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Umael
2009-08-19, 04:11 PM
Thinking about blood magic a little, wanted to get people's idea of balance.

Basically, if a mage has a feat (not a spell, feat) that does X amount of damage to him/herself to do a ranged touch attack, how much damage should Y be?

For example, if the mage does 1 point of damage for a ranged touch attack that does 1d4 points of damage, is that fair? Should it be more? Less? Something other than a ranged touch attack? How far should the multiples go?

(In comparison, the warlock's eldritch blast does 1d6 at 1st level, indefinitely, while the wizard's magic missile, a spell, does up to 5d4, uses up a 1st-level spell, and never misses.)

Strawman
2009-08-19, 04:25 PM
The damage to self/damage to target ratio should definitly not be higher than the average hp of spellcaster/hp of meatshield ratio. Otherwise it gets way too powerful.

But the reason why the damage can't get too high is because you haven't proposed a limit to the damage. A wizard could use all but one hit point to deal the proportional amount of damage to someone, killing them in one hit.

So I would either have a low ratio, or include a limit of some kind.

Xefas
2009-08-19, 04:28 PM
Well, damaging yourself for greater benefit is tricky. At lower levels, its a big deal. You have very few hit points to work with, so every point of preemptive damage is that closer you are to being killed by a lucky crossbow bolt from the level 1 Kobold Warrior in the back. Not to mention its another of the spellcasters' spell slots to heal you, and spellcasters are actually limited at low levels with their spell slots.

At mid to high levels, though, small amounts of damage are trivial. Fast Healing can be achieved. Healing casters can heal all day. Hell, a bunch of classes UMDing a Wand can heal you right up, no big deal. Not to mention there are other forms of offense and defense becoming available that make hit points just plain less useful. I mean, does it matter if you have 70 hit points left, or 20 when you're one saving throw away from death or being disabled completely anyway?

So, starting with say, 1 damage to yourself to deal 1d6 + stat mod damage might be fine with an at-will ranged touch attack. At level 1, depending on your hit die size, 1 hit point is actually a tangible loss.

Godskook
2009-08-19, 04:37 PM
1d6/2 levels as a feat is already been done, without any true 'cost'. They're called reserve feats(complete mage), so that's a good starting point for balance.

Hyooz
2009-08-20, 04:32 PM
Building off of what Xephas says, perhaps the damage you do to yourself should increase with level? Or spell level? Keep the amount of damage you have to do to yourself significant, or else you get Final Fantasy Tactics Blood Price cheese and throw out one huge blast right away and it doesn't matter because you have healers.

Dragon Elite
2009-08-20, 04:32 PM
1d6/2 levels as a feat is already been done, without any true 'cost'. They're called reserve feats(complete mage), so that's a good starting point for balance.

So 1/2 levels point of damage for 1d10/2 levels or 1d8/2 levels, maybe?

EDIT: Ninja'd

Xefas
2009-08-20, 06:03 PM
So 1/2 levels point of damage for 1d10/2 levels or 1d8/2 levels, maybe?

EDIT: Ninja'd

This is exactly my point. Scaling the sacrificed health linearly, I think, is the wrong way to go about it.

At level 1, a Wizard probably has around about 5 hit points. Although, if they were planning on using some kind of self damaging stuff at low levels, it's likely they might go for 14 Con and a Toad familiar (though they're probably better off trading in their familiar for a better ACF, but I digress), giving them 9 hit points.

Going by your scheme, at level 1, dealing 1d10 damage would cost them 1 hit point. That means if they use this one time, it'd drop them to 8 points, and make them susceptible to any random CR 1/2 mook with a Light Crossbow dropping them in 1 hit.

And that's once. Sure, you can get the party healer to heal you (assuming someone bit the bullet and decided to be a healbot, this doesn't always happen. Sometimes you get players playing divine casters who want to do something besides be your personal bandaid box for the day), but that's one heal that the party fighter keeping you from getting mauled by the Orc (his 2d4+4 damage would rend you to bits if the fighter wasn't keeping him off you, and the Orc is just CR 1/2) doesn't get, whereas if you weren't trying to be a Blood Mage, he would.

Now, compare that to level 20. The wizard is probably permanently polymorphed into a Young Adult Gold Dragon or something, has 150+ hit points, a permanent 50% miss chance on himself, is invisible and flying out of sight and reach, astrally projected from his private demiplane, with a squad of Dominated clerics serving as his on demand buff/heal bots.

Does 10 damage seem like a big deal to him?

Dragon Elite
2009-08-20, 06:19 PM
1d8 per level for Level Squared Damage?