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Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-19, 07:49 PM
I'm still new to SAGA and I wanted some help with a Sith I'm building. The idea is that's she's a powerful Force-Sorceress that fights almost exclusively with the Force.

Help is needed in;
1) Deciding Force Powers.
2) Any possible improvement in talents/feats/techniques?
3) Any item/equipment suggestions?

AstralFire
2009-08-19, 08:23 PM
1) I would reconsider not having any levels in Force Adept for Force Adept. Around this level, Force Powers begin having trouble keeping up with defenses at times - rerolling can help a lot. Though see point (12). However, investment in Force Power Adept gets you into Force Disciple, which is really nice with that extra destiny point every level. And nothing's preventing you from picking up Serenity from Jedi Master.
2) You want Rebuke so that you don't get screwed by people shooting your own powers back at you.
3) Force Harmony talent from JATM combos well with point 1. Absorbs your force point usage with Force Power Adept and lets you spend a Force Point on something else, for a semi-accurate nova.
4) The Fringe Savant talent from Scout again combos nicely - Temp Force Point on each Natural 20.
5) Force Lightning is still good thanks to its Force Point effect. Just no good on anything with a lightsaber who didn't neglect Deflect.
6) Cloak power is pretty wicked with stealth equipment to prevent first strikes on you.
7) Some of my favorite gear:

Sound Sponge (The Force Unleashed)
Arakyd Hush-About Personal Jetpack (Force Unleashed) with Miniaturization (Scum and Villainy)
Portable Generator (Core) with Miniaturization (S&V). Suddenly your jetpack runs forever.
Holoshroud (The Force Unleashed)
Superior Tech improvements. 4,000 credits for +2 to accuracy is great. If you can argue that a holocron or something can be used to assist in Use the Force checks, there's a source of +2 to UtF rolls for you.
KotOR visors. Why get training, especially at your level?

8) You won't need Shii-Cho unless you're really, really planning on fighting a lot of mooks. Because most of those mooks aren't going to be have a good chance of hitting you in the first place, and Soresu's already crazy.
9) Get a dual-phase saber so you can use two different types of crystals. I'd recommend the +block and +deflect as your two types.
10) Get a second dual-phase saber. >:D As long as you can find more passive benefits you want, anyway. You don't have to attack with the other weapon, after all.
11) Channel Energy talent from JATM also pairs up well with Force Harmony above.
12) Pick up a Sith Amulet and Sith Talisman, both from JATM. If you can get a Sith Amulet, disregard anything about Force Power Adept because you can reroll all of your telekinetic effects for free.
13) Don't underestimate a Mind Trick in the middle of a battle.
14) Are you wearing armor just for the Fort D boost? Without talents, it's currently overriding (lowering) your Reflex Defense. o.o Or is your GM allowing you to 'wear the armor' but ignore the defense bonuses so you can get Dark Armor traits? If that's the case, what's 'Dark Power'? Do you mean 'Dark Side Energy'?

Katana_Geldar
2009-08-19, 08:39 PM
Threats of the Galaxy has a few arcitypes you can use, and I think Jedi Academy does too. They are good places to start.

It really depends on what you want to do as GM with the villain. This blog (http://www.campaignmastery.com/blog/an-epic-confusion/) talks about it a bit, about selecting powers and for the various reasons

toturi
2009-08-19, 11:14 PM
At that level I'd really recommend getting Force Adept for Force Disciple. With the various Force Disciple has immunity to mind effects, which means that you'd not be vulnerable to any level 1 Scoundrel with Stymie or other similar mind affecting effects. Since you are a force wizard type, the lesser attack bonus should not be bothering you as much.

If you have Legacy, it would be good to have your villian to have a Heirloom item. And Heirloom dual phase lightsaber is good to have, or a Heirloom Dark armor. As for Superior Tech improvements, I suppose to be fair, you should allow the PCs to get what the villian can get. Rules-wise, I see no problems with a +2 UTF Lightsaber. If you do not want to waste a talent on Armored Def, then perhaps you could look at getting an Heirloom Dark Armor thinsuit. There is no Ref bonus, there is no Fort bonus, but you could cram in a mod or two.

Of course, if the PCs are smart, prepared and they know that they are facing a Sith or some Force user, then you should be prepared for ysalamiri. Also there are several Bounty Hunter Talents that work against Force users, presumably they were supposed to be used against Jedi, but I had a Jedi Bounty Hunter PC turning them against my BBEG, so you should beware of those.

Caewil
2009-08-20, 12:46 AM
Perpared for Danger (JaTM) + Renew Visions (KotoR). You can swap a use of farseeing for another power you possess as a swift action and can refresh your pool of farseeings 1/encounter. Unmatched versatility. That would let you drop a couple of the Force Trainings as well. If you take the others advice (you should) and go for Force Disciple, make sure you grab the Unleashed feat if allowed to do so. With 2 destiny points/level, you'll be able to make good use of it. Unleashed Force grip with your charisma would be a winner.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-20, 02:35 AM
Thanks for the advice, people. A few things:

@Astral Fire;
Yeah, I meant Dark Side Energy. That coupled with Dark Side Adept means any [dark side] power gets a +2 and a reroll automatically. Force Flow means I get a force point every time I roll a 1, too.

@toturi;
Uh, I didn't know about armor replacing your normal bonus wether you wanted it or not. I may need to rething the armor stuff.

@Arachnid;
Where is Renew Visions? I can't find it.

toturi
2009-08-20, 03:21 AM
Thanks for the advice, people. A few things:
@toturi;
Uh, I didn't know about armor replacing your normal bonus wether you wanted it or not. I may need to rething the armor stuff.

You already have Armored Defense, so your character can use her character level bonus. My point was that using a force user the ability to use armor is not essential and you could get a Force Talent in place of the Armor Defense Talent.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-20, 03:56 AM
Well, I'd been wanting afflict+drain; each time I damage an enemy with the Force they take +2d6 damage, lose a force point AND I get to recover a force power-namely the power I just used.

Kiero
2009-08-20, 04:48 AM
As a suggestion you're free to discard, how about a level of Noble with Noble Fencing from KotOR? For a single Talent they get to use their Charisma for attack bonus rather than their Strength. Which is a big deal for this character, without actually investing a great deal in combat ability.

I'd even go so far as to start them out Noble, provided it doesn't conflict with the concept, because you'd get a whole bunch of Trained Skills. Including no need to spend a Feat on Skill Training: Sith Lore.

I'd also say seven Feats in Force Training is totally unnecessary. I'm not even sure that's kosher, since you can only buy it with Character Feats.

DMfromTheAbyss
2009-08-20, 05:23 AM
My recomendation would be to concentrate less on armor and weapon mods and just keep a good variety of powers that can be useful in a number of situations. You're playing a "wizard" style character, don't be afraid to sacrifice a little in the physical department to get access to a variety of useful powers. (The Starting level of Noble might work too to give you a better skill base)

The Force Adept and disciple powers would make a certain sense for your character as well, both for the above listed reasons and the fact that it gives you a broader RP view of the force (seen from a force Adepts Philosophical viewpoint not just a Sith's)

And remember the character need not stand alone, that's what minions, allies and apprentices are for.

Just to help the discussion along, for reference I'm the DM for this particular game, and the Sith lord in the OP is a player in a group, not a villian/ boss. Yes I'm letting them have fun with powerful darkside characters.. yes there's a reason, yes they'll still be challenged by what they're up against...:smallbiggrin: And due to story reasons... remember no lightsabers.

PS: I'm saving going over the characters with a fine toothed comb till all the characters are in... you have time to play with the character still, don't panic.

AstralFire
2009-08-20, 08:31 AM
Re-echoing Force Disciple for immunity to all mind-affecting, too.


My recomendation would be to concentrate less on armor and weapon mods and just keep a good variety of powers that can be useful in a number of situations. You're playing a "wizard" style character, don't be afraid to sacrifice a little in the physical department to get access to a variety of useful powers. (The Starting level of Noble might work too to give you a better skill base)

Jedi Academy Training Manual recommends as an option allowing Jedi to wear armor but forsake its benefits to Reflex and Fortitude Defense. Given that Use the Force checks are again, starting to have trouble keeping up by this level and Belial's armor gives him a +2 to rolls with [dark side], that may be something you want to consider.

Superior Tech for 4000 credits or 20% of the Dark Armor's price (whichever is higher) will increase its bonus to +4.

I would ease up off of all of the many Force Trainings. As noted, I'm not even sure that's legal. Still would look at Fringe Savant for a Force Point off of all Natural 20s - that's more useful than Force Flow since you won't be rerolling for a different score if you get a Nat 20, you will for a Nat 1 a lot of times. Throw in Telekinetic Power to make those even more useful - Nat 20s let you fire twice. For a high-level Force Witch, here is every power that I can ever see being useful without homebrew:
Core:
Farseeing
Force Grip
Force Lightning
Force Stun
Mind Trick
Move Object
Negate Energy
Rebuke
Sever Force
Surge

The Clone Wars:

Cloak
Phase
Technometry


Knights of the Old Republic:

Energy Resistance
Force Scream
Kinetic Combat
Resist Force


Jedi Academy Training Manual:

Blind
Drain Energy
Fold Space
Force Light
Force Track
Hatred
Intercept
Memory Walk
Mind Shard
Plant Surge
Circle of Shelter


The Force Unleashed:

Force Shield
Force Storm (not the same as in JATM!)
Repulse


Legacy Era:

Combustion
Obscure
Prescience


You don't need all of these by a long shot, as you are limited to one reaction per event - can't Deflect, Negate Energy, AND intercept on one shot. This list should look more like:

OFFENSE:
Force Grip - Can be Rebuked, targets a frequent high save, but denies actions and deals damage. Good as a swift (Quicken) or when maintainable as one (Extend from The Clone Wars).
Force Lightning - Targets Reflex, not dependent on damage threshold, brings down Soldiers and mooks best, Jedi worst. Some soldiers with really high Reflex D are still a pain to hit with this, but one good hit can make the whole battle go smooth.
Memory Walk - For those times you need to target Will, the person has a high damage threshold and an easy method to damage you from range.
Move Object - Carry around cheap items (I use Fusion Torches) so they can target Reflex. It hits one target, can't be Deflected (it's not an attack) or Negate Energy (deals physical damage) or Rebuked (they're not the primary target - the Torch is, and the power only specifies the target as the one that has to make the Will Save.) Best against Jedi as Reflex. Accurate against Soldiers as Will, but likely not to bring them down quickly.
Mind Trick - Having someone run in terror effectively removes them from the fight.


DEFENSE:
Drain Energy. Can't be rebuked.
Energy Resistance. Terrible on its own, but with Extend... With this your Negate Energy checks just got a flat +20 bonus.
Fold Space. Free disarm! It can't be rebuked.
Intercept. The only way to stop grenades, missiles, move object projectiles. Reduces strain on your Deflect and Block, which also means you can dump Shii-Cho in most cases.
Negate Energy. You can heal yourself with it, if you get Channel Energy you can also attack someone after you absorb their shot. Reduces strain on your Deflect and Block, which also means you can dump Shii-Cho in most cases.
Prescience. Iffy since you don't benefit from the attack bonus, but +3's not bad since it's a swift action.
Rebuke. 'nuff said.


UTILITY:
Farseeing. It's scrying and as noted, talents let you sub it out for a lot.
Force Track depending on the type of campaign.
Mind Trick. 'nuff said.

With prodigy, you get 9 force powers per feat. You could honestly get by with less feats here, easy.

Four Feats:
Move Object x7
Force Grip x1
Force Lightning x4
Drain Energy x2
Rebuke x4
Memory Walk x1
Mind Trick x3
Intercept x3
Force Track x1
Fold Space x2
Energy Resistance x1
Negate Energy x4
Prescience x2
Farseeing x1 (unless you go for Renew + PfD, but I wouldn't recommend overdosing since you have to convert the powers as swifts).

You can go with five feats if you want, bulking up on where you feel you're most vulnerable. Six (your limit)... don't think it's necessary. Especially for anyone who takes a level in Jedi Master. If you fight with cover often, it is entirely possible to duck behind something, serenity + anything and hey, you've got all your tricks back. Still, there shouldn't be any fights where you feel strained, with eleven attack powers and a functional maximum of 3 attack powers in the first round (Standard, Quickened, Force Harmony'D Channel Energy'D), and 2 every round thereafter. That's five rounds of nova.

Candidates for your now free feats:
Unleashed (Unleashed Force Grip, Unleashed Force Lightning are both really good, Unleashed Move Object can be used in conjunction with Force Point usage). From TFU.
Unstoppable Force. +5 to Fort and Will against all UtF. You are a prime target for Sever Force. From TCW.
Improved Damage Threshold.

Other talent to consider I haven't mentioned yet:
Equilibrium (core, Force Talent.) Someone WILL hit you and knock you down the condition track once in a while. This gets you back up.

You will want to carry extra power packs/put in modifications for two power packs inserted at once (from S&V) so your own sabers aren't easy to drain.

toturi
2009-08-21, 04:56 AM
Superior Tech for 4000 credits or 20% of the Dark Armor's price (whichever is higher) will increase its bonus to +4.

OFFENSE:

Move Object - Carry around cheap items (I use Fusion Torches) so they can target Reflex. It hits one target, can't be Deflected (it's not an attack) or Negate Energy (deals physical damage) or Rebuked (they're not the primary target - the Torch is, and the power only specifies the target as the one that has to make the Will Save.) Best against Jedi as Reflex. Accurate against Soldiers as Will, but likely not to bring them down quickly.

UTILITY:

Mind Trick. 'nuff said.

The problem with Superior Teching a Dark Armor is that named bonus do not stack. So you cannot have +2 Equipment bonus(from Sup tech) with Dark Armor +2 Equipment. What you can do is enhance the existing +2 Equipment bonus of the Dark Armor, but that means you only have the +4 for Dark Side powers.
I'd check the gleemax forums for the Move Object. While the primary target makes the Will Defense, the power is still directed at the secondary target. Hence may be Rebuked.
I'd have thought the Mind Trick to be much more useful for defense - Influence Savant(to get back that Mind Trick) and Suppress Force. Load up on Rebukes and Suppress Force(for those powers you cannot Rebuke). In fact, I have a Force Wizard that does just that. He just sits there and shuts down any other Force Wizards - Mr Blue "No, you do not have permission" Deck.

AstralFire
2009-08-21, 08:41 AM
The problem with Superior Teching a Dark Armor is that named bonus do not stack. So you cannot have +2 Equipment bonus(from Sup tech) with Dark Armor +2 Equipment. What you can do is enhance the existing +2 Equipment bonus of the Dark Armor, but that means you only have the +4 for Dark Side powers.

Er... yeah...? I'm not really sure why you're bringing it up.


I'd check the gleemax forums for the Move Object. While the primary target makes the Will Defense, the power is still directed at the secondary target. Hence may be Rebuked.

I'm pretty sure it's not:
- Fluff-wise, you're controlling something else. Lightsaber powers, including Kinetic Combat, can't be rebuked either.
- Intent-wise, Intercept was introduced in JATM, and specifically allows being used Move Object thrown projectiles. Considering the many defenses already put in for Jedi, the most logical reason I can think of adding another is to cover this hole.
- Rules-wise, only the primary target is listed as a target.


I'd have thought the Mind Trick to be much more useful for defense - Influence Savant(to get back that Mind Trick) and Suppress Force. Load up on Rebukes and Suppress Force(for those powers you cannot Rebuke). In fact, I have a Force Wizard that does just that. He just sits there and shuts down any other Force Wizards - Mr Blue "No, you do not have permission" Deck.

Suppress Force is really good, yeah. :smallsmile: I forgot to mention it. Still, it's great for fighting a large group where you've got someone with low will but high durability - Mind Trick-horror his face and you've got 10 rounds without him bugging you.

toturi
2009-08-21, 11:02 AM
Er... yeah...? I'm not really sure why you're bringing it up.

I'm pretty sure it's not:
- Fluff-wise, you're controlling something else. Lightsaber powers, including Kinetic Combat, can't be rebuked either.
- Intent-wise, Intercept was introduced in JATM, and specifically allows being used Move Object thrown projectiles. Considering the many defenses already put in for Jedi, the most logical reason I can think of adding another is to cover this hole.
- Rules-wise, only the primary target is listed as a target.

If it is a flat +2 equipment bonus to UTF, then you can use the bonus for Block/Deflect, but if you do this, it cannot stack with the +2 equipment bonus for dark side powers. It is a trade-off. Greater offensive power or broader defense. Since the NPC is a Sith, it might be more appropriate to have the +4 dark side UTF, but I think it bears pointing out.

Rules wise, Rebuke doesn't require you to be the target, it just requires the power to be directed at you. Intentwise, I think Intercept was simply introduced to allow a telekinetic to counter a fellow telekinetic - keying off the some of the same Talents that Move Object uses like Telekinetic Savant or Telekinetic Power.

AstralFire
2009-08-21, 11:07 AM
If it is a flat +2 equipment bonus to UTF, then you can use the bonus for Block/Deflect, but if you do this, it cannot stack with the +2 equipment bonus for dark side powers. It is a trade-off. Greater offensive power or broader defense. Since the NPC is a Sith, it might be more appropriate to have the +4 dark side UTF, but I think it bears pointing out.

Oh. I see. Yeah, I wasn't intending to imply that it was a general +4.


Rules wise, Rebuke doesn't require you to be the target, it just requires the power to be directed at you. Intentwise, I think Intercept was simply introduced to allow a telekinetic to counter a fellow telekinetic - keying off the some of the same Talents that Move Object uses like Telekinetic Savant or Telekinetic Power.

But it wasn't directed at you; it was directed at an object which is being directed by that power at you. It's no different from hitting someone with a Lightsaber using Kinetic Combat.

toturi
2009-08-21, 11:22 AM
But it wasn't directed at you; it was directed at an object which is being directed by that power at you. It's no different from hitting someone with a Lightsaber using Kinetic Combat.

I think you are right in saying that it is no different from using Kinetic Combat. But the Move Object is still directed at the second target, the second target is simply not the "target" of the power. Similarly KC can be Rebuked if it is used to attack you. In fact, drawing an AOO on purpose to Rebuke is one of the ways to counter KC. To avoid derailing the thread, I think we have to agree to disagree here.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-21, 01:57 PM
OK guys, thanks for the help, especially with the Force-Powers.


BTW, I still can't find renew visions.

toturi
2009-08-21, 06:48 PM
BTW, I still can't find renew visions.

KOTOR CG. It is a Jedi Consular Talent.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-22, 05:33 AM
Huh. I could have sworn I'd looked there. :smallredface:

Thanks again.