PDA

View Full Version : [3.5 Gestalt] Psion // Warblade is a pretty great idea



Bulwer
2009-08-19, 07:40 PM
We're starting at level 16, with a (wait for it) forty-five point buy. Tendency likely to be evil, more than likely to be at least slightly backstabby. High CRs pretty probable too.

So I wanna be a psionic murder machine.

With 45pb and 4 level increases and the free +2 LA that the DM has given us, the ability scores are going to be somewhere between abnormally high and stratospheric. Got any race advice?

Should the psionics side focus on self-buffs or improving the action economy? Are there any real great powers that would help here?

As for the martial side, I'm honestly not very familiar with the library of maneuvers. Which of the schools might synergize well with a high-int high-str type like m'self?

EDIT: Items are where I might feel a bit of a squeeze. Could psionics replace armor effectively?

Feats, too: Power Attack is likely worth it. There aren't too many must-haves. Maybe do some psionic focus improvements with a psicrystal?

I'm thinking the theme here might be 'unity of body and mind'.

Keld Denar
2009-08-19, 07:51 PM
There are a number of things you can do. I'd say Shaper would probably be your best choice for a specialty.

As far as maneuvers, Diamond Mind synergizes amazingly with psionics. Especially since you can expend your psionic focus to "take 15" on concentration checks and then use those concentration checks to do massive damage with Ruby/Diamond Nightmare Blade.

Other than that, it depends on what weapon style you go with. Tiger Claw is most notable for being the TWF discipline, although it works ok with a 2hander. If you are going with a 2hander, just about any school will give you good results. Stone Dragon is passing fair as long as you aren't gonna be flying too much, otherwise Iron Heart is very good as well. Going with mostly Diamond Mind and Iron Heart would proably be very wise, maybe splashing a little White Raven to get WRT and WR Hammer. WR Hammer is AMAZING!!!

Milskidasith
2009-08-19, 07:54 PM
If you want the best LA+2 possible, take the saint template. (Probably not the best for a Psion/Warblade, but still pretty nice.)

Granted, if it's an evil game, that won't work, but your DM obviously wants you to be extremely powerful; ask him to refluff it as an evil template.

Gnorman
2009-08-19, 07:56 PM
Phrenic, perhaps? Only template I really know of that gives you a bonus to INT. Others may exist, but Phrenic also gives you other mental stat boosts and some Psi-Like Abilities (though you may not need them).

As for race... hmmm... Lesser Tiefling...? Charisma is likely to be your dump stat, right?

Eldariel
2009-08-19, 07:56 PM
It's also worth noting that Diamond Mind is an excellent sword&board school thanks to Insightful Strike-line completely ignoring all your base damage and instead dealing damage on a completely different metric. Of course, any maneuvers with fixed taped-on damage additions really work fine for S&B so you can find some in all the other schools too.

But yeah, it's hard to go wrong with ToB. Whatever you do, you'll be pretty good. White Raven Tactics is swell, though White Raven in general loses a bit of value if you aren't going to be into team playing that much (as evil parties are wont to).


Pick some high Int-race with some Int-buffing Templates (Phrenic works, I think) and go to town. Preferably high Int/high Str, and making as much out of your Int-based Warblade buffs as possible (in particular, picking up some AoO stuff; the Int-buff there are just delicious).

Milskidasith
2009-08-19, 08:00 PM
Yeah, Phrenic looks a lot better than Saint, especially considering the saint's ability score increases aren't particularly amazing for a psion/Warblade (while the fast healing, immunities, and basically everything else are.) Saint also improves if you add the +2 DC ability to Psionics, though that's a minor addition.

ex cathedra
2009-08-19, 08:01 PM
Hm... races. I'd be a human, honestly. I'm not sure what templates to recommend, though. A lot of good ones aren't very nice to int.

Schools? Diamond Mind is good, as are Iron Heart and Tiger Claw for general stuff. A handful of White Raven maneuvers (read: White Raven Tactics) are very nice, as well. I'm not a very big fan of Stone Dragon, but the rest are all quite good.

Be a telepath or spend a feat on Schism, of course.

Milskidasith
2009-08-19, 08:07 PM
Actually, reconsidering it, Saint looks better than Phrenic; while the PLAs are useful for a Phrenic creature, the Saints abilities are... absurd. Of course, the requirements are pretty tough, and if you are evil, then it obviously won't work.

Gnorman
2009-08-19, 08:11 PM
Actually, reconsidering it, Saint looks better than Phrenic; while the PLAs are useful for a Phrenic creature, the Saints abilities are... absurd. Of course, the requirements are pretty tough, and if you are evil, then it obviously won't work.

I'm of the mind that anything that forces you to behave a certain way in the game is straight-up worse.

I like to maintain a certain... moral flexibility.

Keld Denar
2009-08-19, 08:16 PM
Thusly my dislike of the Words of Creation feat. Sure, it turbo charges your bard like none other, but who wants to play an EXALTED BARD!!!!

BLECH!!!!

Milskidasith
2009-08-19, 08:20 PM
As I said, the Saint template would only be useful if his DM let him be flexible with the moral requirements... and by that, be tolerant of an evil saint. >_<

Also, the Saint template is perfectly servicable if you really do intend to play that way. It's just that very few people want to play that absurdly (and badly defined, due to the BoED) good.

woodenbandman
2009-08-19, 08:23 PM
I'd say that you should go Egoist as your specialty. Greater Metamorphosis and you don't even have to do anything else.

As for your free LA +2, I'd go with Venerable White Dragonspawn Kobold. You have metamorphosis, what do you care about your ability scores?

Bulwer
2009-08-19, 08:23 PM
I'm asking him about Saint, but failing that, I think I'll go race-shopping. Phrenic seems like a waste of +2 LA for just an int buff and redundant abilities.

AstralFire
2009-08-19, 08:26 PM
Thusly my dislike of the Words of Creation feat. Sure, it turbo charges your bard like none other, but who wants to play an EXALTED BARD!!!!

BLECH!!!!

I did.

She was AWESOME.

Doc Roc
2009-08-19, 08:39 PM
Despite my reputation for constructing vile-aligned characters, I actually adore exalted, and play it when I (very rarely) get the chance.

imperialspectre
2009-08-19, 08:40 PM
Full stop. Play a Karsite, from Tome of Magic. None of your tricks require actual magic, which means karsite is lots of fun for you. Optimize SR and get free healing every time the SR stops a spell, and go into melee as a debuffing machine.

Gnorman
2009-08-19, 08:46 PM
Full stop. Play a Karsite, from Tome of Magic. None of your tricks require actual magic, which means karsite is lots of fun for you. Optimize SR and get free healing every time the SR stops a spell, and go into melee as a debuffing machine.

Okay, this. Just this. Plus, wicked mageslayer fluff!

Bulwer
2009-08-19, 08:47 PM
Crucian might be pretty fun. Turtle-people. +4 STR +6 CON -2 DEX and CHA. +8 natural armor. Awesome shell.

raitalin
2009-08-19, 08:50 PM
Thusly my dislike of the Words of Creation feat. Sure, it turbo charges your bard like none other, but who wants to play an EXALTED BARD!!!!

BLECH!!!!

As did I, and again, awesome. I could make 1st level warriors match up to 4th level fighters.

Emy
2009-08-19, 08:52 PM
Telthor Human Psion 20//Factotum 11/Warblade 9

Assuming Factotum's level 11 ability to ignore SR and DR also applies to Power Resistance through Transparency.

:D

Bulwer
2009-08-19, 09:13 PM
Karsite, Crucian, or Saint. The first and last are the mechanically great ones, and the one in the middle is the self-contained insanely deadly tortoise-man.

Gnorman
2009-08-19, 09:25 PM
self-contained insanely deadly tortoise-man.

I do believe you just answered your own question here.

While the others seem better from a mechanical point of view, you do seem to have a deep-seated desire to play a crazy deadly turtle man.

Call him Raphael.

Bulwer
2009-08-19, 09:29 PM
I do believe you just answered your own question here.

While the others seem better from a mechanical point of view, you do seem to have a deep-seated desire to play a crazy deadly turtle man.

Call him Raphael.

I must say, this is certainly what I'm leaning toward. Plus, it's not as though I'm tossing optimization to the winds. 22 14 14 22 8 8 (with one left over) if I put everything into INT. And that natural armor stacks with everything.

Gnorman
2009-08-19, 09:31 PM
I must say, this is certainly what I'm leaning toward. Plus, it's not as though I'm tossing optimization to the winds. 22 14 14 22 8 8 (with one left over) if I put everything into INT. And that natural armor stacks with everything.

This character really should be from Athas. It just makes so much sense.

RTGoodman
2009-08-19, 09:53 PM
One thing to beware of is that there's one minor problem with the build - action economy. Yeah, the stats work, and they make up for each others' weak spots, but they're both "active" classes that require standard actions for a lot of things.

Now, at level 16, at least, you can solve that partly by (1) picking powers that are only a swift (or move?) action to manifest, or (2) making sure to either quicken or augment powers to make them into free/swift actions.

Personally, I'd go for a primarily Warblade-focused build, but with a bunch of passive long-lasting buffs from your Psion side. So skip out on Telepath, but go with probably Egoist, which gets you nifty things like hustle, metamorphosis, and so on.

Eldariel
2009-08-19, 09:56 PM
One thing to beware of is that there's one minor problem with the build - action economy. Yeah, the stats work, and they make up for each others' weak spots, but they're both "active" classes that require standard actions for a lot of things.

Now, at level 16, at least, you can solve that partly by (1) picking powers that are only a swift (or move?) action to manifest, or (2) making sure to either quicken or augment powers to make them into free/swift actions.

Personally, I'd go for a primarily Warblade-focused build, but with a bunch of passive long-lasting buffs from your Psion side. So skip out on Telepath, but go with probably Egoist, which gets you nifty things like hustle, metamorphosis, and so on.

This is somewhat alleviate by Psionics being...well, Psionics. Schism, Linked Power, Synchronity (though it can be dumb good), Temporal Acceleration, etc. make using psionics while using your standard and swift actions for maneuvers pretty doable. Of course, an action-granting class like Factotum would probably be solid, but eh.

Bulwer
2009-08-19, 09:59 PM
Are there any obvious PrCs I'm missing? Warblade and Psion are both good classes; is there anything better than taking them to 20?

Eldariel
2009-08-19, 10:01 PM
Are there any obvious PrCs I'm missing? Warblade and Psion are both good classes; is there anything better than taking them to 20?

Warblade should probably go straight to 20 for this build simply because Warblade gets many of its better Int-derived abilities later in the progression, but you could do things with Psion.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-19, 10:03 PM
Spell to Power Erudite. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5117.msg173271#msg173271)

Bulwer
2009-08-19, 10:36 PM
This guy has 16 feats by level 20, and I've got to pick 13 of those now. This may take a bit.

Dacia Brabant
2009-08-19, 11:05 PM
Yeah Psion//Warblade is a build I've been tinkering with for a while because it really is a great combination in Gestalt. Going 20//20 is a very safe bet since the classes are powerful enough on their own from 1 to 20, but there are a couple of options to consider:

If you go with an elven race (presumably if you're adding one of those templates) you'd easily qualify for the awesome Eternal Blade PrC, which aside from its amazing class features you also gain access to the powerful Devoted Spirit discipline, which you wouldn't be able to do without a Crusader dip. Unfortunately you do have to be an elf, but you could qualify as a drow and take the powerful Lolth-touched template, if your DM allows it that is. You're gonna be evil anyway, right? If that doesn't appeal to you, then yeah I'd say straight Warblade.

On the Psion side, one possibility is 9 levels in the Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) PrC, which at the cost of one ML, a couple of bonus psionic feats and having to take Track, you get total mind-affecting immunity as long as you maintain psionic focus, and a few other things. Yeah you have good Will saves anyway and Moment of Perfect mind is available too, but total immunity to a huge line of affects is handy to say the least.

Draz74
2009-08-20, 02:11 AM
On the Psion side, one possibility is 9 levels in the Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) PrC, which at the cost of one ML, a couple of bonus psionic feats and having to take Track, you get total mind-affecting immunity as long as you maintain psionic focus, and a few other things. Yeah you have good Will saves anyway and Moment of Perfect mind is available too, but total immunity to a huge line of affects is handy to say the least.

Meh, I love Slayer, but it doesn't seem worth it in this case. It's not that hard to just pick Psionic Mind Blank as a known power.

Bulwer
2009-08-20, 08:38 AM
Feats:

Psion
1: Psicrystal Affinity
5: Psicrystal Containment
10: Quicken Power
15: Extend Power

Warblade
5: Improved Initiative
9: Combat Reflexes
13: Blade Meditation (something)

General
1: Power Attack
3:
6:
9:
12:
15:

I'm not sure if I can afford the (otherwise useless) Wisdom for Psionic Meditation, which would be handy. I could afford to shop around for powers and maneuvers, or take a long feat chain. Any Heritage lines that would fit it? Any must-haves I'm missing?

EDIT: regarding powers, is Inertial Armor worth it at high levels? 11 points of AC for free is tempting. Another +7 for Force Screen, and I've got 38 AC.

Bulwer
2009-08-20, 11:06 AM
Okay, I've got a power list. It's drawn only from SRD and CPsi, so it might be missing some obvious ones. Feedback is appreciated.

1: Offensive Precognition, Vigor, Catfall, Far Hand, Inertial Armor
2: Brain Lock, Crystalstorm, Energy Push, Ego Whip
3: Hostile Empathic Transfer, Dispel Psionics, Body Purification, Touchsight
4: Schism, Psionic Dominate, Psionic Dimension Door, Psionic Freedom of Movement
5: Mind Probe, Psionic Plane Shift, Cranial Deluge, Adapt Body
6: Psionic Disintegrate, Temporal Acceleration, Psionic Contingency
7: Decerebrate, Evade Burst, Personal Mind Blank
8: Psionic Greater Teleport, True Metabolism, Shadow Body

Lycanthromancer
2009-08-20, 11:12 AM
Leather armor for non-numerical armor enhancements, darkwood buckler for non-numerical shield enhancements, inertial armor for armor to AC, and a monk's belt/high Wis.

And don't forget a psychoactive skin of proteus for a high natural armor/Dexterity score and greater concealing amorpha for a good miss chance.

(Also check out my psionic powers revision (http://www.sendspace.com/file/sl07ya). Everyone seems to like it a lot. :smallwink:)

Bulwer
2009-08-20, 11:35 AM
Leather armor for non-numerical armor enhancements, darkwood buckler for non-numerical shield enhancements, inertial armor for armor to AC, and a monk's belt/high Wis.

And don't forget a psychoactive skin of proteus for a high natural armor/Dexterity score and greater concealing amorpha for a good miss chance.

(Also check out my psionic powers revision (http://www.sendspace.com/file/sl07ya). Everyone seems to like it a lot. :smallwink:)

Leather armor makes good sense, but is the buckler worth the -1 to attack rolls (I'm fighting two-handed)?

I'm dumping Wis in favor of Str and Int, so no go on the Belt. Besides, I've got my +8 natural armor bonus for being an awesome turtle-dude.

Lycanthromancer
2009-08-20, 11:46 AM
Who needs Strength when you can metamorphosis at will?

Bulwer
2009-08-20, 11:50 AM
Who needs Strength when you can metamorphosis at will?

I know that turning into other things is pretty much always the mechanically best choice when it's available in 3.5, but it doesn't really appeal to me.

Lycanthromancer
2009-08-20, 11:51 AM
Take a few levels in factotum (instead of crusader) to get Int to Str and Dex checks?

Prime32
2009-08-20, 12:00 PM
Take the Psicrystal Containment feat, then have your psicrystal take the Hidden Talent (or Wild Talent) and Psionic Meditation feats.

Now you can expend your psicrystal's psionic focus in place of your own, and your psicrystal can focus itself.

Bulwer
2009-08-20, 12:00 PM
Take a few levels in factotum (instead of crusader) to get Int to Str and Dex checks?

Where's that thread that lists all the ways to get one stat to something else? I bet I could shuffle things around enough to get decent Wis (Meditation yay) without losing anything.

Prime32
2009-08-20, 12:02 PM
Where's that thread that lists all the ways to get one stat to something else? I bet I could shuffle things around enough to get decent Wis (Meditation yay) without losing anything.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=215.0

You might also want to consider a two-level monk dip with Carmendine Monk (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Carmendine_Monk,all) or Kung-fu Genius (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Kung_Fu_Genius,all).

Bulwer
2009-08-20, 12:02 PM
Take the Psicrystal Containment feat, then have your psicrystal take the Hidden Talent (or Wild Talent) and Psionic Meditation feats.

Now you can expend your psicrystal's psionic focus in place of your own, and your psicrystal can focus itself.

Wait, I can do that? Damn, that thing could be focusing twice a turn!

Prime32
2009-08-20, 12:07 PM
Wait, I can do that? Damn, that thing could be focusing twice a turn!Plus you still have your own focus. I like using it to apply two metapsionic feats to a blasty power at once. :smallbiggrin:

Bulwer
2009-08-20, 12:10 PM
Plus you still have your own focus. I like using it to apply two metapsionic feats to a power at once, then following up with a quickened power. :smallbiggrin:

Wait a sec, wouldn't it act on a separate turn from me, though? So when I act, I can expend my focus and its focus, and then on its turn it can refocus and take another standard or move action.

Is that right?

EDIT: If I had Meditation, too, me and the crystal could start my turn focused. I could fire a Quickened power with its focus, another metapsioniced power with my focus, and then I could use my move action to refocus.

Or, a Quickened + something else power with both focuses, then an attack, then a refocus.

Prime32
2009-08-20, 12:15 PM
Wait a sec, wouldn't it act on a separate turn from me, though? So when I act, I can expend my focus and its focus, and then on its turn it can refocus and take another standard or move action.

Is that right?If one of you delays so that your initiatives match, you might be able to interweave their actions.

Of course, if your psicrystal still has actions left you have it take Shape Soulmeld (dissolving spittle) and Bonus Essentia for a ranged touch attack which deals up to 3d6 acid damage (more with Psionic Shot). If you can get a psionic adaptation of the Extra Familiar (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Extra_Familiar,all) feat approved they make great funnels (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC_VqRQzU_U&fmt=18). :smallbiggrin:

(Other psicrystal feats: Air Heritage (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Air_Heritage,all))

Bulwer
2009-08-20, 12:24 PM
If one of you delays so that your initiatives match, you might be able to interweave their actions.

Of course, if your psicrystal still has actions left you have it take Shape Soulmeld (dissolving spittle) and Bonus Essentia for a ranged touch attack which deals up to 3d6 acid damage (more with Psionic Shot). If you can get a psionic adaptation of the Extra Familiar (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Extra_Familiar,all) feat approved they make great funnels (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC_VqRQzU_U&fmt=18). :smallbiggrin:

(Other psicrystal feats: Air Heritage (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Air_Heritage,all))

This build is already absurdly awesome, and I haven't even touched half of it yet.

Prime32
2009-08-20, 01:14 PM
You still have things like Energise Armor and Speed of Thought to look at, since you will never lose psionic focus. :smallbiggrin:

For the fluff side: When using Psionic Weapon, describe it as your psicrystal firing a beam at your sword to power it up.

Bulwer
2009-08-20, 03:05 PM
You still have things like Energise Armor and Speed of Thought to look at, since you will never lose psionic focus. :smallbiggrin:

For the fluff side: When using Psionic Weapon, describe it as your psicrystal firing a beam at your sword to power it up.

I'm going to finish up the Psion side, stat out the crystal fully, then pick maneuvers for the Warblade side.

If I can spare a feat for Weapon Finesse (on the crystal), it might be pretty useful: It's got half my HP, which is rather a lot, plus 15 Dex. It could deliver a Hostile Empathic Transfer for me, and everyone loves smacking enemies with 50 typeless damage and getting healing in return.

Bulwer
2009-08-21, 08:41 AM
Take the Psicrystal Containment feat, then have your psicrystal take the Hidden Talent (or Wild Talent) and Psionic Meditation feats.

Now you can expend your psicrystal's psionic focus in place of your own, and your psicrystal can focus itself.

Psicrystals don't have the Wisdom for Psionic Meditation and doesn't have the body slots for a boost item.

EDIT: It's also got to hit DC 20 to become focused, move action or no. With such a low INT, how can it get up that high consistently?

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-21, 09:03 AM
Psicrystals don't have the Wisdom for Psionic Meditation and doesn't have the body slots for a boost item.

EDIT: It's also got to hit DC 20 to become focused, move action or no. With such a low INT, how can it get up that high consistently?

A Belt of Magnificence and Skill Focus (Concentration), along with an item to boost Concentration checks.

Bulwer
2009-08-21, 09:05 AM
A Belt of Magnificence and Skill Focus (Concentration), along with an item to boost Concentration checks.

I'm envisioning a fist-sized crystal floating in midair with a belt cinched around it and about three feet of slack hanging off.

Faleldir
2009-08-21, 09:05 AM
If one of you delays so that your initiatives match, you might be able to interweave their actions.

Can't your psicrystal ready an action to focus?

Prime32
2009-08-21, 09:12 AM
Psicrystals don't have the Wisdom for Psionic Meditation and doesn't have the body slots for a boost item.
Like any character they get an ability boost every four levels, so they qualify by level 12.


EDIT: It's also got to hit DC 20 to become focused, move action or no. With such a low INT, how can it get up that high consistently?
Actually, Concentration is Con-based, so they can't get an ability bonus to it (though they don't take a penalty either). If you just give it Skill Focus (Concentration) it stacks with whatever ranks you have in the skill, so without any other help it succeeds on a roll of 10 by lv4.

Bulwer
2009-08-21, 09:19 AM
Can't your psicrystal ready an action to focus?
Yes, but you need to have taken a standard action to do so.

Here's the plan if the crystal goes first:

Crystal's Turn: use the standard action to ready an action to psionically focus when the focus is expended, and use the move action for whatever.

My Turn: expend my focus or its or both, then use my move action to refocus if I can spare it. End the turn with at least the crystal focused again. EDIT: OH WOW. Say I burn both focuses on a Quickened Extended power. The crystal refocuses, I refocus with my move action. I STILL HAVE MY STANDARD ACTION, which I can use on ANOTHER double meta-psioniced power.

If I go first:

My Turn: same as above, but the crystal won't refocus, leaving me without focus if I expended both and didn't refocus myself.

Crystal's Turn: Move action focus, standard action to ready another focus.

Bulwer
2009-08-21, 09:20 AM
Like any character they get an ability boost every four levels, so they qualify by level 12.


Actually, Concentration is Con-based, so they can't get an ability bonus to it (though they don't take a penalty either). If you just give it Skill Focus (Concentration) it stacks with whatever ranks you have in the skill, so without any other help it succeeds on a roll of 10 by lv4.

I was referring to having very low skill points: with a -2 modifier, that's just one point per HD.

tonberrian
2009-08-21, 09:30 AM
I was referring to having very low skill points: with a -2 modifier, that's just one point per HD.


Skills
A psicrystal has the same skill ranks as its owner, except that it has a minimum of 4 ranks each in Spot, Listen, Move Silently, and Search. (Even if its owner has no ranks in these skills, a psicrystal has 4 ranks in each.) A psicrystal uses its own ability modifiers on skill checks.

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm#psicrystals).

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-21, 09:34 AM
I'm envisioning a fist-sized crystal floating in midair with a belt cinched around it and about three feet of slack hanging off.

A resized one costs about 300gp more, tops. The magic item qualities aren't multiplied by changing size categories. Alternatively, graft the belt to your Psicrystal, and call it Chimecho (http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Chimecho_(Pok%C3%A9mon)).

Bulwer
2009-08-21, 09:44 AM
From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm#psicrystals).

Yay!

Re items for crystals: a +2 WIS item is all I need for the feat requirements, I think. Is there something that could be used to make it good at making touch attacks?

tonberrian
2009-08-21, 09:47 AM
You should make that +2 Wis item an Ioun Stone if you can afford it. Then you could say your Psycrystal had a Psycrystal.

Bulwer
2009-08-21, 09:52 AM
You should make that +2 Wis item an Ioun Stone if you can afford it. Then you could say your Psycrystal had a Psycrystal.

I'd be like the center of my own solar system.

Er, shifting gears to the other side of the gestalt for a second, am I misreading or is Diamond Defense as good as it looks?

PinkysBrain
2009-08-21, 10:08 AM
Just curious, why the psion over the wilder?

CO wise the psion is better ... but if you play him optimized you will be very rarely attacking with a weapon, using your powers will almost always be better. With the wilder's more limited power list you get nudged towards melee.

Bulwer
2009-08-21, 10:19 AM
Just curious, why the psion over the wilder?

CO wise the psion is better ... but if you play him optimized you will be very rarely attacking with a weapon, using your powers will almost always be better. With the wilder's more limited power list you get nudged towards melee.

The intent is that I wind up with enough actions to do both, as both classes can mess with the action economy. Quicksilver Motion, for example, gives me another move action, plus all the wacky psionic stuff and the crystal shenanigans under discussion. I could manifest a quickened power with other metapsionics on it, refocus both me and my crystal for free, move, then take a standard action maneuver.

Oh, and I'm more familiar with the Psion, so there's that.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-21, 10:19 AM
Just curious, why the psion over the wilder?

CO wise the psion is better ... but if you play him optimized you will be very rarely attacking with a weapon, using your powers will almost always be better. With the wilder's more limited power list you get nudged towards melee.

Because Wilder has 11 powers known at 20th level, and a chance of losing actions whenever they use Wild Surge. Warblade all ready offers Full BAB and a Good Fort (plus Int to nearly everything) and the Psion has better powers and bonus feats to complement the build.

Played right, the Warblade side is the Panic Button. Alternatively, he can use Temporal Acceleration to buff up, then close the gap and rape them with the Warblade side while a Schism and Quicken Power renew buffs/debuff the enemy.

tonberrian
2009-08-21, 10:20 AM
Psion just meshes better.

First of all, there is the Intelligence synergy between Psion and Warblade. Without that, Bulwer would have to have a high Charisma as well, and he doesn't quite have the stats for that.

Secondly, Wilder trades a lot of powers known and bonus feats for a higher BaB and HD, both of which are made irrelevant due to the Warblade. Wild Surge actually hurts the Wilder, and the other abilities are nothing to write home about, either. Psion gets handy bonus feats.

PinkysBrain
2009-08-21, 10:26 AM
Because Wilder has 11 powers known at 20th level, and a chance of losing actions whenever they use Wild Surge.
There are ways around that nowadays.

I know psion is better ... but ranged combat and SoDs are also better than melee, risk/reward wise melee is almost always a suboptimal option if it can be avoided. As a psion you generally can avoid it.

BTW, for the race ... Karsite is also an alternative, LA+2 is rather high given the statboosts but the magic draining ability could be handy with lots of attacks.

Bulwer
2009-08-21, 10:31 AM
There are ways around that nowadays.

I know psion is better ... but ranged combat and SoDs are also better than melee, risk/reward wise melee is almost always a suboptimal option if it can be avoided. As a psion you generally can avoid it.

Combat's a lot less risky when you've got all the powers of a psion and the hit points and maneuvers of a warblade.

Incidentally, does anyone know how to get a psicrystal to threaten squares so it can flank for me?

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-21, 10:32 AM
There are ways around that nowadays.

I know psion is better ... but ranged combat and SoDs are also better than melee, risk/reward wise melee is almost always a suboptimal option if it can be avoided. As a psion you generally can avoid it.

Properly buffed, a character with a d12 HD, Full BAB, and is able to abuse every action he is capable of taking will be a threat. If he intends to tank for the party, he's better off being able to buff himself with a Psion than a Wilder.

Also, Power Access. The Psion gets Disciplines and is capable of manifesting Greater Metamorphosis. That alone makes the Psion a better choice.

Edit: Martial Study/Stance for the Shadow Hand stance that provides flanking and Enlarge on the crystal (shared between the two of you).

tonberrian
2009-08-21, 10:36 AM
Combat's a lot less risky when you've got all the powers of a psion and the hit points and maneuvers of a warblade.

Incidentally, does anyone know how to get a psicrystal to threaten squares so it can flank for me?

First thing that comes to mind is Arms of the Naga (Savage Species) and a reach weapon, but that's pretty expensive (56,000 gp + the weapon's price).

Bulwer
2009-08-21, 10:38 AM
First thing that comes to mind is Arms of the Naga (Savage Species) and a reach weapon, but that's pretty expensive (56,000 gp + the weapon's price).

Is there a way to Enlarge it so it's big enough to automatically threaten?

tonberrian
2009-08-21, 10:50 AM
The problem is that a psycrystal lacks an attack to threaten squares with. It needs either a way to wield weapons (Arms of the Naga) or the ability to make unarmed attacks (IUS if I understand the rules correctly).

Prime32
2009-08-21, 11:42 AM
Is there a way to Enlarge it so it's big enough to automatically threaten?Sure, have your psion take Expanded Knowledge (expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm)). Or better yet, use metamorphosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm) to turn it into something nasty like this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psionKiller.htm) and ride it as a mount (remember, it can still fly magically).

Bulwer
2009-08-21, 12:20 PM
Deep Impact + Power Attack + a damage-heavy maneuver will be my melee staple, I think.

For my stances, I'm leaning toward this list (DM is allowing delaying the second stance for a level):

1: Hunter's Sense (you smell that?)
3: Absolute Steel Stance (speed freak)
5: Dancing Blade Form (for those hard-to-reach places)
8: Stance of Alactrity (free immediate action yes please)

Bulwer
2009-08-21, 12:54 PM
Okay, I've got a list of maneuvers I'd love some feedback on.

Iron Heart Surge (obvious choice)

Disarming Strike (I could replace this with any maneuver up to 4th level)

Ruby Nightmare Blade (Double Damage + PA + Deep Impact)

Elder Mountain Hammer (DR? Psh.)

Iron Heart Focus

Greater Insightful Strike (double concentration check for dmg, but do I need it?)

Iron Heart Endurance (healing is good)

Quicksilver Motion (move action!)

Diamond Defense (big save boost. Add Stance of Alacrity and Iron Heart Focus, and it becomes really unlikely that I ever fail a save)

Adamantine Hurricane (crowd control)

I also have a free space open for anything up to 6th level. Suggestions?

quick_comment
2009-08-21, 12:57 PM
Dont bother with quicksilver motion. You should probably be an egoist anyway, so you have access to hustle.

Bulwer
2009-08-21, 01:01 PM
Dont bother with quicksilver motion. You should probably be an egoist anyway, so you have access to hustle.

I looked through the lists, and decided on Telepath, actually. Hostile Empathic Transfer, Dominate, and Schism outweighed Hustle.

Prime32
2009-08-21, 01:01 PM
Greater Insightful Strike (double concentration check for dmg, but do I need it?)
Go for it - you'll be maxing out Concentration anyway. Skill Focus gets you +6 damage.


I looked through the lists, and decided on Telepath, actually. Hostile Empathic Transfer, Dominate, and Schism outweighed Hustle.Hustle and the ability to turn your psicrystal into a giant floating psion-killer? :smallconfused: (free action dispel 1/round!)
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/33546.jpg

Still, there's always Expanded Knowledge.

Bulwer
2009-08-21, 01:03 PM
Go for it - you'll be maxing out Concentration anyway. Skill Focus gets you +6 damage.

I dunno, I suspect it'll wind up on the shelf, since I have so many other ways to impart large amounts of damage.

EDIT: Well, Hustle I can ignore since it's the same as Quicksilver Motion, and Metamorphasis is "Target: You": how could I get a pet Psion-Killer?

Bulwer
2009-08-21, 01:25 PM
Psion Powers:

1: Offensive Precognition, Vigor, Catfall, Far Hand, Inertial Armor
2: Brain Lock, Crystalstorm, Energy Push, Ego Whip
3: Hostile Empathic Transfer, Dispel Psionics, Body Purification, Touchsight
4: Schism, Psionic Dominate, Psionic Dimension Door, Psionic Freedom of Movement
5: Mind Probe, Psionic Plane Shift, Cranial Deluge, Adapt Body
6: Psionic Disintegrate, Temporal Acceleration, Psionic Contingency
7: Decerebrate, Evade Burst, Personal Mind Blank
8: Psionic Greater Teleport, True Metabolism, Shadow Body

I've got a ton of feats left, so learning more is quite possible. Also, are there any books with good powers in them that aren't XPH or CPsi?

PinkysBrain
2009-08-21, 01:39 PM
Additionally, the owner can manifest a power with a target of “You” on his psicrystal (as a touch range power) instead of on himself.
This is only really relevant when you have the time to prebuff, otherwise you'd probably use a polymorph which you could both share ... if you are a warforged, in that case you can both take this form with one manifestation of course.

woodenbandman
2009-08-21, 01:51 PM
going soul manifester never hurt, especially if you want to be a telepath. get insane boosts to the DCs of your telepathy powers.

Lycanthromancer
2009-08-21, 01:59 PM
Psion Powers:

1: Offensive Precognition, Vigor, Catfall, Far Hand, Inertial Armor
2: Brain Lock, Crystalstorm, Energy Push, Ego Whip
3: Hostile Empathic Transfer, Dispel Psionics, Body Purification, Touchsight
4: Schism, Psionic Dominate, Psionic Dimension Door, Psionic Freedom of Movement
5: Mind Probe, Psionic Plane Shift, Cranial Deluge, Adapt Body
6: Psionic Disintegrate, Temporal Acceleration, Psionic Contingency
7: Decerebrate, Evade Burst, Personal Mind Blank
8: Psionic Greater Teleport, True Metabolism, Shadow Body

I've got a ton of feats left, so learning more is quite possible. Also, are there any books with good powers in them that aren't XPH or CPsi?

My psionic powers revision (http://www.sendspace.com/file/p7jbro) seems to have quite a large number of the bigger homebrew names as proponents.

I tried my best to reduce redundancy, turn multiple similar powers into single powers with augments, smooth over loopholes and (rare but existent) brokenness, and give manifesters considerably more options when choosing powers (mostly to compensate for the fact that psionics has very few options past the XPH and - ugh - Complete Psionic). Not to mention that I've brought a lot of the more useless powers up to snuff with some of the better ones.

And though I've added a ton of new stuff, it was all made as a cohesive whole, with an eye toward eliminating broken combos.

Also, 0-level talents and universally-scaling save DCs.

(Yes, I've brought this up before, but I feel it's worth re-mentioning.)

Bulwer
2009-08-21, 02:05 PM
My psionic powers revision (http://www.sendspace.com/file/p7jbro) seems to have quite a large number of the bigger homebrew names as proponents.

I tried my best to reduce redundancy, turn multiple similar powers into single powers with augments, smooth over loopholes and (rare but existent) brokenness, and give manifesters considerably more options when choosing powers (mostly to compensate for the fact that psionics has very few options past the XPH and - ugh - Complete Psionic). Not to mention that I've brought a lot of the more useless powers up to snuff with some of the better ones.

And though I've added a ton of new stuff, it was all made as a cohesive whole, with an eye toward eliminating broken combos.

Also, 0-level talents and universally-scaling save DCs.

(Yes, I've brought this up before, but I feel it's worth re-mentioning.)

Unfortunately, I can't sell a big chunk of homebrew like that to the DM, but that looks like just what psionics needs to be a little more unified.

Bulwer
2009-08-21, 02:45 PM
Guess what? Flaws! I take Inattentive and Vulnerable, and now I've got enough feats to do anything I could ever want. Unfortunately, I don't really know what it is I want.

Here's the list. P means Psion, W means Warblade, F means Flaw.

1: Psionic Weapon
3:
6: Deep Impact
9: Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphasis)
12:
15:
18: n/a
P1: Psicrystal Affinity
P5: Psicrystal Containment
P10: Quicken Power
P15: Extend Power
P20: n/a
W5: Improved Initiative
W9: Combat Reflexes
W13:
W17: n/a
F: Power Attack
F: Adaptive Style


Acrobatic, Agile, Athletic, Blade Meditation*, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Ironheart*, Lightning Reflexes, Quick Draw, Run, Stone Power*, Tiger Blooded*, Unnerving Calm*, White Raven Defense*.

4 feats open. Maybe a tactical feat, maybe an exotic weapon instead of the Spetum I'd been planning on. What's worth having?

EDIT: Overchannel is great with a ton of HP. I'll also take Twin Power. Still need a Warblade feat and a 15th level feat.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-21, 03:27 PM
going soul manifester never hurt, especially if you want to be a telepath. get insane boosts to the DCs of your telepathy powers.

I'd like to ask what you mean, but I all ready know where the problem lies. They never should have made the Charming Veil.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-21, 03:38 PM
You should make that +2 Wis item an Ioun Stone if you can afford it. Then you could say your Psycrystal had a Psycrystal.

OH GOD LOL I need to do this now.

EDIT: also, concealing amorpha (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/concealingAmorpha.htm) (or the greater (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/concealingAmorphaGreater.htm) version) plus the Pearl of Black Doubt stance is hilariously defensive. Every time they miss, your AC increases. Your concealment makes them miss 20% (or 50%) of the time, which makes your AC go up, which makes you harder to hit, which makes your AC go up...

EDIT EDIT: Also try the Instant Clarity feat. 3/day, gain psionic focus as a swift action after using a maneuver.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-21, 03:53 PM
EDIT EDIT: Also try the Instant Clarity feat. 3/day, gain psionic focus as a swift action after using a maneuver.

After using a martial strike.


Oh, funny combo if you're interested:


Psychic Renewal: Let me spell this out for you guys: At will, as a Swift action, I can expend up to 9pp and my Focus to recover any martial maneuver I have readied and subsequently expended. Ruby Knight Vindicators can get extra Swift actions/round at the cost of turn attempts, and the PP can be from any source you can normally manifest from (like a Cognizance Crystal, or your 20 free PP from being a Kalashtar). A Xeph is capable of spending Swift actions to take a Move action (and a Psion or PsiWar can do the same thing). The Psychic Meditation feat allows you to recover your Focus with a Move action and a DC 20 Concentration check. White Raven Tactics can be used to give someone else extra actions.

Basically, get a **** ton of Crystals, a War Mind/Ruby Knight Vindicator with White Raven Tactics, Hustle, and an ass load of Turn Undead, and you can allow your entire party to take an extra turn. Get two of those War Mind/RKVs in the same room, and they can turn loop each other. Or you can allow the party's Wizard 8 extra turns. Technically, anyone can do a limited version of this if they have the right setup.


Note that you can do this by yourself if you know the Fission power. Here's the trick:


Manifest Fission and Schism with White Raven Tactics readied and your Psionic Focus unexpended. You need Psychic Meditation to do this. May want Temporal Acceleration to set up.
Move up.
Initiate White Rave Tactics on your Fission'ed self.
Use the Standard action from Schism to recover White Raven Tactics.
Have your Fission'ed other self move up and Strike with any attack you know (or a power, or just take the Attack action). Have him Initiate White Raven Tactics on you. Have his Schism'ed mind recover his Psionic Focus.
Take your turn doing exactly what your other self just did.
Run from your DM's inevitable wrath.


If I'm missing something about Fission that prevents this, please let me know.

Grynning
2009-08-21, 05:38 PM
[B]
Initiate White Rave Tactics on your Fission'ed self.


This conjured imagery of a 16 year old blond kid with glowsticks, on E, dancing with an exact duplicate of himself. The sentence would also make a great sample in a cheesy techno song...
*BUMP BUMP BUMP*
*dee da dee dee*
"Initiate White Rave Tactics on yo Fission'ed self!"
*BUMP BUMP BUMP*
Etc...

Bulwer
2009-08-22, 12:46 AM
You also gain all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form (such as constrict, improved grab, and poison) but do not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form (such as blindsense, fast healing, regeneration, and scent) or any supernatural, psionic, or spell-like abilities.

Metamorphosis into Psion-Killer isn't so hot when there's no dispelling or immunity.

Looks like I need to find a 15-or-less HD construct with cool (Ex) abilities.

Bulwer
2009-08-22, 01:47 AM
Items:

Arms-
Body- +1 Leather Armor 1160GP (+6 worth of enchantments-- any suggestions?)
Face-
Feet- Anklet of Translocation 1400GP
Hands-
Head- Headband of Intellect +6 36000GP
Rings-
Shoulders-
Throat- Periapt of Wisdom +4 16000GP (for Psionic Meditation)
Torso-
Waist- Belt of Battle 12000GP (Actions!)

Other:

+2 Wisdom Ioun stone 8000GP (for the pet rock)
Weapons! My Spetum needs enchantment, and I could do with something piercing and/or slashing in the golf bag.

No more that 52,000 an item.

I don't play at high levels often; what are some real essentials? What do I need to be able to resist and penetrate and so on?

Gralamin
2009-08-22, 02:00 AM
Metamorphosis into Psion-Killer isn't so hot when there's no dispelling or immunity.

Looks like I need to find a 15-or-less HD construct with cool (Ex) abilities.


Dispel Psionics (Su)
I wonder if this would be helpful (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#metamorphicTransfer)

Prime32
2009-08-22, 06:15 AM
Metamorphosis into Psion-Killer isn't so hot when there's no dispelling or immunity.

Looks like I need to find a 15-or-less HD construct with cool (Ex) abilities.
*cough* (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#metamorphicTransfer)
It's warm at least.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Bulwer
2009-08-22, 05:34 PM
Well, it would be nice to have a big crystal flanking buddy that can dispel three times a day for free. I finished my feat list yesterday, take a look at see what might be able to go away.

1: Psionic Weapon
3: Overchannel
6: Deep Impact
9: Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis)
12: Twin Power
15: Psionic Meditation
18: n/a
P1: Psicrystal Affinity
P5: Psicrystal Containment
P10: Quicken Power
P15: Extend Power
P20: n/a
W5: Improved Initiative
W9: Combat Reflexes
W13: Quick Draw
W17: n/a
F: Power Attack
F: Instant Clarity

Also, does anyone have any ideas on the equipment? (the list's on the bottom of page 3)

Fax Celestis
2009-08-22, 05:38 PM
Look at Psionatrices.

Bulwer
2009-08-22, 05:49 PM
Look at Psionatrices.

That's pretty cheap for a DC bonus.