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Laharal
2009-08-19, 08:59 PM
Hi again: In Races of Destiny Humans, half-orcs and half-elve lives and lore are deeply detailled. The same thing stands for Raptorans and Elves in Races of the Wild. Is there a 3.5 book that expands on Orcs' society, religion etc etc as deeply as the other mentionned races? (That excludes the small part in monster manual)

Many thanks.

Gnorman
2009-08-19, 09:10 PM
Hi again: In Races of Destiny Humans, half-orcs and half-elve lives and lore are deeply detailled. The same thing stands for Raptorans and Elves in Races of the Wild. Is there a 3.5 book that expands on Orcs' society, religion etc etc as deeply as the other mentionned races? (That excludes the small part in monster manual)

Many thanks.

Eesh. Don't think so. Really makes you wish there was a goblinoid/orc Races of book, huh?

Races of Faerun has a small section on Orcs, but it's setting-specific. Still might help.

Lorien077
2009-08-19, 09:58 PM
Your best bet is to make some up, or pick up some orc lore that you like that's appropriate to whatever setting you're in. Might I ask which setting?

Laharal
2009-08-19, 10:38 PM
Custom setting of a friend, details undisclosed... wanted to know more about orc background and way of ''organizing'' themselves... thanks for asking though ;)

Ganurath
2009-08-19, 10:46 PM
You can get all the data you need from the following sources:

Elven Origin Myths in Races of the Wild: Strong ties to orc legends, such as the epic battle between Corellon and Gruumsh.

Orc entry in the Monster Manual: Provides basic cultural data.

Eye of Gruumsh PrC in Complete Warrior: Wartime cultural data.

Gruumsh's profile in Complete Divine: Bits of B and C.

Zeta Kai
2009-08-19, 10:47 PM
Considering how commonly orcs are used in the game, a book that focused on them would've been nice to have. I mean, their progeny (half-orcs) are a default PC race, for blank's sake. A book about orcs & goblinoids would've been sweet. The drow got a book all to themselves, & they're just a sub-race (& not a spectacular one, at that). Orcs got the shaft, I'm afraid, & I fear that players did, as well.

RTGoodman
2009-08-19, 10:56 PM
There was a homebrew project about this on the WotC boards a while back. It was called Races of the Horde (originally Races of Savagery), and covered Goblins, Hobgoblins, Bugbears, and Orcs. Unfortunately, I don't know if it ever got far, and the WotC forums are down for a week now anyway.

Gnorman
2009-08-19, 10:58 PM
There was a homebrew project about this on the WotC boards a while back. It was called Races of the Horde (originally Races of Savagery), and covered Goblins, Hobgoblins, Bugbears, and Orcs. Unfortunately, I don't know if it ever got far, and the WotC forums are down for a week now anyway.

If it was done by the same people who did Tome of Fiends and Tome of Necromancy, it's probably better than a WotC sourcebook anyway. But I don't know if it is.

Kosjsjach
2009-08-19, 11:24 PM
If it was done by the same people who did Tome of Fiends and Tome of Necromancy, it's probably better than a WotC sourcebook anyway. But I don't know if it is.

I don't think it is, otherwise it'd be here (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48453). Tis a shame, those are awesome.

bosssmiley
2009-08-20, 06:38 AM
Complete Book of Humanoids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Complete_Book_of_Humanoids) or The Orcs of Thar. The mechanics are convertible, the fluff probably usable as-is.

There's also John Wicks Orcs RPG, which includes many educational stories of the deeds of legendary orc culture hero Bashthraka.
Or there's Paizo's Classic Monsters Revisited, which gives Orcs a weirdly nihilistic culture which is a nice inversion of Blizzard's proud warrior race Orcs.
Scott of OD&D Wilderlands / World of Thool / Ordained Domain of Vogoles turned Orcs into a bizarre culture of dropsical cult warriors ruled by a matriarchy. His take was definitely not PG-13. :smalleek:

kamikasei
2009-08-20, 06:42 AM
Eesh. Don't think so. Really makes you wish there was a goblinoid/orc Races of book, huh?

Wasn't it our very own Mark Hall who was working on such a thing? As I recall, Wizards didn't accept his pitch, so he was going to self-publish, third-party, or put it up online. I don't recall it ever being completed, though.

Gnorman
2009-08-20, 09:20 AM
Wasn't it our very own Mark Hall who was working on such a thing? As I recall, Wizards didn't accept his pitch, so he was going to self-publish, third-party, or put it up online. I don't recall it ever being completed, though.

That would basically be awesome.

I second the suggestion earlier of checking out some older edition sourcebooks, too: TSR was real heavy on the fluff during the 2nd edition years. Wizards is good with crunch and mechanics, but they lack that ineffable hint of fluffy goodness that those older books have.

Granted, some books are better than others. Races of Stone, for example, was awesome. Races of Destiny was fairly nondescript. Don't even get me started on Races of the Wild (I hate elves).

kamikasei
2009-08-20, 09:22 AM
Don't even get me started on Races of the Wild (I hate elves).

You can't hate elves. Everyone loves elves. It says so in all the books.

JellyPooga
2009-08-20, 09:41 AM
Don't even get me started on Races of the Wild (I hate elves).

I liked Races of the Wild...if only for the Halfling material. I really liked the addition of Dallah Thaun to Yondalla.

On the subject of Orcs though, Forgotten Realms has a wealth of material for different Orc cultures, from the Orog society of the Underdark to the Grey Orc mountain tribes.

Eloel
2009-08-20, 10:03 AM
RotW was a good book. Raptoran ftw. Also, Orcs? ORCS? You mean the savage race that has been released for XP to other races. Who needs info on that?

Gnorman
2009-08-20, 11:04 AM
RotW was a good book. Raptoran ftw. Also, Orcs? ORCS? You mean the savage race that has been released for XP to other races. Who needs info on that?

Me?

Look at it this way: orcs despise elves with a burning, seething fury that never stops, never slows, and never gives up.

That alone makes me love orcs so much. So. Much.

Cieyrin
2009-08-20, 11:39 AM
There was a homebrew project about this on the WotC boards a while back. It was called Races of the Horde (originally Races of Savagery), and covered Goblins, Hobgoblins, Bugbears, and Orcs. Unfortunately, I don't know if it ever got far, and the WotC forums are down for a week now anyway.

Y'mean this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4067852&posted=1#post4067852

Bhu has been working where the original author faltered for the last several months, though he may be finally finishing up soon, as he doing PRCs for old goblin deities at the moment. He put a lot of detailed fluff around teh PRCs and feats, so there's plenty to draw on from plenty of sources. Enjoy.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Tehnar
2009-08-20, 11:54 AM
There is also a very nice entry about Orcs in the monster manual IV. Some two pages of pure fluff.

Bayar
2009-08-20, 12:08 PM
You can always rip-off the warcraft orcs...

thegurullamen
2009-08-20, 01:33 PM
You can always rip-off the warcraft orcs...

I sort of agree. I try not to take much of anything from the Warcraft world, but their orcs are just so much better than the insubstantial "me thug go smash now" idiotic brutes we have in D&D. As they stand in most of the games I've played, they're either Always Chaotic Evil or Always Chaotic Stupid which is just unsatisfying from a verisimilitudinous standpoint. I want a smart (or barring that, wise) orc who can do something for the orc world beside leading them on some stupid conquest that will fall apart a week after they die of old age at 35.

Furthermore, D&D orcs are just weaksawse. After level 7 or so, a whole horde of them just don't matter any more. At least Warcraft orcs feel like they could pose a legitimate threat. Shamans, rage warriors, alliances with the vodoun-inclined trolls-it's colorful and powerful stuff. In D&D, their big tactic, their big advantage is numbers, which doesn't really work.

Cieyrin
2009-08-20, 02:28 PM
Furthermore, D&D orcs are just weaksawse. After level 7 or so, a whole horde of them just don't matter any more. At least Warcraft orcs feel like they could pose a legitimate threat. Shamans, rage warriors, alliances with the vodoun-inclined trolls-it's colorful and powerful stuff. In D&D, their big tactic, their big advantage is numbers, which doesn't really work.

This is when you start dealing in variants, like the Orogs and Tanna'ruk. Powerful orc races that are different yet keep to the core flavor of the savage horde.

Also, the only thing holding D&D orcs from being Warcraft Orcs is giving them class levels. Rage warriors? Levels of Barbarian. Shamans? Levels of Cleric, Druid, possibly Spirit Shaman if you want to get more spirit oriented. Warlocks? ...Yeah, those Int and Charisma penalties hurt there but Wizard or Warlock levels will suffice, I suppose.

Your standard orc has a level of warrior. To advance them, you give them some real levels, not throw a horde of them at the party (though certainly a valid tactic for screening and/or giving your casters a little time while the fodder dies). Just like with any early opponent in a game, to make them more effective, give them the tools to do so so that they remain a challenge later on.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Bhu
2009-08-21, 06:19 AM
Y'mean this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4067852&posted=1#post4067852

Bhu has been working where the original author faltered for the last several months, though he may be finally finishing up soon, as he doing PRCs for old goblin deities at the moment. He put a lot of detailed fluff around teh PRCs and feats, so there's plenty to draw on from plenty of sources. Enjoy.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

It wound down at Wizards because I wasn't getting any help with it. We were supposed to do a race book like Races of Stone, but no one ever wrote much after a certain point or responded when I asked for help. I still have ideas for PrC's and such though so I'm continuing to do them, I just switched from Orcs to Goblins to keep people from burning out on it (the original project included Orcs and all Goblinoids). I'll be going back to Orcs eventually.

Gnorman
2009-08-21, 03:35 PM
When in doubt, write it yourself.

Orcs and Arcane Magic

While the vast majority of orcs disdain arcane magic as the purview of their hated enemies, the elves, the more intelligent orcs of the tribes and warbands possess enough foresight to realize that arcane magic is just another tool in the orcish repertoire. They also realize that their enemies won't expect arcane magic from the savage, lowly orc, and the element of surprise is often very valuable.

Orc sorcerers are natural leaders and warmages of tribes. They prefer spells that destroy their enemies outright or dominate them into effective slavery. As such, they are often found with evocation and enchantment spells. They charge into battle with their fellows, command their enemies to turn on their allies, and burn the rest with flames or sear them with caustic acid. They also enjoy conjuration spells that separate enemies or deny them territory, such as cloudkill, caustic mire, or black tentacles (if they can lock down their quarry and damage it at the same time, all the better). Smaller tribes often may not have a soothsayer or an augur, and in this case a sorcerer with divination spells will fill the gap. Necromancy is also a popular choice, as orcs appreciate cursing their enemies and drawing upon fell power.

Orc sorcerers are almost always male. While the occasional female manifests sorcerous talent, they are often shunned as outcasts for this - they are supposed to handle healing and protective magic. Destructive magic is for the men. If the female sorcerer is capable of casting a number of Abjuration and Transmutation spells, she may be more acceptable to the tribe's leaders.

Orc wizards consider themselves a bit more civilized and shy away from flashier spells and those that have the potential for failure. They are aware of the fact that though they are themselves relatively intelligent (for orcs), their competition is possibly smarter and almost certainly better educated. They prefer to use spells that do not require save DCs, such as transmutation spells to buff their fellows or summoning spells (as orcs are often notoriously lazy). Orcs usually have no qualms about consorting with fiendish creatures or the undead, and frequently order them about in an imperious and impatient manner (a practice that has resulted in more than a few orcs being devoured by an angry demon). They, like sorcerers, enjoy spells that divide and weaken their foes, but are much more likely to use non-damaging spells like solid fog, stinking cloud, and grease. Like sorcerers, they too enjoy Necromancy for its power and implication (taking the strength of one's enemy for one's own).

Orcs, whether sorcerous or wizardly in nature, almost never cast illusion or abjuration spells. Those are for the weak (the gnomes), the cowardly (the dwarves), and those who are both (the elves).

Orc spellbooks are crude, made of bone and skin and often written in a crude ink made from dirt, blood, and other substances best left unmentioned. Occasionally one will steal a blank spellbook from a caravan and use that.

Given that arcane might is often not a popular or respected path to power in orcish tribes, the numbers of orc wizards is few. Orc sorcerers may be domineering and arrogant, but orc wizards are quieter and subtler. Orcish women who find themselves oppressed and dismissed in society often pursue wizardry as a way of gaining elevation in the eyes of their tribe. If they are subtle about their studies and are capable and willing of casting protection and buffing spells for the men before battle, most orcish men either won't even notice them or grudgingly accept their capability. Some orcish women pursue wizardly as a path for revenge - if discovered studying wizardry without the express permission of the warchief, they are often burned as witches.

Myrmex
2009-08-21, 04:09 PM
-2 to mental stats isn't that big a deal for casters past level 7, especially when they have +4 str and you're going to be running Clericzilla with them.

Ganurath
2009-08-21, 06:08 PM
While the vast majority of orcs disdain arcane magic as the purview of their hated enemies, the elves, the more intelligent orcs of the tribes and warbands possess enough foresight to realize that arcane magic is just another tool in the orcish repertoire. They also realize that their enemies won't expect arcane magic from the savage, lowly orc, and the element of surprise is often very valuable.

The more intelligent orcs in the tribe average at being the weaker ones in the tribe, and thus the dead ones.

Orc sorcerers are natural leaders and warmages of tribes. They prefer spells that destroy their enemies outright or dominate them into effective slavery. As such, they are often found with evocation and enchantment spells. They charge into battle with their fellows, command their enemies to turn on their allies, and burn the rest with flames or sear them with caustic acid. They also enjoy conjuration spells that separate enemies or deny them territory, such as cloudkill, caustic mire, or black tentacles (if they can lock down their quarry and damage it at the same time, all the better). Smaller tribes often may not have a soothsayer or an augur, and in this case a sorcerer with divination spells will fill the gap. Necromancy is also a popular choice, as orcs appreciate cursing their enemies and drawing upon fell power.

Orc sorcerors would be killed before they gain control of their powers. Even if they got lucky, they'd be strictly blasty and be used as tools by the real powers: The clerics, the chieftains, and the Eyes of Gruumsh.

Orc sorcerers are almost always male. While the occasional female manifests sorcerous talent, they are often shunned as outcasts for this - they are supposed to handle healing and protective magic. Destructive magic is for the men. If the female sorcerer is capable of casting a number of Abjuration and Transmutation spells, she may be more acceptable to the tribe's leaders.

Orc females are only good for breeding in the eyes of orcs. If an orc sorceress ever made her powers known, she would be killed simply to make sure there weren't any females with power.

Orc wizards consider themselves a bit more civilized and shy away from flashier spells and those that have the potential for failure. They are aware of the fact that though they are themselves relatively intelligent (for orcs), their competition is possibly smarter and almost certainly better educated. They prefer to use spells that do not require save DCs, such as transmutation spells to buff their fellows or summoning spells (as orcs are often notoriously lazy). Orcs usually have no qualms about consorting with fiendish creatures or the undead, and frequently order them about in an imperious and impatient manner (a practice that has resulted in more than a few orcs being devoured by an angry demon). They, like sorcerers, enjoy spells that divide and weaken their foes, but are much more likely to use non-damaging spells like solid fog, stinking cloud, and grease. Like sorcerers, they too enjoy Necromancy for its power and implication (taking the strength of one's enemy for one's own).

Orc wizards require orc literacy and orc formal education. Not gonna happen.

Orcs, whether sorcerous or wizardly in nature, almost never cast illusion or abjuration spells. Those are for the weak (the gnomes), the cowardly (the dwarves), and those who are both (the elves).

Abjurations are fine if they augment existing toughness inherent in being an orc.

Orc spellbooks are crude, made of bone and skin and often written in a crude ink made from dirt, blood, and other substances best left unmentioned. Occasionally one will steal a blank spellbook from a caravan and use that. are a myth.

Given that arcane might is often not a popular or respected path to power in orcish tribes, the numbers of orc wizards is few. Orc sorcerers may be domineering and arrogant, but orc wizards are quieter and subtler. Orcish women who find themselves oppressed and dismissed in society often pursue wizardry as a way of gaining elevation in the eyes of their tribe. If they are subtle about their studies and are capable and willing of casting protection and buffing spells for the men before battle, most orcish men either won't even notice them or grudgingly accept their capability. Some orcish women pursue wizardly as a path for revenge - if discovered studying wizardry without the express permission of the warchief, they are often burned as witches.

See the above points. Also, a chief/cleric/Eye would never given a woman permission to do anything but bare children.There are some things that cannot go unsaid.

Gnorman
2009-08-21, 06:16 PM
Eh, you have your orcs and I have mine. I like mine a little less... one-dimensional, I suppose. Ones with potential to break the mold that Gruumsh puts on them. Perhaps not canon, but to my mind more interesting.

Most of this is just contradictory ideas of what it can mean to be an orc, but I do have to dispute one factual error here: Orcish has an alphabet. It's Dwarven, yeah, but it still has a written form. Orcish mooks, if they are warriors, are technically literate.

Dark Herald
2009-08-21, 06:26 PM
There are some things that cannot go unsaid.

So where does this come from?

You just shot down a page of interesting ideas and well thought out fluff, contradicting it as if it wasn't true. So what's your idea of orc culture, and does it have any information backing it up? I thought the problem in this thread was the lack of official information, so enlighten us.

Gnorman
2009-08-21, 06:42 PM
So where does this come from?

You just shot down a page of interesting ideas and well thought out fluff, contradicting it as if it wasn't true. So what's your idea of orc culture, and does it have any information backing it up? I thought the problem in this thread was the lack of official information, so enlighten us.

He's an orc purist. Live and die by the hand and eye of Gruumsh and all that. Violently oppressive meritocratic patriarchy, where only the strong survive and strength is measured only by the notches on your battleaxe. For many orcs, that's the way life is. Greyhawk orcs, for example.

But that's not to say that other ideas of orcs can't exist. Look at Eberron, for example. Or King Obould Many-Arrows. Sure, he was a conquering marauder blessed by Gruumsh, but he was also very, very smart.

deuxhero
2009-08-21, 06:49 PM
You could also drop a bridge on the lazy Tolkien plagiarism and just use Goliath or such for the "big guy" nitch.

Gnorman
2009-08-21, 06:59 PM
You could also drop a bridge on the lazy Tolkien plagiarism and just use Goliath or such for the "big guy" nitch.

They just don't have the same feel to them. Orcs are... well, awesome.

The Rose Dragon
2009-08-21, 07:01 PM
But that's not to say that other ideas of orcs can't exist. Look at Eberron, for example. Or King Obould Many-Arrows. Sure, he was a conquering marauder blessed by Gruumsh, but he was also very, very smart.

Was?

Many-Arrows died? When? Why wasn't I informed of this? I must avenge his death!

deuxhero
2009-08-21, 07:02 PM
Of coarse they don't have the same feel, one is acctually original!

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-21, 07:47 PM
Was?

Many-Arrows died? When? Why wasn't I informed of this? I must avenge his death!

He was an Orc, not an Elf or Dwarf. He's looking at a human-like life-span, and the setting was moved on at least a century? Even ignoring what may or may not have happened to him in any book, he's pretty unlikely to still be kicking about.

Also, re:Orc sexism
Orc women are hot.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v412/Waffleninja/wafflehouseninja_chow_32.jpg
And they aren't going to take that kind of nonsense. ;)
Also, see any of Fredrik KT Anderson's Orc Ladies. Yeah, I don't really see them buying the get-in-the-kitchen-and-make-thog-a-sammich routine, either. ;)

I see Orc's as being kind of...forcefully egalitarian. If you try to subjugate part of Orcish society, it's as likely to break a chair over your head or glass you in the face with a pint of rot-gut as anything else.

Inarius
2009-08-21, 08:00 PM
Was?

Many-Arrows died? When? Why wasn't I informed of this? I must avenge his death!

Yeah in 4e he's dead, but from what seems to be natural causes considering the kingdom he formed is still intact.

Altima
2009-08-21, 10:01 PM
Was?

Many-Arrows died? When? Why wasn't I informed of this? I must avenge his death!

He's now an Exarch to Gruumsh, too.

Though, to be honest, Obauld had PLENTY of help in his rise to power. I mean the divine kind. Of course, he did his best work, in my opinion, by being a regular ole orc. Heck, he managed to siege DWARVES and win--with enough of the keep left intact to transform it into Citadel Many-Arrows. Before the dwarves retook it years later.

And pffft at hating elves. If you hate elves, you almost, by definition, have to loathe humans. After all, everything elves can do, humans do it harder, better, faster, stronger.

Zeta Kai
2009-08-21, 10:22 PM
There are some things that cannot go unsaid.

That misogynistic claptrap is pure FATAListic rubbish. If I heard any of that at a table, I'd run away & call the authorities. Orcs are brutal, savage, & cruel, but they don't have to be women-stopping psycho-rapists, which is all you've depicted them to be capable of. That could be an interesting aberration in their culture, but to make that the whole thing is limiting & repulsive. I've seen orcish matriarchies as often as not, & none of those went so far as whipping phalluses if they got out of line by trying to vote or leaving the hut. If that gender swap seems bizarre or stupid or immature or needless in a game, then the reverse is just as bad, & doubly offensive for dredging up the tragedies that actually happen in real life.

Gnorman
2009-08-22, 01:53 AM
That misogynistic claptrap is pure FATAListic rubbish. If I heard any of that at a table, I'd run away & call the authorities. Orcs are brutal, savage, & cruel, but they don't have to be women-stopping psycho-rapists, which is all you've depicted them to be capable of. That could be an interesting aberration in their culture, but to make that the whole thing is limiting & repulsive. I've seen orcish matriarchies as often as not, & none of those went so far as whipping phalluses if they got out of line by trying to vote or leaving the hut. If that gender swap seems bizarre or stupid or immature or needless in a game, then the reverse is just as bad, & doubly offensive for dredging up the tragedies that actually happen in real life.

This is kind of precisely my point about that particular depiction of orcs. They may have a mostly patriarchal society, but the level of oppression there is too much for my comfort level. There's still a basic gender divide that's supposed to represent an "uncivilized" hunter-gatherer society (i.e. the men hunt and fight and the women heal and nurture) but even in Monster Manuals they say that orc females can gather a lot of power through spellcasting, manipulating things behind the scenes, etc.

I think, also, that orcs who refuse to embrace magic in at least some form would have been wiped out a long time ago by elven forces. A horde of rampaging orcs may be the established norm, but without significant arcane backup, they're going to go extinct mighty quick.

Bhu
2009-08-22, 02:36 AM
That misogynistic claptrap is pure FATAListic rubbish. If I heard any of that at a table, I'd run away & call the authorities. Orcs are brutal, savage, & cruel, but they don't have to be women-stopping psycho-rapists, which is all you've depicted them to be capable of. That could be an interesting aberration in their culture, but to make that the whole thing is limiting & repulsive. I've seen orcish matriarchies as often as not, & none of those went so far as whipping phalluses if they got out of line by trying to vote or leaving the hut. If that gender swap seems bizarre or stupid or immature or needless in a game, then the reverse is just as bad, & doubly offensive for dredging up the tragedies that actually happen in real life.

Dnd portrays the Orcs as religious fanatics that repress their women, and rape other races in a form of ethnic cleansing because they're the default bad guys. They rape and kill because their God tells them to, and he's actually present and able to interfere directly in their lives if they dont. If they didn't commit evil acts on a fairly common basis they wouldn't be the bad guys, and the PC's wouldn't feel so guiltless killing them and taking their stuff. Think of them as a mix between the more repulsive aspects of what happened in Kosovo and Rwanda mixed with hardcore muslim religious fundamentalism (or any religious fundamentalism for that matter). Bad guys are supposed to be repulsive. If they werent repulsive they wouldnt be the bad guys. That doesnt by any means suggest you have to run them that way in your campaign, but without their more evil aspects it just becomes "orcs are evil because they arent as pretty as the other races". Or it suggests that the other races are incredible bigots who dislike the Orcs because they dont understand them. Either way it makes it a little harder for players to just murder a village of them for pay.

Cieyrin
2009-08-22, 09:25 AM
Dnd portrays the Orcs as religious fanatics that repress their women, and rape other races in a form of ethnic cleansing because they're the default bad guys. They rape and kill because their God tells them to, and he's actually present and able to interfere directly in their lives if they dont. If they didn't commit evil acts on a fairly common basis they wouldn't be the bad guys, and the PC's wouldn't feel so guiltless killing them and taking their stuff. Think of them as a mix between the more repulsive aspects of what happened in Kosovo and Rwanda mixed with hardcore muslim religious fundamentalism (or any religious fundamentalism for that matter). Bad guys are supposed to be repulsive. If they werent repulsive they wouldnt be the bad guys. That doesnt by any means suggest you have to run them that way in your campaign, but without their more evil aspects it just becomes "orcs are evil because they arent as pretty as the other races". Or it suggests that the other races are incredible bigots who dislike the Orcs because they dont understand them. Either way it makes it a little harder for players to just murder a village of them for pay.

Probably why the Warcraft orcs were explained away as demon-possessed during the first 2 games and when they came back in the adventure game talking about Thrall's rise to chieftain and then Warcraft III, they've reembraced their shamanic culture and thus become more nature-oriented with a dash of savage honor. Not a bad depiction that keeps with how orcs are a warrior race w/o being irredeemably evil at the same time.

Morty
2009-08-22, 10:20 AM
Dnd portrays the Orcs as religious fanatics that repress their women, and rape other races in a form of ethnic cleansing because they're the default bad guys. They rape and kill because their God tells them to, and he's actually present and able to interfere directly in their lives if they dont. If they didn't commit evil acts on a fairly common basis they wouldn't be the bad guys, and the PC's wouldn't feel so guiltless killing them and taking their stuff. Think of them as a mix between the more repulsive aspects of what happened in Kosovo and Rwanda mixed with hardcore muslim religious fundamentalism (or any religious fundamentalism for that matter). Bad guys are supposed to be repulsive. If they werent repulsive they wouldnt be the bad guys. That doesnt by any means suggest you have to run them that way in your campaign, but without their more evil aspects it just becomes "orcs are evil because they arent as pretty as the other races". Or it suggests that the other races are incredible bigots who dislike the Orcs because they dont understand them. Either way it makes it a little harder for players to just murder a village of them for pay.

Of course that the characterization of orcs in D&D pretty much boils down to "they're evil and horrible, therefore they're the bad guys, therefore PCs can kill them without a second thought". But the problem with this setup is that it's incredibly stupid - the orcish race as presented in D&D would go extinct before even inventing fire, for example - and it causes people to want to change it.

Weirdlet
2009-08-22, 10:33 AM
Of course that the characterization of orcs in D&D pretty much boils down to "they're evil and horrible, therefore they're the bad guys, therefore PCs can kill them without a second thought". But the problem with this setup is that it's incredibly stupid - the orcish race as presented in D&D would go extinct before even inventing fire, for example - and it causes people to want to change it.

Exactly. Drives me absolutely nuts- I like to think you can have the rough-and-tumble boys of the setting without having them be absolute irredeemable trash that can't tie their own shoe-laces.

Cieyrin
2009-08-22, 11:55 AM
Exactly. Drives me absolutely nuts- I like to think you can have the rough-and-tumble boys of the setting without having them be absolute irredeemable trash that can't tie their own shoe-laces.

What probably saves orcs and goblins from extinction is their sheer birth rates and that generally the kinda power you would need to to totally destroy them is generally more expensive than it's worth. Sure, there may be an adventuring party going through an area but adventurers, essentially glorified mercenaries, come at prices that many villages can't afford and let's face it, outside of paladins and some clerics of good deities, adventurers won't be doing such things out of hand at no cost to the villagers.

Orcs may not be much for smarts but they're also not suicidal and know enough when there is no profit to be gained from raiding if they have insufficient forces to overcome the local forces to retreat to their mountains to lick their wounds and breed the next orc horde to invade the lands below.

Bhu
2009-08-23, 04:17 AM
Of course that the characterization of orcs in D&D pretty much boils down to "they're evil and horrible, therefore they're the bad guys, therefore PCs can kill them without a second thought". But the problem with this setup is that it's incredibly stupid - the orcish race as presented in D&D would go extinct before even inventing fire, for example - and it causes people to want to change it.

In DnD the Gods interfere in the lives of mortals. Men (or Orcs) don't have to invent anything, and actually trying to may insult one of the Gods (or at least be seen as potentially doing so). They have no reason to be inventors because the Gods provide as long as the masses do whats expected of them, and punish them if they don't. Look at Africa and the Middle East and the Balkans. They've had stupid pointless wars for generations in some cases, and some of them have a populace that grew up never knowing what peace was. They aren't dead. I wouldn't call some of them living either, but that's beside the point. No population is entirely suicidal, and even one as fanatic as the Orcs will retreat in teh face of potential overwhelming casualties. If they all die in battle, they cant live to carry on Gruumsh's will. And he doesn't want them all to die because that depletes his worshipers, and therefore his power base. So you just end up with sustained low level warfare with brief violent outbursts for year after year after year.

hamishspence
2009-08-23, 05:32 AM
Even WoTC doesn't take orcs quite that far in 3.5- there is room for orc spellcasters, female orc soldiers, etc.

Races of Faerun page 64:

Female orcs have little to look forward to. Rarely, a particularly tough orc woman can muscle her way into the orc armies and serve alongside her brothers as an equal, but for the most part, female orcs are relegated to the roles of servant and mother. Female orcs are physically as strong and capable as male orcs, but orc society is narrow-minded and brutal. The one real area in which a female orc can hope to excel is magic, particularly divine magic. Female orc clerics, adepts, and druids use their magical skills to strike fear and trepidation into the males of their community, and are, for the most part, left alone to do what they want.

Monster Manual IV page 119:

Females among the orcs are commonly subservient, and nothing about orc mating is romantic or monogamous, with the mightiest warriors taking as many mates as they can support. But every orc subconsciously knows that those who provide for the tribal home and give birth to the next generation are the tribe's backbone. Further, while many female orcs do little more than bear children and gather food, strong orcs are barred only from becoming clerics of Gruumsh. Many powerful male orcs are fiercely loyal to their mothers, giving such females sway in the tribe despite the appearence of subservience. Magical power also grants influence, and a sufficiently strong female orc can carve out a place if she can defeat the males who would subjugate her.

Few professions have specific gender associations in orc culture. Male orcs happen to favor warrior roles, and gifted females favor spellcasting.This latter instances foments a belief among orcs that noncombat magic is a feminine craft; males who practice magic had better be useful in battle to avoid the appearence of weakness.

Also, while gray orcs and orogs are slightly different from standard orcs (gray orcs are wiser, orogs are more charismatic) mountain orcs are, stat-wise, the same, and style-wise, almost identical to standard MM orcs.

On magic: Races of Faerun:

Arcane spellcasters, while not unknown among gray orcs, are quite rare. In a society dominated by brutality and strength, there isn't much room for academic study. Those orcs who do become arcane spellcasters are invariably loners or outcasts.

The mountain orcs are more interested in physical combat than magic. Nevertheless, they understand and appreciate the tactical value of having magical support in a war. Their spellcasters focus on magic that can be directly applied to combats, especially spells like haste, keen edge, bless, prayer, and others that support the fighting troops.

The most common spellcaster in orog society, though, is the bard. Orog bards are often important members of a tactical strike, using drums and chanting to whip the soldiers into a frenzy, then curing them of their wounds after a battle. Orog sorcerers are rare, but the natural leadership and force of personality possessed by orogs make them ideal sorcerers. Those few who develop sorcerous powers are mighty indeed.

MM IV: orc bards:

War howlers are rare among orcs, but their talent for inspiring blood thirst in the tribe's warriors makes them highly valuable. Few of them survive to become practiced warriors- their obvious leadership skills make them prime rivals for the chieftain's supremacy. Only the greatest orc warlords, those whose rule and talent are beyond reproach, have the confidence to field many war howlers.

So, arcane spellcasters in the form of bards do exist in "standard orc" (as represented by the Monster Manuals) society.

Remember also that all orc members of player classes (such as bard, fighter, cleric etc) aside from barbarian, are literate. However, as a general rule, (in Races of Faerun) orc commoners, adepts, and warriors aren't. So every cleric of Gruumsh, bard, etc. can write.

the rule was (for mountain and gray orcs) they are illiterate unless they have levels in a PC class other than barbarian.

Whereas for orogs, it was "all are literate except commoners, warriors, and barbarians".

in FRCS, it clarifies that the archaic orc language (Hulgorkyn) uses the Dethek alphabet- (dwarven script) So there was written Orcish at one point.

Bhu
2009-08-23, 06:33 AM
Which is a bit of a retcon from MM1:

"Orcs believe that to survive they must conquer as much territory as possible, which puts them at odds with all intelligent creatures that live near them. They are constantly warring with or preparing for war with other humanoids, including other Orc tribes. They can ally wiht other humanoids for a time but quickly rebel if not commanded by Orcs. Their deities teach them that all other beings are inferior and that all worldly goods rightfully belong tot the Orcs, having been stolen by the others. Orc spellcasters are ambitious, and rivalries between them and warrior leaders sometimes tear a tribe apart.

Orc society is patriarchal: Females are prized possessions at best, and chattel at worst. Male Orcs pride themselves on the number of females they own and male children they sire, as well as their battle prowess, wealth, and amount of territory."

They get tons of complaints about the portrayal of Orcs as being racist so I can see why they'd change things in later books or the Faerun setting.

Most definitions of 'chattel' don't make the lives of Orc women sound so good:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:chattel&ei=qyqRSvybC5KDlgfU8_jQDw&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

Morty
2009-08-23, 07:06 AM
In DnD the Gods interfere in the lives of mortals. Men (or Orcs) don't have to invent anything, and actually trying to may insult one of the Gods (or at least be seen as potentially doing so). They have no reason to be inventors because the Gods provide as long as the masses do whats expected of them, and punish them if they don't. Look at Africa and the Middle East and the Balkans. They've had stupid pointless wars for generations in some cases, and some of them have a populace that grew up never knowing what peace was. They aren't dead. I wouldn't call some of them living either, but that's beside the point. No population is entirely suicidal, and even one as fanatic as the Orcs will retreat in teh face of potential overwhelming casualties. If they all die in battle, they cant live to carry on Gruumsh's will. And he doesn't want them all to die because that depletes his worshipers, and therefore his power base. So you just end up with sustained low level warfare with brief violent outbursts for year after year after year.

The point about Balkans and Africa might be a valid one, though I feel it's a bit too political to really argue. But explaining the absurdity of orc society by "Gruumsh fixed it" only proves that it makes no sense and its only purpose is to provide cheap mooks for PCs to slaughter.

Gnorman
2009-08-23, 07:53 AM
Tons of useful quotations

Thanks for bringing in the text to support that side of the argument. While I'd hesitate to say that the extreme savagery depiction of orcs is wrong, it does cross the palatable line a bit too much for my tastes. It's nice to have to the contradictory source material brought up in support of orcs having, you know, a culture.

As I said, orcs can be molded to fit what the campaign needs. If you're looking for hordes of mooks and can't find an in-game justification for killing them other than "They're racist, brutish, stupid, misogynistic, and irrevocably, irredeemably evil," then you've got it. If you're looking for orcs with a bit more sophistication, then you can lean towards the whole Warcraft-esque shamanistic side of things.

One of my homebrew worlds had orcs as desert nomads, for example.

hamishspence
2009-08-23, 08:34 AM
MM IV still stresses that orcs are expansionist, and patriarchal, and orc women are subservient, but it enlarged on that, stressing that the "slaves it worst" thing is worst case scenario, and in most cases orc women can be soldiers, or spellcasters, and aren't "killed for possessing magic" the way some people say would happen.

Keen edge is a wizards-sorcerers only spell. Clerics and adepts can't cast it. For it to be in common use, and a preferred method of making orc warriors more dangerous, requires that at least some wizards and sorcerers exist in orc society, even if they are described as loners.

thegurullamen
2009-08-23, 10:30 AM
The point about Balkans and Africa might be a valid one, though I feel it's a bit too political to really argue. But explaining the absurdity of orc society by "Gruumsh fixed it" only proves that it makes no sense and its only purpose is to provide cheap mooks for PCs to slaughter.

Either that or Gruumsh is a real jerk. If he's half as competent at deifying as he is at slaughter then he should realize his heavy-handed approach to guiding orcish culture is the same as beating his race's collective head against the proverbial brick wall.

As an aside, this doesn't make much sense to begin with: Gruumsh doesn't seem like the hand holding type in the first place. Even if he's so invested in orcs that he needs them (as some interpretations of deific might suggest) he could just let them all die out (the lousy deadweights they are) and start up a new race to worship him. They're bound to be better than the durhurhurs he currently hangs out with.

Finally, does it strike anyone else as odd that the god of slaughter and strength is essentially protecting the weak from their own weakness?

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-23, 11:03 AM
So, the females of Orc society are likely to be Wizards, Sorcerers and so on, and statistically and so on no worse off than their male counterparts.

Wizards. And Sorcerers.

Yeah. That's a demographic that a bunch of warriors lead by the occaisional mighty fighter is going to be successfully pushing around. >_>

Bhu
2009-08-23, 07:59 PM
So, the females of Orc society are likely to be Wizards, Sorcerers and so on, and statistically and so on no worse off than their male counterparts.

Wizards. And Sorcerers.

Yeah. That's a demographic that a bunch of warriors lead by the occaisional mighty fighter is going to be successfully pushing around. >_>

Especially once she gets to 5th level and says something to the effect of "Hey Tusk...____ you I'm in charge now. Deal with it or be Fireballed"

Bhu
2009-08-23, 08:01 PM
Either that or Gruumsh is a real jerk. If he's half as competent at deifying as he is at slaughter then he should realize his heavy-handed approach to guiding orcish culture is the same as beating his race's collective head against the proverbial brick wall.

As an aside, this doesn't make much sense to begin with: Gruumsh doesn't seem like the hand holding type in the first place. Even if he's so invested in orcs that he needs them (as some interpretations of deific might suggest) he could just let them all die out (the lousy deadweights they are) and start up a new race to worship him. They're bound to be better than the durhurhurs he currently hangs out with.



Assuming he has the power to create a new race.

What if he's lying about being the Orcs progenitor? :belkar:

WHat if goading them into constant warfare is a way to distract from what he's really up to? :xykon:

Bhu
2009-08-23, 08:03 PM
Thanks for bringing in the text to support that side of the argument. While I'd hesitate to say that the extreme savagery depiction of orcs is wrong, it does cross the palatable line a bit too much for my tastes. It's nice to have to the contradictory source material brought up in support of orcs having, you know, a culture.

As I said, orcs can be molded to fit what the campaign needs. If you're looking for hordes of mooks and can't find an in-game justification for killing them other than "They're racist, brutish, stupid, misogynistic, and irrevocably, irredeemably evil," then you've got it. If you're looking for orcs with a bit more sophistication, then you can lean towards the whole Warcraft-esque shamanistic side of things.


Being stupid brutish misogynistic racists doesn't mean you don't have a culture. Our ancestors were stupid brutish misogynistic racists and they had a culture. But they also evolved past that (well sort of), probably because their god never appeared in physical form and said "Do this or there's bad times comin'."

Bhu
2009-08-23, 08:11 PM
The point about Balkans and Africa might be a valid one, though I feel it's a bit too political to really argue. But explaining the absurdity of orc society by "Gruumsh fixed it" only proves that it makes no sense and its only purpose is to provide cheap mooks for PCs to slaughter.

In their own words thats pretty much what the game designers had in mind. Even in 4e it's been said whats the point in ecologies or personality when the only interaction PC's should have with monsters is to kill them for xp and treasure.

I personally prefer games to be not so much hack and slash. But I also find that simply denying that racism/misogynism could exist in the DnD world to kind of weaken it a little and make it more difficult to suspend disbelief. Humans can't get along, and the differences in our physical appearance are fairly minor, limited mostly to skin color and some facial features or height, etc. Throw in races that look monstrous to us and things get ugly pretty quick. Hell, I can't even imagine people being really accepting of elves simply because they'd be incredibly jealous. All elves are described as thin and attractive, and they're never drawn as less than very attractive (Mialee being an exception. Seriously Wizards wtf?) so imagine a world where they get repressed in human society for simply looking better than everyone else because our culture puts such an emphasis on physical appearance?

And thats just the physical. Once you get into social and cultural details most races should be fairly alien to us in at least some way.

Gnorman
2009-08-24, 01:17 AM
In their own words thats pretty much what the game designers had in mind. Even in 4e it's been said whats the point in ecologies or personality when the only interaction PC's should have with monsters is to kill them for xp and treasure.

I personally prefer games to be not so much hack and slash. But I also find that simply denying that racism/misogynism could exist in the DnD world to kind of weaken it a little and make it more difficult to suspend disbelief. Humans can't get along, and the differences in our physical appearance are fairly minor, limited mostly to skin color and some facial features or height, etc. Throw in races that look monstrous to us and things get ugly pretty quick. Hell, I can't even imagine people being really accepting of elves simply because they'd be incredibly jealous. All elves are described as thin and attractive, and they're never drawn as less than very attractive (Mialee being an exception. Seriously Wizards wtf?) so imagine a world where they get repressed in human society for simply looking better than everyone else because our culture puts such an emphasis on physical appearance?

And thats just the physical. Once you get into social and cultural details most races should be fairly alien to us in at least some way.

This is all true on a basic level, but. I am a player who likes a little realism, at least ecologically and socially. I'm not saying that orcs aren't racist or misogynistic, or that they shouldn't be, because they are. I just don't think that the degree of racism and misogyny that they display in some sources would keep them alive. A high birth rate can only handwave away so much.

And 4e's design philosophy on that point is just... well, shortsighted and alienating to certain subsets of players. Reducing the game to thoughtless hack and slash fests doesn't appeal to me, and it certainly doesn't appeal to a lot of other gamers. But that's a whole other can of worms I don't mean to open here, so I'll leave it at that.

hamishspence
2009-08-24, 11:43 AM
Ironically, at the same time they were making Orcs and Gnolls Always Chaotic Evil in 4th ed (though in Faerun they have diplomatic relations with the surrounding kingdoms thanks to Obould, and there is room for nonevil orcs) they were also removing the tag from dragons.

Draconomicon goes into some depth on how chromatic dragons aren't always evil, and how they can be interacting relatively peacefully with their surroundings. So 4th ed isn't all "Monsters are for hacking and slashing"

Morty
2009-08-24, 12:27 PM
Ironically, at the same time they were making Orcs and Gnolls Always Chaotic Evil in 4th ed (though in Faerun they have diplomatic relations with the surrounding kingdoms thanks to Obould, and there is room for nonevil orcs) they were also removing the tag from dragons.

Draconomicon goes into some depth on how chromatic dragons aren't always evil, and how they can be interacting relatively peacefully with their surroundings. So 4th ed isn't all "Monsters are for hacking and slashing"

Because according to WoTC, dragons = kewl. Orcs and Gnolls =/= kewl but cannon fodder. Simple.