FFT Holy Knight in 3.5?

[Fax Celestis]

Kinda a weird request, but anyone know of a way to model Agrias (or any of the other Holy/Shrine/Oracle Knights) in D&D? Because I would love to be throwing some Lightning Stabs around.

[Eldariel]

Isn't this quite simply a melee Cleric (or Favored Soul) - probably a DMM: Persist one - with Smiting Spell to channel his various Holy/Lightning attacks through his weapon, and appropriate domains?

Actually, even better, Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5/Whatever (Fist of Raziel?) 10/X 1. Gets past the pre-fight buffing hassle and gets you the innate ability to channel whatever you've got. Perhaps Anyspell Whirling Blade to do it at range, and using metamagic like Born of Three Thunders and Fell Draining to add a variety of status effects to the spells.


Heck, even better, do above and pick Customize Domain [DR325] to fill out War-domain with the types of combat spells you'd think best suit Agrias and you can spontaneously cast (and thus Channel) them. Silence for Lightning Stab is pretty easy, for example (though you'd want the lightning elemental damage along too; perhaps addable with some metamagic or such).

[Fax Celestis]

That's certainly a good way to model it. And here I was looking at ToB Maneuvers.

[erikun]

Paladin, Cleric, Crusader. Duskblade also comes to mind. Paladin/Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion also comes to mind, for spellcasting and warding.

There's a number of Paladin prestige classes available. Cleric/Prestige Paladin could work, as could /Kensai I guess. I recommended a CG Paladin of Freedom/Holy Liberator/Divine Crusader in another thread, which is probably juicier than just a basic Paladin.

[Innis Cabal]

I's say ToB would be a good way to do it to, a multi classed Cleric(favored Soul)/Crusader would be the best for it really. Make a Ruby Knight but reflavor

[Draken]

That's certainly a good way to model it. And here I was looking at ToB Maneuvers.

With ToB You could just take a variant of Desert Wind with a different elemental descritor (electricity in this case, Krimm did one such minor homebrew), and, in keeping with the cleric thing outlined above, go RKV and finish with Ordained Champion.

[T.G. Oskar]

Actually, to make it a bit more closer to the real Holy Knight, you'd have to use spells or maneuvers without an elemental descriptor and that cause status effects. Mostly, that cause any form of Paralysis, instant death, Silence, and Confusion. The elemental properties were present in FFT for the PSX (mostly all Holy element except for Lightning Stab/Hallowed Bolt which was Lightning element), but the PSP version removed all elemental properties.

In which case, I'd go nuts and work a way to blend Crusader maneuvers (for the thematic feel) with any way to add status effects as rider effects, then unleash both at the same time. Mostly, to add Hold Person (and then the enhanced versions), Finger of Death or Slay Living, Silence and Confusion/Insanity.

The big problem is range. All of the Holy Sword skills have a range of 2 or 3, which would translate to a maximum range of 10-15 ft, and from there a small range (I think that 4th Edition calls it "Close Burst 1"), except for Holy Explosion/Divine Ruination which is a linear strike (and thus, perfect to set up for Lightning Throw)

So, the idea is as follows:
Stasis Sword/Judgment Blade: max range 10 ft, close burst 5 ft, non elemental, all characters receive X amount of damage and a Will save or become paralyzed.
Split Punch/Cleansing Strike: max range 15 ft, non elemental, single target receives X damage and a delayed instant death effect.
Crush Punch/Northswain's Strike: max range 10 ft., non elemental, single target receives X damage and instant death.
Lightning Stab/Hallowed Bolt: max range 15 ft, non elemental (despite the lightning effect), close burst 5 ft, all characters receive X amount of damage and a Will save or become silenced.
Holy Explosion/Divine Ruination: 25 ft. line, non-elemental, all characters receive X amount of damage and a Will save or become confused.

Just in case, to make it a bit more closer to what it should, the range of power usually is:
Northswain's < Judgment = Cleansing < H. Bolt < Ruination.

The closest thing on a maneuver that resembles a single target attack would be the set of Fan the Flames, perhaps reworked to have a different element, and inclined to deploy the effect on the character. Castigating Strike coupled with Hold or Silence spells work for the last two, and either Lightning Throw or Firesnake works for the last one.

While I'd advocate for one of the versions below, I'd say something along the lines of Crusader or Warblade X/Sorcerer or Wizard X (or how it goes, Beguiler X)/Jade Phoenix Mage, and slap Smiting spell along. Agrias isn't one to self-buff (unless you count her "levels" in White Mage, which is the rough equivalent of a 8th level Cleric), so it's mostly a choice of how to work the deal. For Castigating Strike, you may need to waive the fact it's a melee attack by somehow extending the sword's reach. Also, to keep the levels decent enough to allow her to strike well enough.

[Person_Man]

I stopped playing the Final Fantasy series about 10 years, when the Emerald Weapon drove me insane. Can you explain what you're trying to model?

[Fax Celestis]

I stopped playing the Final Fantasy series about 10 years, when the Emerald Weapon drove me insane. Can you explain what you're trying to model?

Agrias (and other Holy Knights) have the ability to strike within short range with semi-magical attacks.

From a fluff-perspective, a giant sword blasts itself out of the ground and into the opponent, carrying with it a side effect. This effect is occasionally elemental, but more often than not is just regular old physical damage.

You can see an example at 2:28 (and again at 5:20) in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA2mDRkIJ4Q).

Her weakest attack has to be within 2 squares (which, all things considered probably aren't 5' squares) and her others have to be within 3 squares, hitting everything in that square and adjacent. One attack is a line attack, which goes out to 8 squares.

[Hunter Noventa]

Holy explosion is 5 squares, not 8. :smalltongue: I've tried thinking of this as a thought exercise once or twice, but I never really wrote anything down. I think a Prestige Class with manuvers would be the way to go, gets to draw from it's own 'Holy Sword' school or some such. Or make an overall school for all the Swordskills in FFT and make them based on alignment and only let each prestige class be it's own alignment or something. That would make a theoretical dark knight suck unless you let them take from the standard ToB schools, or they were ToB PrCs to begin with and these just added the school to their list and let you pick based on alignemnt/PrC...hmmmm...

I might have to do something with this now.

[Prime32]

Agrias (and other Holy Knights) have the ability to strike within short range with semi-magical attacks.

From a fluff-perspective, a giant sword blasts itself out of the ground and into the opponent, carrying with it a side effect. This effect is occasionally elemental, but more often than not is just regular old physical damage.

You can see an example at 2:28 (and again at 5:20) in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA2mDRkIJ4Q).

Her weakest attack has to be within 2 squares (which, all things considered probably aren't 5' squares) and her others have to be within 3 squares, hitting everything in that square and adjacent. One attack is a line attack, which goes out to 8 squares.Seems like all you need is a standard spellcaster with some reflavouring of their spells.

[DragoonWraith]

This is awesome. Man, I love that game.

Well, they use the sword as a focus, so that's important, plus they're usually heavily armored and quite capable in combat.

[Prime32]

Well, they use the sword as a focus, so that's important, plus they're usually heavily armored and quite capable in combat.So Cleric 20 then?

[Triaxx]

I don't know, five foot seems about the right size, though that puts some funny scale on FFT. (Funnier than already exists I mean.)

It's better just to create a class for it, since you'd have to redesign all the abilities anyway. Due to a bug in the design of FFT, the sword skills took on whatever element the active weapon used, so lighting stab with a fire sword did fire elemental damage. It was kind of weird.

Most of it wouldn't be over strong unless you named your character Cid. Perhaps base the damage on the weapon? So Lightning Stab is Lightning Elemental, does sword damage + 4d4? 25% chance to Silence anyone hit? Will Save to dodge the silence?

Crush Punch would be Sword Damage + 2d3, 25% chance to kill instantly. Fort save to not die instantly?

FFT's BMG has exact combat calculations for the abilties.

Not a cleric, so much as a better paladin. Add the Equipment breakers to a PrC, and a seperate PrC for the Dark Knight Version.

[T.G. Oskar]

Her weakest attack has to be within 2 squares (which, all things considered probably aren't 5' squares) and her others have to be within 3 squares, hitting everything in that square and adjacent. One attack is a line attack, which goes out to 8 squares.

You might argue that the squares can represent either 5' squares or 10' squares, depending on what you consider canonical: most characters have a base movement of 3 squares, while the Chocobos have a max limit of 6 and are considered to cover the entirety of the battlefield, depending on the map. I use 5' squares to determine the probable source, but it's better to determine the range as "close", since that's what works better.

Also, Holy Explosion/Divine Ruination has a 5 square line target. The Monk's Earth Fist/Shockwave attack and the Samurai's Kikuichimoji/Kiku-Ichimonji special attack have 8 square ranges, and affect everything in that line. Also, recall that the game has vertical ranges, and most of the time those ranges are 0, so you can only affect those within the same 5' x 5' square, or 10' x 5' cylinder.

[Fax Celestis]

So best way to model it, so far, appears to be with either a 4e mechanic or a ToB discipline.

I may have to do a ToB discipline for this now, as a sort of breather from d20r. Or maybe I'll do that discipline that has UMD as it's key skill.

[Prime32]

So best way to model it, so far, appears to be with either a 4e mechanic or a ToB discipline.I still don't get how it's any different from a cleric who uses a sword as a divine focus. :smallconfused:

[Fax Celestis]

I still don't get how it's any different from a cleric who uses a sword as a divine focus. :smallconfused:

Because, while that may be effective in modeling it on a limited basis, the Holy Knight does far fewer things than a cleric and can use their abilities at-will.

[Prime32]

In that case, warlock? Maybe with that cleric/warlock PrC from Complete Mage? (or the "holy warlock" one)

EDIT: Eldritch Disciple and Enlightened Spirit

[Fax Celestis]

In that case, warlock? Maybe with that cleric/warlock PrC from Complete Mage? (or the "holy warlock" one)

...

...actually, a warlock surprisingly could be very accurate. Eldritch Blast becomes Giant Sword Thingamajigger. Use Eldritch Essences to simulate different uses (Holy Explosion becomes the one that adds confusion and Eldritch Spear, for instance). Refluff, remove alignment restriction, and serve chilled. Nice.

[ZeroNumerous]

Warlock//Paladin(of X), or Warlock/Paladin+That one Divine+Warlock PrC. Sword = Holy Focus. Lightning Stab is your Eldritch Blast, refuffed to be lightning+sword shaped. Homebrew a feat(or use.. ugh.. Hideous Blow) that lets you channel your eldritch blast through your sword.

[afroakuma]

Feeling proactive, are we, Fax? :smallwink:

For the record, I'm fairly certain that within my own séjour here, someone did up both Holy and Dark Knights in Homebrew. Try a search?

[Prime32]

Homebrew a feat(or use.. ugh.. Hideous Blow) that lets you channel your eldritch blast through your sword.Or eldritch glaive from Dragon Magic, which is much better, though you can't move and attack with it in the same round unless you have some way of getting extra actions.

AFB, but IIRC the cleric/warlock PrC allows you to channel eldritch blasts through spells. Use a touch spell (or take ordained champion levels and combine your eldritch blast with the spell you channel into your sword).

[T.G. Oskar]

I still don't get how it's any different from a cleric who uses a sword as a divine focus. :smallconfused:

The effects that the Holy Knights use actually have an equivalent in Wizard spells, do not consume spell slots (or MP), and most of the time they depend on the physical stats of the user (so you don't use caster level for nothing, actually). It's best represented through the ToB disciplines, as they use a similar algorithm for calculating damage:

Strike calculation: Maneuver damage + melee attack
Holy Sword calculation (using game statistics): Physical Attack x (Weapon strength + PWR)
Holy Sword converted calculations: Str mod. x (weapon damage + maneuver damage)

While the latter is insanely powerful (someone with high Str will do insane amounts of damage), using the strike calculations makes better sense than using the Cleric's calculations for spells, which are limited in uses per day (something that the Holy Knight wouldn't)

That's the reason why Fax (and I, as well) see Holy Sword techniques as 4E powers, or at a close best as PrC-based ToB maneuvers.

In fact, the best way to do so is the maneuver substitution precedent from PrCs such as Bloodstorm Blade, where you execute the maneuver by using a Devoted Spirit maneuver. Something like:

Judgment Blade (Su): The purity of your spirit halts the forces of darkness in their stead. While you are on a Devoted Spirit stance, you can end its effect prematurely to use this ability (alternatively: you may forego the use of a Xth level Devoted Spirit maneuver to initiate this ability). You may then target a specific opponent within close range (25 + 5'/level of the class -or- initiator level). The target, and any creatures adjacent to it receive XdX damage (first X being anything you want, second X no larger than d6), and any creatures affected by the ability must do a Will save with a DC equal to 10 + (level of sacrificed maneuver) plus your Wisdom modifier or be held in place as if under a Hold Person spell, except it affects any creature not immune to paralysis.

Recall that these abilities never fail, but in case you can issue a ranged touch attack (perhaps one that uses Strength or Wisdom instead of Dex) to succeed.

[Prime32]

Illumians from Races of Destiny could work then - an Aeshkrau sigil makes your spellcasting Str-based.

[T.G. Oskar]

Illumians from Races of Destiny could work then - an Aeshkrau sigil makes your spellcasting Str-based.

First, how do you rule the fact that the damage is also weapon based? I missed that on the fluff, because it's a tad difficult to explain, but it can be done. You can do that quite well with the 4E mechanics, but 3.5 works on different mechanics.

Also, limiting to Illumians? What if you want to have...I dunno, a Human Holy Knight?

Doing the maneuver switch method is viable, and it lends to the feel of "I don't have to sacrifice anything to use it".

The Warlock idea works nice without a need to homebrew, but it would ironically work better with the arcane spellcasting of a Bard. Since Bards have access to nearly all of the spells.

To make it a bit clearer:
Bards have Confusion, Silence and Hold Person. They only miss a Death spell.
Clerics have Silence and Hold Person, as well as Slay Living. They don't have Confusion unless it's a domain spell.
Sorcerers and Wizards have Confusion, Hold Person, and a variety of spells that cause Instant Death (Phantasmal Killer and Finger of Death, which is exactly as Slay Living). They lack the Silence spell.

While Bards miss one spell, they are the most capable of getting a Death spell and remain accessible to most people, unlike Clerics (you pretty much need the Trickery domain, and that limits you to 1/day) and Sorcerers/Wizards (although they can improvise...). You'd need to refluff the Eldritch Blast to have a carrier spell around, and have the target area and range necessary to work properly. And even then, you'd suffer from missing every now and then, aside from doing it a limited amount of times per day.

Maneuver substitution allows a martial adept to use it a few times, but being homebrewed, it can be balanced a bit better (since it would have theoretically the input of more people), and it stays true to the lore of the skills.

[Prime32]

First, how do you rule the fact that the damage is also weapon based? I missed that on the fluff, because it's a tad difficult to explain, but it can be done. You can do that quite well with the 4E mechanics, but 3.5 works on different mechanics.If you are channeling a spell through your weapon by any means then the damage is weapon-based. If you want to attack through a melee weapon at a range then take bloodstorm blade levels or cast stretch weapon.


Also, limiting to Illumians? What if you want to have...I dunno, a Human Holy Knight?
Illumians are human. Besides, it's all a matter of fluff. You can call a dwarf PC a short human, even if there are other dwarves in the party.

[Shpadoinkle]

This is how I'd do it: Start with the warlock. Drop the alignment and fluff BS, raise HD to d10, give martial weapon, heavy armor, and shield proficiencies.

Lose DR, detect magic, and energy resistance. Fortitude becomes a good save (in addition to Will), BAB becomes good, (as fighter) and known invocations are limited to the Edtrich Essence and Eldtrich Shape lists.

EB remains a ranged touch attack (rename it to Holy Sword or whatever but mechanically it's identical). That combined with a full BAB is about the closest you can get to an auto-hit without getting a constant True Strike effect somehow.