Tomb of Horrors mentality vs Tucker's Kobolds

[Frosty]

If you've got a group of players that, when they have time, uses Summon Elemental reserve feat over and over again to check for traps and to scout and report, and they usually have enough magic and items to never have to touch anything themselves to interact with things, can fly naturally or always have some sort of long term/permanent flight effect going (they never have to touch the ground) and they have "get out of jail" spells/items prepared all the time (think Gaseous form to help escape traps, or even the Dimensional Jaunt reserve feat, items to not need to breathe, even Reduce Person for cases when you need to escape through a smaller hole and you ran out of Gaseous Forms for the day), then how challenging are Tucker's Kobolds?

Tomb of Horrors is static and a one trick pony (lots of instance sof that trick, but mostly just one trick). Against a paranoid party like that, what can those kobolds do to adapt and kill the party?

[Signmaker]

Indiscriminate subjection to all four primal elements.

[SilentDragoon]

I'm not too sure about the method of how to do it... but from the viewpoint of the Kobolds wouldn't it be best to basically shroud themselves in some kind of semi-permanent AMF? Any intruder that comes across them is going to have access to a larger and stronger selection of magic spells, whereas most Tucker's Kobolds appear to specialize in mechanical traps and standard non magical combat.

I actually don't play DnD, but one of the games I've played, Neverwinter Nights, had an area that was permanently magically dead due to the obelisk of some long dead and forgotten race. My over-leveled character brimming with magical gear died twice because I just wasn't used to having to rely on his powers and strategic feats opposed to his gear. I think the area was full of spiders, which I couldn't remove the poison from (I had divine magic, so why bring along antidotes?) and was paralyzed/brought down to negligible strength by the poison.

[Shinizak]

Tucker's kobalds are powerful when they act as a true team. Sorcerers and wizards with wands of dispel, archers that launch flaming arrows, and knights with tower shields who only exist to protect the archers are an amazing combo. but they fall apart if a single kobald decide to be the hero.

[Tiki Snakes]

Anti-magic could work as a good leveller. Flight isn't really going to help them, because any space that a halfling doesn't have to squeeze through is basically a death-trap anyway, so if they've been given room to fly, it's so that they can move directly into the way of some other horrible mechanism.

The Summoning via reserve feats style stuff could be a problem, of course. If the Kobold's have chance to have learned of the PC's before they get to their lair, it's okay though. Give them a day or two and they should have whipped up plenty of banishing traps, (or if such a thing exists/can be scratched together, some kind of elemental-dominating trap or area-effect to turn any summoned creatures upon their masters).

Worth mentioning, a vast majority of the traps in such a situation aren't static, triggerable things, but remotely activated by hand when the Lair needs defending.

Remember, as of the races-of-the-dragon and it's web enhancement, they are brimming with sorcererous potential, so mechanical AND magical traps are both fair game.

If the Kobolds have enough resources, AND the knowledge of the party, then I'd say it's quite possible that they would have tailored the traps to the parties get-out-of-jail free tricks.

An example would be - You have a trap corridor, and a bridge. Underneath the bridge is a vat of acid. In the next chamber, is whatever kind of trap would be best avoided by a reserve-feat-style dimensional jaunt.
HOWEVER the tribe's sorcerers have crafted a dimensional-anchor crystal, and embedded it in the bottom of the pit of acid. Anyone teleporting in or out of the area instead matirialises in the bottom of the otherwise mundane pit of acid.

Really though, it all depends on how much time the Kobolds have to tailor their defences to the party beforehand. If they have resources and plenty of warning, getting ready and coming up with the most fiendish traps would start to resemble some kind of festival more than a desperate war effort, trap-building is a racial obsession, a national art, and a favourite pastime of almost all Kobolds.

[edit] If they DON'T have knowledge of the party beforehand, let alone time to prepare, and expect a more standard adventuring party, then the poor little Kobolds don't stand a chance, of course, and would likely abandon the lair/region through pre-prepared bolt-holes as soon as the scale of the threat is realised.

[Frosty]

I'm lookign for ways the Kobolds can adapt on the fly, not having fore-knowledge of party specifics. And I'd also prefer the kobolds to not have to rely on magic items too much. The average kobold lair should rely on more mundane traps, which the original Tucker's Kobolds rely on.

Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention that the party has Detect Magic at-will, so scanning for magical traps wouldn't be hard.

[Jack_Simth]

If you've got a group of players that, when they have time, uses Summon Elemental reserve feat over and over again to check for traps and to scout and report, and they usually have enough magic and items to never have to touch anything themselves to interact with things, can fly naturally or always have some sort of long term/permanent flight effect going (they never have to touch the ground) and they have "get out of jail" spells/items prepared all the time (think Gaseous form to help escape traps, or even the Dimensional Jaunt reserve feat, items to not need to breathe, even Reduce Person for cases when you need to escape through a smaller hole and you ran out of Gaseous Forms for the day), then how challenging are Tucker's Kobolds?

Tomb of Horrors is static and a one trick pony (lots of instance sof that trick, but mostly just one trick). Against a paranoid party like that, what can those kobolds do to adapt and kill the party?
Depends on the resources the kobolds have at their disposal, and the resources the party has at their disposal.

If the Kobolds are a bunch of 1st level NPC classed critters who have mundane weapons plus anything they could reasonably craft? Maybe.... if the attacking party doesn't have a source of limitless healing (Touch of Healing, Minor Shapeshift, Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell) applied to something in the Vigor line, Summon Elemental + MIC Vampiric weapon, et cetera). If the party does have a source of limitless healing, then this type of Tuckers Kobolds have a very serious problem: They're drawing the PC's into traps, but the PC's don't follow unless they're reasonably healed up, so the party isn't getting the "worn down" effect unless the kobolds can continuously pound them at a rate faster than their available healing (which is HARD with the limitations above).

If the kobolds have access to dispels, counterspells, antimagic, and other counters for PC magic? Then yes, Tucker's Kobolds can do great against a party... but the problem then becomes that they're not a bunch of low-level Kobolds, they're a mass of mid level classed monsters.


Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention that the party has Detect Magic at-will, so scanning for magical traps wouldn't be hard.

Look up the Sor/Wiz-1 Core Spell Magic Aura (It's got a name in front of it for the PHB version - Nistguls, I think, although I'm horrible at spelling). Deals with Detect Magic rather nicely.

[Frosty]

If the kobolds have access to dispels, counterspells, antimagic, and other counters for PC magic? Then yes, Tucker's Kobolds can do great against a party... but the problem then becomes that they're not a bunch of low-level Kobolds, they're a mass of mid level classed monsters.

THe party would average at ECL 10. I'm not sure I want to throw a lot of spellcasters at them that can cast AMF, a 6th level spell at best. I mean, with enough Dispel Wands they might be able to do a lot of damage, but that's just throwing a lot of gold at a problem and hoping it'll go away. How is it different than having a bunch of mooks all with dispels ready to aid a BBEG?

You're right in that it becomes more about the powers of a mass of mid-level classed monsters instead if it about Tucker's devious-ness.

[Milskidasith]

As for dominating elementals: Even if it *could* work out reasonably well, it would still not work, because the elementals are pathetic. Their only purpose is to find traps; a couple of Kobolds are more than a match for them in single combat.

[erikun]

....how challenging are Tucker's Kobolds?
None at all.

The "point" to Tucker's Kobolds is in using weak creatures with common materials to endanger higher level groups who panic and have their guard down. The "point" of Tome of Horror groups is to be paranoid and never go anywhere without an escape route.

Throwing out stones of Anti-Magic Field and similar tactics aren't Tucker's Kobolds, it's Tucker's Mid-Level Artificers. The Summon Elemental reserve feat means at least level 7+, meaning that they should be prepared for antimagic anyways, either from another wizard, a beholder, or an Arcane Archer. While the Tuckers can still drop the stones through murder holes and fill the room with burning brush, it will be a lot less effective. The party with have fire-resistant alchemical oils (which aren't magic and thus still help), they'll have infinite elementals to walk through walls and can Stone to Mud/Stone Shape/Wall of Stone to block off the holes anyways.

The best way to challange a Tome of Horror party? Put them on the clock. :smalltongue: They'll still be prepared for just about anything, they just won't be able to summon an elemental to take 20 searching every tile in the dungeon.

[Tiki Snakes]

Okay, so low magic Kobolds, no warning and no time to tailor for the task. Hmm.

The key will be the fact that any area meant for Kobolds would basically be completely inhospitable to PC's. None of the bits they don't want PC's in should be big enough for medium creatures to move freely. If you're okay with the web enhancement, then the connecting tunnels can be small enough that even other small creatures will struggle to squeeze through!

see http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a

Slight Build is the good bit. They get to count as a size smaller when it helps them out, basically, so they can practically squeeze through mouse-holes if they're desperate enough.

The main network of tunnels would have to elements, the 'large' bits that appear to be the way in, possibly including various dummy chambers of similar scale, all riddled with secret tunnels about the size of a drainpipe, with 5-foot-square stations (linked to the main area via either peep-holes or even lens-refracting periscopes and so on) from where the kobolds can operate the larger, more deadly traps and mechanisms.

The further in you get, the smaller the pc-accomodating areas become, and the more murder-holes, collapsing ceilings, buzz-saws, incinerators etc. The Kobold's should be able to essentially attack the PC's from every angle, pretty much constantly, usually without even entering the same room.

Your PC's will slowly, cautiously begin their way, triggering every automatic trap in their path, bypassing some, destroying others. They'll quickly get through the more open areas and find their way into the more claustraphobic area. Now, depending on how much info they get from their scouting Elementals, they may even attempt to break out of the kobold's prepared route. This would not be something the kobolds are expecting.

The two things the Kobolds have to deal with at this point, that wouldn't otherwise be an issue, is that A) they may well be facing an endless barrage of elemental creatures. If they understand that the creatures are temporary, so to speak, they should be happy to fade-away and avoid them, sneaking through their network of pipes and continuing to poke the cautious pc's from the other side as they wait for their scouts to return.
B) The PC's may well attempt to move the fight into the kobold's tunnels, if they've got the whole reduce-person thing going. This would simply be a case of having the kobolds attempt to split up the pc's as they worm their way through tunnels far too small for them to survive in.

There should be a murder-hole of some kind about every two feet, on every surface, and any space large enough for a kobold to attack from should only be linked to other ones by the small pipe-like structures. This might mean that each little attack-spot has it's own longspear, or that the kobolds use blowpipes. Blowpipes with exotic poisons could be a good tactic for the kobolds to use, all in all.

The key would be, in the face of this very cautious, very prepared party, to try their utmost to overwhelm them and panic them WITHOUT taking massive penalties. Essentially the Party should rarely ever see a Kobold, but they should be suffering attacks from them every single round they spend inside the lair. Any kobold spotted should escape immediately via the bolt-holes and head to a different location. If the PC's destroy enough infrastructure, they should cut their losses and collapse the section on them, and if they force their way too close to the main area of the lair, they should begin evacuating it while the warriors keep the pc's busy.

The Kobolds have two victory conditions; 1- The PC's go away
2- Kobolds Survive.
If the Pc's can be made to leave, be it out of sheer annoyance or actual damage done, that's fine.
If they manage to get out of the situation with the majority of the tribe intact, that is also cause for celebration.
The PC's getting away isn't a concern, nor, really, is killing them.


If the PC's are just too prepared, too brutal, and too indomitable, they should intermix their death-by-1000-cuts attack with intimidation, diplomacy, bluff, whatever it takes to get the PC's to stop their attack.

[Frosty]

Well the point of the kobolds is to try your trap the PCs and kill them before they can escape. The point of ToH PCs is to make sure to have an escape plan like you said. So who wins? The kobolds don't have to be level 1 Experts, but since they outnumber the PCs like 20 to 1 they probably shouldn't have anywhere close in terms of class levels compared to PCs.

[Tiki Snakes]

The best way to challange a Tome of Horror party? Put them on the clock. :smalltongue: They'll still be prepared for just about anything, they just won't be able to summon an elemental to take 20 searching every tile in the dungeon.

I basically agree. The best chance they have, as I can see it, is if every single tile in the dungeon swings back to reveal a kobold with a pointy stick. 3 or 4 attacks against each pc every 6 seconds without relenting should either convince the pc's that it's worth leaving, or that they should destroy the entire structure from orbit(Earthquake etc).


Also, your approaching the Kobolds aim wrong. Their goal is not to trap and kill the PC's so they can't get away. They are tiny, wretched lizards in a huge and deadly world. Their only goal is to survive, so what they really want is to make the PC's go away, at any cost.

[Frosty]

I basically agree. The best chance they have, as I can see it, is if every single tile in the dungeon swings back to reveal a kobold with a pointy stick. 3 or 4 attacks against each pc every 6 seconds without relenting should either convince the pc's that it's worth leaving, or that they should destroy the entire structure from orbit(Earthquake etc).


Also, your approaching the Kobolds aim wrong. Their goal is not to trap and kill the PC's so they can't get away. They are tiny, wretched lizards in a huge and deadly world. Their only goal is to survive, so what they really want is to make the PC's go away, at any cost.


Kobold Diplomancer? :smallamused: Maybe even offering the PCs a magic item in return for the PCs to never come back?

Oh yeah, there's a competent dragon-shaman in the party, so havin infinite healing and also reactive damage is not a problem. If the kobolds attack in melee, they take Acid damage.

[Tiki Snakes]

Kobold Diplomancer? :smallamused: Maybe even offering the PCs a magic item in return for the PCs to never come back?

Oh yeah, there's a competent dragon-shaman in the party, so havin infinite healing and also reactive damage is not a problem. If the kobolds attack in melee, they take Acid damage.

Kobolds mine constantly, and are often the source of a Dragon's hoard in the first place. I very much see the idea of them bribing the PC's with magic items (plot significant or otherwise) as entirely appropriate.

As long as they...you know...leave. ^_^

[Godskook]

The summon elemental is not a 'win button' for scouting, it has weaknesses:

1.The elemental has to stay within 30ft of the caster(Well, not quite, but close). You prevent the caster from being near the walls, you prevent the elemental too.

2.Earth elementals can't move through metal. Either (a)your kobolds expect earth elementals, and thus installed metal in their tunnels or (b)they live in a place made of metal. Either shuts down the earth elemental's tricks entirely.

3.Traps that are triggered manually are far more useful than ones that are triggered automatically. Tucker's Kobolds would've learned that by now. This prevents the elemental from being a trap monkey.

4.Murder Holes: If made of metal, the elementals won't have any more luck than the halflings, which is roughly none.

[erikun]

@ ^ : Air Elementals can pass through metal murder holes without problem, although they're still limited to 30' from the caster.


The only way I see Tucker's Kobolds "winning" is through an elaborate Xanatos Gambit, where the PCs set off something to kill themselves. Something like lining the floor with oil, running to kegs of gunpowder underneath - one fireball, and BOOM!!! - or intentionally destablize the ceiling, so that an Earthquake collapses everything onto the PCs.

Depending on level, that may not even stop the party, though. Someone with a Teleport + Raise Dead contingency will come out alive, and can just True Resurrect the rest of the party from home. Then they'll come back and destroy the cave system outright, then dig up whatever treasure was inside. :smalltongue:

[Frosty]

The summon elemental is not a 'win button' for scouting, it has weaknesses:

1.The elemental has to stay within 30ft of the caster(Well, not quite, but close). You prevent the caster from being near the walls, you prevent the elemental too.

2.Earth elementals can't move through metal. Either (a)your kobolds expect earth elementals, and thus installed metal in their tunnels or (b)they live in a place made of metal. Either shuts down the earth elemental's tricks entirely.

3.Traps that are triggered manually are far more useful than ones that are triggered automatically. Tucker's Kobolds would've learned that by now. This prevents the elemental from being a trap monkey.

4.Murder Holes: If made of metal, the elementals won't have any more luck than the halflings, which is roughly none.

Actually, with a RUN action or at least a double move, the Elementals will be able trigger traps far ahead. They wink out at the end of the turn right? But for scouting, it does have its weaknesses. Prying eyes will work though.

Also, the entire party can look like Elementals as well through Illusion Magic. How will the kobolds know which ones to shoot?

Now, as these are likely non-magical bolts, how will the kobolds kee the caster away from the walls with his Protection from Arrows once he sees a lot of bolts? And hell, can the kobolds hit the AC of the PCs? Even the Wizard has over 20 AC.

[Tiki Snakes]

Actually, with a RUN action or at least a double move, the Elementals will be able trigger traps far ahead. They wink out at the end of the turn right? But for scouting, it does have its weaknesses. Prying eyes will work though.

Also, the entire party can look like Elementals as well through Illusion Magic. How will the kobolds know which ones to shoot?

Now, as these are likely non-magical bolts, how will the kobolds kee the caster away from the walls with his Protection from Arrows once he sees a lot of bolts? And hell, can the kobolds hit the AC of the PCs? Even the Wizard has over 20 AC.

3 to 4 attacks per pc per round, minimum. That's about a 4/20 chance of automatically hitting each pc every round, (and a very good chance of hitting at least one PC each round)

Yeah, they'd struggle to tell which the real pc's where for a while, but if only a small group of elementals don't dissapear each round...
And as for protection from arrows, well, doesn't do much about being stabbed via murder hole from above and below, does it?

[Frosty]

3 to 4 attacks per pc per round, minimum. That's about a 4/20 chance of automatically hitting each pc every round, (and a very good chance of hitting at least one PC each round)

Yeah, they'd struggle to tell which the real pc's where for a while, but if only a small group of elementals don't dissapear each round...
And as for protection from arrows, well, doesn't do much about being stabbed via murder hole from above and below, does it?

The Dragon Shaman takes care of that. One of the auras does damage to melee attackers. True. They'll roll 20s eventually. They'll also critically fumble an equal amount though (one of our houserules. Roll 1. Must roll again. for possibility of fumble)

The question is, can the kobolds wear down the party quicker than the party can destroy the traps and destroy the tunnels? If there's not enough space, the Warblade can just do one of the Stone Dragon ignore hardness strikes over and over and create room. Would it be hard for the PCs to systematically dismantle the lair to get to the Kobolds? With spells like Stone to Mud, they can really mess up the tunnel systems too.

Once a hole is created, the wizard can just start fireballing or Fiery Bursting into the tunnel. Spreads are dangerous. Cover doesn't do much. The kobolds will need to vacate the area as soon as the Warblade punches a hole.

[Godskook]

Actually, with a RUN action or at least a double move, the Elementals will be able trigger traps far ahead. They wink out at the end of the turn right? But for scouting, it does have its weaknesses. Prying eyes will work though.

Prying Eyes has nothing to do with that feat.


Also, the entire party can look like Elementals as well through Illusion Magic. How will the kobolds know which ones to shoot?

Does it matter? Spread the love around, and you'll waste the caster's actions summoning more.

Besides, if the elemental from the feat is sitting amongst the party, he's been reduced from a scout to a dummy-target.


Now, as these are likely non-magical bolts, how will the kobolds kee the caster away from the walls with his Protection from Arrows once he sees a lot of bolts? And hell, can the kobolds hit the AC of the PCs? Even the Wizard has over 20 AC.

That's entirely non-feat related issues. My point was to get through the feat, not the caster.

[Tiki Snakes]

The Dragon Shaman takes care of that. One of the auras does damage to melee attackers. True. They'll roll 20s eventually. They'll also critically fumble an equal amount though (one of our houserules. Roll 1. Must roll again. for possibility of fumble)

The question is, can the kobolds wear down the party quicker than the party can destroy the traps and destroy the tunnels? If there's not enough space, the Warblade can just do one of the Stone Dragon ignore hardness strikes over and over and create room. Would it be hard for the PCs to systematically dismantle the lair to get to the Kobolds? With spells like Stone to Mud, they can really mess up the tunnel systems too.

Once a hole is created, the wizard can just start fireballing or Fiery Bursting into the tunnel. Spreads are dangerous. Cover doesn't do much. The kobolds will need to vacate the area as soon as the Warblade punches a hole.


By the sounds of it, they won't be able to hold the PC's unless the pc's panic.

Thing is, that's when they either break out the shiny shiny bribes, or it all goes a bit Dwarf Fortress. Collapsing things, flooding things(with or without lava), and so on. Accompanied by lots of running away and not being there any-more.

It depends slightly on why the pc's are there in the first place, too.

[Guancyto]

Tucker's Kobolds don't work very well for a party optimized for ToH or with a party with the sort of goals that one would take going into Tomb of Horrors.

The original TK worked because the party wasn't geared toward fighting them; the wizard prepared Fireball spells that had trouble in tight corridors, for instance. They also had the goal of bypassing the kobolds to get to other things, so they weren't spending their important resources on killing them.

They were also not 3.5e; a collection of readied actions, adamantine reach weapons, cloud spells, zone control, size reduction and easy healing will massacre the little buggers. Heck, a single Cloudkill will take out more than you're probably willing to calculate.

[Tehnar]

I would offer this humble advise:

Don't let your PCs dig corridors through solid rock with adamantine weapons (or similar). Busting down a wall is ok, but anything over 5 ft they should use profession(miner) checks.

Let kobolds activate the traps manually. Sure they see 4-5 elemental creatures coming into their lair, but one creature always seems to go out in front to check. The kobolds wait for that one to give the all clear signal and then pull the level that arms the traps. That scouting elemental might have walked over that corridor, but when the rest of the party follows: the traps are set and its 20 different types of trouble for them.

Bugs, garbage, disease, poison, mud, liquid, smoke and fire are all things kobolds can use from far away to slow down the PCs while they make modifications to their existing lair. Flood their corridors, make them make saves vs disease. If they want set some things on fire remember smoke dangers, place pockets of CO (CO2), bad air, or poison gasses in tunnels or cause just plain deadfalls the party has to dig through. A simple fancy stone door that is barred from other side can take up hours of the PCs time to get through.

[AlexanderRM]

Depending on level, that may not even stop the party, though. Someone with a Teleport + Raise Dead contingency will come out alive, and can just True Resurrect the rest of the party from home. Then they'll come back and destroy the cave system outright, then dig up whatever treasure was inside. :smalltongue:

To be honest, from what I've heard about Tomb of Horrors, I'd expect that a truly prepared party of that type would have collapse-the-caves-without-going-inside as their automatic strategy without even trying the traditional approach.



Oh yeah, as Geesi mentioned, just dump a bunch of cloudkills into the caves. It's not quite as good as destroying the whole thing- you still have automated traps, and some Kobolds might survive- but they wouldn't have to be concerned about damaging any loot or whatever. They could, alternatively, use Etheral Jaunt for scouting out the caves, though that wouldn't kill the Kobolds... yes, you use Etheral jaunt to figure out the layout of the caves and thus assure a 100% kill rate with the cloudkills. Perfect!

[Raum]

Against a paranoid party like that, what can those kobolds do to adapt and kill the party?Kill the party? What makes you think the kobolds want to kill them? Sure, they'd be happy if they got lucky and did, but killing was never the point of Tucker's Kobolds. Go back and read the original story again if you believe otherwise.

Tucker's Kobolds used theft, harassing attacks, sniping, hit and run, and manually triggered 'traps' to harry intruders into leaving. They kept intruders from resting in their territory. They made meals of any beasts of burden they could kill. They profited off whatever they could steal or cause to be dropped. They didn't kill. After all, all they wanted was to be left alone. It's just a matter of making digging you out, or even staying in your territory, far more effort than could possibly be gained from it.

[Frosty]

Right, but what can those kobolds do against a party determined to extinguish the kobolds? They might even leave someone outside to get the kobolds that try to escape! The party knows about a kobold lair, and have enough architectural knowledge to not be wholly unprepared...and of course, are paranoid like it's going out of style.

Tehnar: The smoke and flooding are good ideas if the entire party isn't immune to needing the breathe. also, barred doors don't last long since the Warblade can just bypass hardness with his attacks. The problem is the re-usable, hardness-ignoring damage dealing they have, combined, with a healthy dose of "anything we don't trust, we'll smash just like in the ToH" mentality.

[Tiki Snakes]

Right, but what can those kobolds do against a party determined to extinguish the kobolds? They might even leave someone outside to get the kobolds that try to escape! The party knows about a kobold lair, and have enough architectural knowledge to not be wholly unprepared...and of course, are paranoid like it's going out of style.

Tehnar: The smoke and flooding are good ideas if the entire party isn't immune to needing the breathe. also, barred doors don't last long since the Warblade can just bypass hardness with his attacks. The problem is the re-usable, hardness-ignoring damage dealing they have, combined, with a healthy dose of "anything we don't trust, we'll smash just like in the ToH" mentality.

Kobolds are MORE paranoid and for good reason. They can also squeeze as a tiny creature if they need to, if we're using the Web enhancement.

You reckon the pc's have the time to find and plug every single bolt-hole and escape route? :)

[Bob the Urgh]

The problem with making a new door is that the pcs will have to put the dirt and stone somewhere. I agree with the profesion (miner) checks too, otherwise the pcs will cause that part of the tunnel to collapse on them.

[FoE]

The kobolds forego traps once they see it won't work on the PCs and just use run-and-gun tactics on the heroes (ie. firing arrows through murder holes while dousing the tunnels in burning pitch to obscure the party's vision) That's actually part of what made the original Tucker's Kobolds scenario so dangerous; instead of just rushing out to meet the PCs, the kobolds would strike quickly and move on, repeating until the PCs slowly ran out of resources.

If the PCs still prove too strong, the kobolds cut their losses, abandon their home and collapse the dungeon's exits and entrances.

[Jergmo]

Boatmurdered Kobolds. RELEASE THE MAGMA!! :smallfurious:

[Frosty]

Hmm...what's to prevent the heros from collapsing the kobold's home on the kobolds instead? Possibly from the outside depending on the scrolls they can get a hold of? This is the PCs trying to clear out a kobold infestation of the lands. They've heard stories about many other adventurers not making it back. Part of the reason they're paranoid.

[Eorran]

I wonder if you're getting too hung up on the specifics of Tucker's Kobolds. Do they have to be kobolds? What reason does the party have to tackle this nest of creatures?
If the party's specifically geared towards the task of destroying a bunch of small pests in holes, this scenario doesn't work really well. The more general point of Tucker's Kobolds, as I understand it, was to use intelligent tactics that the PCs weren't expecting.

In the case that the PCs are expecting all these tactics, do something different. Do the kobolds have an ally to help in case a determined band wants to flush them out? How big a warren do they have?
Imagining myself as one of the kobolds in charge of the defense, after determining the PCs were geared and determined to wipe me out, I'd evac. Keep in mind that there would never just be a single evac route. I would also collapse everything I could just to slow the party down.

Really, from the equipment and abilities you've described, the kobolds need magic tricks to survive this. Give it to them.

[awa]

readied actions and a good spot and listen checks vrs a basic kobolds terrible hide check should make sniping largely useless the pcs will hear the kobolds moving in the murder hole and maby throw some fire of their own in there.

If you give the kobold enough levels or items to be able to effectively sneak up on the pcs then its no longer tuckers kobolds.

[Frosty]

I wonder if you're getting too hung up on the specifics of Tucker's Kobolds. Do they have to be kobolds? What reason does the party have to tackle this nest of creatures?
If the party's specifically geared towards the task of destroying a bunch of small pests in holes, this scenario doesn't work really well. The more general point of Tucker's Kobolds, as I understand it, was to use intelligent tactics that the PCs weren't expecting.

In the case that the PCs are expecting all these tactics, do something different. Do the kobolds have an ally to help in case a determined band wants to flush them out? How big a warren do they have?
Imagining myself as one of the kobolds in charge of the defense, after determining the PCs were geared and determined to wipe me out, I'd evac. Keep in mind that there would never just be a single evac route. I would also collapse everything I could just to slow the party down.

Really, from the equipment and abilities you've described, the kobolds need magic tricks to survive this. Give it to them.

Well, the PCs have heard the pleas of local villagers asking ofr help against bold kobold raids on settlements. The villagers have hired local, lower level adventurers to take care of the problem, but only one of them has ever returned and only lived long enough to tell a tale of HORROR and ingenious traps before dying. The PCs, determined to stop this kobold threat, have armed themselves to the teeth, and are going in there with a "we'll get them no matter what" mentality. The kobolds, meanwhile, *do* have some low level gear since they've defeated wave after wave of low-level NPC adventurers.

The the kobolds evac and have to flea the region, the PCs have won at least a partial victory, securing some sort of safety for the region until the kobolds decide to return. If they're smart enough to have scouts with Overland Flight cast as lookouts, they might be able to track down where the survivors went and go there to finish the kobolds off.

[Jergmo]

readied actions and a good spot and listen checks vrs a basic kobolds terrible hide check should make sniping largely useless the pcs will hear the kobolds moving in the murder hole and maby throw some fire of their own in there.

If you give the kobold enough levels or items to be able to effectively sneak up on the pcs then its no longer tuckers kobolds.

An average kobold has a Hide modifier of +5 and in the warren, they get additional circumstance bonuses. Horrible, eh? :smallconfused:

[Frosty]

An average kobold has a Hide modifier of +5 and in the warren, they get additional circumstance bonuses. Horrible, eh? :smallconfused:

Probably decent enough to hide half of the time from the Wizard, with his 10 Wis and all...

[FoE]

Hmm...what's to prevent the heros from collapsing the kobold's home on the kobolds instead? Possibly from the outside depending on the scrolls they can get a hold of? This is the PCs trying to clear out a kobold infestation of the lands. They've heard stories about many other adventurers not making it back.

Then you are well and truly screwed. There is no counter-measure for PCs who refuse to participate in your adventure and "burn the forest," so to speak.

On the other hand, when they get back to town, have the NPCs berate them for collapsing the caves while the kobolds may have still had captives trapped inside.

[Skorj]

I think the legends of Tucker's Kobolds has obscured their true purpose and meaning. They aren't trying to win a battle in the sense of defeating a party. They're trying to win a battle in the sense of making it more expensive for the party to continue fighting than it's worth. Tucker's Kobolds have read their Clausewitz, and are born understanding asymmetric warfare.

The point of Tucker's Kobolds is to be expensive.

Every round in the kobolds lair, the party should either need to cast a spell, or take some damage. That is all. How many elementals can the party summon in a day? There are at least that many simple traps that the "elemental mine deterctor" is a fine solution to. Great move by the party. Clever. Nicely done. Now you're out of elementals. What next?

The kobolds aren't intended to be an impassible barrier, simply a toll booth. If the players have to get past them to get to the "real" dungeon levels, the party can, but they'll have spent a significant percentage of the day's spells just to pass the kobolds. If the kobolds have something valuable, the party can eventually get it, but at a cost much higher than simply buying it. If the party becomes enraged and tries only to exterminate the kobolds, they stage a fighting retreat, leading the party past every convenient trap, then simply running (thorugh tiny tunnels). Whatever the party's objective, they spend a lot of time and effort, and at the end of the day they have very little to show for it.

What makes Tucker's Kobolds legendary is the parties that lose their cool, panic, run into an unexplored area, and die. To kobolds. Not kobolds with anti-magic stones or anything else that excuses a TPK. Just rocks, oil, trash, spikes, and tripwires. Just traps that do a few dice of damage, and can (individually) easily be bypassed with a spell. What makes them so frightening is the shame in being defeated. :smallbiggrin:

[Frosty]

It's not expensive when they have infinite elementals (reserve feat), infinite fast healing (Dragon Shaman), and infinite attacks (reserve feat + swinging swords all day long).

They need not use any finite resource in this fight. Also, the objective of the party is to make the kobolds go away from these lands. Destroying them is BETTER, but making them go away is also good enough.


Then you are well and truly screwed. There is no counter-measure for PCs who refuse to participate in your adventure and "burn the forest," so to speak.

On the other hand, when they get back to town, have the NPCs berate them for collapsing the caves while the kobolds may have still had captives trapped inside.

Ooh, THAT might work. The kobolds could use the captives as bargaining chips to make the PCs go away.

[Strawman]

One of the best things to do is split the party up. With a party as paranoid as yours, I would try to make it seem advantageous for the party to split up.

Set up two large chambers, and six hallways between the chambers. Each chamber has certain traps designed for basic types of adventurers (anti-caster, anti-tank, etc.) so that the party does not overly feel it has been designed specifically for them. Kobolds run from one chamber to the next, and back again. They keep using different tunnels. Have the kobolds move so randomly that the party has to move down all six hallways at once to eliminate them.

The kobolds used holes in the wall to make ranged attack at people in other tunnels, but they avoid being in front of the holes themselves. This makes it so if the party is only in one tunnel, there is nothing stopping kobolds in the tunnel next to them from pelting them with ranged attacks.

Of course, each party member will go in a different tunnel than the one with traps that are bad for them. You'll have to have a plan for how the kobolds handle them once seperated.

Also, check out http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121979

[Skorj]

Wow, I'd forgotten how absurd 3.5x can become. Kill em all and start over, says I.

[Jack_Simth]

Every round in the kobolds lair, the party should either need to cast a spell, or take some damage. That is all. How many elementals can the party summon in a day? There are at least that many simple traps that the "elemental mine deterctor" is a fine solution to. Great move by the party. Clever. Nicely done. Now you're out of elementals. What next?

With the Summon Elemental Reserve Feat (Complete Mage), which the OP specified his party is using, one caster can summon as many elementals in a day as there are rounds in a day (14,400 rounds = 1 day * 24 hours/day*60 minutes/hour*10 rounds/minute). Two casters can summon twice as many. That's the point of the OP asking. They don't run out of elementals. The Tomb of Horrors mentality that the OP is referencing is a build I've used - you find a way to do direct-damage at-will (Fiery Burst, Acidic Splatter, or several other ways - again, both reserve feats from Complete Mage), a way to detect magic at will (Detect Magic and Permanency, Arcane Sight and Permanency, the Detect Magic Reserve Feat from Complete Mage, or several other ways). For The Tomb, it works by sending elementals repeatedly ahead to trip the traps, while watching for magic, and then simply obliterating the traps with direct damage. Over & Over & Over again, because all three effects are at-will (do note I'm simplifying here, there's a bit more to the Trapsmith Wizard, but it's not usually relevant outside The Tomb).


The kobolds aren't intended to be an impassible barrier, simply a toll booth. If the players have to get past them to get to the "real" dungeon levels, the party can, but they'll have spent a significant percentage of the day's spells just to pass the kobolds. If the kobolds have something valuable, the party can eventually get it, but at a cost much higher than simply buying it. If the party becomes enraged and tries only to exterminate the kobolds, they stage a fighting retreat, leading the party past every convenient trap, then simply running (thorugh tiny tunnels). Whatever the party's objective, they spend a lot of time and effort, and at the end of the day they have very little to show for it.
This is why Reserve Feats were mentioned in the OP. They don't run out. The Reserve Feats basically let a Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer, Druid, or other caster be a minor warlock - "casting" things over and over again with no limit.

The determining event here ultimately becomes:
Can Tucker's Kobolds strike at the party enough to overwhelm their free healing capacity?

The party is getting constantly hit by polearms or rocks shoved through murder holes by the kobolds? Okay... but those require attack rolls, and do damage based on the kobold's size and strength. If the party's AC is such that the kobolds need a nat-20 to hit (not unreasonable at tenth when facing 1st level kobolds), then they're averaging maybe a point or two of damage per party member per turn. If someone in the party picked up a single level of Dragon Shaman for the Vigor aura, everyone in the party gets fast healing 1 whenever they're below half HP - which means once the party realizes they're up against chaff, they can simply soak it up at no cost. Likewise, if someone in the party picks up the Touch of Healing Reserve Feat (Complete Champion), then the Cleric in the party can heal wounds (so long as the target is below 50% hp) at no cost - to the exact same effect. Likewise, if someone in the party is using DMM(Persistent Spell) on Mass Lesser Vigor (or Vigorous Circle, or whatever), then the party gets Fast Healing with no cap. If any of these healing methods (or a couple other uncapped versions - this list is not exhaustive) are in place, then the Kobold's only way to win would be to collapse the tunnels on top of them... and even that won't work if the party invested in surviving without air (which is in the Tomb of Horrors Trapsmith Wizard protocol).

If there are no uncapped healing methods in place, and the party is merely using wands of cure light wounds and/or converted spells (or similar limited resources), then the kobolds have a much better chance - because every wound the kobolds inflict costs a spell slot and/or a few gp to undo, and the party will eventually run out.

[Tehnar]

For the stone door that the Warblade destroys; make it so it is trapped. On damaging the door, a cloudkill/enervation/some other nasty effect gets released.

And living at 50% hp in a dungeon is not all that great. Many traps bypass the elemental trap detector. Off the top of my head a tripwire trigger trap of reciprocal gyre, with the tripwire set higher then the elemental. Eating Xd12 damage when at 50% health is not something you want to do.

You just have to get creative in your trap trigger and delivery systems. Play with your PCs minds. Make them think there is a trap anywhere, and such a trap they can't detect with their elemental.

Natural hazards are also a great way to neutralize the party. Gray sludge, green slime, ravines, fast moving underwater rivers that force swim checks with pirrahnas. Think like a kobold. There is not too much work to be done when defending your home against murdering psychopats.

[Tiki Snakes]

Also, really, if you're putting the Kobolds up against such a party, they'd better break out the poison darts. Because by the sound of it, Damage alone isn't going to cut it.

[awa]

i think the entire idea of trying to use these tactics on this party seems almost pointless this is what the party is optimized to do the kobolds with this many limitations cant win. Tuckers kobolds works on arrogant parties not not parties who assume everything is a trap.

[Deadmeat.GW]

Hum, why not ward the area versus earth elementals?

There are a bunch of ward spells from other D20 games like the Lot5R where ward magic is available and does damage to specific things or to things that call up specific things...

Ok, low-ish damage like a couple of D6 but if the wizard/cleric takes 2D6 damage for EVERY elemental they TRY to summon (and the summoning is not automatic due to the way the wards work, easy probably for them but not automatic) they are going to start taking an awful lot of damage fast.

Improved wards could do up to 10D6 damage though (if you focuse the wards on doing damage instead of making them more effective in other ways), unlimited fast healing would be not that good against that.

Ok, summon unlimited elementals and take unlimited times 10D6 damage...

Spend a feat on change the damage from single target to area of effect and the whole party takes this damage (in which case I would go with the lower end of the warding magic just to make them wary about summoning stuff).

Things will go bad fast yet if they are careful they still can get to the Kobolds and try and fight them.
On top, perhaps once in three times they summon elementals they are not getting any elementals but just take a bunch of damage for trying.

Given that now the whole place is warded (and wards can be dispelled with disjunction but not dispelled otherwise which given that you have to cast the disjunction for pretty much every sphere of the dungeon you end up needing an awful lot of disjunctions to work your way through.) detect magic at will is not going to be quite so useful.
Everything is going to show up as magical.

It would be in keeping with the territorial behavior of the kobolds, it would be possible to fight your way through and it would be tying in with the idea that they are trying to make the assault too costly to be worthwhile.

Edit: Or better, against all elementals...makes it more difficult to cast but it stops masses of fire or air elementals being used also.

[Radar]

(...)
Natural hazards are also a great way to neutralize the party. Gray sludge, green slime, ravines, fast moving underwater rivers that force swim checks with pirrahnas. Think like a kobold. There is not too much work to be done when defending your home against murdering psychopats.
Think Indiana (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgnlu-kpdOs) Jones (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFEjIO8zTVE&feature=related).
Pay attention to:
1. Rolling boulder (and halls constructed for the sole purpose of using it - good for cave rafting too :smallsmile:).
2. Trap with a delayed trigger (the golden figure weight trigger).
3. Large ammounts of small, poisonous spiders (could be bugs, snakes or other creatures). Swarms are good for distracting and irritating adventurers.
4. Collapsable ceilings.
5. Collapsable floors with a puzzle to go safely through. Leave false hints on the way - even make the PCs see the kobolds run away through it in a specific manner. Yet the kobolds could only pass safely, because they are lighter then regular medium-sized PCs.
6. Crafty use of paintings to conceal things (leap of faith scene) - a hefty addition to a Spot DC check.
7. Cursed loot (false Grails galore).

For further references see Castle Heterodyne (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20070725), with special emphasis on "move/pick up an item" type of a trigger.

You could also incorporate traps, which vital structural parts are holding other traps back (destroy one of them, get the other one in your face), fake locked doors, that are support pillars or real locked doors, that lead to a water/acid/lava/ filled caves (or just a cesspool). For the flood trap it would be good to leave natural structures in the caves (stalactites and stalagmites) and mix the fluid with solid objects, so that PCs would constantly bump into thing during their fun water/acid/lava slide. :smallbiggrin: It's also a good time to deploy classic sharp pokers of death.

[Kylarra]

Hum, why not ward the area versus earth elementals?
(...)
Improved wards of that type make it no longer tucker's kobolds, but rather, generic ToH variant made to screw over party #<X>.

[Killer Angel]

I wonder if you're getting too hung up on the specifics of Tucker's Kobolds. Do they have to be kobolds?

If the group is Epic, you can always use Tucker's Balors...


It's not expensive when they have infinite elementals (reserve feat), infinite fast healing (Dragon Shaman), and infinite attacks (reserve feat + swinging swords all day long).


Then, this is not a challenge. And the pcs take no xp.

But I don't think this is true: after all, the elementals must stay in the vicinance of the caster. Give the kobolds a little time, and the fire elementals will start to "disable" traps full of flasks of oil. And the Air elementals will spring traps connected to a spherical stone a la Indiana Jones...

[RagnaroksChosen]

To be honest you can still throw tuckers kobolds against the party.

First once the kobolds relize that this p[arrty is hunting them i would have them send out scounts to look for a new warren(village sewers are ususaly nice)
and have the warren prepare to move to one of the new locations at a moments notice...

2nd. Those reserve feats require other spells. That in it self is a resource. If you can "force" the players to use those spells for other things then that will be good.

Desise is good. As well as posion and or swarms... Don't forget about assisting others
5-6 kobolds can strike fear in higher level players... using reach weapons from murder holes. on the first round jump...
Example
lets say 6 kobolds 1 has a posioned reach weapon the others just have reach weapons... first 5 use aid another on the 6th(the one with posion) over all as long as the 5 hit an ac of ten they add +2 per kobold to the 6th one. this is great for delivering poison then have them fade away.after that attack...


As far as the warblade thing goes. Yes stone dragon can tare through tunnels the problem with doing that is weaken the structure of the tunnel and increase the chance for collapes.

[Tiki Snakes]

To be honest you can still throw tuckers kobolds against the party.

First once the kobolds relize that this p[arrty is hunting them i would have them send out scounts to look for a new warren(village sewers are ususaly nice)
and have the warren prepare to move to one of the new locations at a moments notice...

2nd. Those reserve feats require other spells. That in it self is a resource. If you can "force" the players to use those spells for other things then that will be good.

Desise is good. As well as posion and or swarms... Don't forget about assisting others
5-6 kobolds can strike fear in higher level players... using reach weapons from murder holes. on the first round jump...
Example
lets say 6 kobolds 1 has a posioned reach weapon the others just have reach weapons... first 5 use aid another on the 6th(the one with posion) over all as long as the 5 hit an ac of ten they add +2 per kobold to the 6th one. this is great for delivering poison then have them fade away.after that attack...


As far as the warblade thing goes. Yes stone dragon can tare through tunnels the problem with doing that is weaken the structure of the tunnel and increase the chance for collapes.

With the races of the dragon in play, the poison spear weilder could have a 1/day use of true strike. :)

[RagnaroksChosen]

With the races of the dragon in play, the poison spear weilder could have a 1/day use of true strike. :)

Mabye all 5 of them due... that is a good point those 1st level kobolds become more bad ass when they all have 1st level spells at there disposal. including the warriors

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Improved wards of that type make it no longer tucker's kobolds, but rather, generic ToH variant made to screw over party #<X>.

Not necessarily. Magic circle stops summoned creatures (since elementals are neutral, any version would stop them) and kobolds favor sorcery, so it wouldn't be out of place to have quite a few areas with magic circles to stop that sort of thing. Of course, making the entire dungeon like that would be a cop-out, but warding certain traps would easily fit.

[Frosty]

True they could. Are poison DCs that the kobolds can afford usually high enough for PCs to care? I mean, they need to coat a LOT of spears with poison.

And again, how are they planning on hitting the PCs with melee weapons without being hit back? If your target is in line of effect to you, you are in line of effect to the target. If they've got cover, it just means a cover AC bonus.

Poison darts are probably a better idea.

[RagnaroksChosen]

True they could. Are poison DCs that the kobolds can afford usually high enough for PCs to care? I mean, they need to coat a LOT of spears with poison.

And again, how are they planning on hitting the PCs with melee weapons without being hit back? If your target is in line of effect to you, you are in line of effect to the target. If they've got cover, it just means a cover AC bonus.

Poison darts are probably a better idea.

I figure a kobold sticking a spear or reach weapon through an opening in the wall would prevent a person from hitting back... not saying that the kobold wouldn't take penalties but all they have to hit is a dc of 10 to assist...
And ya i forgot abotu the DC thing... so that makes it kinda moot but im sure there are other things that can be delived via spear point that are bad.

[tyckspoon]

Not necessarily. Magic circle stops summoned creatures (since elementals are neutral, any version would stop them) and kobolds favor sorcery, so it wouldn't be out of place to have quite a few areas with magic circles to stop that sort of thing. Of course, making the entire dungeon like that would be a cop-out, but warding certain traps would easily fit.

This is true, but warding key junctions with a Magic Circle is a far cry from having the whole warren covered by an effect that hampers summoning attempts and causes damage to people who try in the manner Deadmeat suggested. Magic Circles are on the upper end of what a Tucker's group might be able to place and still remain authentically Tuckerish; zone-wide permanent wards against summons are definitely not.


True they could. Are poison DCs that the kobolds can afford usually high enough for PCs to care? I mean, they need to coat a LOT of spears with poison.

No, but you're looking at make them roll saves until they flop a 1 anyway. I would have the kobolds keep a nest or three of Tiny Vipers to milk for venom (a few kobolds with Handle Animal ranks and some with Craft Poison/Alchemy to fix it into a usable weapon poison should do the job.) It's only DC 10, but 1d6 Con damage/1d6 Con damage is a very threatening thing, and the party should be running into it on basically everything that is at all capable of delivering it.

[Frosty]

Not necessarily. Magic circle stops summoned creatures (since elementals are neutral, any version would stop them) and kobolds favor sorcery, so it wouldn't be out of place to have quite a few areas with magic circles to stop that sort of thing. Of course, making the entire dungeon like that would be a cop-out, but warding certain traps would easily fit.

Very nice! But then the Detect-Magic at-will from the casters will see it and it will scream, "Fire Acidic Splash at me now! Then have the skillmonkey fly over carefully. Probably trying to fiarm the trap using his 10ft-long tools. They are useful and from Dungeonscape."

The main problem is how to hide traps that are dangerous enough and have the traps not be magical. I guess Nystul's Magic Aura works, but isn't that only for objects? If you ward an entire area, I don't think you can hide that.

[Radar]

(...)
The main problem is how to hide traps that are dangerous enough and have the traps not be magical. I guess Nystul's Magic Aura works, but isn't that only for objects? If you ward an entire area, I don't think you can hide that.
Rolling boulders or flooding traps (the rushung river type) can be dangerous and can only be heard, when they are allready in work (since the actual mechanism is around the next corner or two) and if you plan the hallways right, they will be too deep into the trap before realising, that things went wrong. This will at least force them to expand Ethereal Jaunts/Teleports and such.

Elemental scouts won't be usefull at all, if the traps have either delayed triggers, triggers put in a different place (say a 30ft deeper into the hallway) then the trap itself or are operated manually.

Blasting every encountered trap won't be a viable tactic, if parts of the dungeon are made into incinerators with an unhealthy dose of fuel lying around (not necessarily in plain sight) and bulkheads, to cut the way out. Thay can probably soak 1d6 per round, but obscured vision, choking and CO poisoning is not to be taken lightely (if they have ongoing breathing magic, then scratch the last two).

Traps situated on a floor can be easily hidden, if a particular part of the cave is covered with sand or mud (a feet or two would be more then enough). Actually it can be a good thing anyway - the heavier you are, the harder it is to walk through it. And weight activated pit traps won't be triggered be your trusty 21ft telescopic pole. Nets and snares are loads of fun as well (i don't know, how efficent they would be in the D&D mechanics).

Another thing to note: the deeper the party will go, the more desperate and final traps they will encounter. No sane person will collaps his home each and every time, someone attacks it. Kobolds would use those measures only after learning, they have to cut their looses and regroup in some other place. Then, their goal would be to stall the adventurers and preferably topple the whole hill/mountain/whatnot on their heads after every kobold is safely evacuated. Also if the kobolds do have hostages, they might try negotiations with the PCs.

edit: make the kobold release swarms of some mud dwelling creatures into the mud lined caves for an additional kick. Since kobolds are scaled, they could also infest their caves with mosquitos without any harm done to themselves.

[Yukitsu]

After they bypass the first set of traps, have a team of kobolds move in a sub route bypass (air vents, probably) to get behind the party, and collapse the tunnel behind them. Have them reinforce the collapse so they can't simply traipse through.

Next encounter is a dozen kobols with gas masks and fire/smoke sticks/smoke sticks which are on fire. They start that all up and flee.

As preporatory work, the party should have gone past 30 rooms that are pitch black, due to pitch coated walls, floors and cielings.

The party will survive the fire. The kobolds collapse all the vents and the forward path that the adventurures are in.

The party dies of asphyxiation.

As a note, dimensional jaunt will not bypass the collapsed sections, as it should have insufficient range, and IIRC requires line of effect.

Gaseous form would help them survive in a smoke filled, oxygenless room, but should not let them escape, so long as the kobolds are refining the collapses.

A reiteration as to why the necklace of adaptation is my favourite item ever.

Edit: If it's 10th level party, they have to hide an invisible banner of dimensional lock within the area. Flame proof it, and make it invisible.

[Another_Poet]

If the kobolds have some Illusion spells I think it would be good to disguise a few of themselves as some other race and work themselves into the party as NPCs (cohorts etc), then start murdering the PCs in their sleep.

Enchantment spells can aslo work nicely with this.

[Frosty]

Yukitsu, none of the party members need to breathe. Making the rooms pitch black would be annoying and possibly slow them down, but some of them have blindsense and scent, some have darkvision, and they can cast Darkvision without too much trouble. Only a 2nd level spell methinks.

Still, makes them expend some resources which is good.

Another_Poet: What makes you think the party is going to sleep there? They plan to be done within a few hours. And remember, they're paranoid, so they aren't trusting ANYBODY that comes up to them inside. If they rescue the hostages, the first thing they'll do is Dispel the hostages from a safe distance, and also using a Zone of Truth to make sure the hostages are who they are. The cleric may be paranoid enough at that point to actually use a True Seeing. He's high enough level to cast the spell. Remember: Tomb of Horrors-ready group.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

This is true, but warding key junctions with a Magic Circle is a far cry from having the whole warren covered by an effect that hampers summoning attempts and causes damage to people who try in the manner Deadmeat suggested. Magic Circles are on the upper end of what a Tucker's group might be able to place and still remain authentically Tuckerish; zone-wide permanent wards against summons are definitely not.

Oh, I know; that was my point--you can defend against summoned elementals (A) without coating the whole dungeon in anti-summon wards and (B) while staying true to the "crafty kobolds" theme rather than "kobolds that happen to be in an evil dungeon." Given 3e kobolds' emphasis on dragons and magic relative to 1e kobolds, I'd say 3e Tucker's kobolds can get away with using 3rd-level and lower sorcerer spells (as long as they're not directly offensive) and still keep the theme.


Very nice! But then the Detect-Magic at-will from the casters will see it and it will scream, "Fire Acidic Splash at me now! Then have the skillmonkey fly over carefully. Probably trying to fiarm the trap using his 10ft-long tools. They are useful and from Dungeonscape."

The main problem is how to hide traps that are dangerous enough and have the traps not be magical. I guess Nystul's Magic Aura works, but isn't that only for objects? If you ward an entire area, I don't think you can hide that.

This is where kobold trickery comes in. :smallbiggrin: Nystul's magic aura works on objects of up to 5 pounds and lasts 1 day/level. If you can make your traps solely of discrete objects of 5 pounds or less (arrow traps, pit spikes, etc.), you can magic them up to whatever degree desired--with sorcerers refreshing the spell occasionally--and detect magic is absolutely useless.

[Frosty]

So if they have at most...6th level Sorcerers, what kind of magic traps can they craft that will be effective against the party and get past their fast healing and such?

[Grynning]

Frosty, reading through this thread, I'm having a lot of trouble determining your purpose for posting it. Are you referring to a theoretical unkillable party, or do you actually have a group you are wanting to use this on? Are you actually looking for suggestions or are you trying to prove a point that a "ToH prepared" level 10 party can't be beaten even with excellent tactics?

It seems that every suggestion for the last three pages is being shot down with "Party can do x! Doesn't work! Nyeah Nyeah!!" If the party can't be beaten because they're a Schrodinger's party with an ability to counter everything...then they can't be beaten. The discussion is pointless. If this is an actual party, maybe you should clarify exactly what they have so someone can come up with a viable counter.

[Frosty]

I want to have enough pool-proof tactics to challenge and maybe even beat this party. So I'm thinking of every contingency the party might have.

[Grynning]

Well, but you basically said a ToH party will have a contingency for literally everything. So how are you expecting anyone to come up with tactics for under CR'ed critters to beat them without using a ton of magic?

[Frosty]

They have contingencies mostly for the following: lack of light. Lack of air. *some* have teleportation all day. Others only a few times a day. They have sources of infinite healing, and infinite expendable minions (although only one or two at a time). They can fly/levitate all day and not worry about pressure-activated traps. They can detect all magic unless Nystul's magic aura is applied. They will blast something if they think it's dangerous (infinite blasting thanks to Reserve feats) and if the skillmonkey can't figure it out OR the skillmonkey can't safety get in position to examine it. They have limited terrain-shaping spells, but they can SMASH all day long. Their skillmonkey is also adept at searching for secret doors. When they need to interact with objects, they have the elemental handle it and then they place it object into a Bag of Holding or Portable Hole so they can analyse it later.

These are the basics of what they can do. They've also got decent saves, but that's not surprising.

[Kyouhen]

Yukitsu, none of the party members need to breathe. Making the rooms pitch black would be annoying and possibly slow them down, but some of them have blindsense and scent, some have darkvision, and they can cast Darkvision without too much trouble. Only a 2nd level spell methinks.

Still, makes them expend some resources which is good.

Another_Poet: What makes you think the party is going to sleep there? They plan to be done within a few hours. And remember, they're paranoid, so they aren't trusting ANYBODY that comes up to them inside. If they rescue the hostages, the first thing they'll do is Dispel the hostages from a safe distance, and also using a Zone of Truth to make sure the hostages are who they are. The cleric may be paranoid enough at that point to actually use a True Seeing. He's high enough level to cast the spell. Remember: Tomb of Horrors-ready group.

This. This right here is the key. What you need to do is delay them as much as possible, which for Tucker's Kobolds is basically the point anyway. As soon as the Kobolds figure out how paranoid this party is, they'll start leaving suspicious things lying around. A random dagger sitting in the middle of an empty room. A strange mark on a wall. The party will waste it's time trying to find traps that aren't there while the Kobolds adjust their actual traps deeper down based on the methods the party's using to find traps. They're using an elemental scout? Use manual trigger traps. They're flying? Put the traps in doorways where they have to be near the ground, use traps that come from above, use poison gas. 10-foot poles? Put the trap 10 feet away from the trigger. They use the pole to poke a tile that's slightly raised only to find out they're sitting on top of the trap door. That's the advantage Tucker's Kobolds have over the Tomb of Horrors, they learn and adapt. The party will be looking for static traps, using the same methods every time they suspect an area's trapped. They won't be expecting the opponent to be learning from watching them search for traps and build ones tailored specifically to bypass that.

[Frosty]

True. If they take 20 in every room, the Kobolds will have lots of time to retreat to the next room and set something up. Not perfect, but every bit helps.

I think I'll have this be ToH mark II. TOH is static. Once you have a safe routine down, you're mostly fine. The only thing you hafta do is make the kobold warren BIG enough so the kobolds ahve enough time to learn about the enemies.

[Raum]

I want to have enough pool-proof tactics to challenge and maybe even beat this party. So I'm thinking of every contingency the party might have.It's difficult to provide specific tactics without knowing specifics. Here's some general advice: Use the terrain. Know the terrain modifiers and remember the kobolds have had lots of time to set it up to their advantage.
Make the kobolds' size an advantage. They should never leave small tunnels. If they're fighting someone twice their size without putting that person at a disadvantage, they've already lost.
Use cover and concealment. No one should ever have unobstructed LoS to a kobold.
Hit and run. Never hit from the same location twice in a row. Fire through a murder hole and sprint to the next to reload.
Use manually triggered 'traps'. Murder holes, arrow slits, levers in the kobold tunnels, or whatever. Don't passively wait for someone to set a trap off, trigger while they're still looking for it. (Note, the manually triggered traps easily solve your 'elemental trap finder' once the kobolds decide the elemental isn't there long enough to be a threat.)
Split the party. A sliding door, a dropping boulder, a rockfall, a collapsed tunnel...whatever it is the kobolds should be dropping it between party members.
Use your numbers. The only time they should ever melee a target is when they have a solo enemy split off from his friends. Then swarm him with numbers. (May want to brush up on the grapple rules.)
Use stealth. They (the party) should never be able to rest.
Use traps. Simple, even obvious, traps made by junior kobolds should be everywhere. More complex and manually triggered traps created by kobold elders should be at key points.
Use mining. The kobolds' ultimate tactic may well be collapsing a tunnel on top of any intruders. (Powerful enough PCs may well use this against the kobolds as well. But the kobolds are usually better miners and will probably win this type of conflict against anyone not using serious magic to collapse large areas at once.) If you're basing this off of Tucker's Kobolds, remember the kobolds have a warren of tiny tunnels in and around (use all three dimensions) the main full-sized tunnels. They shouldn't have to enter the larger tunnels at all...at least not until they grab whatever was dropped.
Most of all, remember this isn't static! The kobolds are watching each other as well as spying on any intruders. They're a tribe...the rumor mill is better than CNN. If a tactic doesn't work, switch it with another. If the intruders use magic to gain some downtime and rest, the kobolds should be using that time constructively. You know...collapse the room they cast Rope Trick in...or fill the room with fire / poison / oozes / whatever.

[Frosty]

I like that list. Query: What should the kobolds do to save themselves and their homes if the PCs decide to just flood the tunnels with water? If they want to, they can get the resources to do that. I hope they don't think of it.

[Raum]

I like that list. Query: What should the kobolds do to save themselves and their homes if the PCs decide to just flood the tunnels with water? If they want to, they can get the resources to do that. I hope they don't think of it.It shouldn't possible. This is a warren of tunnels in three dimensions after all. The most they could do is flood the lowest tunnels and then it drains out some other exit.

To succeed at flooding the tunnels, they'd have to do the following:
1. Find and seal all the exits.
2. Somehow seal the earth to prevent new exits / drains from being dug (flooding will take time).
3. Somehow prevent tunnels from being collapsed to block flooding.
4. Seal the tunnels to prevent seepage.
5. And finally, find or create a pressurized source of water capable of pushing water around, over, or through obstacles and collapsed tunnels.

Needless to say, this should not be an easy task.

[Rasilak]

Like pointed out many times before, your scenario is *not* Tucker's Kobolds. For the original scenario it is nearly vital that the players don't explicitly want to kill the kobolds (100% reasonable in the old D&Ds, because the Kobolds don't have ineresting treasure anyway, they just happen to be in your path). But still, the kobolds *designed* their traps to stop/chase away anyone determined to kill them (buying time to escape is only plan B, since building new warrens from scratch is darn expensive).
My thoughts on this:
- Have a lot of really mean traps near the entrance, but *don't* use them yet. Still, the Kobolds should always be able to collapse/block the entrance if they want to deny the attackers their reinforcements (absolutely vital against only doing a couple of rooms a day and then moving back out to heal).
- Drop parts of the ceiling to split the party (it could be built so that the Kobolds could pull the blocks up again and prepare the tunnels for the next intruders), then attack both sides (hopefully one doesn't have cheap healing anymore), and try to deny them the time to dig through.
- Like said before, extensive terraforming without Profession(miner)-checks is just asking to get the tunnels collapsed over your head.
- Cloudkills can be seriosly hampered by building very shallow U-bow like structures (filled with water) in some of the tunnels. This also slows down the players and diving might damage their equipment.
- Use a good mix of:
- - plainly visible (or easily detectable) traps
- - nearly undetectable traps
- - suspiciously looking things (that are completely harmless)
- - suspiciously empty rooms/corridors (also, harmless)
- Do the above while constantly harrassing the party
- Play with different materials:
- - Cover the dungeon floor/walls with pitch
- - Have some inches of mud on the floor, hide caltrops, snares, etc in it (but not everywhere!)
- - Dig some open pits in there - invisible because of the mud, but forces the players to swim (if the ceiling is low enough), have swarms of poisonous creatures (or oozes) in there
- - For no apparent reason, switch between flat walls and natural caves
- Have some rooms filled with water, and some inches of oil on top. If the players swim through, light the oil (sure, they can stay under water as long as they like - until it starts to boil). You can also do this with one of the U-bows.
- Have a closed door with a big lever on the wall next to it. The lever opens the door, no tricks. (Used it on my group in a trap-filled dungeon - stopped them for half an hour)
- Even if normal fire doesn't hurt them much, it probably damages their equipment. If you want to go crazy on it, construct part of the dungeon as a giant blast furnace - with them inside (nice alternative to lava, and can be done everywhere)

EDIT:
If your group is as paranoid as you say, they probably try to get back out once half their resources are depleted. So, make the way out harder than the way in (easiest done by letting them go in downhill). However, this is not perfectly reasonable from the kobolds' point of view - they just want to get rid of the players with as few fighting as possible.

[Yukitsu]

Yukitsu, none of the party members need to breathe. Making the rooms pitch black would be annoying and possibly slow them down, but some of them have blindsense and scent, some have darkvision, and they can cast Darkvision without too much trouble. Only a 2nd level spell methinks.

Still, makes them expend some resources which is good.



Mundane smoke can't be seen through, which still makes it hard to get out, as they can't teleport out without finding a hidden, invisible, probably nystulsed magic banner. At the very least, as written, this traps them in there. The pitch is not for the fact that it makes things dark, but rather, because when it burns it makes a lot of smoke.

If they persist in living in this cell, collapse the cell on them.

For the caveat that they may have earthglide abilities, you can always dust everything with lead. The high heat from the fire will melt the lead into the ground, preventing earthgliders from getting through.

[awa]

That would be amusing lots of random suspicious things like a chest in an empty room. I don't think a level one kobold warrior should every try and fight one of the pcs even if said pc is alone they will probably just get smashed. Collapsing tunnels is probably your best bet its something they could reasonable do even with out being hiring high level caster to make it and it can do enough damage to worry the party, plus it would be at least a little bit difficult to get out of

[Raum]

I think I'll have this be ToH mark II. TOH is static. Once you have a safe routine down, you're mostly fine. The only thing you hafta do is make the kobold warren BIG enough so the kobolds ahve enough time to learn about the enemies.Did some thinking...if the players 'knew' a bit less, you could turn this into a very good horror session. Unknown and largely unseen attackers...constant harassment...many small wounds...continuing loss of resources...getting separated from the party means death...

Have an imp or two in command of the kobolds and let the party get a glimpse early. Even if they imp never does anything after that first glimpse, a paranoid party will start to think all the unseen attackers may be imps. That may make their confident approach a bit more cautious. :smallwink:

Just have something for players to do after you've managed to separate and kill a character. Running an imp, for example. :smallbiggrin:

[Kyouhen]

Ok, so after actually checking up on the Dragon Shaman's ability again it really isn't that hard to get rid of the fast healing. Once the Kobolds figure out he's somehow healing the rest of his allies they can just throw together a pit trap with a door that closes automatically and a manual trigger. Drop the shaman down it and his fast healing can't reach the rest of the party. Set the rest of the party on fire and let's see how eager they are to stick around and get that door open again.

Also let the Kobolds make their presence known. They don't actually use the main tunnels unless they need to move something large into their lair anyway, they all use the little side tunnels outside of it. They're always watching. Have them kick a pebble or scratch a wall once in a while to let the party know that. If they're really that paranoid you could buy a few extra seconds just having them blast a murder hole. When they decide not to fall for that trick, have the Kobold toss a poisoned dart at them. That'll get them nice and paranoid again.

[FatR]

Tomb of Horrors is static and a one trick pony (lots of instance sof that trick, but mostly just one trick). Against a paranoid party like that, what can those kobolds do to adapt and kill the party?
No, not in a million years. They cannot even do anything to a party that exercises basic caution, besides slowing them down for one day at most. Period. Well, unless you drop a bunch of mid-high-level kobolds in their midst, but, you know, then it is just a normal match between mid-high-level characters and the fact that some of them happen to be kobolds is rather irrelevant.

[pingcode20]

Yes, the Tomb of Horrors paranoid party can take on any given threat the kobolds can dish out without much difficulty. Traps? Elemental Triggers. Kobolds? Kill them.

But can the party weather both at once? Yes, the party rogue can disarm any trap - but first, the rogue has to search for the trap, and then the rogue must disarm it. Moreover, the rogue has to search the 5ft square with the trap in it. Under heavy kobold attack, probably not so much.

Still, maybe the party can take it. So, throw in a third attack vector - poisoned crossbow bolts, with whatever easily usable poison the kobolds can harvest - Viper venom is a good one. It'll force the Dragon Shaman to switch to DR, because the ability damage will add up with enough bolts in the air. Moreso if the Kobolds abuse their Double Crossbows, and belt out two each every turn - with a mid-level party, it's going to be luck shots anyway, so what's the worry?

Then add in Manned Traps - traps that aren't set off by detectable triggers at all, instead triggered by operators in separate nearby chambers. If there's a good fight going on, Earth elementals will have better things to do than meticulously glide through all the walls. That, and maybe lead paint on the walls to block out earth elementals along with magic detection.

Ideally, as many of these tricks as possible should be fired off at the same time, in some 'last stand' chamber, where the harassment comes to a close and they make the big push to try and finish off the adventurers once and for all. Also, as many as they can afford should be surprise tactics that haven't been used previously.

There are all sorts of tricks that can be used - the key lies in having them all jump the characters at once, rather than charging in one at a time like mooks in a Kung Fu flick.

[Tehnar]

Place a fake treasure room (hidden, well defended with traps) with cursed gear, cursed coins and more traps in the treasure room.

[FatR]

Also, your approaching the Kobolds aim wrong. Their goal is not to trap and kill the PC's so they can't get away. They are tiny, wretched lizards in a huge and deadly world. Their only goal is to survive, so what they really want is to make the PC's go away, at any cost.
Then they probably should start with licking PCs boots.

[Deadmeat.GW]

So...a bunch of people are coming with the sole purpose to kill you, they do not talk ever and just kill and you want to go and lick their boots?

Are you trying to distract them so someone else can get away or trigger a deathfal trap or something?

The PC's are coming to eradicate the Kobold's, they are not passing through...

You might want to rephrase that.

Also...look at some of the tactics used, in combination you can kill at least some of the party with them.

[FatR]

So...a bunch of people are coming with the sole purpose to kill you, they do not talk ever and just kill and you want to go and lick their boots?
Well, if high-level adventurers are coming with such intent, they'll probably just collapse the dungeon and send an earth elemental to dig up loot from the ruins. Or send said elemental to exterminate the pests before breakfast (you can bind a version that is completely invulnerable to stock MM kobolds at level 11). Or get right to the warren in any of a dozen ways that totally bypasses low-level traps and sentries (starting from Gaseous Form + Invisibility/Hide) and start killing stuff. The party from OP can steamroll them as well, by slagging every 5' square in their path from safe distance, until the walls glow red (as they don't care whether the dungeon collapses or not in this situation). Discussing behavior of kobolds is only meaningful if they ever get to make any choices in the first place. Which they won't, if a high-level party actually comes for their heads, as opposed to just passing through.


Also...look at some of the tactics used, in combination you can kill at least some of the party with them.
No, you can't. Even if you assume that kobolds are the bravest, most dedicated warriors of the world and are ready to die for a chance to make PCs spend a charge from a wand of CLW. (Realistically, the morale should collapse after the first dozen or three dies without a chance to meaningfully fight back.)

[Frosty]

So...a bunch of people are coming with the sole purpose to kill you, they do not talk ever and just kill and you want to go and lick their boots?

Are you trying to distract them so someone else can get away or trigger a deathfal trap or something?

The PC's are coming to eradicate the Kobold's, they are not passing through...

You might want to rephrase that.

Also...look at some of the tactics used, in combination you can kill at least some of the party with them.

Or horribly maim them. I'm *thinking* of giving the kobolds a dragon sponsor and the dragon can arrive as reinforcement if the kobolds delay the PCs for a loooong time. Problem is, does that still count as Tucker's Kobolds?

[Radar]

If some of the kobolds are sorcerers (even 1st level): True Strike + Ray of Enfeeblement. It stacks until they have 1 STR and fall under their equipment weight. Combine with Ray of Exhaustion (if there are higher level sorcerers among kobolds) for more devastation.

Is it a classical Tucker's scenario? No - different edition, different party, different level of paranoia among the players. Still it is about coordinated strikes and fighting on your own, well prepared territory.

[Frosty]

RoE doesn't stack. they only overlap.

[Radar]

RoE doesn't stack. they only overlap.
>.<
Short description said damage, full description said penalty. Small words, lots of difference. Still it might push them into higher encumbrance level.

[Frosty]

A definitely possibility. doesn't it only lasts minutes per cater level though? With the low casters levels it might not matter *too* much.

[quick_comment]

Dont forget, kobolds make good thieves. A kobold with silence and invisibility can steal stuff under the nose of the party's watch as the party sleeps. If they use rope trick, then the kobolds can excavate the area under the rope trick so when they emerge, they fall right into a trap.

[icefractal]

Antimagic field ... banishing trap ... cloudkill/enervation ... reciprocal gyre ... ward the area versus earth elementals
While these aren't bad suggestions for foes in general, you're no longer talking about Tucker's Kobolds at that point, any more than if you made them all Paragon Ghost Kobolds and had them attacking through walls and possessing people.

I don't think you can really use Tucker's Kobolds against a paranoid and prepared party, because the entire point of Tucker's Kobolds is getting smacked around by some weak monsters that you didn't take seriously enough. If the party is taking them as a serious threat, then buffing them up enough to win proves nothing - other than the DM can make any monster tough with enough spells and power-ups.

But that's ok - Tucker's Kobolds were never the godlike force of pure annihilation some legends have made them out to be - they're just Kobolds who are a lot more dangerous than you would expect. Even the original article suggested using something tougher against high-level parties.

[Tiki Snakes]

Yeah, frankly I think you're getting far too hung up on 'running Tuckers Kobolds' when you should be thinking about A; Providing a suitably challenging thingy for your monstrously powerful and destructive party, and B; Considering what the Kobolds could fairly have at their disposal.

If it's a hive of level 1 unskilled kobolds with pointy sticks, it's just not an appropriate challenge, no matter how terrifyingly Tuckerian their tactics are.

Also, re: Draconic Rite of Passage and the true-strike/ray of enfeeblement combo. Make the Enfeeblement part the rite of passage spell. It becomes iirc, a spell-like ability. Take Draconic Reservoire to get it 3/day, and empower spell-like ability to get all variable numeric effects of it increased by 1/2.

You've already taken draconic rite of passage(ritual not feat) and the reservoir feat, so why not take Greater Draconic Rite of passage and basically get a free level of Sorcerer in exchange for a few more hp?

Note, this lvl6 sorcerer kobold is not only functionally a 7th level (if low hp) sorcerer with a 3/day empowered Ray of Enfeeblement, it still has a feat left to spend, and I'm sure someone can find us a nice feat to make this more horrendous from a splatbook somewhere.

Now have about thirty or forty of them hiding in the walls, under rocks, behind the toilet, etc, at every point in the dungeon. :) They should not be rare, really, in such a society.

Anyone else got any suitably fearsome concepts that we can squeeze out of the web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)? Or should we just have his Kobold tribe be lead by a dragowrought Loredrake and be done with it?

[Radar]

I've searched through the spell list and was thinking about gluing a Touch o Idiocy trap to a PC via a Mage Hand or the allways usefull Invisible Servant. It's a no-save 1d6 penalty. There is also Spirit Worm spell - possible CON damage on 1st level (almost too good to be true)! There is also Spectral Hand, to deliver the spells, but it would have to be made invisible, to be effective.
Also worth noting is the Combust spell - sure it just deals damage, but catching fire and possibly spreading it might distract the PCs enough, to catch them flatfooted.
Shatter is also a good option to consider.

[Frosty]

Why shatter? It doesn't work against non-magical objects.

[Radar]

Why shatter? It doesn't work against non-magical objects.
It's description doesn't say anything about targets beign magical or not. You could even shatter someones pants for the heck of it. Only that some objects get a will save.

edit: nonmagical objects only - still a lot of things on an adventurer are non-magical.

[Frosty]

It's description doesn't say anything about targets beign magical or not. You could even shatter someones pants for the heck of it. Only that some objects get a will save.

edit: nonmagical objects only - still a lot of things on an adventurer are non-magical.

Does a spell component pouch count as non-magical? Do attended, non-magical objects get a save?

[woodenbandman]

Flood the place with poison.

Except it's actually butane.

[Radar]

Does a spell component pouch count as non-magical? Do attended, non-magical objects get a save?
Yes :smallbiggrin: and yes (wielder's bonus IIRC) :smallannoyed: