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Jarazix
2009-08-20, 08:10 AM
Ok have 3 gish's running around in my head. I play in pathfinder rule set ( though all 3.5 books allowed ) Important things to consider, pathfinder wizards get d6hd, and I might be able to get hime to convert the hd up on prestige classes. I am also an outsider so I already get Martial Weapon Proficiency ( tiefling )

1. Wizard 5 /Eldritch Knight 10/Abjurant Champion 5

20th level

5Wiz 10EK 5AC

5d6+15d10=186

+17BAB 19CL

2. Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5

20th Level

6Wiz 9Swiftblade 5AC

6d6+9d6+5d10=140

+17BAB 17CL

3. Warblade 1/Wizard 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 9/Abjurant Champion 4

Don't have tome of battle on me so I can't do any figures on this one. Book is at home.

Jarazix
2009-08-20, 09:20 AM
Oh the Party makeup is this

Me
Wizard
Cleric
Barbarian
Druid
Dread Necromancer
Rogue

Eldariel
2009-08-20, 09:24 AM
All of those are fine (the JPM gets +17 BAB and 17th level casting too); it really comes down to what you want. Eldritch Knight has the best pure casting, Swiftblade has some awesome Haste-based abilities while JPM has martial maneuvers. Make your choice.

Jarazix
2009-08-20, 09:34 AM
The problem is I can't decide.
Ek/ac option has best casting and hit points
Swiftblade option is an interesting, if focused gish
JPM has all the cool martial abilities, but I can't decide which one makes me the best double threat

Do the abilities of the former two offset the caster level of the first? I was kind of hoping somebody would chime in...swiftblade option worries me bacause ion the middle levels I will lose a bunch of caster levels, not sure if that will make 6-15 hard levels, JPM might suffer from that too.

I guess my real question is Eldritch knight build....is it better than the other two, or are the abilities enough to ignore caster level deficiencies

elliott20
2009-08-20, 09:42 AM
you're missing one level on your third build.

I recommend going #3, just because I like martial arts Gish. get arcane strike, and you can use it along with your martial maneuvers.

Eldariel
2009-08-20, 09:45 AM
They're quite close to each other in terms of power. Swiftblade loses caster levels but gets an extra Standard action! And JPM loses CLs but gets level 8 maneuvers for his trouble.

Eldritch Knight is definitely a strong build, but compared to the other two feels a bit bland to me (doesn't really have class features beyond casting+fighting). I'm not sure if it's stronger; perhaps slightly 'cause it has more casting. But yeah. Just go with your heart, or failing that, a die on this one.

Gnorman
2009-08-20, 09:49 AM
And JPM loses CLs but gets level 8 maneuvers for his trouble.

Given that ToB basically makes fighters just plain better, I'd go this route. With Warblade entry. Or the Feat-based entry, but it eats valuable feats.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-08-20, 09:58 AM
Honestly, I would nix the JPM. Whereas it's nice for melee to have an other option other than "full attack," you're a spellcaster: you already have that option. Also, with only Devoted Spirit and Desert Wind to choose from, it's a little disappointing on the actual maneuvers.

As has already been mentioned, Swiftblade gets an extra standard action for it's trouble late game. Before then, you're getting 20-50% miss chance from just casting haste.

Personally, having played at some point each of these set-ups, I'd go with the Swiftblade. Maybe EK, if you want spells ASAP, but I don't recall Pathfinder giving much in the way of class features.

EDIT: Side note on JPM. Grabbing the Aura of Chaos stance to get a little more bang out of Arcane Strike (CW version) could be fun.

ErrantX
2009-08-20, 10:16 AM
Keep in mind folks that the OP is using Pathfinder, and the Pathfinder revision of the Eldritch Knight actually gets class features. So the 1st option isn't just a bland gish. He gets something more than just full BAB and spells.

Personally, I'd vote for the Swiftblade, but that's me. I'd go 2, than 3, than 1.

-X

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-08-20, 10:25 AM
Keep in mind folks that the OP is using Pathfinder, and the Pathfinder revision of the Eldritch Knight actually gets class features. So the 1st option isn't just a bland gish. He gets something more than just full BAB and spells.

The only things that Pathfinder adds are another two bonus feats, the ability to qualify for fighter bonus feats, and free Quicken on a confirmed critical hit at 10th level.

Is it better than 3.5's EK? Yeah, no doubt. Are these class abilities better than an extra standard action a round? Not really. It's an improvement, but it still tastes like cardboard to me.

ErrantX
2009-08-20, 10:34 AM
Is it better than 3.5's EK? Yeah, no doubt. Are these class abilities better than an extra standard action a round? Not really. It's an improvement, but it still tastes like cardboard to me.

That's why I voted for the Swiftblade and the JPM before the EK :P

-X

Fax Celestis
2009-08-20, 10:39 AM
I'm personally a big fan of Duskblade 5/Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 4. BAB +20, CL 19 on Duskblade spells, Arcane Channeling plus the JPM's own (combineable) channeling ability, casting in Light armor, a kickass AC-when-you-need it spell in deflection (srzly, 1/2 CL as deflection as an immediate action, plus you get to augment it with your AbjCham), and Int-centricity. It's a pretty solid build.

MichielHagen
2009-08-20, 11:43 AM
Either Deflection doesn't give Deflection Armor Bonus, or the AK-levels are not added to it.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-20, 11:46 AM
Either Deflection doesn't give Deflection Armor Bonus, or the AK-levels are not added to it.

Hmm? Oh, sorry, it's a Shield bonus.

Mongoose87
2009-08-20, 11:50 AM
Make sure you grab Greater Luminous Armor from the BoED. It may have a cost, but that comes after many hours of adventuring. I'm pretty certain it's not permanent. I hope it's not. WHo would cast an armor spell with a permanent Str cost?

Doc Roc
2009-08-20, 11:57 AM
's not permanent.

How about the ruby shadow? Cached link while Gleemax is down. (http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:N_0l4QVPeXQJ:forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php%3Fp%3D9947791+ruby+shadow+wolfie-kun&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a)

Kylarra
2009-08-20, 12:04 PM
I vote swiftblade because hasty-ness is fun. :smallcool:

Doc Roc
2009-08-20, 12:12 PM
What's the starting level again?

Kobold-Bard
2009-08-20, 01:10 PM
Melee Class 1/Sorcerer 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7

BAB +17
CL 18

Or trade Melee 1 for Paladin 2 and drop a level of Eldritch Knight. Loses a CL but gets Charisma to Saves plus other tidbits.

You can trade Sorcerer for Wizard of course, but I prefer spontaneous casting myself.

Doc Roc
2009-08-20, 01:19 PM
He's a tiefling, so he qualifies for eldritch knight without dipping a melee class. His first build is a little cheesy as it exploits this, but pushes the CL higher I think than the example you give.

Draz74
2009-08-20, 01:23 PM
I also vote Swiftblade.

ex cathedra
2009-08-20, 02:56 PM
I'm quite fond of Swiftblades, as well! My current Test of Spite submission (Hint: sig) uses it. So, yeah, Swiftblade.

Navigator
2009-08-20, 09:36 PM
I am also an outsider so I already get Martial Weapon Proficiency ( tiefling )
I *think* they're getting rid of that loophole when their equivalent of the Monster Manual comes out, so you might have to rebuild.


1. Wizard 5 /Eldritch Knight 10/Abjurant Champion 5
Before you shoot for 10 levels in Eldritch Knight, carefully consider the capstone ability. If you're using the new Arcane Strike, you're going to end up having to choose between them.

In any case, I think JPM blows Eldritch Knight out of the water.


2. Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5
Swiftblade is totally ridiculous. That being said, I would take the 10th level and go Abjurant Champion 4.


3. Warblade 1/Wizard 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 9/Abjurant Champion 4
This is exactly what I would do personally. In fact, if my DM allowed ToB that would be my exact build, except I would do JPM 8 and Abjurant Champion 5.

Doc Roc
2009-08-20, 10:12 PM
So, there is... another option. I need to know starting level. if it's 12 or higher, I'm going to recommend you use one of my Elly builds. Swiftblade 10 + 9ths!

archerpwr
2009-08-20, 10:24 PM
I love swiftblade to death, but the only way I can see it being worth the 2 CL loss is if you face a LOT of stuff with True Seeing (Swiftblade's miss chance is (Ex), so shouldn't be countered by true seeing).

So, here's the deal:
Starting level 15+ or facing tons of enemies with true seeing active: Swiftblade
Starting any lower or not facing True Seeing every encounter: EK (especially with the goodies that PF tosses it for free)

You want to not be as good, but have more fun at the table: JPM (Seriously, the class isn't as strong, but maneuvers are a amusing).

But yeah, EK is going to be your strongest option in most cases below level 15.

Jarazix
2009-08-21, 06:58 AM
Starting level is 1. We rolled ability scores and I rolled ridiculously well, best I have ever rolled in fact, which is why I am considering a dual class. Worst score I rolled was a 14 and I rolled 3 18's. Even though he witnessed it I am worried the dm will nerf my ability scores.

Seems like everyone says no to vanilla eldritch knight and prefers the variant possibilities of more specialized builds. Does anyone have suggestions I have not considered, or tweaks to what I have considered?

Jarazix
2009-08-21, 07:00 AM
I love swiftblade to death, but the only way I can see it being worth the 2 CL loss is if you face a LOT of stuff with True Seeing (Swiftblade's miss chance is (Ex), so shouldn't be countered by true seeing).

So, here's the deal:
Starting level 15+ or facing tons of enemies with true seeing active: Swiftblade
Starting any lower or not facing True Seeing every encounter: EK (especially with the goodies that PF tosses it for free)

You want to not be as good, but have more fun at the table: JPM (Seriously, the class isn't as strong, but maneuvers are a amusing).

But yeah, EK is going to be your strongest option in most cases below level 15.

Yeah I agree this one is probably true due to progression. But I do see a 50% miss chance as saving my keister a lot

Fax Celestis
2009-08-21, 10:23 AM
Yeah I agree this one is probably true due to progression. But I do see a 50% miss chance as saving my keister a lot

It also has the interesting side effect of making you immune to sneak attack.

Cieyrin
2009-08-21, 11:19 AM
I *think* they're getting rid of that loophole when their equivalent of the Monster Manual comes out, so you might have to rebuild.

Well, from a look at the Bestiary Preview, which has Tieflings, there's no indication of whether or not martial proficiency is gained or not. I suppose we'd have to wait to see the inherent traits of the outsider type in Pathfinder, which'll have to wait till the Bestiary release.

Jarazix
2009-08-21, 11:37 AM
It also has the interesting side effect of making you immune to sneak attack.

I remember something about miss chance and sneak attack...where does that rule come from?

Fax Celestis
2009-08-21, 11:52 AM
I remember something about miss chance and sneak attack...where does that rule come from?


Sneak Attack

If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach. Emphasis mine.

ErrantX
2009-08-21, 12:00 PM
Another consideration for the gish build would be the Knight Phantom prestige class in Eberron: Five Nations. It's got slightly stiffer requirements that EK (Still Spell, must be able to cast phantom steed) and such, but you'll net some good class features, free phantom steeds, and the ability to wear armor without ASF.

Worth considering.

-X

Eldariel
2009-08-21, 04:41 PM
Swiftblade with Elusive Target beats pretty much any PC in an AMF (with Extraordinary Haste, obviously). Just saying.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-21, 03:39 PM
Swiftblade with Elusive Target beats pretty much any PC in an AMF (with Extraordinary Haste, obviously). Just saying.

I'll have to see if I have room for that in my ubercheese Factotem 8/Beholder Mage 1/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 2 build. Action economy? Action abuse? Heh...action mastery! Combined with a couple key feats from Eberron for action points, this dude's getting his cake and eating it two, along with several Fonts of Inspiration. If you can justify getting into Beholder Mage (and IIRC it doesn't have an Ex-BM section...hint hint), you'll be zipping around like no other.

As an aside, since I don't have LoM in front of me, is the CL calculated the same as Ur-Priest and friends, or more like Chameleon? I can't remember :embarassed