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AzazelAshheart
2009-08-19, 08:40 PM
I neeed help >.< I've been thinking hard over this, but I cannot think of a way to do this.

I'm trying to make a Monk/Dragonmark heir for an eberron campaign that also doubles as a scout/skill monkey. I'll be using the mark of shadows, and would like to know: What do you think would be the best build for this? Lets assume its level 10 (Apparently everyone loves that level >.<). What feats? Items?

Any ideas are fine by me, I just neeeed some helpful advice

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-19, 08:48 PM
Camaradine Monk/Kung Fu Genius to make Int the main stat for monk abilities will help reduce MAD in favor of skill points.

Doc Roc
2009-08-19, 08:51 PM
How much monk do you want, is my question? :) There's a lot of good builds that use 2 and 4 levels of monk, respectively. Can I interest you in such a thing?

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-19, 08:54 PM
I'm intrested in having as much monk as I can.I want to have unarmed combat actually work for me without being weak, but be able to sneak also. At least 4 levels I believe.

Where are those feats from? I cant find them @[email protected]

erikun
2009-08-19, 09:13 PM
Kung Fu Genius is from Dragon #319/Dragon Compendium

Might I recommend a Monk/Zerth Cenobite (Complete Psionic) or a Monk/Psionic Fist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm) (or both)? Yeah, I know I overemphasize on psionics, but adding Psychic Warrior powers (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicPowerList.htm) can give the Monk a bit of utility, or at least addition combat options.

Monks already have Hide/Move Silently as class skills, so you can certainly be a stealthy monk, if you wish.

I'm sure someone will mention the Unarmed Swordsage variant, no doubt with Setting Sun/Shadow Hand maneuvers, so I'll just mention it here. :smallwink:

Demons_eye
2009-08-19, 09:15 PM
There is a feat that lets your monk rouge levels stack for unarmed strike SA.

Goes off to look for it.

Ascetic Rouge- Improved Unarmed Strike and SA Classes feature. Lets monk and rouge levels stack for Unarmed Damage.

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-19, 09:18 PM
I really don't like psionics >.< Not that I think its overpowered, I just cant wrap my head around it.

I'm looking at both the feats and the swordsage, though its up to the dm about the the fightan magic. Anything involving items? Other Feats?

Kylarra
2009-08-19, 09:19 PM
I was sort of hoping for some sort of awakened monkey-monk. :smallfrown:

Carmendine monk allows you to switch your wis to Int for your AC bonus and Stunning Fist DCs, as well as treating you as +2 levels for unarmed, AC or speed after studying for an hour in the morning (duration rest of day).

Champions of Valor pg 28

PinkysBrain
2009-08-19, 09:21 PM
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Carmendine_Monk,all

Anyway ... Human Rogue 4/Monk 1/Dragonmark Heir 5.

Get a monk's belt and a ring of blinking.

It will work really poorly, but it can't be done much better. What you demand from the build clashes with the reality of the rules. Especially the prestige class ... it sucks. Without the prestige class and the wasted prerequisite feats (Dragonmarks are for NPCs, they are very bad) there would be a lot more room to make a decent character.

erikun
2009-08-19, 09:25 PM
Ascetic Rogue (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Ascetic_Rogue,CAd), allows you to Monk/Rogue multiclass, and increase unarmed damage with rogue levels.

And no need to apologize for disliking psionics. This is your build, after all. If anything, I should be apologizing for suggesting something which apparently doesn't fit at all. :smalltongue:

I think I'm out of ideas, honestly. The monk does have a decent selection of skills already, and the Camaradine Monk/Kung Fu Genius will allow you to use INT (for more skill points) as a base stat. I can't think of any prestige classes that work really well with the monk, although I'm sure there are a couple somewhere.

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-19, 09:27 PM
ok, I'll take the criticism ^^

lets assume I don't take the prc, what would you suggest then?

Thank you for all the help *bows* I'm most likely to use the Int replacement with the Ascetic Rogue

erikun
2009-08-19, 09:34 PM
I will admit to having no clue how Dragonmarks work in 3.5e. Would this Shadow Dragonmark Heir grant you sneak attack and such as a rogue? A generous DM might allow the Prestige Class levels to work with the Ascetic Rogue feat too, making the class combination about as optimal as it will get.

Beyond that, good luck and have fun. ^_^

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-19, 09:36 PM
I does not, but it allows free dragonmark feats (essentially) and the shadow mark allows invisibility and different forms divination. I could do that, I'll ask once its possible

Edit: I think I'm going to go with ninja rather than rogue because the multiclass feat for them is much better than the one for a monk/rogue. Any thoughts/criticism?

Grynning
2009-08-19, 09:59 PM
Ninja is generally considered inferior to rogue - fewer skill choices, Sudden Strike is way more situational than SA, and the class features have a lot of the same problem as the monk's class features in that they don't help the character live up to their concept much.

I understand the appeal of wanting to be a Dragonmark Heir, it's a cool flavor concept, but all it really gets you is some spell-like abilities, which can be gained in numerous other ways, or you could just take levels in a spell casting class.

I'm not really good at monk builds, I never played one or really desired too, but a rogue can work very well unarmed using the class as-is just by taking the Imp. Unarmed strike feat. For your concept, Ascetic Rogue does seem to work best. You could pick up a Dragonmark for the lulz without going into the PrC and still be a respected member of the house for story reasons. If you really want a PrC, one to look into might be the Uncanny Trickster from Complete Scoundrel. Skill Tricks aren't terribly strong mechanically, but they are very cool and they would let you add some stuff that would make you feel more martial artsy and awesome.

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-19, 10:09 PM
True :P I might just go Rogue/Monk, though I hate that I cant stack for sneak attack, and take least shadow mark if I have an extra feat or flaw feat.

For said luck, what abilities would you suggest I take? I haven't ever used that before >.<

PinkysBrain
2009-08-19, 10:18 PM
ok, I'll take the criticism ^^

lets assume I don't take the prc, what would you suggest then?
Well ... a human with the unarmed sword sage variant, the able learner feat and either 1 level of rogue or 2 of scout (for uncanny dodge) would work very well.

BTW, don't bother with monk/rogue ... just go straight rogue and use a feat to get improved unarmed strike. The feats which allow monk levels to stack with other classes are a complete waste ... again, just don't take the monk levels.

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-19, 10:23 PM
Why is that? If I did that than my unarmed strikes would always remain as 1d3.

Grynning
2009-08-19, 10:25 PM
True :P I might just go Rogue/Monk, though I hate that I cant stack for sneak attack, and take least shadow mark if I have an extra feat or flaw feat.

For said luck, what abilities would you suggest I take? I haven't ever used that before >.<

Well, I'd just take most of my levels in rogue...one level in monk is really all you need, IMO. Remember, the class levels don't change the character's identity. He can be as much of a "monk" as you want without having many (or any!) levels in the class.
In your 2nd question, I assume your asking about skill tricks. They are not related to luck feats, they're little situational abilities you pick up by spending a couple skill points. There are some useful ones that give you movement and combat options like moving on walls and stuff, although I can't seem to find my CS and I can't remember the names of any of them atm. The Uncanny Trickster PrC gives you more of them for free, has decent skill points and advances the feature of your previous class at 2 of it's 3 levels (which most reasonable DMs would allow to stack with Rogue levels for the purposes of the Ascetic Rogue feat).

Edit: Pinkys saying that you don't *need* any monk features to make a stealthy martial artist work. The low damage on your unarmed strike doesn't matter, die size means nothing in 3.5 compared to bonuses. Most of your damage with any rogue-type character comes from your precision damage. However, I think one level of monk is both fitting and could be helpful to boost your AC and saves, and flurry of blows works pretty well with sneak attack (slightly better than twf at lower levels). If you take the Carmendine Monk feat you reduce the MAD of the build so there's no real reason not to take a level in monk if that's what you want.

PinkysBrain
2009-08-19, 10:27 PM
1d8 with a monk's belt ... but that isn't really relevant.

If you aren't doing real damage you don't belong in melee, you will just be making things hard for the rest of your party ... get a nice ranged weapon or use some scrolls/wands instead with UMD. Regardless of the number of monk levels you take, without sneak attack you won't be doing real damage in melee. If you are doing sneak attack damage then low base damage on your fists doesn't really matter.

Maybe it hasn't sunk in yet ... but the monk is a really really bad class.

Kylarra
2009-08-19, 10:30 PM
Well, I'd just take most of my levels in rogue...one level in monk is really all you need, IMO. Remember, the class levels don't change the character's identity. He can be as much of a "monk" as you want without having many (or any!) levels in the class.
In your 2nd question, I assume your asking about skill tricks. They are not related to luck feats, they're little situational abilities you pick up by spending a couple skill points. There are some useful ones that give you movement and combat options like moving on walls and stuff, although I can't seem to find my CS and I can't remember the names of any of them atm. The Uncanny Trickster PrC gives you more of them for free, has decent skill points and advances the feature of your previous class at 2 of it's 3 levels (which most reasonable DMs would allow to stack with Rogue levels for the purposes of the Ascetic Rogue feat).Monk 2 isn't bad, combat reflexes is quite nice on a rogue, evasion is redundant with rogue levels, but you still get +1 BAB and +1 all saves.


1d8 with a monk's belt ... but that isn't really relevant.

If you aren't doing real damage you don't belong in melee, you will just be making things hard for the rest of your party ... get a nice ranged weapon or use some scrolls/wands instead with UMD. Regardless of the number of monk levels you take, without sneak attack you won't be doing real damage in melee. If you are doing sneak attack damage then low base damage on your fists doesn't really matter.

Maybe it hasn't sunk in yet ... but the monk is a really really bad class.Playing full monk is a bad idea yes, but small dips are not. :p Unarmed Swordsage is the default response, but whatever. Some people don't like ToB.

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-19, 10:30 PM
I understand your point, but with a monks belt I'd be doing a lot more damage than a swordsage. Thank you for the advice though, its much appreciated ^^

I have the book now, and I'm seeing the works of it all. I'm working on the sheet now. Any items that seem relevant?

PinkysBrain
2009-08-19, 10:32 PM
I understand your point, but with a monks belt I'd be doing a lot more damage than a swordsage.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ... no.

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-19, 10:34 PM
*shrugs* the point isn't to powergame anywho, I'm just try to make a fun character without being pathetic

AstralFire
2009-08-19, 10:37 PM
I understand your point, but with a monks belt I'd be doing a lot more damage than a swordsage. Thank you for the advice though, its much appreciated ^^

I have the book now, and I'm seeing the works of it all. I'm working on the sheet now. Any items that seem relevant?

Unarmed Swordsages get the monk's damage progression, actually.


*shrugs* the point isn't to powergame anywho, I'm just try to make a fun character without being pathetic

You uh... didn't pick the right class for that past about level... 5... >.>

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-19, 10:42 PM
I understand your point, but with a monks belt I'd be doing a lot more damage than a swordsage. Thank you for the advice though, its much appreciated ^^

I have the book now, and I'm seeing the works of it all. I'm working on the sheet now. Any items that seem relevant?I find this as humorous as your assertion that a Rogue's Unarmed Attack feals 1d3 damage. The goal is bonuses to damage. Rogue gets SA. Unarmed Swordsage gets Monk damage progression as well as martial maneuvers. Die size isn't important.

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-19, 10:44 PM
hmmm...I don't agree, but I'm listening to your point. What would you suggest then? I'll take away the build itself: I'm trying to play as a sneak, uses light and/or no weapons, have a high intellegence, and be able to pull off acrobatic stunts. I really like the robed wise one sort of look. I'm alright with them, but I don't like ToB personally.

There, gimpy be gone ^o^

PinkysBrain
2009-08-19, 10:45 PM
Playing full monk is a bad idea yes, but small dips are not. :p
If you have a character without evasion it's a decent dip ... otherwise it becomes a poor dip (at least without fractional BAB) compared to just taking the IUS strike feat and wearing a monk's belt.

BTW for the acrobatics you should really get Complete Scoundrel for the skill tricks (of course martial manoeuvres do it even better).

HCL
2009-08-19, 10:49 PM
If you are looking for a monk with lots of added dice take a look at the Races of the Wild halfling monk substitution levels

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-19, 10:59 PM
hmmm...I don't agree, but I'm listening to your point. What would you suggest then? I'll take away the build itself: I'm trying to play as a sneak, uses light and/or no weapons, have a high intellegence, and be able to pull off acrobatic stunts. I really like the robed wise one sort of look. I'm alright with them, but I don't like ToB personally.

There, gimpy be gone ^o^Rogue or Factotum. Factotum is more based on using Int to power everything, and has a bit of a rougher time with damage, but gets a wide variety of additional tricks to utelize.

If you go Rogue, your best bet is to take a 1-2 level Monk dip for Flurry, snag Wep Finesse, take Carmedine Monk to eliminate Wis from the equation, and rely on triggering SA for damage on as many attacks as possible(preferably taking Craven[CoR] at some point).

Grynning
2009-08-19, 11:02 PM
It really seems like Azazel doesn't want to use ToB, which is fine...as much as a lot of us love it (myself included, though I took a while to come around), a lot of people don't and I know of a lot of DM's who don't allow it because they think it's too complex.

I also had a thought - Ascetic Rogue really isn't much of a feat now that I look at it. A feat that is good, though, is Daring Outlaw, for Swashbuckler.

Human Rogue 1/Monk 1/Rogue +2/Swash 3/Rogue x (with uncanny trickster if desired) loses some skill points but wouldn't be bad overall, has Int to damage, a bit more AC (situationally) plus free weapon finesse when you take the swash level. Just needs Int and Dex, and the swash levels make up for the loss in BAB from the monk dip.

Kylarra
2009-08-19, 11:09 PM
Rogue or Factotum. Factotum is more based on using Int to power everything, and has a bit of a rougher time with damage, but gets a wide variety of additional tricks to utelize.

If you go Rogue, your best bet is to take a 1-2 level Monk dip for Flurry, snag Wep Finesse, take Carmedine Monk to eliminate Wis from the equation, and rely on triggering SA for damage on as many attacks as possible(preferably taking Craven[CoR] at some point).Could use the Sleeping tiger monk variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les) to grab weapon finesse instead of stunning fist/improved grapple.

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-19, 11:15 PM
my brain hurts >_< I'm probably going to be going with Rogue/2 lvs Monk with Sleeping tiger varient. Lets say I go Sleeping tiger monk 2/Rogue ? into 10th level, what would you suggest I should take for a prc? Should I?

Asgardian
2009-08-19, 11:43 PM
I neeed help >.< I've been thinking hard over this, but I cannot think of a way to do this.

I'm trying to make a Monk/Dragonmark heir for an eberron campaign that also doubles as a scout/skill monkey. I'll be using the mark of shadows, and would like to know: What do you think would be the best build for this? Lets assume its level 10 (Apparently everyone loves that level >.<). What feats? Items?

Any ideas are fine by me, I just neeeed some helpful advice

If you are open to using stuff from dragon magazine. In issue 331 theres the sidewinder monk. It gets a sneak attack progression, stealthy as a potentional bonus feat and a x/day fangs.

http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf page 59

Change your weapon school to Krabi-Krabong and you get Spear and shortsword as monk weapons and proficiency with heavy and light crosbows