Hollow Point bullet.

[tribble]

I'm participating in a mock trial program, which is like Debate but more complicated, and the case involves guns. Whee! the murder weapon is an 1873 US Cavalry Colt Revolver. the police report states the pistol to be a "custer era" Colt US Cavalry, Single-action Army revolver, serial number 8462. authentication documents are in order. blah blah blah... Here's the meat of my question: the Ammunition retrieved from this weapon was Winchester .45 caliber Colt 225 gr. Silvertip Hollow Point bullets.

The Question: is this model of ammunition difficult or expensive to obtain to the point of being notably unusual?
for the curious, this would pertain to the issue of premeditation.

[Thanatos 51-50]

As far as I know, hollowpoints are designed to fragment upon impact, causing it to be harder to find every piece, identify ballsitics, and cause more damage to squishy internal organs.

Not sure if they're paticulalrly difficult to acquire.
EDIT:
I dpo know, however, that when I still lived at home and my father still kept a firearm in the house, that we had hollowpoints as well as leadbellies.

[THAC0]

Google tells me that the internet is full of places to purchase those.

[Vmag]

Google tells me that the internet is full of places to purchase those.

Never discount the internet. Ten years ago this might have been a valid question, but these days you can get ANYthing from ANYwhere on the internet.

As such, check his credit card statements. In a world where things are easy enough to find online regardless of rarity, and in an internet where everything needs a credit card, your job is easy.

[tribble]

As far as I know, hollowpoints are designed to fragment upon impact, causing it to be harder to find every piece, identify ballsitics, and cause more damage to squishy internal organs.

Not sure if they're paticulalrly difficult to acquire.

I know how they work, the hollow point causes mushrooming at the tip of the bullet, resulting in faster incapaciation and reduced ricochet, penetration, etc. Hollow point bullets are prohibited from military use by the haugue convention. the above points have made it popular for police and civvie use. if someone knows of a website where i can find a lot of information about specific bullets, it would be greatly appreciated. so would personal expertise. :)

EDIT: my real curiosity is whether this would be an extremely unusual bullet to to keep around just on principle. if this particular make of bullet is rare enough that a claim that he just keeps them around is implausible, that's premeditation cut and dried.

-Unfortunately i do not have access to credit card records.

[Ridureyu]

The summer camp I went to used hollow points for their rifle-shooting classes. Why? Because they were cheap and easy to get in that part of Pennsylvania.

So no, I'd say Hollow Points are not particularly hard to acquire.

[THAC0]

I don't know the particular situation for the debate, but you might want to check out the Harold Fish controversy. Hollow point ammunition was used in that case. The initial result was conviction, but the conviction was recently overturned.

[tribble]

I don't know the particular situation for the debate, but you might want to check out the Harold Fish controversy. Hollow point ammunition was used in that case. The initial result was conviction, but the conviction was recently overturned.

linky please?

[THAC0]

linky please?

There are tons of sites out there. As I certainly don't know what your exact needs are, I'll leave the googling to you. :smallsmile:

[Vmag]

-Unfortunately i do not have access to credit card records.

Sounds like an excellent reason to recess for the rest of the day. That is information - evidence - that could impact the case some, plus extending the trial a day allows you to stretch out your pay.

You gotta think like a lawyer, man, not like a student.

[Thanatos 51-50]

EDIT: my real curiosity is whether this would be an extremely unusual bullet to to keep around just on principle. if this particular make of bullet is rare enough that a claim that he just keeps them around is implausible, that's premeditation cut and dried.

-Unfortunately i do not have access to credit card records.

As I said, my father had a few alongside his "Normal" ammuntion.

Also: Access to Credit Card record - specifically time of purchases would be great to establish premeditation, methinks. If there are no records, he likely used cash, to avoid getting caught, if there are recent records, the bullets were likely bought to perform the deed, if they were purchased a long, long time back, it's (more) likely hes telling the truth about "just happening to have" the bullets.

[leafman]

the Ammunition retrieved from this weapon was Winchester .45 caliber Colt 225 gr. Silvertip Hollow Point bullets.


If that is 'correct' then I say you can throw the evidence out. The bullet can't be a Winchester .45 Colt. Winchester and Colt are two seperate fire arm companies and never worked together. Furthermore Winchester (according to the entry on wikipedia) made rifles, shotguns but not pistols though they make ammunition for pistols. Colt makes pistols but does not make ammunition. Point being that one would never see the Colt brand name on ammo, especially ammo made by Winchester.

[Ravens_cry]

As such, check his credit card statements. In a world where things are easy enough to find online regardless of rarity, and in an internet where everything needs a credit card, your job is easy.
Not quite true technically. I used Paypal to buy something off of eBay once. I used my debit card.

[Coidzor]

Hmm. Depends on the rarity of ammunition compatible with such an old handgun, really.

..Though the timeline of purchases probably does matter more.

[Hell Puppi]

I know hollow points are generally used for home protection because they fragment and are less likely to go through walls from a misfire.

A single-action Army? Hmmm....

Wikipedia says-
"The .45 Colt cartridge was of center fire design containing charges of up to 40 grains (2.6 g) of fine grained black powder and a 255-grain (16.5 g) blunt round nosed bullet. Relative to period cartridges and most later handgun rounds, it was quite powerful in its full loading."

Are you sure it was an original 1873? That thing is a collector's item, methinks.

[Verruckt]

The pistol you're talking about fire .45 long colt. It is important to distinguish between .45 long and .45 ACP, a far more common caliber. I'd say that such ammunition in a hollowpoint would be a rarity. It's not to say that hollowpoint ammunition in and of itself is rare, it's the combination of the caliber and the bullet that seems odd.


If that is 'correct' then I say you can throw the evidence out. The bullet can't be a Winchester .45 Colt. Winchester and Colt are two seperate fire arm companies and never worked together. Furthermore Winchester (according to the entry on wikipedia) made rifles, shotguns but not pistols though they make ammunition for pistols. Colt makes pistols but does not make ammunition. Point being that one would never see the Colt brand name on ammo, especially ammo made by Winchester.

Actually that's not true at all. Neither .45 long colt nor .45 automatic colt pistol are made solely by Colt any more than .50 browning machine gun is made only by Browning. The Winchester rifle lever actions seen in many westerns was chambered in the same round as the pistol used in the murder.



EDIT: my real curiosity is whether this would be an extremely unusual bullet to to keep around just on principle. if this particular make of bullet is rare enough that a claim that he just keeps them around is implausible, that's premeditation cut and dried.

-Unfortunately i do not have access to credit card records.

If that's the case, I think the more poignant thing is that the gun itself is more telling than the round, that thing's a collectors piece, not a home defense weapon, and there's no reason to be keeping something like that loaded unless one intends on doing killing with it.

[thubby]

are you sure you're not overthinking it?
premeditation can take place shortly before the crime. taking the gun with him is proof enough if he doesn't normally keep it on his person. (considering the make, i find it hard to believe he would)

[Hell Puppi]

Yeah it's long colt ammo, I think....but still...what codition was the gun in? Why was he firing a collectors item with more 'modern' ammo?

Wiki goodness-
"The designation ".45 Long Colt" originated amongst military personnel to prevent confusion with the smaller .45 Schofield. It has become a widely used alternative name for the cartridge, and adopted by Colt for use in designating the chambering in its own Single Action Army revolvers."

The hollow point ammo in .45 long colt isn't all that difficult to find. Blazer sells a 50 round box for 40 bucks online.

Edit- Found it:
.45 Long Colt Winchester Super-X Silvertip Handgun Cartridge, 225-Grain Hollow Point Bullet, 920 fps, 20 Rounds

Would normally be available on Cheaper Than Dirt (a regular supplier of all things gun related) if handgun ammo wasn't going bonkers right now and was always out of stock.

[Verruckt]

Yeah it's long colt ammo, I think....but still...what codition was the gun in? Why was he firing a collectors item with more 'modern' ammo?

Wiki goodness-
"The designation ".45 Long Colt" originated amongst military personnel to prevent confusion with the smaller .45 Schofield. It has become a widely used alternative name for the cartridge, and adopted by Colt for use in designating the chambering in its own Single Action Army revolvers."

The hollow point ammo in .45 long colt isn't all that difficult to find. Blazer sells a 50 round box for 40 bucks online.

Edit- Found it:
.45 Long Colt Winchester Super-X Silvertip Handgun Cartridge, 225-Grain Hollow Point Bullet, 920 fps, 20 Rounds

Would normally be available if handgun ammo wasn't going bonkers right now and was always out of stock.

It is interesting to note that looking at their site Winchester themselves no longer sell this round. While ammo is indeed wacky right now it might have been difficult to find anyway because they don't make it anymore.

[Neon Knight]

Wait a second.

He's firing modern ammo out of a Custer era pistol?

Is this ammo black powder or smokeless powder? I've heard that firing modern smokeless powder bullets out of authentic period weapons can have bad results due to the differences in metallurgy and and pressure tolerances of the chamber.

[Hell Puppi]

It is interesting to note that looking at their site Winchester themselves no longer sell this round. While ammo is indeed wacky right now it might have been difficult to find anyway because they don't make it anymore.

Errrmmm...

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=691001

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=10480_14658_14743_14909_14760

[SDF]

The gun may be authentic, but there are Single Action Army clones all over the place. .45 long colt isn't a hard round to come by. The answer to the initial question would be no.

[Yarram]

Silver tip right?

Just say that the guy that was shot was obviously a wolf at the time, that was attacking your client, which is the real reason that silver bullets were used. Then just go, "Now that the REAL issue is established, we should stop worrying about who killed who, and start worrying what to do about the werewolf infestation, who my client is a hero for delaying. So opposition! Do you think werewolves aren't a threat then?"

And then bring up all the 400 year old witch trial evidence to show how freaks are historically persecuted!

[Verruckt]

Errrmmm...

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=691001

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=10480_14658_14743_14909_14760

Yeah, but these are people selling extant stock, what I'm saying is that Winchester doesn't seem to be making any more.

[SDF]

Yeah, but these are people selling extant stock, what I'm saying is that Winchester doesn't seem to be making any more.

What makes you think that? (http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/handgundetail.aspx?symbol=X45CSHP2&bn=1&type=30) :smallconfused:

[Verruckt]

What makes you think that? (http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/handgundetail.aspx?symbol=X45CSHP2&bn=1&type=30) :smallconfused:

Oh hey. Well it seems I suck at navigating Winchester's site then :smallredface:

In that case Tribble, without knowing more about the case, I'd say that the Gun is certainly odd, but the ammo isn't exactly hard to come by given the internet.

Additional info about the case would be appreciated though, I am intrigued :smallsmile:

[skywalker]

The Silvertip is one of the most common self-defense rounds in revolvers. It is highly recommended by many self-defense experts, but it is also seen as "older technology" that should probably be replaced for best performance in a self-defense situation. Of course Winchester still sells them because not everyone can shell out big $$ for the newest, best thing.

So no, it is not uncommon.

What is uncommon is that a person would load modern cartridges in a "custer era" firearm. It's very important to know whether it's a replica or not, as others have said. It is a bit of a stretch to say that a person would want to keep even a replica loaded that way, but I have seen stranger things.

That being said, if a person were to keep a gun loaded, there is absolutely no reason to keep a gun loaded with anything but hollow points. I will explain: If you load a gun, you probably think you'll need it without having a chance to load it. That implies a self-defense or hunting situation (attackers and deer don't give you time to load, targets do). In other words, if you keep a gun loaded, you are expecting to need to kill something with it. In all situations, hollow points are superior to regular bullets for this purpose.

Did you follow my reasoning? Basically, there is no reason to keep a gun loaded with anything but hollow points. If he did in fact keep the gun loaded, it is not at all unusual to keep them in it.

Seems like it would be tough to prove he kept it loaded, tho.

Bottom line: No, Silvertips (hollow points in general) are not uncommon enough to be something he would have to seek out. Furthermore, it naturally follows that if a gun is kept loaded, it will be kept loaded with the best bullets for killing a person (or animal if it makes you feel better, but this is a pistol. We aren't going hunting with this). What is uncommon is that someone kept a 100 year old gun loaded with modern ammo, and I would find it hard to prove he kept the thing loaded at all.

[Coidzor]

So, only odd part of all of this is that he used such an old weapon to off a guy with modern ammunition which probably shouldn't have been used with such a gun in the first place, and that's only if the gun is actually authentic.

That's our consensus, then?

hmm, killing a guy with a gun that probably shouldn't have been loaded or fired in the first place, while inadvisable for, well, multiple reasons, doesn't seem too outside the bounds of normal 'spontaneous' human stupidity... So that becomes more suspicious if he actually knew anything about the gun or guns in general...

Hmm... The serial number given seems to suggest that it is from 1873... if both the police report and the wiki can be trusted on such counts.

the police report states the pistol to be a "custer era" Colt US Cavalry, Single-action Army revolver, serial number 8462.

By the end of 1874, serial no. 16,000 was reached;

[Keld Denar]

Bank transfers of any kind, as well as cell phone usage and data transfers are among the most common things subpoenad by a lawyer, with court permission. If this is really a mock trial, subpoena like a mofo. If it was bought online, whether through paypal, with a debit card, or in any other way that can be tied back to a bank account (ACH or other direct deposit), it should be fully accessable.

[Galileo]

Don't forget to point at people and bellow "OBJECTION!" with everything you've got. Which would be your index finger and your vocal chords.

[Jack Squat]

If that is 'correct' then I say you can throw the evidence out. The bullet can't be a Winchester .45 Colt. Winchester and Colt are two seperate fire arm companies and never worked together. Furthermore Winchester (according to the entry on wikipedia) made rifles, shotguns but not pistols though they make ammunition for pistols. Colt makes pistols but does not make ammunition. Point being that one would never see the Colt brand name on ammo, especially ammo made by Winchester.

Winchester currently makes ammunition for pistols. The "Colt" is referring to a type of round, the it could either be a .45 ACP (automatic colt pistol) which does not fire through the gun in quesiton, or a .45 long colt, which does. here's the ammo in question (http://aloanatlast.com/eshop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=192).

It's not too expensive, and many (if not all) people who carry/own pistols keep some hollow point ammunition in case of self defense. The reason being that it limits over penetration (punching through the bad guy and keeps on going, possibly striking another person you didn't want to hit). So no, there's nothing particularly odd or sinister about owning this particular ammunition.

[xPANCAKEx]

difficulty of obtaining the ammo in question wouldn't show premeditation - if thats your prefered bullet, thats your prefered bullet.... Simply purchasing ammo is not going to be classified as pre-meditation else it would open a whole FLOODGATE on the issue

BUT

if the bullet was in anyway treated/altered after purchase (ie: spraying on teflon, coating in anti-coagulant agent, altering it so it fragments easier) then you could definately call pre-meditation as the user has put thought into causing maximum damage

[Erloas]

I don't think having ammunition for a weapon you own would be considered premeditation at all. It doesn't really matter how rare the round is, if you have a gun that uses that round you will most likely have the ammunition for it. At least if it is a gun you plan on shooting at all.
And a lot of people have collectible guns that they shoot. Most people I know that have guns like that buy them not only for their historical value but also to shoot them. So long as they are in fairly good working shape.

As far as the hollow-point vs fmj I don't think that says too much either. Since it is very unlikely that you would need the extra damage of a hollow-point round to kill someone. Seeing as how you are going out to shoot someone (in the case it was premeditated) I don't think the issue of collateral damage with a fmj is going to be an issue the person would really consider, where as it might be if you had the rounds for self defense.

The real question with premeditation is how likely it would have been for the guy to have the gun on him wherever the murder took place.

[Jack Squat]

I don't think having ammunition for a weapon you own would be considered premeditation at all. It doesn't really matter how rare the round is, if you have a gun that uses that round you will most likely have the ammunition for it. At least if it is a gun you plan on shooting at all.
And a lot of people have collectible guns that they shoot. Most people I know that have guns like that buy them not only for their historical value but also to shoot them. So long as they are in fairly good working shape.

The gun in question has many modern day replicas being built. Since this is described as "custer era" and Custer died in 1876, legally speaking, the revolver in question isn't a firearm. This is important later.

The main point I'd like to bring up with the age of the revolver is that it was designed for use with black powder. The modern round that was found at the scene has a good chance of causing catastrophic failure if fired in the gun.


As far as the hollow-point vs fmj I don't think that says too much either. Since it is very unlikely that you would need the extra damage of a hollow-point round to kill someone. Seeing as how you are going out to shoot someone (in the case it was premeditated) I don't think the issue of collateral damage with a fmj is going to be an issue the person would really consider, where as it might be if you had the rounds for self defense.

The defendant could have had the revolver loaded for self defense (unlikely if the age of the gun is true. More likely if it's a replica) then used it to commit murder. But, yes, generally I don't think people going out to buy stuff for a killing (i.e. gangs) are going to care about overpenetration, much less pay the $1/round.


The real question with premeditation is how likely it would have been for the guy to have the gun on him wherever the murder took place.

If it was at his house or he regularly carried (no licence needed, also technically legal in places with "No firearms" policies unless the state redefines the definition of a firearm), then it's likely. This would support self-defense. If he didn't regularly carry, it could support premeditation.

[tribble]

all right, thanks for the input everyone. It's appreciated.:smallbiggrin:

[Pharaoh's Fist]

FWIW, police commonly use hollow points, as they are often concerned with reducing overpenetration, and increasing the effectiveness of their ammunition. Simply loading a gun with hollow points is not very solid evidence of something as serious as premeditated murder.

[Neon Knight]

The main point I'd like to bring up with the age of the revolver is that it was designed for use with black powder. The modern round that was found at the scene has a good chance of causing catastrophic failure if fired in the gun.


I brought this up earlier. If this is an authentic period firearm, and the person was killed with modern smokeless powder cartridges, it is unlikely that the revolver in question is the murder weapon.

[Verruckt]

all right, thanks for the input everyone. It's appreciated.:smallbiggrin:

Let us know how it goes :smallsmile:

[Jack Squat]

I brought this up earlier. If this is an authentic period firearm, and the person was killed with modern smokeless powder cartridges, it is unlikely that the revolver in question is the murder weapon.

Yeah, I didn't really read through the thread before posting...it looks like it's been established by others that the revolver is clearly unfit to fire the modern ammunition through. Could it? Yes, modern ammo will infact chamber and fire in the gun. Would anyone who's financially capable of owning a Peacemaker from 1874 be ignorant to the fact that it'll most likely blow up in their face? No, I'm pretty sure all of them know that and thus if they fire it at all, it's with appropriate black powder ammo.

What I'd really like to know though is how it was determined that the round was from a long colt. According to a google, in the mid 80's the diameter changed of the .45LC round from .454 to .452 to match the same diameter as .45ACP. Even with the difference, there's enough variation upon impact that I'd say both rounds could look identical (especially considering ballistic forensics is pretty much guess work anyways). Unless there was a casing found, the best they could prove is that it was a .45 round. If a casing was found, why would someone empty a single empty cartridge from a revolver and knowingly leave evidence behind?

And just for the sake of argument, up until a few years ago, you could still buy the silvertip bullets (as opposed to cartridges/rounds) so the guy could have reloaded his own black powder rounds with them. He could also pull the new rounds and reload them with the appropriate amount of black powder, allowing this particular pistol to fire said round. This still wouldn't be that suspicious of behavior, even if most people wouldn't fire a double digit value antique.

[skywalker]

As far as the hollow-point vs fmj I don't think that says too much either. Since it is very unlikely that you would need the extra damage of a hollow-point round to kill someone. Seeing as how you are going out to shoot someone (in the case it was premeditated) I don't think the issue of collateral damage with a fmj is going to be an issue the person would really consider, where as it might be if you had the rounds for self defense.

I know this is only tangentially related, but it's not a question of killing people. It's a question of killing people quickly. In the world of self-defense, we oftentimes redefine the word "kill" to mean "stop them from being a threat." This is easy, since killing someone will easily stop them from being a threat permanently.

But hollow point bullets are actually less likely to cause the death of someone shot with them. Here's why: When a hollow point hits someone, it expands, causing a massive temporary wound channel. This causes a lot more havoc in the body at the time than the smaller channel created by the FMJ round. Because there is a lot more havoc going on, the body is more likely to shut itself down quicker. They are effectively (for the purpose of the gunfight) "dead." This reduces the chances of having to fire multiple shots at someone, reducing the number of entry wounds and thus the number of holes they can bleed from. Related to overpenetration, the round is also less likely to exit the person, meaning that it also doesn't make an exit wound. Again, once less hole to bleed from.

Both of those points are important because most people who die from pistol wounds (excluding those shot in the heart and the head) die from blood loss, not from some sort of catastrophic damage caused by the bullet. This is why people who die from pistol wounds die slowly, and a lot more people than you might think are saved from pistol wounds, especially those with hollow point ammo.


Yeah, I didn't really read through the thread before posting...it looks like it's been established by others that the revolver is clearly unfit to fire the modern ammunition through. Could it? Yes, modern ammo will infact chamber and fire in the gun. Would anyone who's financially capable of owning a Peacemaker from 1874 be ignorant to the fact that it'll most likely blow up in their face? No, I'm pretty sure all of them know that and thus if they fire it at all, it's with appropriate black powder ammo.

What I'd really like to know though is how it was determined that the round was from a long colt. According to a google, in the mid 80's the diameter changed of the .45LC round from .454 to .452 to match the same diameter as .45ACP. Even with the difference, there's enough variation upon impact that I'd say both rounds could look identical (especially considering ballistic forensics is pretty much guess work anyways). Unless there was a casing found, the best they could prove is that it was a .45 round. If a casing was found, why would someone empty a single empty cartridge from a revolver and knowingly leave evidence behind?

And just for the sake of argument, up until a few years ago, you could still buy the silvertip bullets (as opposed to cartridges/rounds) so the guy could have reloaded his own black powder rounds with them. He could also pull the new rounds and reload them with the appropriate amount of black powder, allowing this particular pistol to fire said round. This still wouldn't be that suspicious of behavior, even if most people wouldn't fire a double digit value antique.

All very wise.

Perhaps it's a low SN replica?

[Jack Squat]

Perhaps it's a low SN replica?

From the OP, it's a Colt, not a replica. I would imagine that the report would mention the companies real name otherwise.

IMO, this case's defense is supposed to be set up on the fact that Colt SAA revolvers weren't rated for smokeless powder until 1900 @ SN 192 000, a full 24 years after the manufacture of this particular pistol. Of course, in the real world, I would hope that the suspect would be released after officers established that and there'd never be this trial.

[Coidzor]

Aside from the possibility that he just an idiot and loaded smokeless into the blackpowder-only revolver and just got lucky that he killed the other guy rather than having his hand blown off.

I mean, idiots do inherit things too...

I'm still boggling at the idea that blackpowder weaponry isn't considered firearms.

...The premise definitely doesn't add up though.

[Jack Squat]

I'm still boggling at the idea that blackpowder weaponry isn't considered firearms.

It's not that it's blackpowder. It's the age. If it's a gun that takes a cartridge is made before 1899 and it's not a machine gun (which are covered by a law in 1986) than it's not a firearm.

Also if it doesn't take a cartridge it's not considered a firearm...so black powder muskets/pistols/revolvers that you see in Cabela's catalogs and cannons aren't regulated as firearms either.

[Coidzor]

Hmm... Now to look up the pertinent laws on casting my own cannon....

[Jack Squat]

Hmm... Now to look up the pertinent laws on casting my own cannon....

Depends on where you're located. I don't think any states actively prohibit them, but I could be wrong. I know Connecticut classifies the small ones as fireworks, and are illegal that way. Biggest thing you'll probably have to worry about is noise ordinances.

My uncle built a cannon in his backyard when he was a kid with the help of an (experienced adult) neighbor. Don't know what ever happened to it.

[Tyndmyr]

That alone certainly is not sufficient to prove premeditation. Even if that particular type of ammunition is relatively rare in that caliber, there are a number of non incriminating reasons why he might have purchased it. Time of purchase is also not terribly relevant for the same reason.

It's reasonably safe to assume that a variety of other rounds fired from that same firearm would also have been lethal, so there really is no link to murderous intent from buying a given round.

IMO, the obvious mismatch of the round to the weapon would likely be a rather tough point for the prosecution to handle, actually. Unless they can link the defendant to the purchase of this type of ammo, he's got a rather decent cause for doubt that he committed the crime at all.

[tribble]

That alone certainly is not sufficient to prove premeditation. Even if that particular type of ammunition is relatively rare in that caliber, there are a number of non incriminating reasons why he might have purchased it. Time of purchase is also not terribly relevant for the same reason.

It's reasonably safe to assume that a variety of other rounds fired from that same firearm would also have been lethal, so there really is no link to murderous intent from buying a given round.

IMO, the obvious mismatch of the round to the weapon would likely be a rather tough point for the prosecution to handle, actually. Unless they can link the defendant to the purchase of this type of ammo, he's got a rather decent cause for doubt that he committed the crime at all.

the case is confusing as hell, but as far as I can see he's pleading Not Guilty by self-defense.

[xPANCAKEx]

the case is confusing as hell, but as far as I can see he's pleading Not Guilty by self-defense.

then the gun/ammo used is MOSTLY irrelavent, and in this case the ammo is completely irrelavent... its a bit of a red herring to be honest.

what you need to look at is:
a) how available was the weapon to the defendant during the incident, and the circumstances in which they obtained their firearm. Simply having it to hand at the time rather than going to search for it may greatly affect their case.
b) how local/national laws dictate you are allowed to defend yourself
c) time/date of case - certain laws may not have been in effect at that point or apply retroactively re: self defence depending on your country
d) whether the use of force was proportionate
e) was any warning provided to the intruder

[THAC0]

then the gun/ammo used is MOSTLY irrelavent, and in this case the ammo is completely irrelavent... its a bit of a red herring to be honest.

what you need to look at is:
a) how available was the weapon to the defendant during the incident, and the circumstances in which they obtained their firearm. Simply having it to hand at the time rather than going to search for it may greatly affect their case.
b) how local/national laws dictate you are allowed to defend yourself
c) time/date of case - certain laws may not have been in effect at that point or apply retroactively re: self defence depending on your country
d) whether the use of force was proportionate
e) was any warning provided to the intruder

IMO, B (and C), are where you need to begin. Anything else is jumping the gun a bit.

[KerfuffleMach2]

One thing on the rarity of hollow points, I think it's based on where you are. I live in Michigan, which has a huge hunting community. I can go to the local Meijer and get hollow points, both for rifles and shotguns. Yes, hollow point slugs.

Now, in some states, they might not be so easy to get. I don't know.

[Jack Squat]

One thing on the rarity of hollow points, I think it's based on where you are. I live in Michigan, which has a huge hunting community. I can go to the local Meijer and get hollow points, both for rifles and shotguns. Yes, hollow point slugs.

Now, in some states, they might not be so easy to get. I don't know.

They're pretty common everywhere. Cops use them, so do some hunters (I think soft point is a bit more popular around here) and people looking for home/self defense. I haven't known a wal-mart to not carry hollow points of some sort if they carry non-shotgun ammo at all, but they are in every gun shop out there at the very least.

[xPANCAKEx]

if local laws prohibit the use of hollow point ammo, then that would throw a monkey wrench into the equation - but assuming its legal, its just another red herring. I wouldn't spend too much time on it

[skywalker]

They're pretty common everywhere. Cops use them, so do some hunters (I think soft point is a bit more popular around here) and people looking for home/self defense. I haven't known a wal-mart to not carry hollow points of some sort if they carry non-shotgun ammo at all, but they are in every gun shop out there at the very least.

.45 LC might be a bit hard to find hollow points for since it is typically not carried for self-defense. I have no idea what my local Wal-Mart carries (until my birthday in a week, this is my last Monday being 20 :smallamused:). In no way do I mean to say that it is unusual enough to be useful in court, just to say that Wal-Mart carries soft points and FMJ for far more calibers than they do hollow points.

[Stormthorn]

Errrmmm...

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=691001

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=10480_14658_14743_14909_14760

Both those links are out of stock. I also checked 3 other sites and only one actualy had any. It would seem to be scarce.



...rounds and reload them with the appropriate amount of black powder, allowing this particular pistol to fire said round. This still wouldn't be that suspicious of behavior, even if most people wouldn't fire a double digit value antique.

He could do that. And from a legal standpoint it might not be suspicous but from a common sense standpoint it is. Why buy highly leathal modern hollowpoint and go through the trouble of loading them into your antique weapon (whos value will degrade if you shoot it) in a period casing when you could just buy a cheap modern gun instead and not have to re-case anything?

I think where the killing to place is whats important here. If it happens outside the home and the killer wasnt on his way to an antique gun collecters con then we have reason to be suspicous.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Why buy highly leathal modern hollowpoint and go through the trouble of loading them into your antique weapon (whos value will degrade if you shoot it) in a period casing when you could just buy a cheap modern gun instead and not have to re-case anything?

Because someone might want to, you know, shoot the period gun and can't find proper ammo for it so has to recase it yourself? Not everyone who has a collectible wants to treat it as such (seriously... it's a gun... why even keep it if you only want to look at it?).

I think where the killing to place is whats important here. If it happens outside the home and the killer wasnt on his way to an antique gun collecters con then we have reason to be suspicous.
Depends on the state. I may be stereotyping, but in some places like Texas people carry guns wherever they go just because they can. They also prefer antique revolvers to modern 9-mil berettas and H&K's, because, well, it's Texas. Or at least that's what my friend who lives there now tells me.

[Jack Squat]

Both those links are out of stock. I also checked 3 other sites and only one actualy had any. It would seem to be scarce.

They're out of stock because people keep buying it, not because it's hard to find. The second link even specifically states "Backorder OK", meaning they'll be getting another shipment in. The same thing's the case with .22LR ammo in places, doesn't mean that anyone who owns it is suspicious.



He could do that. And from a legal standpoint it might not be suspicous but from a common sense standpoint it is. Why buy highly leathal modern hollowpoint and go through the trouble of loading them into your antique weapon (whos value will degrade if you shoot it) in a period casing when you could just buy a cheap modern gun instead and not have to re-case anything?

As Don said, maybe because he wants to use that gun. Maybe it's more affordable to him to reload the ammo rather than put the money out for a new gun. Maybe he doesn't care about the value and has it for sentimental reasons - that's why I've got some of my great-grandfather's old guns. I'd shoot them if I could find rounds for them.


I think where the killing to place is whats important here. If it happens outside the home and the killer wasnt on his way to an antique gun collecters con then we have reason to be suspicous.

Or, you know, he could be carrying for self defense. He doesn't even need a permit for that in most states, seeing as how it doesn't meet the federal definition of a firearm (some states have changed this, but not many). There's nothing suspicious about the activity in and of itself unless he was in an area guns generally aren't allowed at the time (for instance, federal buildings).

[Stormthorn]

Or, you know, he could be carrying for self defense

Because everyone carries around 100 year old guns for self defense. /sarcasm


And just to play Angels Advocate if he where loading it to use it for non self defense reasons (target practice for instance) then why use silver hollowpoints? Hollowpoints are good for killing people and thats about all.



doesn't mean that anyone who owns it is suspicious.
For the record, im suspicous of anyone buying ammo for anything but a BB gun. And even then it depends upon the BB gun.

[Jack Squat]

Because everyone carries around 100 year old guns for self defense. /sarcasm

That doesn't mean it's not a viable option. Heck, I know a guy who used to carry around Mauser C96 pistol (you know, the one Han Solo's gun is based off of) because it was what he had. While not quite "antique" status (first made in 1899), a good number of them are very close if not past 100 years old.


And if he where loading it to use it for non self defense reasons (target practice for instance) then why use silver hollowpoints? Hollowpoints are good for killing people and thats about all.

What about hunting? Also, the silver lining is really only a gimmick; it doesn't really do anything (unless you're up against werewolves :smallwink:). Most people just refer to them soley as "hollowpoints" regardless of what they're composed of for this very reason.


For the record, im suspicous of anyone buying ammo for anything but a BB gun. And even then it depends upon the BB gun.

Why? I'm just curious.

[skywalker]

And just to play Angels Advocate if he where loading it to use it for non self defense reasons (target practice for instance) then why use silver hollowpoints? Hollowpoints are good for killing people and thats about all.

I'm going to go ahead and refer you back to my previous post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6774437&postcount=40). No, it is probably unlikely that he was loading it for any other reason than to kill something (human or animal) when he loaded it with hollow points. Personally I don't think anyone is very likely to load a SAA with silver tips to hunt animals with. But they could, it's true. Regardless, hollow points are actually less likely to cause death in a person than regular bullets, because of the ability of modern medicine to repair damage, but not to put back in the blood you lose.

To answer your question more directly, why would he load the gun at all for non-self-defense purposes? Frankly, unless the shooting occurred on a shooting range, it is very stupid to keep the gun loaded at all. I'm not saying that it's illegal (or grounds for a murder conviction) but why keep the gun loaded if you don't need to? Again this goes back to my earlier post: There is no reason to keep the gun loadedexcept for self-defense, and there is no reason to load a gun for self-defense with anything other than hollow points.

EDIT: They aren't really silver, that's just the name (probably referring to the Lone Ranger), and:

Why? I'm just curious.

Because it's always a good idea to ask yourself "Why is he buying that ammunition" when you see a person doing so? To not be at least a little suspicious when it comes to weapons seems a bit foolhardy, to me.

[Erloas]

Because everyone carries around 100 year old guns for self defense. /sarcasm
The people that having a gun like that are generally gun enthusiasts. They like guns and find them interesting, just like any other hobby. Knowing that you can go your whole life without ever needing a gun for self defense, but still wanting one just in case, the majority of the time the gun is brought out or talked about is probably going to be with other people that find guns interesting. Carry some cheap 9mm and no one is going to notice or care. Carry an interesting and unique gun though and you are likely to get a lot of people asking about it, what it is, how old it is, where you got it, stuff like that. Its a good way to find other people that also find the gun hobby interesting.


And just to play Angels Advocate if he where loading it to use it for non self defense reasons (target practice for instance) then why use silver hollowpoints? Hollowpoints are good for killing people and thats about all.
I couldn't say for all weapons, but I know .22LR rounds are more common in hollow point then fmj, and its really not a great caliber for self defense because it lacks power. I think the main reason there is because they can save maybe 10% of the bullet making it hollow point compared to fmj, and when you are making millions of rounds that adds up to a lot of saved material. I don't know if that is the case with all ammo though.

In terms of use for target practice, it really doesn't make a huge difference between the two for shorter ranges. You would also want to target practice with what you are going to be shooting with. Target practicing with a FMJ rifle round for your hunting rifle wouldn't make any sense if you are going to switch to a hollow point for actually hunting because you've changed the flight characteristics of the bullet and your practice would be almost useless.




For the record, im suspicous of anyone buying ammo for anything but a BB gun. And even then it depends upon the BB gun.
You should try living somewhere outside a big city then. Recreational gun use is common in smaller communities. If I was suspicious of everyone buying ammo I would have to be suspicious of everyone I know, from my grandparents to my aunts and uncles and cousins and brothers. Of course when I lived in Phoenix I don't remember anyone buying ammo, and I can say without question that I was much more suspicious of people there then I am with people here.

[Swordguy]

People do carry older firearms as self-defense weapons. Here in Southgate, KY (a mile south of Cincinnati), we've got a cop who carries a LeMat revolver (a Civil War cavalry weapon with 9, .42-cal rounds and a single-shot, underbarrel, 16ga shotgun chamber) that he's rechambered to fire .38 special. With that in mind, I can completely see somebody carrying around an older weapon as their self-defense weapon if they're a firearm enthusiast and in an open-carry state. And modern ammo/older weapon discrepancy can easily be explained by someone who inherited the weapon and is ignorant of the difference (US solders, for example, have in my experience routinely done this same sort of thing, because they're quite enthusiastic about guns, but don't know much about non-modern weapons). In short, there's room for reasonable doubt here.

As for the ammunition concern, every sort of ammo has been scarce since...oh, about November 5th of 2008. So the scarcity of hollowpoint ammunition on the web isn't indicative of anything sinister or illegal - ammo companies are simply having trouble to manufacture enough to meet demand.

There was at one time an argument that if you load a weapon for self-defense at all you're actually planning on killing someone at some point with it (whether in self-defense or not), and thus are guilty of premeditation. However, this argument has, to my knowledge, never been successful, so try it at your own risk. With the number of valid reasons to purchase hollowpoint ammunition (with it not being illegal and all), if the only thing between the suspect and a self-defense exception in a homicide case is the suspect's choice of legal ammunition, he's gonna walk. Simple choice of legal ammunition has never been sufficient to trigger probable cause, over the last 50 years of US judicial jurisprudence.

What I'd really like to know from the OP is a) whether he's prosecution or defense, and b) what the details of his case are (assuming that doesn't cross politics).

...Actually, a mock trial on these boards wold be pretty interesting. Kinda like a Vs thread, but without all the fanboyism.

[Freshmeat]

I'm participating in a mock trial program, which is like Debate but more complicated, and the case involves guns. Whee! the murder weapon is an 1873 US Cavalry Colt Revolver. the police report states the pistol to be a "custer era" Colt US Cavalry, Single-action Army revolver, serial number 8462. authentication documents are in order. blah blah blah... Here's the meat of my question: the Ammunition retrieved from this weapon was Winchester .45 caliber Colt 225 gr. Silvertip Hollow Point bullets.

Just out of curiosity, is this solely meant as an intellectual exercise and is the way in which you debate and support your conclusions of paramount importance or is there actually a 'true' version of the murder and is this an exercise in research, cross-examination and logical deduction? If it's the latter, are you certain that whoever is grading you for this is actually familiar enough with weaponry? Because else you might be overthinking it.

Concerning premeditation: I'm not sure if this has been brought up already, but it seems kind of strange to use an SAA as a murder weapon. A premeditated murder would preferably be carried out with a disposable weapon that anyone could conceivably get their hands on and use effectively. As usual in these kinds of situation, a knife comes to mind.
A rare 'antique' revolver? That would narrow the list of suspects down to whoever could conceivably get their hands on said revolver, with the owner being the primary suspect. If the owner was the murderer and the crime was premeditated, and he wanted to get away with it and had no particular reason to use the SAA, why didn't this thought occur to him then? Although it's always possible that it was a simple oversight on his part, it still seems like something to keep in mind.

Granted, it's difficult to make an accurate assessment without all the facts, so take that anyway you'd like.

[Jack Squat]

Because it's always a good idea to ask yourself "Why is he buying that ammunition" when you see a person doing so? To not be at least a little suspicious when it comes to weapons seems a bit foolhardy, to me.

But questioning about everyone leads down an endless road of "what if" scenarios. Maybe the guy is buying those .40 S&W rounds for range practice or a handgun course, or maybe he's about to hold up a bank or go on a murder spree. It's not anyone's business to know why someone's purchasing something. I do understand cases where it may seem out of the ordinary and can cause suspicion ( i.e. a few boxes of handgun/rifle ammo, normal. A guy loading a pallet of black powder into his car not so much), but generally if what someone's doing is legal and doesn't directly impact my safety and wellbeing, I let them continue, keeping an eye out if it seems like it could turn wrong. I tend to pay more attention to people fidgeting around, specifically with their waistline, than I do to someone standing at the gun counter in Wal-Mart or ****'s.

Now, I'd start to worry if a guy started loading a magazine with recently bought ammo in the middle of the store, as that could impact my safety depending on where the magazine goes, but I can't say I've ever heard of that happening.

[Erloas]

Now, I'd start to worry if a guy started loading a magazine with recently bought ammo in the middle of the store, as that could impact my safety depending on where the magazine goes, but I can't say I've ever heard of that happening.

A roommate I had one time was working at a grocery store stocking at a night shift. Someone asked him where the knifes where and he told them. He heard shortly after that someone had taken a knife and robbed the store with it.

[Jack Squat]

A roommate I had one time was working at a grocery store stocking at a night shift. Someone asked him where the knifes where and he told them. He heard shortly after that someone had taken a knife and robbed the store with it.

Yeah, I was going to mention something about being suspicious of people opening kitchen knife packages as well, but I figured that loading the magazine was a good example of a legal activity that'd cause suspicion.

We had some guys try to rob the store I work at with a ballpoint pen handed to them by the cashier (to fill out a check). I say "try" because the cashier and I just kinda laughed at the guy holding it and they ended up running off. Point is you need to be wary of how the people are acting, not what they're looking for/buying.

In both your friends case and mine, the chances are so rare that it'd be foolish to change policy or be suspicious of everyone who asks where kitchen supplies are, or needs a pen to sign something. You have to give them the benefit of the doubt, but still be able to react properly in the case something unexpected happens.

[Starshade]

My first thought reading the first post, was that gun is too old to safely fire the standard ammo of newer guns.

I dont think its any unusual to find hollow point bullets, even if my country seem to prefer softer "dumdum" ammo instead, it exist. But no sane enthusiast or guy with knowhow would use standard ammo for a custer era peacemaker type pistol. Lighter loaded rounds should work, but i dont know if that ammo is concidered light, id guess not?

[skywalker]

But questioning about everyone leads down an endless road of "what if" scenarios. Maybe the guy is buying those .40 S&W rounds for range practice or a handgun course, or maybe he's about to hold up a bank or go on a murder spree. It's not anyone's business to know why someone's purchasing something. I do understand cases where it may seem out of the ordinary and can cause suspicion ( i.e. a few boxes of handgun/rifle ammo, normal. A guy loading a pallet of black powder into his car not so much), but generally if what someone's doing is legal and doesn't directly impact my safety and wellbeing, I let them continue, keeping an eye out if it seems like it could turn wrong. I tend to pay more attention to people fidgeting around, specifically with their waistline, than I do to someone standing at the gun counter in Wal-Mart or ****'s.

Now, I'd start to worry if a guy started loading a magazine with recently bought ammo in the middle of the store, as that could impact my safety depending on where the magazine goes, but I can't say I've ever heard of that happening.

I understand what you're saying completely.

I was just pointing out that unless you know and trust the person, it's always a good idea to go over in your mind "What is that person doing with that potentially dangerous object? Now that they have purchased it, I should probably keep a slightly better eye on them."

That's my philosophy. Not necessarily that I pay more attention to them than the guy fidgeting with his waistband, but that I pay attention to them at all. A little suspicion goes a long way, I find.

[THAC0]

I understand what you're saying completely.

I was just pointing out that unless you know and trust the person, it's always a good idea to go over in your mind "What is that person doing with that potentially dangerous object? Now that they have purchased it, I should probably keep a slightly better eye on them."

That's my philosophy. Not necessarily that I pay more attention to them than the guy fidgeting with his waistband, but that I pay attention to them at all. A little suspicion goes a long way, I find.

Unless that guy fidgeting with his waistband is actually carrying concealed. :smallwink: