009-10-21, 02:11 AM
I hope the author doesn't pull some bs and decide to have him killed and raised in the same comic.
"Last breath--ever..."

Cracklord
2009-10-21, 02:15 AM
LOL, what are you, Evil Tony Robbins now? Belkar has kicked ass when he's needed to kick ass. That's all we know; you can't extrapolate incompetence to stuff we haven't seen him do... even if you really really wish it was like that, we don't really know.




I'm sure it is. That's what stories do, they propel their characters toward change. Belkar has already acknowledged the need to "fake" growth, so it's only a matter of time before he accidentally "grows" for real in some way.

Besides, the character is way too popular and the story has invested way too much time into him to cut him out without giving him a proper send-off or a "Moment of Awesome" first.




Yyyeeahhh... you should go ahead and try and detach yourself emotionally from the topic a little bit; you're starting to come across as the forum's very own "Belkar" (by your own definition of "Belkar"), if you get my meaning.

It's like Oscar Wilde is in the forum with us.[/sarcasm]
What next, a disparaging comment about my masculinity?

I get the impression someone doesn't like me.
Was it something I said?
Is it my opinion? Perhaps he can't bear to hear a bad word about Belkar? Is he just generally a jerk?
Or is his own analysis of the comic so important to him he will actually alienate other people over it?

To be honest, I don't care.

This is a forum discussing Belkar's impending death. Take your personal attacks elsewhere.

Back on topic, yes, I dislike him for being a two bit thug. What I dislike about him is he is a follower. Rather then evil, he gives the impression of a six year old boy with ADD desperate for attention. Everything he does is a little cry of 'look at me!'
Betraying the order and joining Xykon? Right. So why would Xykon say yes? What does he contribute? Though I would like this, as Xykon is cruel to the people he needs. Belkar going through intellectual torture and being ground down into nothing would be a very nice image.


Well I don't know that much about D&D - but do GODS breath? Belkar mentioned being a war god a few times - why not become really one? :smallwink:

When has Belkar taken action for himself? As in, done something planned, not spur on the action or opportunity? Becoming a war god is a long and involved process, that takes planning. And opportunity, luck, and ambition. Belkar has luck, and is good at taking advantage of openings. But he never aims high, doesn't dream.
And the reason Belkar doesn't have any shoes is he can't remember to tie them.

So, no, not really applicable. Unless the Giant degenerates from excellent writing to just doing what his fans tell him, like Sohmer.

ZeLinator
2009-10-21, 02:29 AM
I don't really get all the Belkar hate. I wouldn't consider my tastes base, but I don't mind him being a single-faceted character. Being the only Chaotic Evil on the team, heck, possibly even the only Chaotic member on the team (with Haley acquiescing to a leadership role), he mixes things up, causes trouble, wisecracks in ways that the other good guys can't.

While my personal alignment may be true neutral, I can appreciate a good Chaotic Evil. I don't mind that he has no chance for redemption, I just want him to stay in comic. I don't mind that he's gonna die, I'd just rather not a character who has been in the comic since the first strip be basically dropped. They started together, they should end together, at least speaking to their relevance in the strip.

Besides, Belkar still has one person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) on his hitlist. The oracle said that Belkar caused the death of everyone else on that list, so it could be possible that Belkar does cause, however indirect, the death of every person on that list, so I hold out that V needs to die as well.

tl;dr I like Belkar, but he will die, he won't be raised. I'd rather it be later than sooner (say, strip #999), but there are a few more things for him to do.

Edit: After doing some more lurking, Elan is also listed as Chaotic. However, I feel that seems to be more due to his obliviousness and child-like behavior, not from actual attempt.

[Also, this is my first post.]

ThePhantasm
2009-10-21, 03:30 PM
Zevox, these people are not going to learn. The simple fact is, they do not care about logic, they just want Belkar to survive.

Cracklord, I understand you hate Belkar. Just don't hate the people who like him, and don't resport to ad hominem attacks. You don't address the arguments, you just accuse people of things, and it gets old. Thanks.:smallsmile:

We are just trying to have fun discussions about a character we like, that is all.

hamishspence
2009-10-21, 03:37 PM
what about the people who dislike Belkar, but like his presence in the strip, and his moments of coolness?

(or, if you prefer, his Crowning Moments of Awesome :smallamused:)

I can think "If Belkar doesn't die (selflessly or otherwise- probably otherwise) I will be disappointed"

and yet still cheer his best moments (Sexy Shoeless God of War, among other things) and want his death to occur very late, as dramatically as possible, and mean something.

Holyhatred
2009-10-21, 04:39 PM
I don't really get all the Belkar hate. I wouldn't consider my tastes base, but I don't mind him being a single-faceted character. Being the only Chaotic Evil on the team, heck, possibly even the only Chaotic member on the team (with Haley acquiescing to a leadership role), he mixes things up, causes trouble, wisecracks in ways that the other good guys can't.

While my personal alignment may be true neutral, I can appreciate a good Chaotic Evil. I don't mind that he has no chance for redemption, I just want him to stay in comic. I don't mind that he's gonna die, I'd just rather not a character who has been in the comic since the first strip be basically dropped. They started together, they should end together, at least speaking to their relevance in the strip.

Besides, Belkar still has one person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) on his hitlist. The oracle said that Belkar caused the death of everyone else on that list, so it could be possible that Belkar does cause, however indirect, the death of every person on that list, so I hold out that V needs to die as well.

tl;dr I like Belkar, but he will die, he won't be raised. I'd rather it be later than sooner (say, strip #999), but there are a few more things for him to do.

Edit: After doing some more lurking, Elan is also listed as Chaotic. However, I feel that seems to be more due to his obliviousness and child-like behavior, not from actual attempt.

[Also, this is my first post.]

Our problems are not with belkar being a single faceted character our problems are with belkar being a karma Houdini! The problem is we get to many of them in real life. Our bosses, celebrities, baseball players that use drugs and don't get kicked.
His comedy is just a bunch of violence that i am sure v could provide rather easily.
Why would v need to die btw? I mean the belkar already killed the person he needed too. And the oracle himself admitted the others were not really his fault.
i can understand liking him because he is the only heroic sociopath in the comic,(well maybe v could count but he changed recently) but we don't need him nearly as much as you say. Sadly i still believe he is not going to die for very long and probably all that will happen is he will die see miko say hi then get raised.

hamishspence
2009-10-21, 04:45 PM
I got the impression that, a large portion of the time, karma cracked down on Belkar hard.

From having the mark put on, to having it go off, to getting beaten up by Miko, to getting level drained, bad things happen to him. Often shortly after his acts of evil.

as he himself put it "Stupid entirely justified comuppance" and previously:

"I've never had karma work in my favour before" (on the one time it, from his perspective, has rewarded him).


Sadly i still believe he is not going to die for very long and probably all that will happen is he will die see miko say hi then get raised.

"See Miko, say hi"? I don't think anyone has suggested Miko is in the CE afterlife before.

Unless you are thinking he'll have qualified for the CN afterlie by the time he dies?

The MunchKING
2009-10-21, 05:09 PM
Oh- I wish I had been here for that! Or not, maybe.

I seem to recall that was someone deliberatly exaggerating the otherside's veiwpoint out of proportion, but I could be misremembering...

The MunchKING
2009-10-21, 05:16 PM
That doesn't live in this world? Or eat? Or live very long, since there is no point funding his IRA...
I have it!

Why would a Golem (or any undead) need an IRA? And they don't eat cake either...

Obrysii
2009-10-21, 05:41 PM
Maybe Belkar is getting an Iridescent Ioun Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#iounStones)?

multilis
2009-10-21, 05:44 PM
Someone needs to turns belkar's head into a hat. ;-)

ZeLinator
2009-10-21, 07:20 PM
Someone needs to turns belkar's head into a hat. ;-)

That would actually be quite an awesome comeuppance.

I'm cool with wanton violence. I really don't care if Belkar gets what's coming to him; I kinda like it it better when it doesn't. But I won't let how I feel about the characters change my view on how the comic will go.

I know the Oracle thing is kinda weak, and the oracle admits it as well. But still, 3 out of 4? Might as well hit for the cycle.

More tl;dr There are some Belkar fans who aren't trying to weasel him out.

Acero
2009-10-21, 08:03 PM
:belkar: will i get to cause the death of any of the following?

any of the following. that means equal or greater to 1 killing
hence why he asked which one

congrats on the 1st post

Moff Chumley
2009-10-21, 08:15 PM
Snip

Welcome to the Playground! :smallbiggrin:

Several subjects I'd like to address here.
1) Belkar may have less dimensions to him than other characters, but how does that make him a less valid character? The only other character that comes close to what he provides the strip is V, and he/she goes about it completely differently. Try to imagine an OotS without Belkar; they wouldn't be significantly different from any other group of adventurers. Awesome? Yes. But there would be something missing. Simply put, it wouldn't be OotS without Belkar.
2) He's going to die, forever. The Oracle was very clear about this; no breathing, no living. Not long for this world means gone. HE'S. DEAD. Understood? :smallsmile:
3) Oh ye of little faith, trust the Giant. He knows what he's doing.

Roland St. Jude
2009-10-21, 11:21 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: This thread is getting a bit hostile. Stop addressing each other personally and stick to discussion at hand.

otaku_lady89
2009-10-21, 11:38 PM
I think I've got a few people to back me up saying that Belkar's not just gonna roll over. Think about it!

If he goes to hell, what's he gonna do? Same thing he did in life, people. He's gonna kill. Murder and mayhem. Hell wouldn't WANT him!

And heaven... Well, they just don't have that kind of budget on angels... XD

So, The gods are probably going to send him back, via a well placed Reincarnation spell. Not the same Belkar, meaning, prophecy isn't wrong. XD

Kish
2009-10-21, 11:46 PM
I think I've got a few people to back me up saying that Belkar's not just gonna roll over. Think about it!

If he goes to hell, what's he gonna do? Same thing he did in life, people. He's gonna kill. Murder and mayhem. Hell wouldn't WANT him!

Yes, they have a reputation for avoiding crazed thugs. :smalltongue:

Zevox
2009-10-22, 12:01 AM
If he goes to hell, what's he gonna do? Same thing he did in life, people. He's gonna kill. Murder and mayhem. Hell wouldn't WANT him!
Technically, you're right on that last part. Hell wouldn't want him. Too chaotic. The Abyss will, though.

And recall for just a moment that those wizards V was soul spliced to were residents of the three evil afterlife planes. Tell me, if epic level wizards aren't too much for those planes to handle, what on earth makes you think that Belkar is?

Zevox

Holyhatred
2009-10-22, 12:17 AM
I got the impression that, a large portion of the time, karma cracked down on Belkar hard.

From having the mark put on, to having it go off, to getting beaten up by Miko, to getting level drained, bad things happen to him. Often shortly after his acts of evil.

as he himself put it "Stupid entirely justified comuppance" and previously:

"I've never had karma work in my favour before" (on the one time it, from his perspective, has rewarded him).



"See Miko, say hi"? I don't think anyone has suggested Miko is in the CE afterlife before.

Unless you are thinking he'll have qualified for the CN afterlie by the time he dies?

knight templars like miko are chaotic evil. They do what they think is right not the law. And they do anything to get there. Knight templars are just a special kind of chaotic evil.
Btw in case you didn't get it by say hi i meant get in a fight.

factotum
2009-10-22, 01:29 AM
knight templars like miko are chaotic evil. They do what they think is right not the law.

For about the forty millionth time, Lawful does NOT equal "obeys the law of the land". A Lawful character would disobey a law which conflicts with their own moral compass, and they would be no less Lawful because of it. (A Chaotic character might disobey the same law just for giggles, on the other hand...).

Ertwin
2009-10-22, 06:23 AM
Not long for this world could mean that Belkar somehow ends up on that world the raven saw through the portal

hamishspence
2009-10-22, 06:33 AM
He could still have birthdays there. "Savour his next birthday cake" is usually taken to imply "because it will be his last"

Lvl45DM!
2009-10-22, 06:49 AM
Maybe the snarl world is cakeless!!!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Ertwin
2009-10-22, 07:22 AM
there's no sun for the snarl world to revolve around, thus no years:smallsmile:

Holyhatred
2009-10-22, 09:25 AM
For about the forty millionth time, Lawful does NOT equal "obeys the law of the land". A Lawful character would disobey a law which conflicts with their own moral compass, and they would be no less Lawful because of it. (A Chaotic character might disobey the same law just for giggles, on the other hand...).

yeah your wrong. lawful characters must obey the law and chaotic characters do what they feel. she did what she felt.

hamishspence
2009-10-22, 09:34 AM
Lawful Good characters usually obey the law- unless it's an Evil Law.

(or, there is a choice between really, really bad things happening, and disobeying the law. Even then, they will usually feel guilty about it.)

Interestingly, despite not being Lawful- Elan seems to feel this when it comes to theft- because it doesn't just break the law, it tends to cause harm as well.

Harr
2009-10-22, 09:40 AM
You guys are talking as if alignment determined a character's actions. Protip: It's the other way around :smallwink:

hamishspence
2009-10-22, 10:11 AM
true- but you can predict the likely response of a person to a situation, from their alignment.

To say a person is Lawful Good, is to say that most of the time, they will respond to events, problems, etc, in a manner consistant with the PHB descriptions of LG.

Which is not to say there aren't nuances, or possibilities of change in behaviour, but, in some cases, people in D&D's behaviour, is predictable.

For an example, a Gold Dragon is born Lawful Good. Yet it hasn't had much time for its actions to dictate its alignment. So when we say the hatchling is Lawful Good, we are saying that its personality is consistant with that of a Lawful Good character.

bluewind95
2009-10-22, 10:54 AM
Besides... isn't a personal moral code a law, too? I think Miko was a very consistent follower of that law.

Moff Chumley
2009-10-22, 05:44 PM
Lawful means obeying the law whenever possible, including making minor sacrifices. If a paladin enters a country where drinking is illegal, (assuming he's okay with drinking, typically) he's not going to drink. However, if he enters a country were every citizen must get up and dance like a monkey whenever anyone tells them to, he probably won't do that. Dig?

Menas
2009-10-22, 06:02 PM
...And your way, every paladin's moral code must shift dramatically upon crossing country borders.

You have to admit, that would make for an interesting paladin.:smallwink:

waterpenguin43
2009-10-22, 10:54 PM
Zevox, these people are not going to learn. The simple fact is, they do not care about logic, they just want Belkar to survive. So they post irrelevan information and act like they've done somthing clever. Ignore them. They might even be right, who cares. It doesn't mean a thing.

I swear, it's worse then the bloody V's gender threads.

Agreed, sometimes Cracklord, your word is law.

Holyhatred
2009-11-01, 06:22 PM
No D&D book supports you. Nothing except the name "Lawful" does. And your way, every paladin's moral code must shift dramatically upon crossing country borders.

see your saying paladin's are lawful neutral. lawful neutral only supports the law however lawful good supports the law full stop unless that law is bad like having to kick a perfectly good family out of their home because they could not pay their rent. A lawful neutral character would just kick them out a lawful good will find a way to help them.

Smile_Time
2009-11-01, 10:38 PM
Zevox, these people are not going to learn. The simple fact is, they do not care about logic, they just want Belkar to survive. So they post irrelevan information and act like they've done somthing clever. Ignore them. They might even be right, who cares. It doesn't mean a thing.

I swear, it's worse then the bloody V's gender threads.

While you are certainly right, that is a very harsh assessment of the situation. You have to understand that- to put it very plainly- this comic is very, very good. So good that its fan base has developed an almost sentimental attachment to its characters (which is very impressive, given the medium and comedic nature of OOTS). Personally, I don't want Belkar to die either, and am more than happy to find some insane loophole that implies that he will survive, especially after his little 'evolve or die' episode. In his own words 'I'm comedy GOLD!'. :smallbiggrin:

And one other thing that hasn't been considered (at least from what I've seen)- death is hardly the end in OOTS. See also- ROY!

Nimrod's Son
2009-11-02, 03:11 AM
And one other thing that hasn't been considered (at least from what I've seen)- death is hardly the end in OOTS. See also- ROY!
Of course it's been considered. Repeatedly. It's just ruled out completely by the inclusion of the word "ever" in the Oracle's prophecy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html).

The "theory" that Belkar will turn into a fish has more weight behind it than Belkar dying and getting resurrected, and that's saying something.

bogsnes
2009-11-02, 10:11 AM
Actually, the prophecy said he would take his last BREATH EVER before a year has passed.

Which means that if he can find a way to not breath, that is a possibility. (though that means that he can't be raised, as then that wouldn't be his last breath)

Then there is always the possibility of Xykon raising him as an undead and creating another recurring villain :smalltongue:

Mercenary Pen
2009-11-02, 11:51 AM
I've got a couple of theories here, but not for the 'Belkar doesn't die' or 'Belkar gets rezzed' camps.

Theory 1, Xykon (or another powerful caster of your choice) uses a powerful spell such as Trap the Soul or Mindrape on Belkar, forcing the rest of the order to kill him.

Theory 2, Belkar dies in a more normal fashion, but is then suddenly taken out by an adventuring party from Celestia trying to clear up whichever afterlife he goes to, before he can be rezzed.

fangthane
2009-11-02, 01:25 PM
First, I'll just say that people who believe Belkar will die - and in honesty, I'm one of them despite the fact I'm pointing this out - have an unhealthy tendency to associate literalism where they want to see it and not elsewhere.

When the Oracle talks about the last breath - ever - we can be pretty sure that he's straight up, as there's pretty much no other way to read that. Belkar will not breathe thereafter. What it doesn't specify are the terms of that cessation; and while (as I acknowledge) the likelihood is that he dies permanently, there are other possibilities. (spoilers out of habit)

- he may be reincarnated and satisfy the terms of this one, marginally. I'd consider this the least satisfying solution.
- he may be retained as undead, animating spirit for some kind of construct, brought back as an Outsider of some description.
- something else which technically fulfils the prophecy may occur.

Of course I don't strictly believe this will happen; I believe Belkar will be killed by the party (and not raised) after sticking his sharps into a ventrally-controlled V.


When the Oracle says Belkar is not long for this world, it needn't be literal; the gift horse was not a literal free equine, so we've a precedent that the Oracle is capable of dealing - and issuing prophecy - in figures of speech as well as the purely literal. In one case it appears definitely against any form of return, however in a figurative sense it's not so clear. When dealing with elimination of possibilities, any possibility - however remote - must remain in consideration until and unless it's definitively eliminated. This leaves enough doubt that it's effectively meaningless.

What I'd love is if there's some way Rich could work things so as to tweak the noses of all the folks who are currently standing so firm on their "it must be thus" platforms (because while I believe he'll die, it's a long way from anything like proof) while retaining the story's - and the Oracle's - integrity.

Oh, and since I haven't seen this mentioned I'll just point it out - it's not at the end of the in-comic year, it's by the end. As in "at some time later than now but before then." :smallbiggrin:

Holyhatred
2009-11-04, 10:20 PM
For about the forty millionth time, Lawful does NOT equal "obeys the law of the land". A Lawful character would disobey a law which conflicts with their own moral compass, and they would be no less Lawful because of it. (A Chaotic character might disobey the same law just for giggles, on the other hand...).

See the alignment your talking about is chaotic stupid not chaotic in general, but i must thank you you have made me remember the stupid version of every alignment.

Holyhatred
2009-11-04, 10:24 PM
Good thing you told me, or I would have thought that what I said, was that if you claim being Lawful means being required to obey the law (which, again, no D&D book supports), then any Lawful character's entire moral code would shift dramatically upon crossing country borders. Good, Neutral, Evil--you just claimed they all have the same restriction.

{Scrubbed}

Kish
2009-11-04, 11:16 PM
I claimed lawful neutral has that restriction. Get you facts straight woman!


lawful characters must obey the law

Also i don't go by D&D books i go by the tvtropes wiki and what it says lawful means.

Uh...huh.

By the actual D&D alignments, Miko was Lawful Good at least until she fell, and what she was when she died is debatable. The chances of her being in the same afterlife Belkar will go to are negligible to nonexistent. (Same one of nine, not counting the chance of Belkar being eaten by the Snarl, lest this be less than clear.)

Holyhatred
2009-11-04, 11:51 PM
{Scrubbed}

Nimrod's Son
2009-11-05, 01:14 AM
{Scrubbed}
Dude. I don't play D&D either, which is why I don't get into alignment arguments on this forum. OotS is a story based on D&D. When you're arguing alignments, you HAVE to use the D&D definition or it becomes meaningless. So if you don't play D&D, you'll just have to live with the fact those that do are almost certainly better informed than you are on the subject.

Kish never implied she was better than you because she plays D&D. But darn straight she's more qualified to talk about the alignment system than you. If you're just going by TVTropes (which is a botched mess of a website at the best of times) against the ACTUAL D&D definitions... well, that's along the same lines as visiting a techy computer forum and insisting that "cookies" are really just a type of biscuit.

And leave out the namecalling, yeah? She's been perfectly civil to you. Your new signature is totally out of order.

Holyhatred
2009-11-05, 01:26 AM
Dude. I don't play D&D either, which is why I don't get into alignment arguments on this forum. OotS is a story based on D&D. When you're arguing alignments, you HAVE to use the D&D definition or it becomes meaningless. So if you don't play D&D, you'll just have to live with the fact those that do are almost certainly better informed than you are on the subject.

Kish never implied she was better than you because she plays D&D. But darn straight she's more qualified to talk about the alignment system than you. If you're just going by TVTropes (which is a botched mess of a website at the best of times) against the ACTUAL D&D definitions... well, that's along the same lines as visiting a techy computer forum and insisting that "cookies" are really just a type of biscuit.

And leave out the namecalling, yeah? She's been perfectly civil to you. Your new signature is totally out of order.

I know giant visits tvtropes so i believe he gets his definitions from them. She(maybe he) is not more qualified because she only cares about a definition from one source while i use the entire internet. Name calling? I was purposely being immature alright? And i'll change my signature when i feel like it. Also your cookies comparison leaves much do be desired, mainly relevance.

Nimrod's Son
2009-11-05, 02:03 AM
I know giant visits tvtropes so i believe he gets his definitions from them.
Right. As opposed to using the actual definitions from D&D, which is Rich's main passion in life and hence why he writes professionally for Wizards of the Coast, and why he has an entire website dedicated to it.

Sure, he puts his own spin on things and subverts expectations, but when he's working from source then it's from D&D itself, not TVTropes' fanwankery take on it.


She(maybe he) is not more qualified because she only cares about a definition from one source while i use the entire internet.
Ooh, sorry. I didn't realise you were using all the internet. :smalltongue:

Raging Gene Ray
2009-11-05, 03:05 AM
Thank you for putting the quotes out of order! The second quote is the first quote in chronological order. I changed it because i felt you needed me to specify that the neutral version of something was the pure version of it not restricted by good or evil.

I don't think Kish was trying to twist your words around. What you said at first was "Lawful people ALWAYS follow the law," and she disagreed with it. Later, you clarified that you meant "Lawful NEUTRAL people always follow the law," but acted as if that was what you said in the first place and she was deliberately ignoring it.

And Lawful Neutral could refer to a PERSONAL code or set of rituals that someone follows out of habit without a care about what the local laws say. Unless this person IS the local government.


Name calling? I was purposely being immature alright?

You sure were!


And i'll change my signature when i feel like it.

It's your sig, but it is disrespectful to lie about another poster. Kish hasn't been bullying you at all. If anything, your namecalling, whether it's an imitation of immaturity or genuine immaturity is still much worse.

Oh, and my answer to the original post: ANOTHER year doesn't have to mean they were already separated for a year, and the Oracle could have been just using a figure of speech when he said Belkar should enjoy his next Birthday cake. He doesn't literally need to have a birthday complete with cake slathered in melting candles and butter cream frosting.

Holyhatred
2009-11-05, 10:15 AM
Right. As opposed to using the actual definitions from D&D, which is Rich's main passion in life and hence why he writes professionally for Wizards of the Coast, and why he has an entire website dedicated to it.

Sure, he puts his own spin on things and subverts expectations, but when he's working from source then it's from D&D itself, not TVTropes' fanwankery take on it.


Ooh, sorry. I didn't realise you were using all the internet. :smalltongue:

Literally rolling on the floor laughing my ******* *** off! You reply to one girl and all these white knight wannabes come in trying to act smart. Hahaha please man the main goal of rich with this webcomic seems to be using every trope on that site. And you got a problem with getting better information than just one D&D book?

Nimrod's Son
2009-11-05, 10:21 AM
You reply to one girl and all these white knight wannabes come in trying to act smart.
Please. Kish is more than capable of standing up for herself. I'd have made the same reply regardless of who you were arguing with, because I thought you were being ridiculous. You've done nothing to change my mind since then. Quite the opposite; you've now wandered into "lost cause" territory.


Hahaha please man the main goal of rich with this webcomic seems to be using every trope on that site.
Yeah, I think we're done here. :smallsigh:

Holyhatred
2009-11-05, 10:28 AM
I don't think Kish was trying to twist your words around. What you said at first was "Lawful people ALWAYS follow the law," and she disagreed with it. Later, you clarified that you meant "Lawful NEUTRAL people always follow the law," but acted as if that was what you said in the first place and she was deliberately ignoring it.

And Lawful Neutral could refer to a PERSONAL code or set of rituals that someone follows out of habit without a care about what the local laws say. Unless this person IS the local government.



You sure were!



It's your sig, but it is disrespectful to lie about another poster. Kish hasn't been bullying you at all. If anything, your namecalling, whether it's an imitation of immaturity or genuine immaturity is still much worse.

Oh, and my answer to the original post: ANOTHER year doesn't have to mean they were already separated for a year, and the Oracle could have been just using a figure of speech when he said Belkar should enjoy his next Birthday cake. He doesn't literally need to have a birthday complete with cake slathered in melting candles and butter cream frosting.

That's all fine and dandy but kish never bothered to try for an actual definition so i decided to press on. And yeah i was being immature on purpose so why couldn't ya tell my signature was meant to be immature as well genius? For the love of god none of you is even close to figuring anything out yet you continue to pretend your knowledge is absolute. And you all seem to love to slip your own insults into the conversation's like telling yourself i wasn't obfuscating stupidity but yet you can still criticize me for saying a childish remark?

Kish
2009-11-05, 03:54 PM
I confess, it never occurred to me that you were basing your assertions on a belief that OotS is actually a TVTropes-based comic rather than a D&D-based one. Probably because you neglected to mention it with your original "your wrong" assertion to factotum...

The definitions of each of the alignments in D&D 3.5ed are, I believe, in the SRD. There is no indication that Rich has ever been to the TVTropes website in his life. I don't know how old the TVTropes website is, but the Order of the Stick had been running for years before anyone referenced TVTropes here.

...What is this even about now, anyway? Belkar's death (which will be within seven weeks, and then he'll never breathe or be in the world again)? TVTropes? Miko's afterlife destination (unknowable)?

Doug Lampert
2009-11-05, 06:19 PM
I confess, it never occurred to me that you were basing your assertions on a belief that OotS is actually a TVTropes-based comic rather than a D&D-based one. Probably because you neglected to mention it with your original "your wrong" assertion to factotum...

I can't imagine why he'd think Rich was basing this on TVTropes and am boggled by the concept. There is no evidence whatsoever that Rich uses TVTropes for ANYTHING. Almost everything on TVTropes is a known and named cliche, that's WHY IT IS THERE!

Fourth Wall, Checkov's Gun, Lampshade Hanging, whatever, if Rich uses it and anyone wants to claim it "has to be" from TVTropes I'll laugh at them. Those names ALL predate the internet by quite a bit and would be known by almost anyone who'd ever been involved in live theater to any significant extent.

In most cases the trope is far older than he thinks (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OlderThanTheyThink).

There is also plenty of evidence that he uses D&D and specifically the SRD. Is there any real point in arguing with someone insulting who has somehow missed that this is a D&D based comic? It means he's never even opened the FAQ (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html).

Trollsneeddeath
2009-11-05, 08:23 PM
{Scrubbed}

Nimrod's Son
2009-11-05, 09:00 PM
[-snip-]
Thank you for your contribution. Glad you could get that off your chest.

Yeah, apparently Belkar's year is up?

Cleverdan22
2009-11-05, 09:06 PM
{Scrubbed}

Dienekes
2009-11-05, 09:13 PM
{Scrubbed}

Thank you for the best laugh of the day.

I suppose I could go in a rant calling you stupid for taking this all so seriously and through this very post feeding the troll you were howling about. But it's so much easier to just laugh, I find.

Though good insulting a good half a dozen people and then telling one of them to get out of the forum.

Nimrod's Son
2009-11-05, 09:18 PM
...'Cause I swear I heard his year was up.

Roland St. Jude
2009-11-05, 09:24 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please don't call other posters trolls. Please report posts you think are trolling, flaming, or otherwise violating the Forum Rules.

Thread locked for good.