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Pika...
2009-08-20, 12:50 PM
So I have been having this idea of introducing Pun-Pun as a deity of sorts. Basically, given that he is the ultimate break in the 3rd edition mechanics, a "glitch" in the system of sorts, he would basically be like the Neo of D&D.

I was originally first imaging introduce him as a cameo when a group takes a trip aboard a ship. At a random point when things are getting slow, what looks like a tear in the surface of the water passes hurling by the ship raising a small wave on both sides of the break which soaks and moves about the ship about (think how the Flash runs on water). Depending on who is on the crows nest with the eyepiece, be it NPC or PC, they will be jaw-dropped saying something on the lines of "It...it...it was a kobold?!".


What are your thought on this? Too stupid/sill/far-off?

Nano
2009-08-20, 12:53 PM
Methinks maybe you've misaimed your post, mate.

Pika...
2009-08-20, 12:53 PM
Oops. Sorry. I thought I was in Roleplaying.

Can a mod please move this thread there?

Kobold-Bard
2009-08-20, 12:54 PM
So I have been having this idea of introducing Pun-Pun as a deity of sorts. Basically, given that he is the ultimate break in the 3rd edition mechanics, a "glitch" in the system of sorts, he would basically be like the Neo of D&D.

I was originally first imaging introduce him as a cameo when a group takes a trip aboard a ship. At a random point when things are getting slow, what looks like a tear in the surface of the water passes hurling by the ship raising a small wave on both sides of the break which soaks and moves about the ship about (think how the Flash runs on water). Depending on who is on the crows nest with the eyepiece, be it NPC or PC, they will be jaw-dropped saying something on the lines of "It...it...it was a kobold?!".


What are your thought on this? Too stupid/sill/far-off?

It's your campaign, things are only as silly as you want them to be. As for Pun-Pun as Neo, I like it and with your permission may steal the idea in it's entirety for my next game.

Pika...
2009-08-20, 12:56 PM
As for Pun-Pun as Neo, I like it and with your permission may steal the idea in it's entirety for my next game.

Dude, I am honored that someone would want to copy my ideas. Knock yourself out. :smallbiggrin:


p.s. If you are so kind, mind updating us with how it went? Should be amusing.

Kobold-Bard
2009-08-20, 01:01 PM
Dude, I am honored that someone would want to copy my ideas. Knock yourself out. :smallbiggrin:


p.s. If you are so kind, mind updating us with how it went? Should be amusing.

Thanks. Won't be for a while, but I'll make sure to post a thread about it (with a credit to you of course).

Pika...
2009-08-20, 01:03 PM
Thanks. Won't be for a while, but I'll make sure to post a thread about it (with a credit to you of course).


Much appreciated! :smallbiggrin:

seedjar
2009-08-20, 01:20 PM
I can see the appeal here. But, from a character design perspective, I think that perhaps it shouldn't be the full-on Pun-Pun player character. Mechanically, it works excellently as a deific build, but if it was anything but a casual cameo I would make sure that Pun-Pun has some sort of significant weakness. I'm thinking something along the lines of the Phantom Stranger. Otherwise I believe it would just seem too overwhelmingly railroad-y and contrived - while clever, there's a very high risk of sour grapes from the players.
~Joe

imperialspectre
2009-08-20, 01:30 PM
In my games, Pun-Pun ascended an unspecified amount of time ago, saw the ultimate truth of the D&D universe, and since then has been the self-appointed arbitrator of balance in the universe. He familicided the sarrukh out of the multiverse. He disintegrated and soul-bound Pazuzu, then used his [Pazuzu's] soul to enhance a magic item. And now, if PCs do something too cheesy, he plane shifts in and warns them from continuing.

Pika...
2009-08-20, 01:41 PM
I can see the appeal here. But, from a character design perspective, I think that perhaps it shouldn't be the full-on Pun-Pun player character. Mechanically, it works excellently as a deific build, but if it was anything but a casual cameo I would make sure that Pun-Pun has some sort of significant weakness. I'm thinking something along the lines of the Phantom Stranger. Otherwise I believe it would just seem too overwhelmingly railroad-y and contrived - while clever, there's a very high risk of sour grapes from the players.
~Joe

Well, unless the PCs reach Epic Levels (which I highly doubt), I am not sure there is much reason to actually stat him. Plus, isn't part of the joke that he can have any stats he wants?


However, I am considering introducing a "scary myth" within kobold society about never saying "Pun, plus the word Pun". Basically, Pun-Pun ripped off Pazuzu's idea (like what the hell is Pazuzu gonna do about it?).




In my games, Pun-Pun ascended an unspecified amount of time ago, saw the ultimate truth of the D&D universe, and since then has been the self-appointed arbitrator of balance in the universe. He familicided the sarrukh out of the multiverse. He disintegrated and soul-bound Pazuzu, then used his [Pazuzu's] soul to enhance a magic item. And now, if PCs do something too cheesy, he plane shifts in and warns them from continuing.

Dude, that is awesome!

If I hadn't already had a set of "Higher Powers" above even gods in my cosmology I would so steal your setup. However, nothing says he still can't take over...


Oh, and I find it a surprising, but for some unknown reason fitting, coincidence that we also both thought of connecting Pazuzu into this.

Zuki
2009-08-20, 01:53 PM
I ran a comedy-oriented campaign with an all-Kobold cast. It was a pretty generic setting, but I did let all the players know that, at some unspecified point in the fast, the kobold Pun-Pun did indeed exist and ascend to divinity. Fortunately the realities of Godhood were sufficiently distracting to prevent The Almighty Pun to proceed from there to repeat the infinite hax power loop and start smashing other gods around.

A massive snowjob on the part of deity and mortal alike ensured that, for the most part, people are not aware of Pun-Pun and her accomplishments. But kobolds recall the greatest of their kind since Kurtulmek, and aware her equal credence and respect as a god of excellence.

I was a bit dissappointed that noone wanted to play a Cleric of Pun-Pun. It was carte blanche to minmax!

Voice of Reason
2009-08-20, 01:58 PM
You are correct Pika, Pun-Pun is entitled to have every beneficial ability in the game. Additionally, part of his core build already gives him a diefic rank as high as he wants it to be, giving him every ability in the entire game, even the abilities of the gods (because he is a god, with the highest divine ranking among gods, who also embodies all the beneficial qualities of every thing that has ever existed.) Some rules-lawyery people even make the arguement that Pun-Pun can have any ability he can concieve of, giving him abilities that are literally unique and above anything the world has ever seen before.

In this next sentance, replace "infinite" with "as high as he wants," because it's not truely infinite, just as high as Pun-Pun cares to go before stopping:

Pun-Pun has iinfinite HD, skills, ability scores, feats, spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, extraordinary abilities, sight range, reach, speed, divine rank, proxies/minions/companions/familiars/etc, carrying capacity, and the list just goes on and on. In essense, he can see everything in existance all the time, be able to reach anything in existance all the time, be able to destroy anything in existance all the time, and be able to create anything all the time.

In short, he can make for a funny entrance into your game if you want to, or even a potent railroading device (if you're interested in railroading players :smallconfused:) but he does not make a good companion or villain.

Given that his speed is as close to infinite as you can get, Pun-Pun could be running past the ship to whatever his destination is in fractions of a second; the naked eye wouldn't be able to see him. However, if you want, your speeding blur to come to a halt right next to the ship, stare curiously at the adventurers for a second or two (besides having water walk as probably an extraordinary ability, a simple DC 120 balance check allows walking on air, so how hard can water be?) and then run off again like the roadrunner, leaving everyone gawking "It...it...it was a kobold!?"

AstralFire
2009-08-20, 02:01 PM
While a well-written post, I must say that it's spelled 'infinite', if only because seeing the exact same typo that many times in close proximity makes my eye twitch.

Voice of Reason
2009-08-20, 03:18 PM
Many pardons, I don't know how I could have missed that...so many times. This is why I'm supposed to proofread my posts I suppose :smalltongue:

I shall go fix it so that your eyes may stop hurting.

EDIT: That better?

Optimystik
2009-08-20, 03:27 PM
Who would be Smith? The Omnificer? Cancer Mage?

seedjar
2009-08-20, 04:45 PM
Well, unless the PCs reach Epic Levels (which I highly doubt), I am not sure there is much reason to actually stat him. Plus, isn't part of the joke that he can have any stats he wants?


Indeed - statting him would be useless. What I mean is that you should have some non-mechanical reason for him to be more or less detached from the world, such as imperialspectre's arbitrator idea. Because otherwise it's a DMPC to the power of n - more like DM handwaving and less like a clever reference.
~Joe

sofawall
2009-08-20, 04:57 PM
Who would be Smith? The Omnificer? Cancer Mage?

The clones build someone put up recently would be my guess.

chiasaur11
2009-08-20, 05:15 PM
Who would be Smith? The Omnificer? Cancer Mage?

That one swarm based diplomancer.

Doc Roc
2009-08-20, 05:30 PM
Which one? There's so many of them. :)

I presume you mean H.I.V.E.

Smith would be the Neo-Terminators by Tleilaxu_Ghola. Unfortunately, it's nigh-impossible to find the write-up of them, but suffice to say that they use non-deterministic time travel. They kill normal pun pun, but the debate regarding Monty (The Final Iteration of Pun-Pun) never came to a conclusive result.

Zeta Kai
2009-08-20, 06:14 PM
Indeed - statting him would be useless.

But it makes for a funny read :smallwink::


Pun-Pun
Kobold Wizard 1
Small Humanoid (Reptilian)
Hit Dice: ∞d4+∞ (∞HP)
Initiative: +∞
Speed: ∞’ (∞ squares)
Armor Class: ∞ (+1 size, +∞ Dex, +∞ natural); touch ∞; flat-footed ∞
Base Attack/Grapple: +∞/+∞
Attack: Dagger +∞ melee (∞d3+∞) or Shuriken +∞ ranged (1+∞)
Full Attack: Dagger +∞/+∞/+∞/+∞ melee (∞d3+∞) or Shuriken +∞/+∞/+∞/+∞ ranged (1+∞)
Space/Reach: 5’/∞’
Special Attacks: Anything I Can Imagine, I Win
Special Qualities: Anything I Can Imagine, Humanoid traits
Saves: Fort +∞, Ref +∞, Will +∞
Abilities: Str ∞ (+∞), Dex ∞ (+∞), Con ∞ (+∞), Int ∞ (+∞), Wis ∞ (+∞), Cha ∞ (+∞)
Skills: Appraise +∞, Autohypnosis +∞, Balance +∞, Bluff +∞, Climb +∞, Concentration +∞, Craft +∞, Decipher Script +∞, Diplomacy +∞, Disable Device +∞, Disguise +∞, Escape Artist +∞, Forgery +∞, Gather Information +∞, Handle Animal +∞, Heal +∞, Hide +∞, Iaijutsu Focus +∞, Intimidate +∞, Jump +∞, Knowledge (arcana) +∞, Knowledge (architecture) +∞, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +∞, Knowledge (geography) +∞, Knowledge (history) +∞, Knowledge (local) +∞, Knowledge (nature) +∞, Knowledge (nobility) +∞, Knowledge (psionics) +∞, Knowledge (religion) +∞, Knowledge (planes) +∞, Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) +∞, Listen +∞, Move Silently +∞, Open Lock +∞, Perform +∞, Profession +∞, Psicraft +∞, Ride +∞, Search +∞, Sense Motive +∞, Sleight of Hand +∞, Speak Language +∞, Spellcraft +∞, Spot +∞, Survival +∞, Swim +∞, Truenaming +∞, Tumble +∞, Use Magical Device +∞, Use Psionic Device +∞, Use Rope +∞
Feats: all of them
Challenge Rating: ∞
Treasure: ∞
Alignment: True Neutral

Eldariel
2009-08-20, 06:32 PM
Actually, I'd assume he'd be Lawful Neutral since the modern build didn't need the second Wish from Pazuzu. Also, given his abilities, I'd actually say his alignment should be True Neutral, just because it's Pun-Pun. And he's a Paladin!

imperialspectre
2009-08-20, 06:59 PM
Doesn't Pazuzu shift toward Chaotic, then toward Evil? That would make Pazuzu NG.

Although really, he's probably possessed of all alignments at once.

Zeta Kai
2009-08-20, 07:31 PM
So I stat out Pun-Pun, showing my mastery of the computer's character map by whipping out the actual infinity symbol (a lemniscate, for both of you who care), & all you wanna do is start an alignment debate? I picked it out of a hat, honestly. Just like with any other character, it's just that arbitrary. :smallsigh:

PId6
2009-08-20, 07:38 PM
You have Iaijutsu Focus and Truenaming but not psionic skills? :smalltongue:

AstralFire
2009-08-20, 07:39 PM
So I stat out Pun-Pun, showing my mastery of the computer's character map by whipping out the actual infinity symbol (a lemniscate, for both of you who care), & all you wanna do is start an alignment debate? I picked it out of a hat, honestly. Just like with any other character, it's just that arbitrary. :smallsigh:

Well, I liked it, ZK.

Pika...
2009-08-20, 07:49 PM
I wish you were my DM. I would have jumped on that in a heartbeat. :smallfrown:



[QUOTE=Voice of Reason;6762918]You are correct Pika, Pun-Pun is entitled to have every beneficial ability in the game. Additionally, part of his core build already gives him a diefic rank as high as he wants it to be, giving him every ability in the entire game, even the abilities of the gods (because he is a god, with the highest divine ranking among gods, who also embodies all the beneficial qualities of every thing that has ever existed.) Some rules-lawyery people even make the arguement that Pun-Pun can have any ability he can concieve of, giving him abilities that are literally unique and above anything the world has ever seen before.

In this next sentance, replace "infinite" with "as high as he wants," because it's not truely infinite, just as high as Pun-Pun cares to go before stopping:

Pun-Pun has iinfinite HD, skills, ability scores, feats, spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, extraordinary abilities, sight range, reach, speed, divine rank, proxies/minions/companions/familiars/etc, carrying capacity, and the list just goes on and on. In essense, he can see everything in existance all the time, be able to reach anything in existance all the time, be able to destroy anything in existance all the time, and be able to create anything all the time.

In short, he can make for a funny entrance into your game if you want to, or even a potent railroading device (if you're interested in railroading players :smallconfused:) but he does not make a good companion or villain.

Thank you for all the information. Good to have all the details.



Given that his speed is as close to infinite as you can get, Pun-Pun could be running past the ship to whatever his destination is in fractions of a second; the naked eye wouldn't be able to see him. However, if you want, your speeding blur to come to a halt right next to the ship, stare curiously at the adventurers for a second or two (besides having water walk as probably an extraordinary ability, a simple DC 120 balance check allows walking on air, so how hard can water be?) and then run off again like the roadrunner, leaving everyone gawking "It...it...it was a kobold!?"

Dude, you are brilliant. :smallbiggrin:

I originally figured if he was going anywhere, he probably would not be doing so on foot unless he wanted to, so what speed he went at was arbitrary. But your idea works much better.


p.s. If there are any kobolds on board the vessel, how would you all say they would react?




Indeed - statting him would be useless. What I mean is that you should have some non-mechanical reason for him to be more or less detached from the world, such as imperialspectre's arbitrator idea. Because otherwise it's a DMPC to the power of n - more like DM handwaving and less like a clever reference.
~Joe

I am sorry, but I do not quite get your logic. DMPC? Just because in my mind (unless the PCs REALLY want to investigate this anomaly) I keep track of hims as the "glitch"/"Neo" of the D&D multiverse instead of a deity of Divine Rank X?

Please, can you tell me exactly what difference it would make to the game?

Plus, like I said they would not be able to mess with the cute little guy unless they were into Epic Level gaming, and even then he would be at least a Great Deity level power.

chiasaur11
2009-08-20, 09:32 PM
Doesn't Pazuzu shift toward Chaotic, then toward Evil? That would make Pazuzu NG.

Although really, he's probably possessed of all alignments at once.

Oddly, LE is one of the three alignments the default can't have (without a voluntary decision). NG is picked just because standard Paladins are the easiest pick.


Also, a good or Neutral is needed if there's still a universe left. Evil...

Can't see that kind of restraint.

Zeta Kai
2009-08-20, 10:14 PM
You have Iaijutsu Focus and Truenaming but not psionic skills? :smalltongue:

Added. Thanks for the catch.


Well, I liked it, ZK.

Thanks, that does make it all worth it. :smallcool:

aje8
2009-08-20, 10:37 PM
Note that Pun-Pun actually has infinite in some things...... I forget what now.

The CO Optimization boards differentiate between "Nigh" as high as he wants and infinte actually infinitley high.

Finally, note that Pun-Pun actually has infinite actions....... which is kinda lolz. He doesn't just reach from anywhere in the multi-verse, use any SLA at will and attack with infinte attack bonus, divine rank and damage, he also does infinite times every round.

ImperiousLeader
2009-08-20, 10:47 PM
I want to play a kobold PC that worships Pun-Pun.

PId6
2009-08-20, 10:48 PM
Note that Pun-Pun actually has infinite in some things...... I forget what now.
Skills, using the Omnificer loop. Not sure what else though.

Zuki
2009-08-21, 12:16 AM
I want to play a kobold PC that worships Pun-Pun.


I wish you were my DM. I would have jumped on that in a heartbeat. :smallfrown:

Ah, thanks guys. It was a pretty crazy little campaign. I'd initially started it with the idea of the campaign staying at low levels for a long time and part of the comedy and fun being from overcoming ridiculiously overpowered challenges and the threat of PC death. Then I noticed that my players, one in particular, were ambitious. Very, very ambitious. I essentially had Kobold Kamina on my hands, except replace 'mecha pilot' with 'crackpot faux-spanish, faux-communist revolutionary'. And then the party was rolling downhill through tunnels on a stolen cart, ON FIRE, battling a PC's jealous ex-girlfriend who had only been established as such because the PC decided that "Oh my god, it's my ex!" was a funny thing to say in a conversation with a guard. The fight ended with grappling and "I kiss her."

So I think they had the proper Pun-Pun spirit of things, or at least one aspect of it.

But. Uh. Right, back on topic.

I think if that campaign had gone on long enough, having the players start getting hunted by divine and planar agents who are worried they are following in the path of the Pun in their pursuit of power would have been pretty cool. I mean, they were already pretty much planning on conquering the surface world if the game went on long enough. I'd never considered them actually having a chance to meet the deity.

So. If you were going to give Pun-Pun a personality, or stat it up as a deity for a player, assuming she stopped her ascension to ridiculous heights somewhere between demigod status and greater godhood, how would you do so? Bear in mind that, technically, god status seems to be based on number of worshippers and general awareness, not how many other gods they can beat down.

seedjar
2009-08-21, 12:46 AM
I am sorry, but I do not quite get your logic. DMPC? Just because in my mind (unless the PCs REALLY want to investigate this anomaly) I keep track of hims as the "glitch"/"Neo" of the D&D multiverse instead of a deity of Divine Rank X?

Please, can you tell me exactly what difference it would make to the game?

Plus, like I said they would not be able to mess with the cute little guy unless they were into Epic Level gaming, and even then he would be at least a Great Deity level power.

Sorry, perhaps my explanation is a little muddled. What I'm trying to say is that if you make Pun-Pun a major influence on your campaign, it will probably evoke a negative reaction from your players. Because not only does it smack of railroading ("He's Pun-Pun, he's unbeatable and you can't do anything to help it,") but you've managed to do it by flaunting a ridiculously broken mishmash of rules in the face of your players, who probably don't have access to anywhere near that kind of cheese.
You could give him divine rank if you wanted to - I don't think it would really make a difference though. His power level is over 9000 - even without a divine rank, he could probably acquire the necessary properties to be impervious to any deity you throw his way. Any interaction between Pun-Pun and players that requires the resolution of a rule (besides perhaps rule 0) is going to be quite boring, though, because you already know that whatever it is - save, opposed check, damage roll - it can be manipulated in Pun-Pun's favor. So, to avoid monotony, I think it's good form to eschew such interactions altogether.
But you probably won't make him a major influence - at most just some background flavor. Which is fine and humorous. So it shouldn't matter.
~Joe

Pika...
2009-08-21, 02:32 AM
Sorry, perhaps my explanation is a little muddled. What I'm trying to say is that if you make Pun-Pun a major influence on your campaign, it will probably evoke a negative reaction from your players. Because not only does it smack of railroading ("He's Pun-Pun, he's unbeatable and you can't do anything to help it,") but you've managed to do it by flaunting a ridiculously broken mishmash of rules in the face of your players, who probably don't have access to anywhere near that kind of cheese.
You could give him divine rank if you wanted to - I don't think it would really make a difference though. His power level is over 9000 - even without a divine rank, he could probably acquire the necessary properties to be impervious to any deity you throw his way. Any interaction between Pun-Pun and players that requires the resolution of a rule (besides perhaps rule 0) is going to be quite boring, though, because you already know that whatever it is - save, opposed check, damage roll - it can be manipulated in Pun-Pun's favor. So, to avoid monotony, I think it's good form to eschew such interactions altogether.
But you probably won't make him a major influence - at most just some background flavor. Which is fine and humorous. So it shouldn't matter.
~Joe

Oh, I see. Thank you for explaining. :smallsmile:

And I see what you mean. I was never thinking of making him a major influence, or to railroad players with him. Originally I was just considering some fun/funny cameos.


However, I am beginning to really like the idea of Pun-Pun ripping of Pazuzu, and the kobolds having a bit of paranoia over repeating his name (or should it be repeating his name multiple times?). Do you folks have any ideas or opinions concerning this? If so, any advice for how I should run it?


And/or, I did have another idea. You know how players often say things like "dang, when is the next fight?", "I wish we would come across another fight..."? Well, what if whenever that happened a certain kobold popped up in any of various ways (running like the road runner towards them, walking through a solid wall suddenly out of nowhere, suddenly taps a PC on the shoulder, etc), smiles (or possibly even talks to them for a bit?), then smiles and snaps his fingers. At which point something materializes out of midair.

What are your thoughts on this? Good idea? Bad?

I figure it would at least get the players the combat they want.

I am not very sure how he would make his exit, though...



p.s. Oh, and if Pun-Pun is introduced like this, would that not mean Garl Glittergold is pretty much screwed? Or at best in constant running and hiding? http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/icons/icon5.gif

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-21, 09:07 AM
Oh, I see. Thank you for explaining. :smallsmile:

And I see what you mean. I was never thinking of making him a major influence, or to railroad players with him. Originally I was just considering some fun/funny cameos.


However, I am beginning to really like the idea of Pun-Pun ripping of Pazuzu, and the kobolds having a bit of paranoia over repeating his name (or should it be repeating his name multiple times?). Do you folks have any ideas or opinions concerning this? If so, any advice for how I should run it?


And/or, I did have another idea. You know how players often say things like "dang, when is the next fight?", "I wish we would come across another fight..."? Well, what if whenever that happened a certain kobold popped up in any of various ways (running like the road runner towards them, walking through a solid wall suddenly out of nowhere, suddenly taps a PC on the shoulder, etc), smiles (or possibly even talks to them for a bit?), then smiles and snaps his fingers. At which point something materializes out of midair.

What are your thoughts on this? Good idea? Bad?

I figure it would at least get the players the combat they want.

I am not very sure how he would make his exit, though...



p.s. Oh, and if Pun-Pun is introduced like this, would that not mean Garl Glittergold is pretty much screwed? Or at best in constant running and hiding? http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/icons/icon5.gif

I think at this point a knowledge check to identify the pale-leather jacket that Pun-Pun is wearing is called for... >_>
...Yeah, Garl is Pretty much screwed by now, I'd have thought.

Optimystik
2009-08-21, 09:11 AM
So I stat out Pun-Pun, showing my mastery of the computer's character map by whipping out the actual infinity symbol (a lemniscate, for both of you who care), & all you wanna do is start an alignment debate?

If I didn't know any better, I'd swear you were new here. :smalltongue:

Random832
2009-08-21, 09:37 AM
Yeah - all we EVER want to do is start alignment debates :smallbiggrin: (still saving that Celia one for a rainy day)

chiasaur11
2009-08-21, 10:08 AM
I think at this point a knowledge check to identify the pale-leather jacket that Pun-Pun is wearing is called for... >_>
...Yeah, Garl is Pretty much screwed by now, I'd have thought.

Well, double P is neutral good and infinitely wise, a beneficent being.


So of course he'd murder Glittergold.

Kris Strife
2009-08-21, 08:48 PM
Why wouldn't Pun-Pun give himself the ability to alter his own alignment, cast 'Atonement' on himself, make all class abilities stack, have no alignment restrictions or multiclassing penalties?

aje8
2009-08-21, 11:41 PM
make all class abilities stack
He doesn't have class abiltiies. He uses manipultive form to give himself any ability. At all. That exists anywhere in DnD.

Also, his Divine Rank, just FYI is nigh via the Squirrel trick.

But yeah..... actually putting a Pun-Pun into campagin seems like it's railroading or random. If he doesn't actually do anything it's random. Otherwise it's railroading or darn close to it.

Rixx
2009-08-21, 11:51 PM
I think it's ruled in our world that Pun-Pun's ascension had already happened. Pun-Pun grew bored with the world, and started it all anew, explaining why our cosmology is different and why so many races and monsters don't exist in the world. (There are no orcs or goblins - but of course there are still kobolds). Pun-Pun only intervenes in order to prevent more Pun-Puns from coming into being.

Nerdanel
2009-08-22, 04:56 AM
I think one way to have Pun-Pun as a viable NPC would be to nerf Assume Form to require familiarity and remove the infinite stat loop. For example, the party meets a kobold NPC that acts friendly. After a while the kobold has made himself immune to sleep spells from the party elf, something that the party has no way of knowing without targetting the kobold with a sleep spell. Also, the kobold has picked up all of their racial stat bonuses but none of the penalties, which stack on the kobold as long as they come from different races.

Will the party notice what's happening before the kobold has made himself unstoppable?

Forrestfire
2009-08-22, 07:15 AM
But shouldn't Pun-Pun be familiar with everything because of his infinite knowledge checks?

Nerdanel
2009-08-22, 04:08 PM
But shouldn't Pun-Pun be familiar with everything because of his infinite knowledge checks?

Nerf-Pun doesn't have infinite knowledge checks due to his very much non-infinite intelligence score and even more limited skill scores. Copying to himself a slew of skill focus feats from various characters only does that much. Also, we could declare that Nerf-Pun needs to have personally observed a creature, not only heard about it. Similarly we could say that Nerf-Pun needs to to see someone cast a spell and make the spellcraft check to recognize it in order to be later on able to add the spell to himself as an at-will spell-like ability. (He has naturally already turned his original wizard spells into those, by the way, and has higher stats and more feats and special abilities, even incongurous ones, than you might expect from his lowly appearance.)