PDA

View Full Version : What's broken in Complete Mage?



Sholos
2009-08-20, 06:48 AM
Basically, I'm starting up a campaign, and one player has asked that Complete Mage be included in the allowable sources. Now, I'm pretty much going to allow all the Completes, but I was wondering if there was anything specific that I should be wary about. The campaign is starting at first level and going from there.

Longcat
2009-08-20, 06:56 AM
If you're also going to allow Complete Champion, be wary of "Spontaneous Divination" as an entry method into "Ultimate Magus", a dual-casting CM PrC that combines spontaneous with prepared casting.

Other than that, Complete Mage is mostly fine, iirc.

peacenlove
2009-08-20, 07:01 AM
Although complete mage has some strong choices (such as Abjurant champion), the only thing that needs care is the Lingering metamagic feat. But if your game is set on a high strength level and character level even that feat is fine.

Saph
2009-08-20, 07:05 AM
Complete Mage is one of the better balanced 3.5 books out there. Lots of good spells and PrCs, but nothing I'd call broken.

I'd recommend against allowing Complete Champion, though, as it's notorious for having been very badly playtested (it was one of the last 3.5 books published, so the devs pretty much just shoved everything in that they had floating around and called it a day).

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-20, 08:14 AM
Arcane Fusion and it's bigger brother. Those two break the action economy in half. With them, a well-designed spellcaster can get 5 spells off in one round and only pay for 2 of them.

Longcat
2009-08-20, 08:17 AM
Arcane Fusion and it's bigger brother. Those two break the action economy in half. With them, a well-designed spellcaster can get 5 spells off in one round and only pay for 2 of them.

Aren't those Sorcerer-only spells? I mean, sorcerers are already seriously disadvantaged against wizards, and these spells offer a mechanical incentive to actually play one.

valadil
2009-08-20, 08:29 AM
I'd be wary of Abjurant Champion. You should ask the player what parts of CM he was interested in playing.

Malacode
2009-08-20, 08:31 AM
A spell known spent on greater/arcane fusion is a spell known not spent on another, probably better, spell. Just think about the other options out there. Getting extra spells out in a round may sound rather attractive, but there are better ways to do it (Arcane spellsurge for one), and I'd rather have the extra versatility. Comp.Mage is pretty well balanced, IMHO.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-08-20, 08:32 AM
I'd be wary of Abjurant Champion.

I actually thought Abjurant Champion was pretty well balanced.

mikej
2009-08-20, 08:37 AM
I have to agree with the earlier posters. Complete Mage is fairly well balanced. Complete Divine & Complete Champion are the ones you need to look out for.

Kurald Galain
2009-08-20, 08:41 AM
If you're also going to allow Complete Champion, be wary of "Spontaneous Divination" as an entry method into "Ultimate Magus",
Be wary of "Spontaneous Divination" period. It basically gives all prepared casters that take it spontaneous access to every divination spell, as if wizards needed the boost.


I actually thought Abjurant Champion was pretty well balanced.
Although it is not nearly as bad as Incantatrix or IO7V, it seems nevertheless a common choice on charop boards, so you may want to keep an eye out.

Gnorman
2009-08-20, 08:58 AM
Although it is not nearly as bad as Incantatrix or IO7V, it seems nevertheless a common choice on charop boards, so you may want to keep an eye out.

It is the best gish PrC ever printed, but you're still... playing a gish. It becomes a little ridiculous when you realize that elves (or any race with a racial martial weapon proficiency) qualify basically for free (bah, like they need the boost).

Cyclocone
2009-08-20, 08:59 AM
A spell known spent on greater/arcane fusion is a spell known not spent on another, probably better, spell. Just think about the other options out there. Getting extra spells out in a round may sound rather attractive, but there are better ways to do it (Arcane spellsurge for one), and I'd rather have the extra versatility. Comp.Mage is pretty well balanced, IMHO.

Yahh... except you could use both arcane spell surge and greater arcane fusion. By your logic, time stop isn't worth taking either.


Aren't those Sorcerer-only spells? I mean, sorcerers are already seriously disadvantaged against wizards, and these spells offer a mechanical incentive to actually play one.

+1. The sorc deserved a little loving.
As long as you don't allow something like rogue 2/focused specialist diviner 5/recaster 3/magelord 7/recaster 2/magelord 1 so the wizard can have wings of cover and arcane spell surge, the sorc-only spells are a decent idea.
Even if they aren't exactly the obvious way of making the sorc catch up.
And even if they make the monk look even more gimped.

Well, you can't spell butt monkey without monk.

mcl01
2009-08-20, 09:03 AM
Spontaneous Divination was errata'd to only apply for divination spells you know.

Doc Roc
2009-08-20, 09:03 AM
It's a common choice because it's full BAB, full casting with solid abilities and limited pre-reqs. One of the few examples of a well-designed prestige class. Here are a few of the repeatable problems I've run into:

Dragonsblood Pool: Ban-worthy.
Residual Metamagic: Very-very powerful in many builds.
Arcane Fusion: AF is an incredible spell, one of the best in print. Sorcerers actually sort of need it.

Complete champion isn't that bad, really, and offers up a lot of fun options. Just make sure one of those options isn't Ring of The Beast and you should be mostly okay.

Also: The Faith point system is horrible.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-08-20, 09:08 AM
It is the best gish PrC ever printed, but you're still... playing a gish.

Exactly. AC is stronger than the other gish PrCs, but the other gish PrCs are somewhat underpowered.

Ernir
2009-08-20, 09:09 AM
Complete Mage is one of the better balanced 3.5 books out there. Lots of good spells and PrCs, but nothing I'd call broken.
I agree with this.

Also, I'd be thrilled if one of my arcane caster players went into Abjurant Champion. It would mean they intend to spend their resources (most importantly: their actions) on sometimes whacking things with sticks, instead of playing god like everyone else.
Abjurant Champion is a good way to make a competent gish. As far as can I see, it is not a good way to break the game. :smallconfused:



Arcane Fusion and its big brother have great potential if used right. I suggest you look at those, and see whether you care for that kind of power in your game.

EDIT: Oh, and yes... forgot that's where Dragonsblood Pool lies. Nasty thing. Listen to Tidesinger. 0_o

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-20, 09:09 AM
Aren't those Sorcerer-only spells? I mean, sorcerers are already seriously disadvantaged against wizards, and these spells offer a mechanical incentive to actually play one.

Recaster, Wyrm Wizard, Spell to Power Erudite, there's a myriad of ways to get Arcane Fusion without being a Sorcerer. That's why it's broken, because the Devs didn't take those into account when they made the spell.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-20, 10:02 AM
Recaster, Wyrm Wizard, Spell to Power Erudite, there's a myriad of ways to get Arcane Fusion without being a Sorcerer. That's why it's broken, because the Devs didn't take those into account when they made the spell.
...Lyric Thaumaturge...

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-20, 01:50 PM
Complete Mage is one of the better balanced 3.5 books out there. Lots of good spells and PrCs, but nothing I'd call broken.

I'd recommend against allowing Complete Champion, though, as it's notorious for having been very badly playtested (it was one of the last 3.5 books published, so the devs pretty much just shoved everything in that they had floating around and called it a day).Champ is far worse than Divine. Champ includes good, useful things like Devotion feats. Divine includes ways of making Clerics better than Planar Shepherds. Champ really doesn't have much broken in it.

Doc Roc
2009-08-20, 02:03 PM
Recaster, Wyrm Wizard, Spell to Power Erudite, there's a myriad of ways to get Arcane Fusion without being a Sorcerer. That's why it's broken, because the Devs didn't take those into account when they made the spell.

If your GM allows spell to power erudite, just turn and start running.

It won't save you, but it will increase the number of precious seconds you have left.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-20, 02:44 PM
If your GM allows spell to power erudite, just turn and start running.

It won't save you, but it will increase the number of precious seconds you have left.

Well, that is a given.

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 03:58 PM
Recaster, Wyrm Wizard, Spell to Power Erudite, there's a myriad of ways to get Arcane Fusion without being a Sorcerer. That's why it's broken, because the Devs didn't take those into account when they made the spell.

Could you explain to me why casting a fourth level spell and a seventh level spell is notably more powerful than simply casting an eighth level spell? The lower level version of arcane version isn't even worth talking about since first level spells are trash at level 9+ anyways. I mean, why would I ever cast finger of death+enervation over just tossing out mass charm monster to end the combat?

I mean, there are niche cases where greater arcane fusion is handy to have around (celerity), but *most* of those niche cases require spells that are problematic on their own and are no real selling point of 4th level effect+7th level effect being notably more potent than 8th level effect.

In math terms now:
In D&D, two CR X creatures are supposed to be worth a single CR X+2 creature. This means that you are literally supposed to double in power every two levels. As such, this means that your new level of spells is on average supposed to be literally twice as powerful as the spells you had two levels ago.

I mean, it can be a handy spell to have (toss out a dispel magic to drop a debuff off your ally+cast an offensive spell), but it is by no means anything to get all that excited about.

Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic) on the other hand is something to get totally excited about. Full round spell (there are some out there for wizards; not just sorcerers with metamagic)+standard action spell+spells from familiar (via imbue familiar with spell ability) is a fantastic drop point.

But really, arcane fusion is kinda meh. I've never really found a reason to ever cast it instead of just ending combat with a higher level effect. It's good to have (like the dispel magic situation), but nothing that actually helps offence.

Edit: And erudite is not really better than sorcerer even with spell to power. Look at the mechanic for learning discipline powers (what spell to power replaces) and unique powers per day. The class is basically unplayable before 11th level and even then isn't as good as a core wizard.

Prime32
2009-08-20, 04:06 PM
Could you explain to me why casting a fourth level spell and a seventh level spell is notably more powerful than simply casting an eighth level spell? The lower level version of arcane version isn't even worth talking about since first level spells are trash at level 9+ anyways. I mean, why would I ever cast finger of death+enervation over just tossing out mass charm monster to end the combat?For a start, you can apply metamagic feats to both component spells at once.

quick_comment
2009-08-20, 04:09 PM
Because a 7th level SoD plus a 4th level SoD is more likely to work than an 8th level SoD.

As for regular arcane fusion, its still pretty great. Its breaking the action economy. Fly + wings of swift flight in one action. Greater Mage Armor + Shield. True Strike + Enervation. Ray of Enfeeblement + Ray of escalating enfeeblement.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-20, 04:14 PM
Because a 7th level SoD plus a 4th level SoD is more likely to work than an 8th level SoD.

As for regular arcane fusion, its still pretty great. Its breaking the action economy. Fly + wings of swift flight in one action. Greater Mage Armor + Shield. True Strike + Enervation. Ray of Enfeeblement + Ray of escalating enfeeblement.

Assay Spell Resistance + Some SR: Yes spell.

quick_comment
2009-08-20, 04:21 PM
Assay Spell Resistance + Some SR: Yes spell.

You could even do
[Swift] Assay Resistance
[Std] Arcane Fusion: True Casting + SR: Yes spell.

This gives you +20 on your bonus to beat SR. Sure, few things have SR that high, but they exist. (Rakshasa's have SR 27+class level. A level 20 rakshasha would have SR 40)

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 04:31 PM
For a start, you can apply metamagic feats to both component spells at once.
Woohoo? Metamagic is worse than casting a higher level spell aside from a few specific builds (which are still mostly worse than just casting SoDs anyways).

Because a 7th level SoD plus a 4th level SoD is more likely to work than an 8th level SoD.

As for regular arcane fusion, its still pretty great. Its breaking the action economy. Fly + wings of swift flight in one action. Greater Mage Armor + Shield. True Strike + Enervation. Ray of Enfeeblement + Ray of escalating enfeeblement.

You do realize that I specifically called out mass charm monster (CL in creatures) as opposed to finger of death (one creature), right? The only fourth level SoD is phantasmal killer. That is not only mind effecting, but also a fear effect. Oh, it also allows two saves.

I mean, did you even read what I wrote? I specifically named spells in advance that invalidate this whole line of argument.

Mass Charm Monster:
Will save for 15 creatures or lose the combat. (against one creature you just cast Otto's irrisistable dance or maze to simply win)

Finger of death+phantasmal killer:
Save at 1 point lower vs death and 2 saves at 4 points lower vs death against a single creature.

So, for single target we've got "No save. Lose." against single targets and "all of y'all make a will save at my highest DC or join my team" or "save or lose" against a single target.

Do you see how unimpressive this is as an option offensively?

As for the other stuff, I already addressed that as well. Buffing in combat is not winning in combat. It's drawing out combat. At the point where you are worrying about actions you shouldn't be casting fly. You should be casting solid fog so the enemy *loses*.
{scrubbed}

Voice of Reason
2009-08-20, 04:34 PM
The reason that people warn again "Arcane Fusion" and "Greater Arcane Fusion" is because it allows two spells to be cast for the price of one, although they are admittedly low-level spells. I don't have my book on me, but I believe that they both take a full-round action, although this can be reduced to a standard action through a variety of means. Once they're standard action casts, you can start chain them together:

1) Cast Greater Arcane Fusion as a standard action. Cast a 7th and 4th level spell.
2a) Use your 4th level spell on whatever you want.
2b) Use your seventh level spell to cast Arcane Fusion (now a standard action). Gain a 4th and 1st level spell to cast.
3a) Use your level one spell on whatever you want to cast; small self-buffs work well, like shield.
3b) Use you 4th level spell on whatever you want.

Now you're getting three spells for the price of one. If using metamagic tricks, you can start throwing out a Quickened Greater Arcane Fusion every round for 6 spells per round, and that's without chain spell or repeat spell. That's a lot of spells. The thing to keep in mind, of course, is that instead of your 8th-level spell, you're casting 2 4th and a 1st level spell.

Whether or not the sorcerer could use the buff, I'm not to say; personally, I have always favored sorcerer over wizard.

I don't consider Abjurant Chamion game-breaking, although I will admit the existance of "you can't hit me" optimized tanks with this prestige class at their core (usually alongside with a level or two of monk for the wis bonus).

One last thing to be aware of, though, is reserve feats. To be frank, they don't break the game, and really aren't even all that optimized. The only reason I bring it up is because when you compare the damage of some of the reserve feats (fiery burst) the damage scales just as quickly as a Warlock's eldritch blast, or a Dragonfire Adept's breath weapon, which makes those classes a lot less apealing when you could be casting third-level spells instead of lesser invocations.

quick_comment
2009-08-20, 04:35 PM
Have you ever even read mass charm monster? You can affect up two twice your caster level in HD total. So your level 15 wizard is charming what, a gaggle of geese?

As for no save, lose, lol. Irresitable dance is a touch spell, works only against living targets, and is mind affecting and a compulsion. Maze doesnt make them lose, it gives the creature 10 minutes to buff itself.

KIDS
2009-08-20, 04:39 PM
Abjurant Champion is overpowered compared to all of the existing gish classes (mind you, they needed a boost, but not that big), and can also be taken by any wizard just so they gain some more hit points and abilities, no serious prerequisites involved.

The "Heart of" spells are broken. Air and Fire are fine, but Water (Freedom of Movement as a reaction arcane spell) and Earth (Stoneskin as a reaction arcane spell without any components) are crazy.

Apart from those, there is nothing I'd worry about. In fact, most of the book is too weak and makes its often solid concept fall through the floor in terms of playability.

The Reserve feats are broken in an opposite way, a good idea but way too weak (except for Fiery Burst at lvl 3 and lvl 3 only) to actually work. It's a pity...

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 04:39 PM
You could even do
[Swift] Assay Resistance
[Std] Arcane Fusion: True Casting + SR: Yes spell.

This gives you +20 on your bonus to beat SR. Sure, few things have SR that high, but they exist. (Rakshasa's have SR 27+class level. A level 20 rakshasha would have SR 40)


Cloudkill
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: Cloud spreads in 20-ft. radius, 20 ft. high
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial; see text
Spell Resistance: No
This spell generates a bank of fog, similar to a fog cloud, except that its vapors are yellowish green and poisonous. These vapors automatically kill any living creature with 3 or fewer HD (no save). A living creature with 4 to 6 HD is slain unless it succeeds on a Fortitude save (in which case it takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud).

A living creature with 6 or more HD takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud (a successful Fortitude save halves this damage). Holding one’s breath doesn’t help, but creatures immune to poison are unaffected by the spell.

Unlike a fog cloud, the cloudkill moves away from you at 10 feet per round, rolling along the surface of the ground.

Figure out the cloud’s new spread each round based on its new point of origin, which is 10 feet farther away from the point of origin where you cast the spell.

Because the vapors are heavier than air, they sink to the lowest level of the land, even pouring down den or sinkhole openings. It cannot penetrate liquids, nor can it be cast underwater.

Of course, a rakshasa enemy always has SR = to it's CR+17 (because that's how SR works; it's a function of CR) and a Rakshasa with 20 class levels is actually a CR 30 with 27th level sorcerer casting (and SR 47).

So really, I have no idea why you are bringing CR 30 creatures up. Yes, Rakshasas have more SR than basically any other creature. No, that doesn't mean that you need to cast SR:Yes spells at it. Some creatures are flat out immune to magic. Plan accordingly.

Salt_Crow
2009-08-20, 04:41 PM
Of course, a rakshasa enemy always has SR = to it's CR+17 (because that's how SR works; it's a function of CR) and a Rakshasa with 20 class levels is actually a CR 30 with 27th level sorcerer casting (and SR 47).

Is there any official source that indicates all SR being a function of CR? I know a few creatures that specifically mention (rakshasa, mind fl...!) it, but I wasn't aware that even those w/o such mention (couatl etc) also advanced as such.

Edit: just curious ;)

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 04:47 PM
Have you ever even read mass charm monster? You can affect up two twice your caster level in HD total. So your level 15 wizard is charming what, a gaggle of geese?
Enemies make saves. The fact is, it's going to force enemies out of combat. Every time. If you're actually facing a whole bunch of HD worth of enemies (most common way would be facing like 8 CR=party level -2) creatures) and you take out a quarter of them, you are totally taking out your portion of the encounter all by yourself as a standard action. And then your two enemies are now on your team. How is turning a quarter (or half if it's only four creatures) of the enemies into allies not contributing more than killing a single enemy?

As for no save, lose, lol. Irresitable dance is a touch spell, works only against living targets, and is mind affecting and a compulsion. Maze doesnt make them lose, it gives the creature 10 minutes to buff itself.
1) Spectral hand, archmage's reach ability, reach spell metamagic rods, not caring about being range:touch because you are a caster and have better defenses than most melee characters, etc. Being range:touch simply isn't an issue.
2) If it isn't living don't cast it. Slay living only works against living creatures. Phantasmal killer only works against living creatures. Surprise surprise the same thing applies to your argument.
3) Phantasmal killer is mind effecting.
4) Most MM creatures simply aren't immune to that stuff. Casters are, but MM creatures aren't.
5) Most MM creatures don't have any buffing ability that wouldn't have been on before the combat anyways *and* don't have teleportation.
6) Don't your wizards prepare greater anticipate teleportation when they're tossing out 8th level SoDs? Why would the creature's ability to come back and attack you be something you care about?

Fax Celestis
2009-08-20, 04:48 PM
Is there any official source that indicates all SR being a function of CR? I know a few creatures that specifically mention (rakshasa, mind fl...!) it, but I wasn't aware that even those w/o such mention (couatl etc) also advanced as such.

Edit: just curious ;)

SR is generally a function of HD, not CR.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-20, 04:48 PM
Could you explain to me why casting a fourth level spell and a seventh level spell is notably more powerful than simply casting an eighth level spell? The lower level version of arcane version isn't even worth talking about since first level spells are trash at level 9+ anyways. I mean, why would I ever cast finger of death+enervation over just tossing out mass charm monster to end the combat?

Because SoD's suck. I'd rather toss out a Solid Fog+Celerity into another 8th level Arcane Fusion (or any other spell I can cast as a Standard action) than waste a spell slot on Mass Charm Monster (because Mind Affecting tags are a horrible thing to rely on). It goes from "Save or Die" to "No Save, Just Lose". Barring an Ethereal/Incorporeal creature (which a metamagic feat can take care of and are surprisingly sparse in the CR 20 range without being vulnerable to Dispelling), nothing gets out of a Solid Fog+Dimensional Lock.

When the first action you can take has a 50% chance of ending the encounter, you are optimized. But when the first action you take completely f***s over anything within the area that isn't your ally with no save at all, then you are GOD. It breaks the action economy in half, and then shoves both halves up whatever orifice your enemies may have.

Oh, and Chain Spell+Metamagic reducer+Finger of Death+Celerity+Greater Arcane Fusion= 40 Save or Dies. Or more, if you feel like getting immunity to Daze. A single


I mean, there are niche cases where greater arcane fusion is handy to have around (celerity), but *most* of those niche cases require spells that are problematic on their own and are no real selling point of 4th level effect+7th level effect being notably more potent than 8th level effect.


2 game-breaker spells for the cost of a single spell slot (slightly higher level) isn't worth the standard action? Since when has Celerity+Evard's into Cloudkill+Waves of Exhaustion been worse than Chained Finger of Death or Mass Dominate Person (both of which allow a save, whereas only one of the three spells before it allow one)?

I admit, Charm effects are good, but so many ways to become immune...


In math terms now:
In D&D, two CR X creatures are supposed to be worth a single CR X+2 creature. This means that you are literally supposed to double in power every two levels. As such, this means that your new level of spells is on average supposed to be literally twice as powerful as the spells you had two levels ago.

I mean, it can be a handy spell to have (toss out a dispel magic to drop a debuff off your ally+cast an offensive spell), but it is by no means anything to get all that excited about.

Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic) on the other hand is something to get totally excited about. Full round spell (there are some out there for wizards; not just sorcerers with metamagic)+standard action spell+spells from familiar (via imbue familiar with spell ability) is a fantastic drop point.


Greater Arcane Fusion can cast Arcane Spellsurge too, you know? With the right tricks up his sleeve, a Wizard with both spells (Wyrm Wizard or Recaster) can very easily nova or replicate the very things you mention. Arcane Fusion isn't the only spell you cast, it's just an efficient way to buff/debuff/screw with reality.



But really, arcane fusion is kinda meh. I've never really found a reason to ever cast it instead of just ending combat with a higher level effect. It's good to have (like the dispel magic situation), but nothing that actually helps offence.

Wait, you want to use a higher level effect to end the encounter when the lower level one is capable of doing the same thing, but with style?


Edit: And erudite is not really better than sorcerer even with spell to power. Look at the mechanic for learning discipline powers (what spell to power replaces) and unique powers per day. The class is basically unplayable before 11th level and even then isn't as good as a core wizard.

Actually StP replaces your PsiCrystal, not your ability to learn Discipline powers (unless you mean the Disciplined Erudite variant, in which case Psi Reform can pull some shenanigans to get you a few of them).

As for their Unique Powers/Day, there's been some rereading:


Unlike a psion, an erudite
is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique
psionic powers of each level per day from, the repertoire
of powers he knows, according to his class level.

The example text below that part was added by Bruce Cordell, and contradicts the text directly above it. This means there's 3 possible ways to interpret it:

1) As Cordell and many others believe, where a 20th level Erudite is only capable of manifesting 11 unique powers/day (which contradicts the text in favor of Cordell's editing error).

2) As the text says, and probably intended by Paizo (the class was printed in Dragon, after all). In this case, a 20th level Erudite is capable of manifesting 11 unique powers/power level (1st through 9th)/day. This is how the original Dragon Magazine version was written, as it didn't include Cordell's addendum that contradicts the text.

3) As written completely, where the 20th level Erudite is capable of manifesting 11 unique powers/class level (subtle difference here, but that's one possible interpretation)/day. Arguably broken, may or may not be intended, but it's what the text says.


Under the 1st interpretation, I agree with you. The Erudite is extremely limited and nigh unplayable until 11th. In this case, I recommend using Spell to Power, if only for a few spells that will assist him (Rope Trick, possibly Arcane Fusion). Linked Power is also a good option here.

Under the 2nd, I recommend just plain Erudite until about 6th level (when you can enter Anarchic Initiate, and from there Slayer). This one is on par with a Psion who has a major expansion in powers known, but is only a Tier 2. Adding Spell to Power breaks this interpretation and pushes him up to Tier 1, but only barely.

Under the 3rd, I recommend shooting the DM to spare him the misery of you sifting through every single book that has ever printed a Psionic Power. Heaven forbid he allows this and Spell to Power, as you will have access to any 220 spells or powers of your spontaneous choice each day.




Note that under all three of those the Erudite is capable of deciding his Unique Powers/Day spontaneously, instead of having to prepare them before-hand like the Spirit Shaman does.

quick_comment
2009-08-20, 04:59 PM
1) Spectral hand, archmage's reach ability, reach spell metamagic rods, not caring about being range:touch because you are a caster and have better defenses than most melee characters, etc. Being range:touch simply isn't an issue.
2) If it isn't living don't cast it. Slay living only works against living creatures. Phantasmal killer only works against living creatures. Surprise surprise the same thing applies to your argument.
3) Phantasmal killer is mind effecting.
4) Most MM creatures simply aren't immune to that stuff. Casters are, but MM creatures aren't.
5) Most MM creatures don't have any buffing ability that wouldn't have been on before the combat anyways *and* don't have teleportation.
6) Don't your wizards prepare greater anticipate teleportation when they're tossing out 8th level SoDs? Why would the creature's ability to come back and attack you be something you care about?

I dont know why you are obsessed with phantasmal killer. Blinding breath is 4th level. Melf's slumber arrows are 4th level. Corporeal instability is 4th level. I also dont know why you are comparing out of core abilities to core monsters.

Here is what happens when you maze a creature that is actually a threat (say, a dragon, or a necromancer). It spends however long it wants buffing itself. It can wait 10 minutes for your round/level buffs to expire, or it can just buff, and then make the int check. They can also just plane shift out. Anticipate teleport does not help, because it doesnt extend to the maze extradimensional space. (And nobody prepares transdimensional ancitipate teleport)

The fact is, two saves, at x-1 and x-4 are almost always better than one save at x. http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=(x%2B.05)(x%2B.20)%3C%3Dx

Purple line is the chance of making a particular save, the blue parabola is the chance of making two saves at -1 and -4.

boomwolf
2009-08-20, 05:05 PM
I would also be wary of the entire list of feat who gives you infinite semi-spells as long you got spell slot left/spells memorized.

These tend to turn a lot of dungeons into a pure hack-and-slash with all traps and riddles completely overcome without any PC putting himself in danger.

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 05:10 PM
Because SoD's suck. I'd rather toss out a Solid Fog+Celerity into another 8th level Arcane Fusion (or any other spell I can cast as a Standard action) than waste a spell slot on Mass Charm Monster (because Mind Affecting tags are a horrible thing to rely on). It goes from "Save or Die" to "No Save, Just Lose". Barring an Ethereal/Incorporeal creature (which a metamagic feat can take care of and are surprisingly sparse in the CR 20 range without being vulnerable to Dispelling), nothing gets out of a Solid Fog+Dimensional Lock.
Yeah, celerity is awesome. We know. BC is good. I've never debated that. Now try to make a point without celerity.

When the first action you can take has a 50% chance of ending the encounter, you are optimized. But when the first action you take completely f***s over anything within the area that isn't your ally with no save at all, then you are GOD. It breaks the action economy in half, and then shoves both halves up whatever orifice your enemies may have.
Yeah, BC is totally good against multiple creatures. I don't think I've called out BC as not being a good use of spell slots. I can totally get behind arcane fusion being good for D. Anchor+some spell that locks down movement that FoM doesn't ignore (I don't know any besides forcecage off the top of my head).

Oh, and Chain Spell+Metamagic reducer+Finger of Death+Celerity+Greater Arcane Fusion= 40 Save or Dies. Or more, if you feel like getting immunity to Daze. A single
Yeah, you have to spend resources for that metamagic reducer. I kind of brought that up as a point that to bring cheaper metamagic into the equation is kind of ignoring the whole debate (optimizing one side without the other). And I already brought up celerity. Make an example without it and I'll care.

2 game-breaker spells for the cost of a single spell slot (slightly higher level) isn't worth the standard action? Since when has Celerity+Evard's into Cloudkill+Waves of Exhaustion been worse than Chained Finger of Death or Mass Dominate Person (both of which allow a save, whereas only one of the three spells before it allow one)?
Yeah, celerity again. Watch me care. I'm saying that arcane fusion in itself isn't that amazing (not that it's not a good spell to pick up and cast every now and then, but simply not as good as it's made out to be). Make an example of when you'd cast it without celerity (a spell everyone agrees is too good if you're ignoring the daze) and I'll care.

I admit, Charm effects are good, but so many ways to become immune...
I totally agree. That's why I generally don't cast them except against brute type enemies (giants and such) that don't generally have immunity. Baleful polymorph is actually my SoD of choice because so many fewer things are immune to polymorph effects than death effects or mind effecting.

Greater Arcane Fusion can cast Arcane Spellsurge too, you know? With the right tricks up his sleeve, a Wizard with both spells (Wyrm Wizard or Recaster) can very easily nova or replicate the very things you mention. Arcane Fusion isn't the only spell you cast, it's just an efficient way to buff/debuff/screw with reality.
Yeah, arcane spellsurge is awesome. I totally just made that point. Now make an example I care about. Saying X effect+ Y effect (where Y effect has been acknowledged to be way too ****ing awesome) = way too ****ing awesome says nothing about X effect. Keep up here, Sinfire. I'm not saying it sucks. I'm saying it isn't as great as you think it is. Make an argument without Y and I'll totally probably agree with you that it's one of those times where it's a good idea to cast it.

Wait, you want to use a higher level effect to end the encounter when the lower level one is capable of doing the same thing, but with style?

Explain what you mean here. We're talking eighth level slots, so using an eighth level slot for a seventh level spell as opposed to just using an eighth level spell is totally a higher level effect for the same resources.

Actually StP replaces your PsiCrystal, not your ability to learn Discipline powers (unless you mean the Disciplined Erudite variant, in which case Psi Reform can pull some shenanigans to get you a few of them).
My bad on the wording there:


You treat the spell as a discipline power for the basis of learning it, and you must first succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell's level) and then a Psicraft check as per the normal rules of learning a discipline power (see page 154 of Complete Psionic).

I meant that it has all the restrictions of discipline powers.

As for their Unique Powers/Day, there's been some rereading:



The example text below that part was added by Bruce Cordell, and contradicts the text directly above it. This means there's 3 possible ways to interpret it:

1) As Cordell and many others believe, where a 20th level Erudite is only capable of manifesting 11 unique powers/day (which contradicts the text in favor of Cordell's editing error).

2) As the text says, and probably intended by Paizo (the class was printed in Dragon, after all). In this case, a 20th level Erudite is capable of manifesting 11 unique powers/power level (1st through 9th)/day. This is how the original Dragon Magazine version was written, as it didn't include Cordell's addendum that contradicts the text.

3) As written completely, where the 20th level Erudite is capable of manifesting 11 unique powers/class level (subtle difference here, but that's one possible interpretation)/day. Arguably broken, may or may not be intended, but it's what the text says.


Under the 1st interpretation, I agree with you. The Erudite is extremely limited and nigh unplayable until 11th. In this case, I recommend using Spell to Power, if only for a few spells that will assist him (Rope Trick, possibly Arcane Fusion). Linked Power is also a good option here.

Under the 2nd, I recommend just plain Erudite until about 6th level (when you can enter Anarchic Initiate, and from there Slayer). This one is on par with a Psion who has a major expansion in powers known, but is only a Tier 2. Adding Spell to Power breaks this interpretation and pushes him up to Tier 1, but only barely.

Under the 3rd, I recommend shooting the DM to spare him the misery of you sifting through every single book that has ever printed a Psionic Power. Heaven forbid he allows this and Spell to Power, as you will have access to any 220 spells or powers of your spontaneous choice each day.




Note that under all three of those the Erudite is capable of deciding his Unique Powers/Day spontaneously, instead of having to prepare them before-hand like the Spirit Shaman does.
Yeah, we know that erudite is badly written. It's totally more of a headache without any real power increases unless you are a complete rules lawyer (the title of the section and the table say unique powers per day while the text says per day per level, so the text straight up contradicts itself). Erudite actually requires houseruling (picking one or the other) to use and is a whole lot of paperwork (xp costs and such) for no real increase in power over a psion (spell to power is an increase as long as you can make do on the unique powers per day that your DM picks).

Yeah, Erudite is a badly written class, requires more headache than the class it is based on, and has a lower minimum power level than the class it's based on. It's just a headache of a class is the biggest reason I don't suggest it to people. The fact that it isn't even as good as a psion without the per day per level houseruling is just a side note.

quick_comment
2009-08-20, 05:12 PM
I would also be wary of the entire list of feat who gives you infinite semi-spells as long you got spell slot left/spells memorized.

These tend to turn a lot of dungeons into a pure hack-and-slash with all traps and riddles completely overcome without any PC putting himself in danger.

Reserve feats? They are usually pretty weak. A level 15 wizard with 8th level spells is dealing 8d6 with fiery burst. Thats an average of 28 damage. A level 15 warblade can be using 8th level strikes like diamond nightmare blade every other round. Assuming a d6 weapon, thats 4d6+4(str+power attack). With 20 strength and PA for -5, thats an average of 75 damage. Its only every other round, which averages to 37.5 plus the regular attack on the off rounds to recover. And thats completely unoptimized. An optimized warblade is going to have much higher strength and be able to power attack for much more.

Doc Roc
2009-08-20, 05:14 PM
Erm, actually, erudite is probably the single most often banned class, thanks in large part to the fallout of spell-to-power erudite, but also because it's just very powerful itself.

As for a point without celerity:

Arcane fusion+sanctum spell loop. I bet you know that one.

I think, Archer, that you will find you need to keep cutting and slicing away things. Arcane fusion is simply some of the best action economy kung-fu running around out there, particularly meshed with Arcane Spellsurge.

quick_comment
2009-08-20, 05:15 PM
Erm, actually, erudite is probably the single most often banned class, thanks in large part to the fallout of spell-to-power erudite, but also because it's just very powerful itself.

As for a point without celerity:

Arcane fusion+sanctum spell loop.

Dont bother, im pretty sure that he is from that other thread on brilliant gameologists where 25 other people tried explaining to him how the spell to power erudite is hopelessly broken, but he is just going to reassert that its a T2 class and worse than the sorcerer.

Doc Roc
2009-08-20, 05:19 PM
I refuse to give up hope that people can grok the mathematics of power and action economy. Arcane fusion lets you, within a specific level bracket and area of operation, act as though you are two casters. Stacked with Arcane Spellsurge, you begin to act as though you are four casters. Stacked with sanctum spell, you can blow your entire 7th-and-down set for the day. Anything that engenders a two-component loop is pretty good. Sure it eats eighth level spells, but those are trivial to get.

And uhhh... Sinfire's kung fu is mighty like an elemental monolith.....
So yeah. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoYeah)

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 05:21 PM
I dont know why you are obsessed with phantasmal killer. Blinding breath is 4th level. Melf's slumber arrows are 4th level. Corporeal instability is 4th level. I also dont know why you are comparing out of core abilities to core monsters.
Mostly because it's core and I'm lazy. As for your counters:
Blinding Breath: Oh no, glitterdust!
Melf's Slumber Arrows: I don't even know where this is. I generally don't go outside of spell compendium and the PHB for spells.
Corporeal instability: That's pretty nice. Range is touch though. I'd still cast charm monster instead.

So, corporeal instability is nice. You're still casting it at level 15 which means the save isn't keeping up (note that fort saves are the highest average save and this is four points below your max DC).

Here is what happens when you maze a creature that is actually a threat (say, a dragon, or a necromancer). It spends however long it wants buffing itself. It can wait 10 minutes for your round/level buffs to expire, or it can just buff, and then make the int check. They can also just plane shift out. Anticipate teleport does not help, because it doesnt extend to the maze extradimensional space. (And nobody prepares transdimensional ancitipate teleport)
Ah right, it's plane shift and not teleport. How about you cast a different spell since you're not an idiot? Perhaps that one that makes them dance for no save? You're still arguing specifics and not defeating my main point:

Arcane fusion is not "I win every encounter". Arcane fusion is "I use it every once in a while because it's neat".

The fact is, two saves, at x-1 and x-4 are almost always better than one save at x. http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=(x%2B.05)(x%2B.20)%3C%3Dx

Purple line is the chance of making a particular save, the blue parabola is the chance of making two saves at -1 and -4.
Take a look at my post again. I never used a single target SoD. I used CL targets SoDs or "Don't save. Die".


{Scrubbed}

quick_comment
2009-08-20, 05:22 PM
I refuse to give up hope that people can grok the mathematics of power and action economy. Arcane fusion lets you, within a specific level bracket and area of operation, act as though you are two casters. Stacked with Arcane Spellsurge, you begin to act as though you are four casters. Stacked with sanctum spell, you can blow your entire 7th-and-down set for the day.

And uhhh... Sinfire's kung fu is mighty like an elemental monolith.....
So yeah. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoYeah)

No, no, no, dragonwraught loredrake sorcerers with timeless fast time planes and shapechanged into chronotytrn can cast lots of spells too!

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5117.0

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 05:23 PM
Erm, actually, erudite is probably the single most often banned class, thanks in large part to the fallout of spell-to-power erudite, but also because it's just very powerful itself.

As for a point without celerity:

Arcane fusion+sanctum spell loop. I bet you know that one.

I think, Archer, that you will find you need to keep cutting and slicing away things. Arcane fusion is simply some of the best action economy kung-fu running around out there, particularly meshed with Arcane Spellsurge.

Yeah, sanctum spell is nice. Now show me something without using Y. I've never said that arcane fusion isn't good. I've just said it isn't as good as people make it out to be.

Doc Roc
2009-08-20, 05:24 PM
That's true. Archer, you just called sinfire an idiot?

Archer, Arcane fusion uses other things. That's how it works. You slice and you slice and you slice, and then you offer me a toothpick instead of a tree. Good news: I can kill you with a toothpick.

quick_comment
2009-08-20, 05:25 PM
Take a look at my post again. I never used a single target SoD. I used CL targets SoDs or "Don't save. Die".



No, you didnt.

Charm monster, mass is a piece of crap. Wow, you can charm a horde of mooks. Amazing. Thats like, monk level power right there, I am in awe. Nevermind the fact that HD scale faster than CR, so odds are, you are going to end up using it as a heightened charm monster.

Gnorman
2009-08-20, 05:26 PM
Reserve feats? They are usually pretty weak. A level 15 wizard with 8th level spells is dealing 8d6 with fiery burst. Thats an average of 28 damage. A level 15 warblade can be using 8th level strikes like diamond nightmare blade every other round. Assuming a d6 weapon, thats 4d6+4(str+power attack). With 20 strength and PA for -5, thats an average of 75 damage. Its only every other round, which averages to 37.5 plus the regular attack on the off rounds to recover. And thats completely unoptimized. An optimized warblade is going to have much higher strength and be able to power attack for much more.

I believe boomwolf's concerns can be summed up in two words: Summon Elemental.

Infinite trapmonkeys, earth elementals burrowing through floors and walls to see what's on the other side, air elementals scouting around corners... etc.

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 05:32 PM
That's true. Archer, you just called sinfire an idiot?
I don't seem to have called him an idiot. Where are you talking about. I know he has aspergers, but that's a learning disorder and not idiocy.

Archer, Arcane fusion uses other things. That's how it works. You slice and you slice and you slice, and then you offer me a toothpick instead of a tree. Good news: I can kill you with a toothpick.
You don't seem to get it.

Celerity: Broken on it's own.
Sanctum Spell abuse: Broken on it's own.

You can't say that something is broken on it's own by adding things that are known to be broken to your argument. That's just bad debate.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-20, 05:36 PM
...way to be insulting. I'm going to stop listening to you now and pretend you're talking about puppies and sunshine.

Doc Roc
2009-08-20, 05:41 PM
I don't seem to have called him an idiot. Where are you talking about. I know he has aspergers, but that's a learning disorder and not idiocy.

You don't seem to get it.

Celerity: Broken on it's own.
Sanctum Spell abuse: Broken on it's own.

You can't say that something is broken on it's own by adding things that are known to be broken to your argument. That's just bad debate.

I sincerely hope you actually know Sinfire, and know that he in fact has an autistic spectrum disorder, and did not just call out a random and very polite stranger on the internet. Me, I'd rather talk about candlejack than talk to you. At least he always brings chocolate and ros

AstralFire
2009-08-20, 05:44 PM
Me, I'd rather talk about candlejack than talk to you. At least he always brings chocolate and ros

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3365/3303986749_f353c930e1.jpg

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 05:44 PM
No, you didnt.

Charm monster, mass is a piece of crap. Wow, you can charm a horde of mooks. Amazing. Thats like, monk level power right there, I am in awe. Nevermind the fact that HD scale faster than CR, so odds are, you are going to end up using it as a heightened charm monster.

OK, let me show you some example encounters since you don't get it. Since we're talking about eighth level spells, I'll use encounter level 15s. Here are some example encounters:

1 CR 15 dragon (7th level CL)
6 Bebeliths
2 Glabrezu
A 15th level cleric necromancer + undead horde
A 15t level Wizard
4 Cloud Giants

Let's go one by one:
Dragon: doesn't have plane shift or teleport or any real buffs. You win with maze.
Bebeliths: Two of these things turn on their companions and suddenly it's you+2 bebeliths vs 4 bebeliths. If they survive, you have minions.
Glabrezu: Both fail and you get minions. Or one fails and you win the encounter and get a minion.
Necromancer: You better have a way to kill the cleric quick because tossing down BC probably won't be enough against the cleric. This one's dicey no matter what. Arcane fusion for greater dispel magic+EBT looks handy for an opener here.
Wizard: You're facing yourself. 50% odds either way. Same as the cleric though, arcane fusion looks like a decent option to get out the dispel and a BC in the same round.
Cloud giants: You charm one and the rest you can just kill off. They have crappy will saves so can get killed pretty easily. Don't bother using top level slots against these guys. Just use cloudkill or something.

Make sense now?

Doc Roc
2009-08-20, 05:46 PM
Bringing him home to meet mother was really rough on him... I could see him tense up every time she said his name, like he understood that there was a subtext there of disrespect for his profession but also an implication of burdensome expectations. But Candlejack was really good about it and we had a lovely dinner togeth

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 05:47 PM
I sincerely hope you actually know Sinfire, and know that he in fact has an autistic spectrum disorder, and did not just call out a random and very polite stranger on the internet. Me, I'd rather talk about candlejack than talk to you. At least he always brings chocolate and ros

Back in the day, I interacted with him a lot. But he has stated publicly that he has aspergers. Why is this an issue? I have antisocial disorder (it's a misnomer; look it up). You don't see me trying to discredit him because of it, do you?

Doc Roc
2009-08-20, 05:48 PM
I think it is not unreasonable to suggest that maybe bringing that up was a social faux pas, man. To clarify, Asperger's Syndrome is classically not regarded as a learning disability but rather as a part of the broader category of autistic spectrum disorders, in part because of the varied way it manifests, but also because Asperger's rarely impedes an individual's rate of uptake outside of social situations and limited cases. I, on the other hand, do have a learning disability.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-20, 05:50 PM
I think it is not unreasonable to suggest that maybe bringing that up was a social faux pas, man.

Among other things, it is rude.

Doc Roc
2009-08-20, 05:53 PM
Among other things, it is rude.

Eh, mebbe not intended to be. Rude is sort of a matter of intent in a forum like this. I'm willing to try and give Archer the benefit of the doubt, if he'll extend the same cordiality to me.

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 05:54 PM
I think it is not unreasonable to suggest that maybe bringing that up was a social faux pas, man. To clarify, Asperger's Syndrome is classically not regarded as a learning disability but rather as a part of the broader category of autistic spectrum disorders, in part because of the varied way it manifests, but also because Asperger's rarely impedes an individual's rate of uptake outside of social situations and limited cases. I, on the other hand, do have a learning disability.
Fair enough. I know that several other people I've interacted with online have the same disorder. I wouldn't ever use it to argue that those people are stupid (because most of them are clearly not stupid). I could use it to argue other points, but in general it doesn't really matter.

Edit: Yeah, it wasn't intended to be rude. I am blunt in general though, so that kind of stuff happens. I'm probably just too used to TGD style posting.

Doc Roc
2009-08-20, 05:55 PM
Then why in heaven's name even consider mentioning it?
Even on BG\TGD, I'd be really hesitant to do anything like that.

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 05:56 PM
Then why in heaven's name even consider mentioning it?

Because someone else brought up me calling him an idiot (which I didn't as far as I can tell) and I was searching for a reason they'd be accusing me of calling him one?

Doc Roc
2009-08-20, 05:58 PM
Ah right, it's plane shift and not teleport. How about you cast a different spell since you're not an idiot? Perhaps that one that makes them dance for no save? You're still arguing specifics and not defeating my main point:
{Scrubbed}

Did not sound like a compliment to my old ears.

Gnorman
2009-08-20, 05:58 PM
OK, let me show you some example encounters since you don't get it. Since we're talking about eighth level spells, I'll use encounter level 15s. Here are some example encounters:

1 CR 15 dragon (7th level CL)
6 Bebeliths
2 Glabrezu
A 15th level cleric necromancer + undead horde
A 15t level Wizard
4 Cloud Giants

Let's go one by one:
Dragon: doesn't have plane shift or teleport or any real buffs. You win with maze.
Bebeliths: Two of these things turn on their companions and suddenly it's you+2 bebeliths vs 4 bebeliths. If they survive, you have minions.
Glabrezu: Both fail and you get minions. Or one fails and you win the encounter and get a minion.
Necromancer: You better have a way to kill the cleric quick because tossing down BC probably won't be enough against the cleric. This one's dicey no matter what. Arcane fusion for greater dispel magic+EBT looks handy for an opener here.
Wizard: You're facing yourself. 50% odds either way. Same as the cleric though, arcane fusion looks like a decent option to get out the dispel and a BC in the same round.
Cloud giants: You charm one and the rest you can just kill off. They have crappy will saves so can get killed pretty easily. Don't bother using top level slots against these guys. Just use cloudkill or something.

Make sense now?

I think the problem here is that you assume Charm Monster means "it is now your minion and fights fanatically for you." That's not Charm. That's Dominate. Charm just means that it regards you as friendly. It may still consider its compatriots to be allies, and refuse to attack them. Or it may consider attacking its allies to be a detrimental or even suicidal action and refuse. It won't do anything stupid or out of its alignment or character.

So, yeah, when you factor in the misconception of what the spell is capable of, it's a great tactic. When you adhere to what the spell is actually capable of, it's less than stellar.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-20, 06:02 PM
So ignoring the part where people decided to pull out the craziest most broken ass stuff they could think of:

1) Spells to Power Erudite wording: You missed one. It could mean that a level 20 Erudite gets to pick 11 powers that he wants to use at level 20. And he can't use any different ones until he hits level 21, at which point he can pick a new 11.

2) Greater Arcane Fusion Solid Fog + Dimensional Anchor what exactly does this beat? I don't see a single CR 15 monster that isn't more capable of escaping from that then from a Maze.

Doc Roc
2009-08-20, 06:07 PM
Unless you use, you know, psychic reformation. A psionic power.

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 06:08 PM
I think the problem here is that you assume Charm Monster means "it is now your minion and fights fanatically for you." That's not Charm. That's Dominate. Charm just means that it regards you as friendly. It may still consider its compatriots to be allies, and refuse to attack them. Or it may consider attacking its allies to be a detrimental or even suicidal action and refuse. It won't do anything stupid or out of its alignment or character.

So, yeah, when you factor in your gross misconception of what the spell is capable of, it's a great tactic. When you adhere to what the spell is actually capable of, it's less than stellar.
You haven't read the diplomacy rules, have you? Eliminating the enemy from combat is just as good as killing it. Getting it for a minion after combat is even better. So, they don't automatically fight for you. Big deal. They still don't fight against you, which is the whole point and are still minions once you make a DC 15 diplomacy check after combat. The point is, those are CR = character level encounters. Charm monster takes care of more than your 1/4 share of the encounter. It's a viable spell. Not a great spell, but viable.

Then why in heaven's name even consider mentioning it?
Even on BG\TGD, I'd be really hesitant to do anything like that.
1) BG is "Nice". TGD is *not* "Nice". The two are totally different styles of posting for the norm. Just take a look around (www.tgdmb.com).
2) I was looking for an explanation for the accusation. It's public knowledge and not presented in an insulting way.
3) I wasn't even responding to SF in that post. I was in fact responding to someone else.

Bayar
2009-08-20, 06:15 PM
Someone in this thread never found out why all the cool wizards ban the enchantment school.

Doc Roc
2009-08-20, 06:16 PM
1) BG is "Nice". TGD is *not* "Nice". The two are totally different styles of posting for the norm. Just take a look around (www.tgdmb.com).
2) I was looking for an explanation for the accusation. It's public knowledge and not presented in an insulting way.
3) I wasn't even responding to SF in that post. I was in fact responding to someone else.

I apologize, then, for misconstruing things. I have nothing more to say on this topic that I haven't written about at length on 339.

Gnorman
2009-08-20, 06:16 PM
You haven't read the diplomacy rules, have you? Eliminating the enemy from combat is just as good as killing it. Getting it for a minion after combat is even better. So, they don't automatically fight for you. Big deal. They still don't fight against you, which is the whole point and are still minions once you make a DC 15 diplomacy check after combat. The point is, those are CR = character level encounters. Charm monster takes care of more than your 1/4 share of the encounter. It's a viable spell. Not a great spell, but viable.

Okay, it's a DC 20 check to get it from friendly to helpful. Not that it matters, since Diplomacy as-is is all kinds of simple to break. But your example was "Suddenly it's you + 2 bebiliths vs. 4 bebiliths." Which it is not. It might be 4 instead of 6, and yeah, you've just stopped one third of the encounter from trying to kill you, but it's not a game-winning shut down spell that you seem to want it to be. Especially not with mindblank running rampant at that point. And the +5 bonus for being "threatened."

Dude, you got to simmer down on the hostility. Respond to points logically and calmly, not immediately assume that the person bringing up the argument is ignorant or an idiot in some way. Your first sentence is basically accusing me of blatant ignorance on a simple facet of the game. Ad hominem. Bad choice. Avoid.

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 06:18 PM
Someone in this thread never found out why all the cool wizards ban the enchantment school.
Domain Wizard (transmutation or conjuration) + elven generalist substitution level is generally better than specializing if it's allowed (I do it in most games I play in since it's basically the same power level as focused specialist).

Doc Roc
2009-08-20, 06:20 PM
I've never played in a game where domain wizard was allowed, but elven generalist is superb.

Doc Roc
2009-08-20, 06:21 PM
Dude, you got to simmer down on the hostility. Respond to points logically and calmly, not immediately assume that the person bringing up the argument is ignorant or an idiot in some way. Your first sentence is basically accusing me of blatant ignorance on a simple facet of the game. Ad hominem. Bad choice. Avoid.

While he's not being super polite, I don't think he means it as an ad hominem. It's just a colloquial way of speaking, neh?

Gnorman
2009-08-20, 06:22 PM
While he's not being super polite, I don't think he means it as an ad hominem. It's just a colloquial way of speaking, neh?

Yeah, well, I got no way of gauging intent or context or intonation, so I have to go with the text as is. Seeing as it could be construed as an ad hominem argument, I feel duty-bound to point out that it is a logical fallacy all too common on the internet.

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 06:23 PM
Okay, it's a DC 20 check to get it from friendly to helpful. Not that it matters, since Diplomacy as-is is all kinds of simple to break. But your example was "Suddenly it's you + 2 bebiliths vs. 4 bebiliths." Which it is not. It might be 4 instead of 6, and yeah, you've just stopped one third of the encounter from trying to kill you, but it's not a game-winning shut down spell that you seem to want it to be. Especially not with mindblank running rampant at that point.
Yeah, I was jumping too quickly in my writing. You do agree with my general point that against MM creatures, mass charm is a totally good spell, right? That was kind of my point. Mindblank only runs rampant against classed NPCs (which are generally easier encounters than dragons and outsiders for other reasons) of classes that have it. You're seriously supposed to face a single level 15 wizard with your party of level a level 15 wizard, a level 15, druid, a level 15 cleric, and a level 15 archivist. The fact is, against mook encounters mass charm monster contributes more than most any spell combination that arcane fusion could drop.

Dude, you got to simmer down on the hostility. Respond to points logically and calmly, not immediately assume that the person bringing up the argument is ignorant or an idiot in some way. Your first sentence is basically accusing me of blatant ignorance on a simple facet of the game. Bad choice. Avoid.
I've been trying to be nice, actually. I'm just a pretty harsh person in general though. Most of it isn't personal (I can only think of JaronK off hand that I've called an idiot as opposed to told not to be an idiot).

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 06:24 PM
I've never played in a game where domain wizard was allowed, but elven generalist is superb.
Correct.

While he's not being super polite, I don't think he means it as an ad hominem. It's just a colloquial way of speaking, neh?
And correct again.

Doc Roc
2009-08-20, 06:26 PM
Yeah, well, I got no way of gauging intent or context or intonation, so I have to go with the text as is. Seeing as it could be construed as an ad hominem argument, I feel duty-bound to point out that it is a logical fallacy all too common on the internet.

The first great lesson I learned was that my only duty was no duty, and my only road was no road.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-20, 06:26 PM
The first great lesson I learned was that my only duty was no duty, and my only road was no road.

...is that Clapton?

Gnorman
2009-08-20, 06:27 PM
Yeah, I was jumping too quickly in my writing. You do agree with my general point that against MM creatures, mass charm is a totally good spell, right? That was kind of my point. Mindblank only runs rampant against classed NPCs (which are generally easier encounters than dragons and outsiders for other reasons) of classes that have it. You're seriously supposed to face a single level 15 wizard with your party of level a level 15 wizard, a level 15, druid, a level 15 cleric, and a level 15 archivist. The fact is, against mook encounters mass charm monster contributes more than most any spell combination that arcane fusion could drop.

I've been trying to be nice, actually. I'm just a pretty harsh person in general though. Most of it isn't personal (I can only think of JaronK off hand that I've called an idiot as opposed to told not to be an idiot).

Eh, it doesn't offend me. I'm used to heated arguments, so I don't take umbrage at it. I just want you to be aware of the possible logical pitfalls here. Not that I think you're committing them, but the danger is there.

And yes, it's a very good spell. I never ban enchantment.

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 06:31 PM
OK, so just to get this straight:

Who again still holds that arcane fusion is going to be used in more than half of encounters (the point where it's your primary spell and not just a good spell)? Because my original point was that arcane fusion is decent, but not nearly as good as people make it out to be (what with comments like "Recaster, Wyrm Wizard, Spell to Power Erudite, there's a myriad of ways to get Arcane Fusion without being a Sorcerer. That's why it's broken, because the Devs didn't take those into account when they made the spell.").

Does anyone here think that arcane fusion is broken as opposed to being moderately strong?

Fax Celestis
2009-08-20, 06:33 PM
Does anyone here think that arcane fusion is broken as opposed to being moderately strong?

It is broken if used in a fashion other than it's intent (that is, as a sorcerer-only spell).

Also, you could probably do something funky with RSoP and fusion, but again: not the shin-diggy.

Frosty
2009-08-20, 06:34 PM
Radiant Server of Pelor? :smallconfused:

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 06:36 PM
It is broken if used in a fashion other than it's intent (that is, as a sorcerer-only spell).

Also, you could probably do something funky with RSoP and fusion, but again: not the shin-diggy.
Well, could you give me an example where it breaks the game and not something it is used in conjunction with?

erikun
2009-08-20, 06:48 PM
...Spell to Power Erudite...
Random comment time, but one think I like about psionics is that is doesn't have to worry about the numerous broken spells that exist in magic. Sure, psionic has a few broken tricks itself, but at least it's not as bad...

Which is to say, I dislike the Spell-to-Power variant. It can be good if want a specific spell effect that isn't duplicated by an existing power, but I'd never allow it in a game I run.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-20, 06:50 PM
Where it, specifically, breaks the game? No. Where it is a tool to break the game further? Sure.

Arcane Fusion'd Power Word: Pain + Resilient Sphere is a great way to kill someone slowly, though.

Doc Roc
2009-08-20, 06:56 PM
One thing that makes Arcane fusion hard to talk about is that its always combo-meal fodder. On it's own, it just gives more actions. That's a pretty big just, though, in my extensive experience. I'd say arcane spellsurge is far stronger, but arcane fusion (the fifth level version) ends up on almost every spell list I can manage it on.

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 07:01 PM
Where it, specifically, breaks the game? No. Where it is a tool to break the game further? Sure.
I totally agree with this.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-20, 07:10 PM
I think I would phrase Archer's question as:

Can you point to an instance where casting a 4th level spell and a first level spell instead of a 5th level spell is broken, and where neither the 4th level spell or the 1st level spell is broken (and by extension the level 5 spell).

And again for level 7, 4 vs 8.

For example: Resilient Sphere + Power Word Pain. Is Power word pain really going to kill anything that you are facing at level 9 that a level 5 spell wouldn't? Or that EBT wouldn't?

I mean, things that don't care if you use that combo are: Anything that can teleport, anything that has fast healing, anything that can use actions to heal itself and anything with more enough HD that Power Word Pain does less damage than Empowered Fireball (Or a reached Empowered Combust or a Twinned Magic missile).

I think that last restriction alone invalidates pretty much all CR 8 and up enemies, and why you are spending a level 5 slot to cripple and not kill a CR 7 or lower enemy is beyond me.

Roland St. Jude
2009-08-20, 07:25 PM
1) BG is "Nice". TGD is *not* "Nice". The two are totally different styles of posting for the norm. Just take a look around (www.tgdmb.com).

On that scale, GitP is "Really, really nice." Check it out (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1) and take my word that we moderate it tightly. I believe Tidesinger's point was that he probably wouldn't have made such a point on BG or TGD, thus making pretty much a given not to do so here, GitP being farther up the strongly enforced civility scale.


While he's not being super polite, I don't think he means it as an ad hominem. It's just a colloquial way of speaking, neh?


Yeah, well, I got no way of gauging intent or context or intonation, so I have to go with the text as is....

Me too. Whatever the colloquial way of speaking or forum standard might be elsewhere, here it doesn't include talking down to others, assuming their disagreement stems from failing to read, or similar rudeness.

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please keep it civil in here. This entire thread seems needlessly hostile. Let's move away from that.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-20, 07:51 PM
Yeah, celerity is awesome. We know. BC is good. I've never debated that. Now try to make a point without celerity.

Ok. In a vacuum, Arcane Fusion sucks. It has no effect unless you rely on other spells known. The reason it is a good spell is because it allows you to bypass the action economy easily and combine two spells into a single effect. Even without Celerity or Arcane Spellsurge, Arcane Fusion allows you to churn out 3 spells per turn if you feel like going nova, or if you want to set up a combo that shuts them down. It gets even better when you add in effects like Celerity and Arcane Spellsurge because it can benefit from those spells too (in fact, GAF can be used to cast both of those spells to set up for a massive nova).

In short, it's like 4E's version of Time Stop. You sack a spell slot and effectively get two somewhat limited but very useful Standard actions.



I totally agree. That's why I generally don't cast them except against brute type enemies (giants and such) that don't generally have immunity. Baleful polymorph is actually my SoD of choice because so many fewer things are immune to polymorph effects than death effects or mind effecting.

This I agree on.


Yeah, arcane spellsurge is awesome. I totally just made that point. Now make an example I care about. Saying X effect+ Y effect (where Y effect has been acknowledged to be way too ****ing awesome) = way too ****ing awesome says nothing about X effect. Keep up here, Sinfire. I'm not saying it sucks. I'm saying it isn't as great as you think it is. Make an argument without Y and I'll totally probably agree with you that it's one of those times where it's a good idea to cast it.

It does conserve spell slots, which is the main reason I advocate it so much. I do place more emphasis on it than I should, but that's a part of my personality.


Explain what you mean here. We're talking eighth level slots, so using an eighth level slot for a seventh level spell as opposed to just using an eighth level spell is totally a higher level effect for the same resources.

It's not just a 7th, it's a 7th and a 4th. Normally, you can only use an 8th level slot for a single spell of a lower level. This spell allows you to get two for the price of one, even if the second spell is much more limited (still, 4th level and lower is nothing to sneeze at when a 2nd level spell shuts down one of the most popular CR 20s there is).

Oh, and there's also the fact that those spells don't get unprepared for being used in Arcane Fusion. This means that you still have reserves for later on, if you really need them.


My bad on the wording there:

I meant that it has all the restrictions of discipline powers.

True; they'll never get 9th level powers or Arcane spells before 21st level (possibly later). There's still some great 8th and lower spells out there.


Yeah, we know that erudite is badly written. It's totally more of a headache without any real power increases unless you are a complete rules lawyer (the title of the section and the table say unique powers per day while the text says per day per level, so the text straight up contradicts itself). Erudite actually requires houseruling (picking one or the other) to use and is a whole lot of paperwork (xp costs and such) for no real increase in power over a psion (spell to power is an increase as long as you can make do on the unique powers per day that your DM picks).

Your DM doesn't pick unique powers/day, you do. If he starts throwing encounters at you that are forcing you to use a specific power, use Linked Power to bypass the Unique Power limits and get a Vigor or Astral Construct off at the same time.

The increase comes in known powers. We both know that the reason Sorcerers are tier 2 is because of spells known limits. The Erudite effectively has a spellbook stored inside his brain (and is able to exceed his powers known limit without spending GP on items).


Yeah, Erudite is a badly written class, requires more headache than the class it is based on, and has a lower minimum power level than the class it's based on. It's just a headache of a class is the biggest reason I don't suggest it to people. The fact that it isn't even as good as a psion without the per day per level houseruling is just a side note.

It requires brain power to spare to play, just more than what it takes to play a Wizard or an Artificer (since you need to be very tactical with your powers/day).


Where it, specifically, breaks the game? No. Where it is a tool to break the game further? Sure.

This. This is what I mean by it being a good spell. It's like Mind's Desire: crap on it's own, but played right and with the right cards you are able to kill nearly anyone. It's a piece of the combo that gets better the more options you have, something the Wizard and Erudite have a lot of.


Which is to say, I dislike the Spell-to-Power variant. It can be good if want a specific spell effect that isn't duplicated by an existing power, but I'd never allow it in a game I run.

Kinda the reason no one should allow Planar Shepherds. Good way to screw up a campaign.


To everyone: Archerpwr and I do know each other. I've DM'ed a (short lived) campaign with him and have gone into long discussions with him as a powerful ally. We are just having a minor disagreement, and his posting style can be easily misconstrewed as insults. Even if he were insulting me, I wouldn't take it personally. It would mean I may have seriously overlooked something, and should rethink some of my argument (or he's posting while drunk).

And he is aware of my Asperger's. Mostly everyone who's talked with me at BG is aware. That doesn't need to be brought up in this; it's completely irrelevant to this mini-debate.

HamHam
2009-08-20, 07:54 PM
Abjurant Champion is broken in that the RAI and RAW do not line up. The PrC and the example character both think Mage Armor is an Abjurantion spell when it is actually not.

Thus, you need to rule on whether the bonus AC applies to Mage Armor yourself.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-20, 07:56 PM
Abjurant Champion is broken in that the RAI and RAW do not line up. The PrC and the example character both think Mage Armor is an Abjurantion spell when it is actually not.

Thus, you need to rule on whether the bonus AC applies to Mage Armor yourself.

RAW says no, and WotC's sample NPCs have been known to be flawed someway or another (just start reading through CP or the Bo9S for a couple of famous ones, namely the ILs of every NPC with a PrC in the Bo9S and the Anarchic Initiate in CP).

Mushroom Ninja
2009-08-20, 07:57 PM
Thus, you need to rule on whether the bonus AC applies to Mage Armor yourself.

I've found the best way to do this is to ignore Mage Armor and just use luminous armor.

expirement10K14
2009-08-20, 07:58 PM
RAW says no, and WotC's sample NPCs have been known to be flawed someway or another (just start reading through CP or the Bo9S for a couple of famous ones, namely the ILs of every NPC with a PrC in the Bo9S and the Anarchic Initiate in CP).

The ability says all abjuration spells granting an AC bonus, and uses mage armor as an example though. All in all, complete mage is a very fair book. Nothing too powerful. Although, it is built for casters which are inherently overpowered...

Ultimate Magus can be very powerful in a few situations, though it is normally a weak class because it loses casting levels (faces same problem as most dual-caster PrC's).

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-20, 08:01 PM
The ability says all abjuration spells granting an AC bonus, and uses mage armor as an example though. All in all, complete mage is a very fair book. Nothing too powerful. Although, it is built for casters which are inherently overpowered...

Ultimate Magus can be very powerful in a few situations, though it is normally a weak class because it loses casting levels (faces same problem as most dual-caster PrC's).

The Abjurant Champion would be an example of Critical Research Failure. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CriticalResearchFailure) It would have taken 3 minutes to look the spell up by hand, 1 if they used the SRD and Search function.

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 08:06 PM
Sinfire, if you don't mind I'll cut away from the point by point to get back to my central point again here as Kelpstrand so aptly divined:

Can you point to an instance where casting a 4th level spell and a first level spell instead of a 5th level spell is broken, and where neither the 4th level spell or the 1st level spell is broken (and by extension the level 5 spell)?

If you can give me that answer, then Arcane Fusion is as you stated, broken. If you cannot, then it is as I have stated, simply good. It might not even be the best option (take a look at my comparisons earlier with mass charm monster and maze for examples of what I'm referencing here). Remember, I'm not stating that arcane fusion is a bad spell. I'm simply stating that in itself, it isn't as good as people such as yourself make it out to be.

As for Erudites, that's a bit off topic and generally you've seen me argue that point effectively. I'm just going to say that Erudite is another of those things that is overpraised (and outright weak without some favorable things that aren't guaranteed), but generally it's so much of a headache that I would be loathe to suggest someone play it. I mean, there's a reason I think beguiler is a better class than sorcerer; it gives enough power to contribute and is less of a hassle to play. It's not stronger at peak. It's just a better class (as in, design).

As for insults and such, I'll keep that in mind, Roland. Sinfire is correct in that I generally just debate in such a way with no ill intent.

Set
2009-08-20, 08:07 PM
Abjurant Champion is broken in that the RAI and RAW do not line up. The PrC and the example character both think Mage Armor is an Abjurantion spell when it is actually not.

Thus, you need to rule on whether the bonus AC applies to Mage Armor yourself.

Easy enough to house rule that the Abjurant Champion treats Mage Armor as an Abjuration spell, even if it isn't.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-20, 08:11 PM
Sinfire, if you don't mind I'll cut away from the point by point to get back to my central point again here as Kelpstrand so aptly divined:

Can you point to an instance where casting a 4th level spell and a first level spell instead of a 5th level spell is broken, and where neither the 4th level spell or the 1st level spell is broken (and by extension the level 5 spell)?

If you can give me that answer, then Arcane Fusion is as you stated, broken. If you cannot, then it is as I have stated, simply good. It might not even be the best option (take a look at my comparisons earlier with mass charm monster and maze for examples of what I'm referencing here). Remember, I'm not stating that arcane fusion is a bad spell. I'm simply stating that in itself, it isn't as good as people such as yourself make it out to be.

As for Erudites, that's a bit off topic and generally you've seen me argue that point effectively. I'm just going to say that Erudite is another of those things that is overpraised (and outright weak without some favorable things that aren't guaranteed), but generally it's so much of a headache that I would be loathe to suggest someone play it. I mean, there's a reason I think beguiler is a better class than sorcerer; it gives enough power to contribute and is less of a hassle to play. It's not stronger at peak. It's just a better class (as in, design).

As for insults and such, I'll keep that in mind, Roland. Sinfire is correct in that I generally just debate in such a way with no ill intent.

I'll concede then. The best I can do is Orb of Electricity and Grease against an Iron Golem, but Solid Fog does nearly the exact same thing, as does Forcecage (arguably better than Solid Fog because of Duration and the fact that it's air-tight if you want it to be).

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 08:16 PM
I'll concede then. The best I can do is Orb of Electricity and Grease against an Iron Golem, but Solid Fog does nearly the exact same thing, as does Forcecage (arguably better than Solid Fog because of Duration and the fact that it's air-tight if you want it to be).

Thank you. At another time I'll raise similar questions about erurides over psions, sorcerers over beguilers/dread necromancers, and a couple other things that I think you generally overrate. But right now, I have to pack for college.

HamHam
2009-08-20, 08:23 PM
Arcane Fusion can certainly be made broken. IIRC, you can use it with Arcane Spellsurge to blast off several dozen Enervations in a single round.

Voice of Reason
2009-08-20, 08:24 PM
Abjurant Champion is broken in that the RAI and RAW do not line up. The PrC and the example character both think Mage Armor is an Abjurantion spell when it is actually not.

Thus, you need to rule on whether the bonus AC applies to Mage Armor yourself.

There is indeed a misprint between the examples given and the mechanics of the Abjurant Champion's ability. Mage armor and Greater Mage Armor are not effected by the Abjurant Champion's ability, however, and all mention of Mage Armor was removed from the class with an errata:

Wizards.com errata main page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata)

The errata states: "Under the abjurant armor ability, remove mention of 'mage armor' at the end of the paragraph. The abjurant armor ability does not affect mage armor, but the spell is still useful to an abjurant champion."

Furthermore, I agree that Arcane Fusion is not broken in itself; the combos that you can pull with it are broken. The problem is not the power level of the spell itself, necessarily, it is with the diverse number of spells and sourcebooks that combine in powerful and unpredictable ways. Much like how a singular feat can be perfectly balanced, until placed together with a feat or class power from a completely different source.

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 08:27 PM
Arcane Fusion can certainly be made broken. IIRC, you can use it with Arcane Spellsurge to blast off several dozen Enervations in a single round.

You can do that without arcane fusion. I had a 15th level incantatrix wizard that wasn't completely built around ennervation drop around 26 negative levels on an enemy in a single round once without touching arcane fusion. I can't for the life of me remember how, but I'm sure it used split, empower, and twin or whatever it is.

HamHam
2009-08-20, 08:29 PM
You can do that without arcane fusion. I had a 15th level incantatrix wizard that wasn't completely built around ennervation drop around 26 negative levels on an enemy in a single round once without touching arcane fusion. I can't for the life of me remember how, but I'm sure it used split, empower, and twin or whatever it is.

Incantrix is broken.

Voice of Reason
2009-08-20, 08:33 PM
Incantrix is broken.

I have never gotten to see more than two levels of Incantrix, but from everything I've heard of it (mainly that it can lower the cost of metamagic) I'd have to agree, although I admit freely that all I know of the class is hearsay, and am willing to be persuaded the other way.

sofawall
2009-08-20, 08:38 PM
1d4. Maximize for 4. Split for 8. Twin for 16. Empower for (1d4/2)*4, or an average of 5. 21 negative levels, on average.

Toss in Quicken and Repeat, bam, two round total of 126 negative levels for 4 spell slots. You may need Arcane Thesis for the Quicken and Repeat, though.

EDIT: You can make spellcraft checks to ignore metamagic spell level adjustment. Custom items, Item Familiars, max ranks and Int-focus make it trivial to put every useful metamagic on your spell and still have it take up the normal spell slot.

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 08:39 PM
Incantrix is broken.

I would argue that it's way to fricken good (smashes through encounters too easily rather than broken which I view as making the game completely unplayable). But yeah, incantatrix is mean stuff.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-20, 08:56 PM
1) Curse you VoR, I was totally going to bring up the errata after so many "it's broken"s

2) Incantatrix is totally broken because of the level 3 and 4 abilities, the level 10 ability is really fine at level 10, and it's Arcane Thesis that's the problem with evil meta concoctions.

The level 3 and 4 in case any one asks: Apply any metamagic you know (like persist) to an ongoing spells (IE cast a spell, persist it) with a spellcraft check. It's a relatively high one, but doable without even any competence items, and since you can technically buy a +30 competence item... whatever.

The level 4 allows you to do the same thing to things other people are casting, IE Tell your Cleric buddy to cast reached some really good buff (Ironguard?). Use your ability to Chain it across the party. Use your other ability to Persist it (since it's one spell, that Persists the whole thing on everyone). You can even do this to ninth level spells by the time you can cast them.

3) Enervations with Arcane Fusion. A level 16 Sorcerer with Arcane Fusion or level 16 Wyrm Wizard (WW loses a CL like recaster right?) can cast GAF for Arcane Fusion + Enervation with Arcane Fusion being Enervation + True Strike or True casting.

Ignoring the minor benefit of True Strike or True casting (really a nice part of Arcane Fusion, but not appreciably increasing negative levels except against certain foes) That's 2d4 negative levels. A Split Rayed Enervation is a 6th level slot, and you just spent an 8th level slot to do that plus quickened True Strike.

Now, admittedly there are all sorts of things you can do like Repeating Arcane Fusions using Arcane Thesis, but Arcane Thesis Enervation can do similar things, and honestly, 21 negative levels or 40 negative levels isn't a big difference. Though Repeating Arcane Fusion does get around the only real limitation to Repeating.

See how without adding other things that are already bad (Arcane Thesis) Arcane Fusion isn't really that impressive.

Yes, it totally squares your power level. But in this case, anything you would do in an actual game has a value of .9-1.1, and your squaring is not doing enough to actually break anything. Yes if you start at 10 (Arcane Thesis + other meta reducers + +0 increasing metas + sanctum spell) it's much better. Also, you try to DM for a game at 10, it's hard freaking work.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-20, 11:17 PM
Arcane Fusion issue:
Takes one 5th level slot and a Standard action to cast one 4th and one 1st level spell in one turn. Normally to do that, you'd need a feat(Quicken Spell), spend a Standard and a Swift action, and burn a 4th and a 5th level spell slot. That's a considerable boost, as it saves you moderately good spell slot, a feat, and leaves you with your Swift/immediate actions. No, it doesn't make the game unplayable, but almost every build allowed to will take it, which is a sign of an imbalance.

Voice of Reason
2009-08-20, 11:32 PM
Well, I like to stay on top of the errata as much as I can, despite the fact that it usually end up "nerfing" (read: fixing) some of my favorite tricks. Speaking of which, there seems to be a lot of comments going around about applying metamagic feats to Arcane Fusion and Greater Arcane Fusion, and I must say that now I am confused.

Perhaps I am wrong, but some people here seem to think that you can apply things such as the Maximize and Empower spell feats to the Arcane Fusion, and this will affect all spells cast from the fusion; this is not so. Under the errata, Wizards clarified that:

"If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for Arcane Fusion."

In other words, if you want your level 7/4/1 spells affected by metamagic, you have to apply them to each individual spell, calculate their new spell level, and use that as the qualification of whether or not they can be cast under Arcane Fusion (as a 7th/4th/1st level spell). Of course, a few metamagic-reducing abilities later, and it doesn't make much of a difference (exept that you need a few more Arcane Thesis feats lying around if you're looking for +0).

However, Kelpstrand recently said something that made me realize that Arcane Fusion is in itself, also a spell, and metamagic can be applied to it. :smalleek: (I wish I had my book on me to be 100% before moving forward) Therefore, on a Greater Arcane Fusion, you could apply the repeating and twinned spell feats, causing the spell to go off twice, and if you applied the whole line of feats to each spell you were casting, each of those would be twinned and repeatable too. Let's think about this then:

EDIT: NEVERMIND! My brain hurts...I was going to calculate it all out for you all, step by step, but when it came to the part where I had to draw a diagram (a diagram!) just to keep my thoughts in order (and it still didn't help!) I'm giving up; you can all do that calculations yourself if you want. I'm just gonna lay it nice and easy:

Ok, starting slowly, you cast a Quickened, Rapid, Twinned, Repeat Greater Arcane Fusion. Apply at least Twinned and Repeat to all the spells you cast below it. Watch this:

1) Greater Arcane Fusion is twinned, you now have two of the same spell.
2) Every spell inside of the GAF is twinned as well, including the Arcane Fusion you're going to use to grab a 4th and 1st level spell. Now you've got two greater arcane fusions, each with 2 4th level spells and two arcane fusions. All the spells in each arcane fusion are doubled as well via twin. I'll tell you straight out that you've now cast 20 non-fusion spells, if my math is right, as a quickened spell.
3) Do the same thing, but with your standard action. That's 20 more spells. You've now cast 40 spells in a round; that's gotta be pretty close to a record for something that's not an endless loop.

Now, it's turn two. Time to repeat all your spells (my brain hurts already...:smallfrown:)

1) Greater Arcane Fusion #1. Following the logic above, this is good for 20 spells.
2) Twinned copy of Greater Arcane Fusion. Good for 20 more spells.
3) Twinned copy the 4 Arcane Fusions cast last round. Good for 6 spells each for 16 more spells.
4) Twinned copy of every non-fusion spell you cast last round under your GAF spells. Good for 20 more spells.
5) Greater Arcane Fusion #2. Good for 20 spells.
6) Twinned copy of Greater Arcane Fusion. Good for 20 spells.
7) Twinned copy of the 4 arcane fusions cast last round from those GAFs. Good for 16 more spells.
8) Twinned copy of every non-fusion spell you cast last round under your GAF spells (#2 batch). Good for 20 more spells.

This means that, from the two spells you cast last round, you've just fired off 160 spells and you haven't even acted yet. May all that is holy forbid those to have been Chained spells, or that'd have been up to 20 extra targets x number of spells = up to 3360 secondary targets. Keep in mind that you have yet to act. If you feel like it, throw the combo out there again for another 40 spells. So, 200 spells cast that round, and I'm not counting the fusion spells themselves.

But wait, there's more! The fusion spell may no longer repeat, but each spell under every fusion spell that was just repeated is a twinned, repeat spell. Which means that every spell under every fusion that was repeated last round is also repeated on top of what you just did this round. Let's dare to look:

If you used the same combo last turn as you did during your first turn, then last turns actions will have netted you the same 160 spells. Now add on all those floating repeats. Simply take the Greater Arcane Fusions out of the puzzle. We're looking at:

1) Twinned copy the 4 Arcane Fusions cast last round. Good for 4 spells each for 16 more spells.
2) Twinned copy of every non-fusion spell you cast last round under your AF spells. Good for 20 more spells.
3) Twinned copy of the 4 arcane fusions cast last round from those GAFs. Good for 16 more spells.
4) Twinned copy of every non-fusion spell you cast last round under your AF spells (#2 batch). Good for 20 more spells.

Add that up for an additional 72 more spells. Thats 232 spells before you've even acted. It even goes a step further. Lets pretend that you repeat the combo one more time (pretend you've got the spell slots for it, and the enemy isn't already long-past obliterated). Thats:

160 from your last round. 72 from the round before that. And then add on the third stage of repeats from underneath your Arcane Fusions:

1) Repeat every spell under your 4 Arcane Fusions last turn. Good for 8 more spells.
2) Repeat every spell under your 4 Arcane Fusions (batch two) last turn. Good for 8 more spells.

That's 16 more to add in, for a grand total of 248 spells cast before you've even acted. I believe that if I slice the respective numbers in half, I can determine the amount of damage even a single likewise-treated Greater Arcane Fusion can do:

20 spells at round one.
80 spells at round two.
36 spells at round three
8 spells at round four.

So, over four rounds, you've managed to cast 144 spells for the price of one. That is, assuming my math is correct, which it very likely isn't, given that I'm tired and possibly wrong about how some aspects of the combo interact with each other (especially the use of Repeat Spell). However, should nobody be able to disprove it by RAW, I think we've just achieved a new level of broken spellcasting.

P.S. Now, try calculating how much damage that would do if you were to use a ray spell and added split ray to the combo, effectively doubling again your "spells?" Throw on chain spell; may the 3.5 gods have mercy on your soul. Add Fell Drain for one negative level to each target hit...may Pun-Pun overlook your insolence.

EDIT: P.P.S. Even if I'm wrong about the way Repeat Spell works, by twinning and repeating Greater Arcane Fusion, you still get the full benefits of combat rounds one and two as I listed them.

tyckspoon
2009-08-20, 11:40 PM
So, over four rounds, you've managed to cast 144 spells for the price of one. That is, assuming my math is correct, which it very likely isn't, given that I'm tired and possibly wrong about how some aspects of the combo interact with each other (especially the use of Repeat Spell). However, should nobody be able to disprove it by RAW, I think we've just achieved a new level of broken spellcasting.


Well, there's the problem that Repeat Spell isn't really all that useful, since it repeats the spell *exactly* one round later- if you set up a ray burst with this thing, for example, you'll probably kill your target with the first casting and then just throw a bunch more death rays through the same spot in the next four rounds. The other problem is affording all those metamagic adjustments; Arcane Thesis has to be taken for every spell individually, and then it needs a bunch of +0 metamagics to help out (although you'd probably just take Easy Metamagic: Twin and Practical Metamagic: Twin for this one.) You're going to be pretty heavily feat-starved, even with Incantatrix's pile of bonus feats.

Voice of Reason
2009-08-20, 11:45 PM
Well, there's the problem that Repeat Spell isn't really all that useful, since it repeats the spell *exactly* one round later- if you set up a ray burst with this thing, for example, you'll probably kill your target with the first casting and then just throw a bunch more death rays through the same spot in the next four rounds. The other problem is affording all those metamagic adjustments; Arcane Thesis has to be taken for every spell individually, and then it needs a bunch of +0 metamagics to help out (although you'd probably just take Easy Metamagic: Twin and Practical Metamagic: Twin for this one.) You're going to be pretty heavily feat-starved, even with Incantatrix's pile of bonus feats.

Yes, I was aware of that. Most metamagic builds are pretty much the metamagics themselves and little else, and with likely 16 or more levels under you belt before this combo comes into play, I was hoping a few bonus feats could be picked up along the way, along with the usual two flaws, to keep up the pace.

EDIT: I also agree that the target(s) will probably be soon dead anyways, but if they die prematurely, I would consider that a bonus actually. Your leftover spells are "wasted," but you've still managed to kill you enemy straight-up with a single spell, quite possibly quickened (and likely every one of his allies if you chain spell it).

Kelpstrand
2009-08-20, 11:52 PM
Yeah, my specific comment about Arcane Fusion is that it gets around the repeat issue.

Because the actual effect of Arcane Fusion is to cast two spells, but those two spells are not part of the repeat.

So for example Repeated Arcane Fusion:
4th level: Orb of Fire
1st level: True Strike
Hypothetically, you kill the target.
Repeating part: Arcane Fusion:
4th level: Orb of Fire
1st level: True Strike.

The thing is, Orb of Fire and True strike are being cast separately from the repeat, so their targets can change.

This doesn't help if you have a Repeating Orb of Fire instead of a regular one, since the Repeating part of an Orb of Fire is still aimed at the same target.

EDIT: Also Tide, the whole reason I asked for a specific example is precisely because quickened 1st level spells are something no one actually does because they suck. People rarely quicken outside of meta reducers, so it's actually just as likely that your "I use a single 5th level slot to cast a 4th and first level spell" is compared against "I use a 5th level slots to cast a 5th level spell." And that's the point. If it's so broken, surely someone can bring up an example somewhere of someone using a 1st and 4th level slot that is just plain better than a 5th level slot.

deuxhero
2009-08-20, 11:55 PM
Easy enough to house rule that the Abjurant Champion treats Mage Armor as an Abjuration spell, even if it isn't.
And even easier to say the primary defensive spell in the game belongs in the school with the defense spells in the first place.

Voice of Reason
2009-08-21, 12:09 AM
Yeah, my specific comment about Arcane Fusion is that it gets around the repeat issue.

Because the actual effect of Arcane Fusion is to cast two spells, but those two spells are not part of the repeat.

So for example Repeated Arcane Fusion:
4th level: Orb of Fire
1st level: True Strike
Hypothetically, you kill the target.
Repeating part: Arcane Fusion:
4th level: Orb of Fire
1st level: True Strike.


I believe I understand what you're saying, but I do not see a contradiction there; I need a clarification. Your example is for a Repeated Arcane Fusion with Orb of Fire and True Strike, unmodified. My example above is slightly different, where you are casting a repeated everything.

So for example Repeated Arcane Fusion:
4th level: Repeated Orb of Fire
1st level: Repeated True Strike
Hypothetically, you kill the target.
Repeating part: 1)Repeated Arcane Fusion:
4th level: Orb of Fire
1st level: True Strike.
2) Repeated Orb of Fire
3) Repeated True Stike

Where each of the Reapeated tags is added on seperately to each spell in the list. Could you clarify, perhaps, your stance?

Doc Roc
2009-08-21, 12:34 AM
It's true. Quickening them is worthless. Being able to assay, or truestrike as you orb is sort of a big deal. Likewise with setting up buffs. Arcane fusion is powerful not as a single factor, but as a uniquely excellent opportunity to obviate costs in time and adjusted spell levels. There's some discussion of it over at gleemax or bg that would be enlightening in this regard. I've used it extensively in actual practice, and it really is very powerful. It's not game-breaking on its own, sure, but it is excellent. And excellent, universal, elegant, and easy are a powerful combination.

Interestingly, there are quite a few spells printed at level one on alternative lists that are superb. A good example is Dark Bolt, available as a first level spell from Teflammar shadowlord.

The issue is: How many examples do you want? Arcane fusion is an enabler, a catalyst akin to lotus petal in magic. Crappy, wasteful, and entirely excellent in the right builds.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-21, 12:55 AM
1) VoR: I was not contradicting much of anything, merely pointing out that a repeating Orb of Fire is not very good, because people move, and that a Repeating Arcane Fusion allows you to target the Orb of Fire at a different place/person.


It's true. Quickening them is worthless. Being able to assay, or truestrike as you orb is sort of a big deal. Likewise with setting up buffs. Arcane fusion is powerful not as a single factor, but as a uniquely excellent opportunity to obviate costs in time and adjusted spell levels. There's some discussion of it over at gleemax or bg that would be enlightening in this regard. I've used it extensively in actual practice, and it really is very powerful. It's not game-breaking on its own, sure, but it is excellent. And excellent, universal, elegant, and easy are a powerful combination.

Interestingly, there are quite a few spells printed at level one on alternative lists that are superb. A good example is Dark Bolt, available as a first level spell from Teflammar shadowlord.

The issue is: How many examples do you want? Arcane fusion is an enabler, a catalyst akin to lotus petal in magic. Crappy, wasteful, and entirely excellent in the right builds.

I have read lots of discussion on Arcane Fusion, I have also played with it myself. It's also not that powerful. It's a good spell. It may even be a great spell. It is well placed in that 4th level spells are some of the best. It is not any better a 5th level spell than wall of Force or Wall of Stone.

Also, you can't use Arcane Fusion to cast from other lists, and you can't even use Arcane Fusion at all as an Erudite or Wizard, but that's neither here nor there.

Saph
2009-08-21, 03:59 AM
The thing is, if used on its own, by a sorcerer, like it's meant to be, Arcane Fusion is a fairly balanced spell, IMO. Powerful, but not broken.

Metamagic way: Cast one 5th-level spell and one quickened 1st-level spell. Spend two 5th-level spell slots.
Arcane Fusion way: Cast one 4th-level spell and one 1st-level spell. Spend one 5th-level spell slot.

Using Arcane Fusion instead of Quicken/Rapid Metamagic costs you slightly in power (a 4th-level spell instead of a 5th), but spends only one spell slot instead of two, which makes it quite efficient. The great advantage of it is that it doesn't consume your swift action, and swift/immediate actions are invaluable at mid- to high-levels.

The big problem with the Arcane Fusion line for sorcerers is that they have to spend one of their precious spells known on it, a resource they're very short on. That's the major limiting factor.

Now once you start combining it with crazy metamagic/spell level tricks or giving it to other classes, then sure, you can break it. But I think it's nice that sorcerers get a handful of good spells that wizards, etc. don't - it diversifies the class a bit. Saying that sorcerers shouldn't be allowed to use it because other classes might find a way to grab it off them is a bit unfair. I'd just say that it's sorcerer-only and leave it at that.

- Saph

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-21, 08:07 AM
I believe I understand what you're saying, but I do not see a contradiction there; I need a clarification. Your example is for a Repeated Arcane Fusion with Orb of Fire and True Strike, unmodified. My example above is slightly different, where you are casting a repeated everything.

So for example Repeated Arcane Fusion:
4th level: Repeated Orb of Fire
1st level: Repeated True Strike
Hypothetically, you kill the target.
Repeating part: 1)Repeated Arcane Fusion:
4th level: Orb of Fire
1st level: True Strike.
2) Repeated Orb of Fire
3) Repeated True Stike

Where each of the Reapeated tags is added on seperately to each spell in the list. Could you clarify, perhaps, your stance?

Repeat Spell only applies to the spell you apply it to, in this case Arcane Fusion. Since it is applied to that spell and that spell alone you are free to choose what spells you wish to cast with the repeat copy. If this means recasting the same two spells then you get the same two spells (but can choose new targets).

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-21, 01:33 PM
The thing is, if used on its own, by a sorcerer, like it's meant to be, Arcane Fusion is a fairly balanced spell, IMO. Powerful, but not broken.

Metamagic way: Cast one 5th-level spell and one quickened 1st-level spell. Spend two 5th-level spell slots.
Arcane Fusion way: Cast one 4th-level spell and one 1st-level spell. Spend one 5th-level spell slot.

Using Arcane Fusion instead of Quicken/Rapid Metamagic costs you slightly in power (a 4th-level spell instead of a 5th), but spends only one spell slot instead of two, which makes it quite efficient. The great advantage of it is that it doesn't consume your swift action, and swift/immediate actions are invaluable at mid- to high-levels.

The big problem with the Arcane Fusion line for sorcerers is that they have to spend one of their precious spells known on it, a resource they're very short on. That's the major limiting factor. The alternative, however, actually costs 2 feats(Quicken Spell and Rapid Metamagic), as well as burning an extra 5th level slot. Feats are even rarer than Spells Known.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-21, 03:11 PM
The alternative, however, actually costs 2 feats(Quicken Spell and Rapid Metamagic), as well as burning an extra 5th level slot. Feats are even rarer than Spells Known.

Considering Sorcerers got royally shafted when it comes to metamagic, I'd say they deserve it.


No, it doesn't make the game unplayable, but almost every build allowed to will take it, which is a sign of an imbalance.

How do you feel about Magic Missile? :smallwink:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-21, 03:15 PM
How do you feel about Magic Missile? :smallwink:Considering I have never taken it on any caster, pretty good. :smallwink:

Myrmex
2009-08-21, 03:57 PM
Recaster, Wyrm Wizard, Spell to Power Erudite, there's a myriad of ways to get Arcane Fusion without being a Sorcerer. That's why it's broken, because the Devs didn't take those into account when they made the spell.

Would Arcane Fusion actually help a manifester, though?

Voice of Reason
2009-08-21, 04:11 PM
Considering I have never taken it on any caster, pretty good. :smallwink:

What about polymorph? :smallwink:

Oh wait, bad example :smalltongue:

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-21, 04:12 PM
Would Arcane Fusion actually help a manifester, though?

Assuming Transparency is in full effect (instead of limited or no Trans), yes. Otherwise, the Erudite just has to learn spells a Sorcerer could learn (including spells learned through Arcane Disciple or similar effects).

Myrmex
2009-08-21, 04:19 PM
Assuming Transparency is in full effect (instead of limited or no Trans), yes. Otherwise, the Erudite just has to learn spells a Sorcerer could learn (including spells learned through Arcane Disciple or similar effects).

So in that case you could UMD a wand of Assay Spell Resistance for your powers as a manifester?

Saph
2009-08-21, 04:23 PM
The alternative, however, actually costs 2 feats(Quicken Spell and Rapid Metamagic), as well as burning an extra 5th level slot. Feats are even rarer than Spells Known.

Yeah, but you can use those two feats for a lot of other things. Most Sorcerers who are able will be taking Rapid Metamagic or the ACF equivalent anyway.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-21, 04:25 PM
So in that case you could UMD a wand of Assay Spell Resistance for your powers as a manifester?

Absolutely. But you couldn't UPD it.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-21, 04:32 PM
So in that case you could UMD a wand of Assay Spell Resistance for your powers as a manifester?

Assuming full Transparency, any effect that affects spells affects powers equally.

Salvonus
2009-08-21, 06:48 PM
As for their Unique Powers/Day, there's been some rereading:

The example text below that part was added by Bruce Cordell, and contradicts the text directly above it. This means there's 3 possible ways to interpret it:

1) As Cordell and many others believe, where a 20th level Erudite is only capable of manifesting 11 unique powers/day (which contradicts the text in favor of Cordell's editing error).

2) As the text says, and probably intended by Paizo (the class was printed in Dragon, after all). In this case, a 20th level Erudite is capable of manifesting 11 unique powers/power level (1st through 9th)/day. This is how the original Dragon Magazine version was written, as it didn't include Cordell's addendum that contradicts the text.

3) As written completely, where the 20th level Erudite is capable of manifesting 11 unique powers/class level (subtle difference here, but that's one possible interpretation)/day. Arguably broken, may or may not be intended, but it's what the text says.

It seems like the most sensible guess for the RAI is #1. Under #2, you have more effective powers known than a Psion by Level 7, and, by Level 20, you don't even have enough pp (barring shenanigans) to manifest that many unique powers. That would mean that there is basically no reason to ever play a Psion if you're starting past Level 7, which seems a tad ridiculous. #3 requires some pretty weird reading to pull off - the key for me is that it says "of each level", rather than "each level".

Bah. Complete Psionic is, quite possibly, the worst book that WotC put out. The only decent PrC* was released as a free excerpt, and the best feat of the book was a straight port of Practised Spellcaster.

* The Anarchic Initiate is terribly edited and flies in the face of the standard Psi-PrC loss of ML as a balancing factor.

Doc Roc
2009-08-21, 07:04 PM
That's actually not true. The ardent is one of the coolest classes out there, period, and well positioned as a tier two class with a lot of fun tricks.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-21, 08:13 PM
That's actually not true. The ardent is one of the coolest classes out there, period, and well positioned as a tier two class with a lot of fun tricks.

Well except that it's positioned in Tier 3 for basically no reason. But... Yeah.

EDIT: I take that back, he deleted it from the Tier system all together. I guess he didn't want evidence of admitting he was wrong about something left behind.

(He tentatively ranked it as Tier 4, then people tore him up, he defended his justification passionately before finally admitting he never even gave more than a cursory glance, upgraded to tier 3 and now it's freaking gone.)

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-21, 08:17 PM
Well except that it's positioned in Tier 3 for basically no reason. But... Yeah.

Tier 2. They have access to mostly everything that makes the Psion Tier 2, save for Disciplines (and they can get those if they want them through a Web Enhancement).

Fax Celestis
2009-08-21, 08:19 PM
They're placed in Tier 3 because they're in CPsi. :smallwink:

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-21, 08:22 PM
They're placed in Tier 3 because they're in CPsi. :smallwink:

Makes sense.


Oh! I forgot that they learn their powers based on their Manifester Level, not class level. This means boosting your ML gets you powers sooner than you should get them. So yeah.

Doc Roc
2009-08-21, 08:25 PM
And that's why I said they were tier two. :: malevolent grin ::
As for the Tier system, I carry my own around in my head. My head is a strange place.

I'd like to submit Ultimate Magus as something broken from Comp mage, not because it is too good, but rather because in conjunction with various interpretations of other feats and class features, it can produce extremely bizarre situation. So here I suggest that it isn't bah-rooooken, it's just broken. It's great class, but not the way they intended it to be.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-21, 08:33 PM
I'd like to submit Ultimate Magus as something broken from Comp mage, not because it is too good, but rather because in conjunction with various interpretations of other feats and class features, it can produce extremely bizarre situation. So here I suggest that it isn't bah-rooooken, it's just broken. It's great class, but not the way they intended it to be.

Case in point: the spellthief theurge.

Doc Roc
2009-08-21, 08:35 PM
There's probably seven different double-nine builds for Ultimate Magus, another fifteen good ones for 9ths/8ths. None of these builds function in a fashion that remotely resembles what the fluff seems to intend. Master Spellthief is strongly debated, but things like Mystic Fire Knight, Sublime Chord Trickery, rebuilding abuse, and many such things lead to really exotic stuff. I personally think it's awesome because I like challenging build-arounds, but your mileage will vary from mine tremendously.

My vote for worst book goes to Tome of Magic. You all know why.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-21, 08:42 PM
There's probably seven different double-nine builds for Ultimate Magus, another fifteen good ones for 9ths/8ths. None of these builds function in a fashion that remotely resembles what the fluff seems to intend. Master Spellthief is strongly debated, but things like Mystic Fire Knight, Sublime Chord Trickery, rebuilding abuse, and many such things lead to really exotic stuff. I personally think it's awesome because I like challenging build-arounds, but your mileage will vary from mine tremendously.

My vote for worst book goes to Tome of Magic. You all know why.

Really? Truenamer killed it that bad for you?

Binder is amazing (and Epic Binders (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080407a) are NUTS), and Shadowcasters are good if you know what you're doing (and/or use Ari Marmell's fix).

Doc Roc
2009-08-21, 08:43 PM
Binders are great. Their shadow magic take is strictly less cool than the existing shadowcraft mage or shadow weave stuff.
True namers are.....a disgusting and absolute failure of design, achievable only by what must be madness.

Pray tell, whence and where does an epic true namer go?
I can't tell you, I can't tell you, I can't tell you.
Because only when the stars are right will we know.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-21, 08:49 PM
Their shadow magic take is strictly less cool than the existing shadowcraft mage or shadow weave stuff.

Matter of opinion. I love me some shadowcasters, myself, especially when they go into the Shadow Adept PrC.

HamHam
2009-08-21, 08:52 PM
I'd like to submit Ultimate Magus as something broken from Comp mage, not because it is too good, but rather because in conjunction with various interpretations of other feats and class features, it can produce extremely bizarre situation. So here I suggest that it isn't bah-rooooken, it's just broken. It's great class, but not the way they intended it to be.

It seems to me that all dual progression classes have the same issues with strange entries. UM probably only seems worse because it's Arcane/Arcane.

Though the class features like Augmented Casting and the straight up CL increases are really really good.

Doc Roc
2009-08-21, 08:54 PM
Right, the issue is that it has class features, making it worthwhile to a whole 'nother set of builds beyond just the normal early entry ones. Add to that the fact that its requirements are..... Lax at best, and bizarre at worst, mix in the fact that it isn't well-defined what is or isn't true spontaneous casting....

And you have a recipe for grief.

Salvonus
2009-08-21, 11:01 PM
Right, sorry, the Ardent is certainly quite decent. One good feat, one good PrC, and one good base class, the former two of which could be easily enjoyed without having purchased the book. :smallwink:

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-21, 11:12 PM
Right, sorry, the Ardent is certainly quite decent. One good feat, one good PrC, and one good base class, the former two of which could be easily enjoyed without having purchased the book. :smallwink:

And one cataclysmicly abysmal reprinted.