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rezplz
2009-08-20, 02:36 AM
Three person party:
1 level 12 wizard
1 bard
1 druid.


How the situation looks:

The bard approaches the dragon, looking completely harmless - no weapons, no armor, nothing except the clothes on his back. He starts talking to this dragon - cracking jokes, maybe playing a quick song on his lute. You know, just having a jolly old good time. But then, suddenly, the dragon is crushed by an unseen force. Its bones crack as it crumbles, and its head caves in, sending over-sized dragon brain everywhere.

An elephant shimmers into view and limps, painfully, away.



How it works:

The 3-person party finds a standard elephant. The druid uses animal empathy to calm and soothe the beast, and then goes off and kills herself since her job is done. The bard casts silence on it, and hurries off. The wizard then casts invisibility on himself and the elephant.

The bard finds the dragon in a place with no ceiling, or at least a very very high ceiling. Using a combination of bluff, diplomacy, and perform, the bard distracts the dragon - not much should be needed. Just enough to get it to stay in one spot for a few rounds.

It's the wizard's turn to act. With his hand on the elephant, he casts teleport, into the air, directly above the dragon. An elephant weighs, on average, 10,000 pounds. at 200 pounds, a falling object does 1d6 damage per 10 feet. For every 200 pounds more than 200, the object (elephant) will deal 1d6 more damage. 10,000 divided by 200 is 50. So for every 10 feet the elephant falls, it will deal 50d6 to whatever it lands on. RAW, there is no maximum damage for this tactic. A great worm gold dragon has, on average, 717 health. So we teleport the silenced, invisible elephant, let's see, 50 feet above the dragon. That's going to be 250d6, or an average of 875 damage. If you wanted to make sure it was dead, you could drop it even farther - 100 feet - for a total of 1750 damage. Since the elephant is both silenced and invisible, there's no way that the dragon would see it coming in the one round that it takes to fall.

Wizard casts feather fall on the way down, and is safe from any harm. The elephant, since it only fell 50-100 feet, will take somewhere between 5 and 10 d6 damage - wounded, but still able to walk away.




It's possible to do this at level 9, but the wizard would only be able to take one large and one medium animal, and he'd have to teleport higher into the air, and the animals might not live. :(




edit: Seems I read the falling objects damage wrong. The extra weight just adds 50d6 to the damage, but not for every ten feet. Still doable, but you'll just have to teleport the elephant 2000 feet into the air, and you'll still do the required 250 d6 damage. So the bard is more important now, since it'll take about five rounds for the elephant to fall that far.

Salt_Crow
2009-08-20, 02:44 AM
How accurate would this elephant-bombing be? Wouldn't you still require a successful attack roll to accurately hit the dragon? I can't imagine a great wyrm gold dragon not noticing such a simple distraction either.

But then again, a mechanically sound plan I guess, unless you have Shivering Touch which is a good way to handle many unprepared dragons.

lord_khaine
2009-08-20, 02:46 AM
Wont work for several reasons, to start with the gold dragons sense motive will be high enough to notice that the bard is up to something.

Also, do you have any idea about how hard it is to aim a elephant?

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-20, 02:49 AM
You could always prepare some gusts of wind or something to adjust your trajectory as you fall. After all, you have 5 turns to fall 2000ft.

rezplz
2009-08-20, 02:51 AM
Lord Khaine: Even if the dragon suspects something, chances are it may still stand still for the five rounds it needs. Even if it looks straight up it won't see or hear a silenced, invisible elephant.

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-20, 02:52 AM
Not to mention that the dragon can make a Reflex save for half damage.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-20, 02:52 AM
Several problems:

1) You can only make objects/creatures appear on surfaces that can support them. So no teleporting the elephant on the air.

2) A dragon has blindsight; he can sense invisible creatures.

3) A dragon has a huge spot check; he can easily pinpoint the invisible elephant despite it being invisible.

4) The elephant is really large; a wizard may have trouble teleporting it as creatures larger than medium count as multiple creatures for teleportation.

5) Creatures and objects fall 150 feet on round 1 and 300 feet on following rounds. This means that the dragon easily notices and escapes the falling elephant anyway.

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-20, 02:53 AM
Even if this were to work, two weeks later the PC's will inevitably be crushed by invisible, silenced falling elephants themselves. Part of the DM's Kobold Druid/Bard/Wizard servants' revenge.

Antacid
2009-08-20, 02:56 AM
I hear 4th Edition D&D is a very well-designed gaming system.

rezplz
2009-08-20, 02:58 AM
TheCountAlucard: I'm not sure if you can reflex save for falling objects, especially if you're not aware of them.


Belial_the_Leveler:
1) Really? I thought that was just for summoning. Either way I think it's silly.

2) Blindsight of what, 60ft? By the time the dragon can blindsense it it wouldn't be able to register what's going on.

3) Hm, I guess that might be a problem. I forgot that epic-spot can see invisible things. I guess that's why the bard's super-important. He'll probably get eaten, though. Meh, sucks for the bard.

4) Elephant is a huge creature, which counts as 2 large creatures, which count as 4 medium creatures. So the wizard has to be level 12 - its size is the only reason why I didn't have the wizard at level 9, minimum level to cast teleport.

5) Well I'd assume that during rounds 3 and 4 it would continue to pick up its speed at the same pace as in the first two rounds. Couldn't find rules for that anywhere though.


edit:

Sharikov: Yes, well I wasn't thinking about the long-term possibilities of this plan. ;P And after using such a tactic, the PCs would be very paranoid and do whatever possible to avoid such a fate themselves. Such as permanent see invisibility, foresight, etc.

Salt_Crow
2009-08-20, 03:23 AM
1) Really? I thought that was just for summoning. Either way I think it's silly.

Sayz someone who came up with an idea to crush a dragon with a falling elephant.

I think it's a great comic relief if the DM and the players are willing to cooperate. Of course, there'd hardly be any XP seeing how it was all for laughs.

rezplz
2009-08-20, 03:30 AM
Sayz someone who came up with an idea to crush a dragon with a falling elephant.

I think it's a great comic relief if the DM and the players are willing to cooperate. Of course, there'd hardly be any XP seeing how it was all for laughs.

Hahah. This is true. And yeah, going by logic they didn't actually do a whole lot to kill it, so they wouldn't get much experience out of it, and it would be just for laughs. ;P But I do believe that it says in the DMG that if a group handles an encounter through being really smart and making it easy they shouldn't have an EXP penalty. ;P

Although, it DOES say that if the party is handling an encounter way above their level then something may be wrong. Meh. ;P

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-20, 03:31 AM
Shouldn't the Druid have fallen for taking part in this considering how it involved hurting, and possibly traumatizing, the elephant? (I'm guessing you didn't mean the Druid literraly killed herself after charming the elephant.)

cupkeyk
2009-08-20, 03:32 AM
Why is the bard and the druid even there?

the wizard should have just used ray of clumsiness and killed the dragon himself.

rezplz
2009-08-20, 03:33 AM
No idea what ray of clumsiness is, but it probably allows for spell resistance. Good luck topping a great wyrm gold dragon's spell resistance. ;P


And it's funnier to drop an elephant onto it.

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-20, 03:34 AM
This brings up a new question, does the teleport spell transfer momentum? IE, if you teleport while falling, are you still falling at the same speed wherever you arrive?

If so, that takes care of all of this "aiming" business, although makes the chance that the wizard survives much less, as it would leave him with a single movement action to escape a splattery doom.

cupkeyk
2009-08-20, 03:40 AM
you're right. i was thinking of the wrong spell. i meant shivering touch. i don't remember the SR for shivering touch though. i haven't played 3.5 in years. Still the wizard can cast assay spell resistance before shivering touch.

Myou
2009-08-20, 03:42 AM
Assay Resistance.

Maximised Shivering Touch.

Takes one round.

cupkeyk
2009-08-20, 03:48 AM
Assay Resistance.

Maximised Shivering Touch.

Takes one round.


ninja'd lolz. dragons really are a horrible example for something to prove that its a great way to kill something of whatever level, because they're so weak.

ericgrau
2009-08-20, 03:48 AM
Why not drop a young dragon on the wyrm and kill it that way? I think this is one of those things where the DM just says no b/c it makes no sense. The falling object rules are probably better applied with hard objects falling on medium-ish sized creatures. And even then only to a point.

rezplz
2009-08-20, 03:51 AM
EnnPeeCee: Feather fall can be cast as an immediate action, I believe. On someone else's turn, if I remember right ;D


Shivering touch? What's that do? Lower dex, or what?

And if you're only sticking to core, like I pretty much always do, since I hear so much about non-core stuff being weird/overpowered, then I don't see any easier way to kill a dragon. With non-core stuff, I don't see any FUNNIER way to kill a dragon.

ericgrau: The young dragon would fly away :(!

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-20, 03:51 AM
Assay Resistance.

Maximised Shivering Touch.

Takes one round.

With Assay and spell penetration a level 12, you have +24 vs a 33 SR.
That's still only around a 50% chance of success, which while possible, isn't exactly very reliable (not that this method is).

Plus, that wouldn't be very fun or dramatic. An elephant dumb-bomb is IMO. =)



Also, for added pyrotechnics, since the elephant will be falling for 5 rounds anyway, attach a delayed blast fireball to it. THEN it would be a dumb-bomb.

lord_khaine
2009-08-20, 03:54 AM
Lord Khaine: Even if the dragon suspects something, chances are it may still stand still for the five rounds it needs. Even if it looks straight up it won't see or hear a silenced, invisible elephant.

Dragons are also very smart, chances are very bad that it will stand still in what appears to be a trap.

That aside, you are using rules for falling objects on a falling creature, im not even sure you can do that by raw.

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-20, 03:58 AM
Dragons are also very smart, chances are very bad that it will stand still in what appears to be a trap.

That aside, you are using rules for falling objects on a falling creature, im not even sure you can do that by raw.

What if you murdered the elephant mid-flight? It'd be a falling corpse then. =D

ericgrau
2009-08-20, 04:03 AM
EnnPeeCee: Feather fall can be cast as an immediate action, I believe. On someone else's turn, if I remember right ;D


Shivering touch? What's that do? Lower dex, or what?

And if you're only sticking to core, like I pretty much always do, since I hear so much about non-core stuff being weird/overpowered, then I don't see any easier way to kill a dragon. With non-core stuff, I don't see any FUNNIER way to kill a dragon.

ericgrau: The young dragon would fly away :(!

Shivering touch does dex damage. You can drop a great wyrm's dex to zero with a no-save touch attack, paralyizing it. It's well-known to be a broken spell for exactly this reason.

And just get the young dragon unconscious first. :smallbiggrin:

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-20, 04:13 AM
Sharikov: Yes, well I wasn't thinking about the long-term possibilities of this plan. ;P And after using such a tactic, the PCs would be very paranoid and do whatever possible to avoid such a fate themselves. Such as permanent see invisibility, foresight, etc.

Ah, but it doesn't just extend to the PC's, you know. Suddenly, peasants everywhere are able to overcome their knightly lords and wizardly masters by paying some other dude to drop an invisible, silenced, teleported elephant on them. Armies are crushed by totally undetectable falling Baleen Whales. A cold war of epic proportions follows as nations capture and develop ever larger creatures to drop on each other. Eventually, something a magnitude beyond Colossal hits the ground with enough force to penetrate into the planet's core. Game over, man. Game over.

Myou
2009-08-20, 04:20 AM
With Assay and spell penetration a level 12, you have +24 vs a 33 SR.
That's still only around a 50% chance of success, which while possible, isn't exactly very reliable (not that this method is).

Plus, that wouldn't be very fun or dramatic. An elephant dumb-bomb is IMO. =)



Also, for added pyrotechnics, since the elephant will be falling for 5 rounds anyway, attach a delayed blast fireball to it. THEN it would be a dumb-bomb.
Yeah, but if it fails you do it again. If you boost your caster level it should be even easier. Unlike elephant-bomb, which allows a reflax save and is a lot harder to repeat.

I see no reason you couldn't get an 80% chance using Shivering Touch.

rezplz
2009-08-20, 04:27 AM
Ah, but it doesn't just extend to the PC's, you know. Suddenly, peasants everywhere are able to overcome their knightly lords and wizardly masters by paying some other dude to drop an invisible, silenced, teleported elephant on them. Armies are crushed by totally undetectable falling Baleen Whales. A cold war of epic proportions follows as nations capture and develop ever larger creatures to drop on each other. Eventually, something a magnitude beyond Colossal hits the ground with enough force to penetrate into the planet's core. Game over, man. Game over.

SO BASICALLY, if I'm in a gaming session with a DM that I dislike, I'll use this strategy and effectively break his world.

OR if we're doing a humor-based campaign, it could work just as well. ;D

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-20, 04:27 AM
Yeah, but if it fails you do it again. If you boost your caster level it should be even easier. Unlike elephant-bomb, which allows a reflax save and is a lot harder to repeat.

I see no reason you couldn't get an 80% chance using Shivering Touch.

I suppose, although I'm not sure the dragon would appreciate you touching it like that repeatedly. =P

The Mentalist
2009-08-20, 04:28 AM
Ah, but it doesn't just extend to the PC's, you know. Suddenly, peasants everywhere are able to overcome their knightly lords and wizardly masters by paying some other dude to drop an invisible, silenced, teleported elephant on them. Armies are crushed by totally undetectable falling Baleen Whales. A cold war of epic proportions follows as nations capture and develop ever larger creatures to drop on each other. Eventually, something a magnitude beyond Colossal hits the ground with enough force to penetrate into the planet's core. Game over, man. Game over.

That is too awesome for breakfast time... Milk and computers don't mix.


I suppose, although I'm not sure the dragon would appreciate you touching it like that repeatedly. =P

Show us on the doll where the human Shivering Touched you.

SparkMandriller
2009-08-20, 04:40 AM
What kind of great wyrm just sits out in the open waiting for bards to talk to it anyway?

kpenguin
2009-08-20, 04:43 AM
Wouldn't the dragon hear the *BAMF*? You silenced the elephant, but not the wizard or his spells. Heck, he could hear the wizard feather-falling down, his robes ruffling in the air.

Vizen
2009-08-20, 04:44 AM
Instead of killing the druid, why don't you just have a druid shapeshift into a medium sized earth elemental and drop?

EnnPeeCee
2009-08-20, 04:46 AM
Ok, I think I've hit something good. The only issue I see is making these things willing to be teleported, but thats an issue to be dealt with later. It also requires a little rule assumption.

Teleport lets you take x small or medium creatures with you. Each step up in size doubles the "number of creatures" it is. So if you go down in steps do you halve that number? If so, I've got a plan.

Spend a little time walking around and baleful polymorphing large things (could be elephants, or heck even leviathans if you can get them to fail the save) until you've collected a nice collection of squirrels to put in a bag. Stop by your local scroll shop and pick up a scroll of Mage's Disjuction.

Now proceed with the "normal" plan of distracting the dragon and teleporting 2000ft above it. However, this time, bring along your bag of 16 squirrel-leviathans. Cast Mage's Disjuction and observe from a safe distance as 16 colossal whales plummet from the sky upon you enemies.

Jack_Banzai
2009-08-20, 05:12 AM
I hear 4th Edition D&D is a very well-designed gaming system.

Best response of the thread. Made me grin anyway. :smallbiggrin:

Melamoto
2009-08-20, 05:41 AM
Ok, I think I've hit something good. The only issue I see is making these things willing to be teleported, but thats an issue to be dealt with later. It also requires a little rule assumption.

Teleport lets you take x small or medium creatures with you. Each step up in size doubles the "number of creatures" it is. So if you go down in steps do you halve that number? If so, I've got a plan.

Spend a little time walking around and baleful polymorphing large things (could be elephants, or heck even leviathans if you can get them to fail the save) until you've collected a nice collection of squirrels to put in a bag. Stop by your local scroll shop and pick up a scroll of Mage's Disjuction.

Now proceed with the "normal" plan of distracting the dragon and teleporting 2000ft above it. However, this time, bring along your bag of 16 squirrel-leviathans. Cast Mage's Disjuction and observe from a safe distance as 16 colossal whales plummet from the sky upon you enemies.

I seem to recall something similar about a crazy wizard decimating a city by doing the same tactic, although he changed whales into mice. Without shrinking tactics though, I think buffalo's are the most efficient in terms of weight to size.

Eldariel
2009-08-20, 09:13 AM
There's one pretty huge problem in this all: Great Wyrm Gold has epic spellcasting (and 9th level arcane and divine spells). So most likely he's extremely immune and has divined this event long ago (but plays along to amuse himself), and is already immune to damage from falling elephants. The whole "drop things on people" is always a nice idea though.

Ernir
2009-08-20, 09:30 AM
If you can get the Wyrm to listen to the level 12 Bard in the first place, why not just diplomance it into being your bestest buddy?

Kylarra
2009-08-20, 09:37 AM
Another problem is that a flatfooted GGW still have an AC of 42, so your wizard is trying to hit that with an elephant of indeterminate range increment from 2k+ feet away. :smalltongue:

Considering that all traps that involve stuff falling from the ceiling (a marginal distance) require attack rolls, I see no reason why this (2k+ ft in the air) shouldn't either.

Explosive runes kamikaze does it earlier and easier.

Myou
2009-08-20, 09:51 AM
Another problem is that a flatfooted GGW still have an AC of 42, so your wizard is trying to hit that with an elephant of indeterminate range increment from 2k+ feet away. :smalltongue:

Considering that all traps that involve stuff falling from the ceiling (a marginal distance) require attack rolls, I see no reason why this (2k+ ft in the air) shouldn't either.

Explosive runes kamikaze does it earlier and easier.

But do you ue the normal AC or the touch AC, which is 2?

Kylarra
2009-08-20, 09:53 AM
But do you ue the normal AC or the touch AC, which is 2?Falling brick traps use normal AC...

Signmaker
2009-08-20, 09:56 AM
I thought it was a DC 15 Reflex to avoid falling objects of doom.

Kylarra
2009-08-20, 10:04 AM
I thought it was a DC 15 Reflex to avoid falling objects of doom.I guess if we're going into siege weaponry mode, of course the wizard still needs to make that attack roll, just against AC 15 to hit the square, with appropriate range increment penalties.

So level 12 wizard, BAB +6, int mod of we'll be generous and say +7 (18 base, +2 Racial, +4 item) So total of +13.

Now, at 2000+ feet in the air, he certainly does not have LoS anymore, so that's -6, down to +7.

A heavy catapult has a range increment of 200', and dropping elephant bombs is undoubtedly less accurate than that, so he gets a cumulative -20 penalty for that one.

So -13 to hit AC 15.

GG

paddyfool
2009-08-20, 10:11 AM
As regards shivering touch, that's what scintillating scales is for. Good luck hitting a touch AC of 42.

Doc Roc
2009-08-20, 10:20 AM
You could just play a hulking hurler.

Eldariel
2009-08-20, 10:22 AM
As regards shivering touch, that's what scintillating scales is for. Good luck hitting a touch AC of 42.

...Awaken Spell Resistance also means you'll be hitting through Spell Resistance 41. Even with Assay Resistance, that's 31 which is too much for level 12 characters. You'd need Limited Wish, Greater Spell Penetration and then some. And yeah, a means past its magical defenses too.

True Striked Shivering Touch would still have trouble hitting AC 42 (probably higher; why the heck wouldn't it have any equipment on its person?) and yeah, things just go downhill from there.

lord_khaine
2009-08-20, 11:20 AM
If you can get the Wyrm to listen to the level 12 Bard in the first place, why not just diplomance it into being your bestest buddy?

Because you risk ending up as its best buddy instead?

Deepblue706
2009-08-20, 11:26 AM
Because you risk ending up as its best buddy instead?

No, it's because you want to slay an "unbeatable" encounter to earn yourself a whopping Zero XP.

sofawall
2009-08-20, 01:05 PM
Isn't falling damage capped at 20d6?

Yes, I know the damage you do to yourself is capped at 20d6, but I seem to recall the Hulking Hurler being so deadly only because there was no cap on weight damage.

Could someone link me, or, if it's not in the SRD, tell me where the rules for falling on something are?

Krrth
2009-08-20, 01:07 PM
Isn't falling damage capped at 20d6?

Yes, I know the damage you do to yourself is capped at 20d6, but I seem to recall the Hulking Hurler being so deadly only because there was no cap on weight damage.

Could someone link me, or, if it's not in the SRD, tell me where the rules for falling on something are?

As far as I know, there aren't any. Which means it's pure homebrew.

When something like this has come up before, the general consensus is that it requires either an attack roll, a save, or both. And the creature falling takes exactly as much damage as it deals.

Kylarra
2009-08-20, 01:08 PM
Isn't falling damage capped at 20d6?

Yes, I know the damage you do to yourself is capped at 20d6, but I seem to recall the Hulking Hurler being so deadly only because there was no cap on weight damage.

Could someone link me, or, if it's not in the SRD, tell me where the rules for falling on something are?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects
Oops, that's only damage. >>

Anyway, it doesn't explicitly say how objects are falling, but looking into the DMG gives us traps that end up making (melee) attack rolls that are listed as falling objects.

So there's effectively two schools of thought.
A) It's a normal attack, in which case the wizard is making an attack with an elephant vs AC 42 (flatfooted)

b) It's a siege weapon of sorts, in which case the wizard first must hit AC 15 and then the dragon can save for half (which it does without trying).

sofawall
2009-08-20, 01:28 PM
So damage due to distance caps at 20d6, meaning you need 230d6 from weight. That's, what, 46,000 pounds?

Lycanthromancer
2009-08-20, 01:29 PM
Why, oh why is this thread not named "Operation Dumbo-Drop"?!


Shivering touch does dex damage. You can drop a great wyrm's dex to zero with a no-save touch attack, paralyizing it. It's well-known to be a broken spell for exactly this reason.

And just get the young dragon unconscious first. :smallbiggrin:

Aren't unconscious creatures "automatically considered willing," according to the DMG?

Must be where half-dragons come from.

Darrin
2009-08-20, 04:17 PM
This is easier to do with an Unseen Servant and a Swan Boat (assuming you can establish a weight for the boat).

The Mentalist
2009-08-20, 04:21 PM
Why, oh why is this thread not named "Operation Dumbo-Drop"?!

You beat me to it.