another paladin fix idea - casting

[elliott20]

Frequently, when we see people do paladin homebrews on this board, one of the more common themes that pops up is for people to either give the paladin more feature options (i.e. Fax's most excellent paladin homebrew) or give the paladin martial adept stuff (which is basically a watered down version of the statement "play a crusader").

that's all fine and good, but I can't help but feel there are probably more straight forward ways of doing this. When I started thinking about it, I realized that paladins have one particular ability that we often overlook in lieu of talking about things like smiting... they have spell casting.

but to my understanding, paladin spell casting is Terrible with a capital T. They get half-caster levels, they get a very limited amount of spell selection, and buffs usually are not that great anyway... at least, that's from how I see it.

My question to you is, do you think a paladin with a reworked spell casting model might be a worthwhile cause or do you think that paladins really should focus more on ACFs?

for myself, I felt that a paladin really should play more like how a tank cleric is played. That is, a lot of self-buffs that makes a cleric the combat machine that fighters can only hope to be, should be stuff that paladins get too. And to make that even better, I considered the possibility for a paladin to select a number of buffs a paladin can conjure up as a swift action, thereby by-passing the buff rounds a little to make them more of a combat caster.

so a paladin might get the following revisions

new ability - quick buffing (could use a better name, of course): a paladin can select X number of spells from his spell lists and place them in his quick buff spell list. (X being tied to the paladin levels) When in combat, the paladin can cast these spells with a swift action instead of it's standard casting time. The problem with this ability is that we would have to be able to define what are "buff" spells. I considered anything that has range personal to be a good candidate but that might too limiting... I'm not sure about that. This would be an ability that the paladin gets at later levels

Full caster levels & revise spell list: Give the paladin full caster levels but give the paladin a revamped spell list that is far more specialized in self buffing and with a couple spells in healing. The idea is so that when a paladin chooses to self-buff, he can do so with good amount of power but he does not get spells that basically allows him to be a better cleric. (so he will still only get only a couple of the healing line, not too many of the other utility spells, etc)

what do you guys think?

[Godskook]

1.Look at Abjurant Champion. That class has something similar, on the quick buff side. You could probably borrow heavily from that class feature.

2.I think one of the reasons that the other paladin fixes all focus on non-casting aspects of the class is that paladin really doesn't feel like a caster. The fluff isn't 'divine caster in combat', its 'warrior with divine support abilities'.

3.Depending one what you mean by 'full caster levels'.
3a.If you mean simply to give them a higher CL, but with no progression adjustment, meh, I don't think that'd really affect much.

4.What buffs, specifically, is the paladin missing in your opinion?

5.Sounds almost like you want to turn the paladin into a Gish. That's not what a paladin is to me.

[elliott20]

well, in essence, I wasn't thinking of turning a paladin into a gish, but rather meet the same ends of making a paladin a better divine warrior by allowing them the ability to do so via divine magic.

in essence, it's just an increase CL, with a more specialized spell list.

it's not perfect, but it, to me, is a quick fix idea.

[T.G. Oskar]

If you can read the Rebalanced Paladin from the Gleemax forums, that's almost what you might be seeking. While the CL is a bit off (character level - 4, like the Turn Undead), it has a quite revamped spell list, and makes some of the Paladin spells a bit more useful. Perhaps it won't be surprising to you, but having Heal, Heroes' Feast, Raise Dead, Righteous Might and Flame Strike at 4th level, Divine Power, Freedom of Movement and Spell Immunity at 3rd level, and most of the Paladin spells reduced a level from their original level might be the

Also, Paladin spellcasting isn't terrible if you know how to use it, but it definitely can use some splatbook love. For example: Mark of Doom, from Player's Handbook II, can be used by both Clerics and Paladins, but it definitely suits the Paladin better. 1d6 may seem a bit weak, but consider it's 1d6 per action they do: attack, casting, attack of opportunity...anything that can be considered "hostile", and the definition is quite big. It can be lethal for Hydras, perhaps a minor hindrance for Wizards that like to use loads of Quickened spells, and generally the terror of OA builds. It's a level 2 spell, which means that a Cleric will have it before a Paladin does, but consider that at the moment you get it, the Cleric will probably waste an action or two buffing itself, which means you have the chance of actually pulling it off. Others that come to mind are Sacred Haven, Holy Storm and Axiomatic Storm, Holy Sword and Lawful Sword. A particularly fitting way to remove your character is Righteous Aura, since it essentially allows your allies to fight the good fight one last time (pun intended), and the remains can't be revived unless True Resurrection is cast (or Wish/Miracle), and the damage dealt to evil outsiders isn't something to chafe at (plus it's a sacred bonus to Charisma, and Paladins love Charisma)

The problem with Paladin spellcasting is that the developers limited the spells to mostly self-buffs, mount enhancers and one or two worthwhile spells at a level where they start losing their utility. Also, the nature of spellcasting: it takes a standard action to cast a spell, which implies either you waste a spell casting it defensively (and Paladins aren't keen on getting high Concentration), or cast it outside the area of enemies (and thus endangering the squishy allies), or even waste a turn they might use charging with their mount or something. Battle Blessing is more of a patched class ability than a feat, if you look at it. If you're going to fix Paladin spellcasting, it has to be a fix where you truly respect their casting ability, instead of merely patching. Allowing them Cleric spellcasting but up to 5th level, including orisons, becomes the best fix you can give them, actually (no Heal or nifty spells, but it gives them a massive spell list and some great options, something where that CL 20 really shines, and makes a Fighter 10/Cleric 10 cry wolf)

[elliott20]

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking of, just give them a different spell list, maybe add a feature or two that allows them some battle casting type love, and run with it.

I was actually pretty sure somebody might have already beat me to the punch on it. Looks like I'll have to look for that base class.

I'll also need to buff up on my spell list too. I only have the corebooks and maybe 2 other supplements at the moment. maybe now I can buy them off of ebay on the cheap.