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rezplz
2009-08-21, 12:21 PM
I couldn't find any rules on it, but if, for example, a wizard was falling and just before hitting the ground, would he get out of the falling damage or would he still have his momentum and take the damage anyway?

It's pretty important for multiple ideas that I have, one of which would include the "dumb-bomb" thread I posted earlier :).

quick_comment
2009-08-21, 12:24 PM
D&D does not follow real world dynamics.

Claudius Maximus
2009-08-21, 12:25 PM
You're not allowed to doctor the Giant's work for your purposes. I would suggest a new avatar and signature.

rezplz
2009-08-21, 12:36 PM
Claudius: Thanks, I didn't realize that. Gonna try to find a new one pretty soon.

Zeful
2009-08-21, 01:03 PM
D&D does not follow real world dynamics.

Which means, whichever way the DM rules is your answer.

nightwyrm
2009-08-21, 01:12 PM
If you think about it, teleportation must not transfer momentum. Consider that you're standing on a spinning ball orbiting around a giant fireball which is also rotating about the galactic core which in turn is speeding away from every other galaxy in the universe. You actually have a lot of momentum that you're not aware of.

Go to http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RequiredSecondaryPowers
and look up teleportation.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-21, 01:13 PM
D&D doesn't have momentum. You go from a standstill to your full running speed instantly, and stop again just as quickly. Gravity can cause falling damage, but you running into a wall at the same speed doesn't do anything; you just stop. You can't even use momentum to push someone backward; the check to bull rush someone is based on your Strength, not mass, and doesn't change if your speed is 10' or 100'.

Since D&D doesn't have momentum, there's nothing to conserve. Just as you can run full tilt and stop, a fast-moving character who Teleports can also stop at arrival, instantly and with no effort.

quick_comment
2009-08-21, 01:14 PM
Well, nobody says that we are on a rotating, orbiting planet in D&D. The prime material could be infinite. It could be a spherical manifold. Again, you cant use real world physics here.

Mr. Mud
2009-08-21, 01:19 PM
And since teleportation goes through the Astral Plane anyway, wouldn't this all "would-ve" momentum?

nightwyrm
2009-08-21, 01:23 PM
Well, nobody says that we are on a rotating, orbiting planet in D&D. The prime material could be infinite. It could be a spherical manifold. Again, you cant use real world physics here.

If we're not using real world physics, there's no reason to assume the law of conservation of momentum so the original question is moot from a physics standpoint. *shrug*

Short answer to the OP's question, the teleport spell does whatever your DM wants it to do.

Eldariel
2009-08-21, 04:51 PM
DMG has the passage about assuming normal laws of physics. As charging gives you a bonus to attacking, obviously the game models momentum to a degree. Also, flying rules. Given that Teleport doesn't alter the object it's moving, only moves it, it by default needs to maintain momentum; otherwise it would be a transmutation.

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-21, 05:04 PM
DMG has the passage about assuming normal laws of physics. As charging gives you a bonus to attacking, obviously the game models momentum to a degree. Given that Teleport doesn't alter the object it's moving, only moves it, it by default needs to maintain momentum; otherwise it would be a transmutation.

DnD only models physics sporadically and accidentally, and the way the rules are worded allows for prodigious, physics-defying feats of ungodly power without ever touching a spell or going beyond first level.

Don't believe me? It's fairly simple - here's one example of DnD momentum in action: You line up approximately 13,500 level 1 commoners, and all but the first two set a readied action to grapple the preceding commoner's grapple opponent away from them as soon as the preceding commoner grapples. Then the second commoner in line grapples the first one, and everyone's readied action goes off - each commoner will choose to fail every grapple check they make except the first one.

The first commoner will be transferred to the end of the line in under six seconds - easily going ten times the speed of sound. It wouldn't be stretching the point to say that everyone involved might die of sonic or fire damage, except that they won't - there is absolutely no penalty of any sort for doing this, other than the part where you have to convince 13,500 commoners to participate and line them up.

And that, kids, is how catgirls die. Don't bother trying to look for consistency and sense in your DnD physics, just take everyone else's excellent advice ask the DM what happens.

Chrono22
2009-08-21, 05:14 PM
No, because (don't quote me on this) teleport utilizes the astral plane.
If you had a feat or something that let you stop relying on other planes when you teleport, then your speed would be maintained.

Melamoto
2009-08-21, 05:19 PM
No, because (don't quote me on this) teleport utilizes the astral plane.
If you had a feat or something that let you stop relying on other planes when you teleport, then your speed would be maintained.
This, simply because it relies on game logic and not physics.

Drakevarg
2009-08-21, 05:41 PM
I'd largely go by a blend of Rule of Cool and Rule of Funny. In other words, the momentum you have after teleporting varies wildly depending on how much it wound amuse me.

For example, the 8-bit Theatre strip where Sarda teleports the Light Warriors, who are plummeting to their doom, into his cave. As they strike the ground with considerable force, he remarks: "Interesting. It seems teleportation does nothing at all to slow their momentum."

Alternatively, if this would not amuse me, being teleported rips you out of reality and puts you back somewhere else, leaving your momentum behind. (Which, I dunno, causes a sudden gust of wind directly below where you were.) You'd probably gasp for air immeadiantly after teleporting, too, since the air in your lungs were left behind.

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-21, 06:00 PM
This, simply because it relies on game logic and not physics.Didn't you see the part where he said not to quote him? :smalltongue:

But yeah, that's as good an explanation as any, and probably the one I'd go with.

Myou
2009-08-21, 06:07 PM
The assumed ruling would normally be that it doesn't, but there's no RAW. Preservation of momentum is just a nonstandard interpretation. But I would suggest that a DM should warn you of such a ruling in advance.

Haven
2009-08-21, 06:26 PM
Well, nobody says that we are on a rotating, orbiting planet in D&D.

Indeed. Mostly because Spelljammer is Love, and in that setting celestial bodies just sort of hang (unless they're e.g. comets).

Eldariel
2009-08-21, 06:52 PM
DnD only models physics sporadically and accidentally, and the way the rules are worded allows for prodigious, physics-defying feats of ungodly power without ever touching a spell or going beyond first level.

Don't believe me? It's fairly simple - here's one example of DnD momentum in action: You line up approximately 13,500 level 1 commoners, and all but the first two set a readied action to grapple the preceding commoner's grapple opponent away from them as soon as the preceding commoner grapples. Then the second commoner in line grapples the first one, and everyone's readied action goes off - each commoner will choose to fail every grapple check they make except the first one.

The first commoner will be transferred to the end of the line in under six seconds - easily going ten times the speed of sound. It wouldn't be stretching the point to say that everyone involved might die of sonic or fire damage, except that they won't - there is absolutely no penalty of any sort for doing this, other than the part where you have to convince 13,500 commoners to participate and line them up.

And that, kids, is how catgirls die. Don't bother trying to look for consistency and sense in your DnD physics, just take everyone else's excellent advice ask the DM what happens.

Obviously, but that's just turn structure abuse. Was funny the first time.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-21, 06:57 PM
No momentum for teleport effects, says I. For portals, however - Speedy thing goes in, speedy thing comes out.
:)
Everyone knows that.

Raum
2009-08-21, 06:59 PM
Does the teleport spell transfer momentum?Only if you want to either limit teleports to relatively short north / south hops...or spend a lot of time dealing with some fairly complex math to figure how fast you have to be moving to teleport from a pole to the equator. The general default is that it adjusts to your destination's frame of reference.

Fhaolan
2009-08-21, 07:55 PM
The general default is that it adjusts to your destination's frame of reference.

Of course, then you get the fun thought of 'What happens if the spell's frame of reference is moving, but you're not?'

Say you're in Eberron, and some bright person puts up a portal at the front of that magic train thing. Someone gets in the way, the portal scoops them up 'to protect them', and deposits them in a nice, well decorated waiting room with a tray of tea and cookies nearby. Unfortunately due to a misunderstanding in refrerence frames, the 'out-portal' is stable, so everyone picked up by the 'in-portal' is ejected at the speed of the train... making a bit of a mess on the far wall.

:smallbiggrin:

Darrin
2009-08-21, 09:51 PM
Before I started my current campaign, I seriously considered designing a campaign world where the entire economy was based on teleportation circles. Most of the world's arcane magic-users were required to be members of an uber-powerful monopolistic guild that was working very hard to suppress the big uber-secret that their entire transportation network was shunting excess heat from changes in momentum/potential energy/etc. into the planet's interior.

Since most of the raw materials on the planet were being transported from higher elevations to sea-level coastal cities, the excess heat was starting affect localized volcanic activity, increasing the planet's spin, and causing some other global warming type effects.

The campaign was going to start with the PCs investigating an insignificant local sub-station burnout that blows up the local lord's outhouse or something like that. Once they accidentally discover the Big Secret, then almost every single arcane magic-user on the planet is told to KILL THEM ON SIGHT, disintegrations totally OK.

To a certain extent, this was an attempt to provide a reasonably justifiable pretense for one of the common tropes in D&D: An endless series of random monsters suicidally attack the PCs for no apparent reason. The real reason: every wizard on the planet wants them dead, so they send every monster they can find after them.

Eventually, the PCs would discover that the original designer of the teleport network had noticed the flaw, and created an artifact to fix it. It just needed a millennium or two to collect the necessary magical energy... and eventually, a group of heroes to fetch it from the Fortress of Immediate Death at the Top of the World.

Mr. Mud
2009-08-21, 09:52 PM
No, because (don't quote me on this) teleport utilizes the astral plane.
If you had a feat or something that let you stop relying on other planes when you teleport, then your speed would be maintained.

My words exactly! And even so, It's not like you're falling into a portal. I think of it as more of the Star Trek transporter, no?
Save the cat girls!

AlexanderRM
2009-08-21, 10:43 PM
If you think about it, teleportation must not transfer momentum. Consider that you're standing on a spinning ball orbiting around a giant fireball which is also rotating about the galactic core which in turn is speeding away from every other galaxy in the universe. You actually have a lot of momentum that you're not aware of.


Even if the campaign is set on a world with all that (if you think about it, the way many methods of planar travel drop you onto a "random point on a plane" takes on a very different meaning if you have stars and galaxies... though I suppose regular flat infinite plane would have the same problem) then only the first on matters since you'll "need" the same momentum in the place you're teleporting to, and even that only if it's a significant distance.







The first commoner will be transferred to the end of the line in under six seconds - easily going ten times the speed of sound. It wouldn't be stretching the point to say that everyone involved might die of sonic or fire damage, except that they won't - there is absolutely no penalty of any sort for doing this, other than the part where you have to convince 13,500 commoners to participate and line them up.


That's where the DM comes in and says "no, you can't do that". Everyone always comes up with these elaborate, absurd plots and apparently fails to realize that there's a person running the game who can do stuff to prevent this.



And to the original question, you need to ask that of your DM.

Eldariel
2009-08-21, 10:51 PM
That's where the DM comes in and says "no, you can't do that". Everyone always comes up with these elaborate, absurd plots and apparently fails to realize that there's a person running the game who can do stuff to prevent this.

DMs vary, which is why you don't bring them to these discussions. Additionally, none of that stuff is meant to be used in game - just to see what the rules allow. That's why DM doesn't matter in this context, nor any of the others.

sofawall
2009-08-21, 11:06 PM
For instance, two of my current DMs would likely allow absurdities exactly once, then banish them forever.

Another would just laugh and say no.

I'm extremely lenient with stuff, but if you use something, it can be used against you. Gentleman's Agreement is a handy tool.

Zergrusheddie
2009-08-22, 07:24 AM
I'm extremely lenient with stuff, but if you use something, it can be used against you. Gentleman's Agreement is a handy tool.

The Gentleman's Agreement is the Geneva Convention of DnD.

Me: I cast Holy Word!
DM: Then I will cast Unholy Word...
Me: Ok, maybe I'll just melee this round.

And I'm sure when you hear "Save versus Disjunction" you have an instinct to immediately throw the PH at the DM.

Teleportation could transfer momentum, but that is up to the DM. When you run full out 120 feet, it's not that you go 120 feet and then stop; you are running and at the end of 6 seconds you just got to 120 feet. Here's where the silly thing comes in: if I beat you by 1 on my initiative, I can run 120 feet, something that requires all off 6 seconds to preform, before you are able to make a 5 foot shift.

How do we deal with these problems?

Simple, we ignore them! I don't want to play a game where I have to worry about my character feeling depressed because of all the goblins he has killed or role play how I am going to wipe myself while still in Full Plate. I don't want to worry about little things like "Physics" when I cast a Fireball exactly 20 feet away from me and it nearly hits my nose. Sure, I should suffer some ill effects but it's magic! If everyone is having fun, then what does it matter? :smalltongue:

Best of luck y'all!
-Eddie

Jack_Banzai
2009-08-22, 01:55 PM
I say Rule of Cool.

quick_comment
2009-08-22, 02:37 PM
If teleport does conserve momentum, then you can trivially use it to make a death cannon.

If teleport always puts you into rest with respect to some feature of where you are teleporting to, then you cant do very much thats interesting with it.

So I would rule no, teleportation does not conserve momentum, or energy.

Stephen_E
2009-08-23, 12:00 AM
The Witling by Vernor Vinge.

This book covers a world where people can teleport and momentum is conserved. If you wish to play teleportation that way you should read the book.

Stephen E

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-23, 01:38 AM
Me: I cast Holy Word!
DM: Then I will cast Unholy Word...
Me: Ok, maybe I'll just melee this round.I would sig this, but then you would sig this... okay, maybe I'll just melee this round.

blazinghand
2009-08-23, 05:50 AM
If you wanted to make things interesting, when casting a teleport spell while traveling uncontrollably (terminal velocity while falling, or being dragged along the ground, or being bound and gagged and strapped to a fast horse but happening to have the right metamagic) you could increase the possibility of being teleported to a different place or having a mishap.

Greater teleport would still be fine.

Lysander
2009-08-23, 08:24 AM
I would rule that it maintains the barest minimum of momentum. For example, in the new Star Trek movie Sulu and Kirk are plummeting to their deaths and get beamed up at the last second before striking the ground. They slam into the transporter room floor, but not quickly enough to injure them. After all, it can't mess up with tiny amounts of momentum or it would stop the flow of your own blood and cause all sorts of problems.

Myou
2009-08-23, 08:41 AM
I would rule that it maintains the barest minimum of momentum. For example, in the new Star Trek movie Sulu and Kirk are plummeting to their deaths and get beamed up at the last second before striking the ground. They slam into the transporter room floor, but not quickly enough to injure them. After all, it can't mess up with tiny amounts of momentum or it would stop the flow of your own blood and cause all sorts of problems.

It's magic.

Sholos
2009-08-23, 10:05 AM
Discworld teleportation conserves momentum, and it takes them a fair amount of time to figure out how to do it safely over long distances (they still don't get it quite right). I'd say skip the momentum conservation and just say "it's magic".

ericgrau
2009-08-23, 01:52 PM
The Gentleman's Agreement is the Geneva Convention of DnD.

Me: I cast Holy Word!
DM: Then I will cast Unholy Word...
Me: Ok, maybe I'll just melee this round.


I found no unholy word in the PH, but I did find words of chaos.

The thing about abusing spells like Holy Word is that they're not that bad if you look closer or actually try to use them. For example I saw a webcomic using Holy Word abuse with a +4 level item (which takes a round of painful enemy attacks to use btw)... to get 5 levels above the BBEG and paralyze him. Meaning he'd have to already be 1 level above the baddy's HD. Except monster HD tends to be higher than their CR, and BBEG CR tends to be higher than player level. And constructs, dragons, elementals, oozes, plants and undead are immune to paralysis. Sheesh, almost anything that matters. So there's no way this could have actually worked.

Holy Word is more of an AoE peon killing bomb. Half the time you could probably do the same with a tweaked out (but probably still lower level) fireball.

Myou
2009-08-23, 01:58 PM
I found no unholy word in the PH, but I did find words of chaos.

The thing about abusing spells like Holy Word is that they're not that bad if you look closer or actually try to use them. For example I saw a webcomic using Holy Word abuse with a +4 level item... to get 5 levels above the BBEG and paralyze him. Meaning he'd have to already be 1 level above the baddy's HD. Except monster HD tends to be higher than their CR, and BBEG CR tends to be higher than player level. And constructs, dragons, elementals, oozes, plants and undead are immune to paralysis. Sheesh, almost anything that matters. So there's no way this could have actually worked.

Holy Word is more of an AoE peon killing bomb. Half the time you could probably do the same with a lower level fireball.

The problem as I understand it is that if you stack enough extra caster levels you can beat the BBEG without him even getting a saving throw.

ericgrau
2009-08-23, 01:59 PM
Hence the +4 item which I already included. And there's an expensive but permanent +1 item you can get. After that you're stuck in core.

Myou
2009-08-23, 02:01 PM
Hence the +4 item which I already included. And there's an expensive but permanent +1 item you can get. After that you're stuck in core.

Yes, I think it's only out of core that the trouble starts.

olentu
2009-08-23, 02:51 PM
Yes, I think it's only out of core that the trouble starts.

Well if I am remembering the class correctly the hierophant class can give a boost to very focused builds though one looses out on higher level spells.

Edit: Also the domains I think.

ericgrau
2009-08-23, 03:08 PM
Domain adds +1. Hierophant does not advance spellcasting, only caster level. Then a special ability option adds another +1 each level. So while your holy words are strong when you finally hit level 18, you don't have very many of them and you're way behind on casting. BAB also suffers. Given that HD usually progresses faster than CR and all the creature types that are immune to it, by the time you do finally hit level 18, it will rarely work anyway.

Back on topic, I think momentum transfer is more likely to hurt the player than anything. Falling object cheese is doable (and bannable) w/ or w/o it. But cheese is often like this: if it's really bad then you're probably stretching the meaning of the rules a bit too far. Or even if the DM somehow believes it's still technically within the rules (yet incredibly crazy), that's usually only b/c he wants to ban it anyway. And I'm not gonna even begin to get into the 2-3+ book combo cheese. This is only referring to core and maybe some sensible non-core book abilities.

Eldariel
2009-08-23, 03:13 PM
The real issue with Holy Word-line (Blasphemy, Dictum, Word of Chaos are the other 3) is that it's either useless or broken. It's useless if you can't reach certain caster level (using whatever you have available of Ioun Stone, Hierophant, Beads of Karma, Book of Exalted Deeds and whatever out of core stuff works; Ankh of Ascension, Divine Spell Power, etc.) and broken if you can. It's rarely if ever useful in PCs' hands. I much prefer mook killers like Cloudkill since they fail to be busted even if you reach certain CL due to offering a save - they lack the broken potential.

No Save Just Die is never a good thing, especially in games with creatures with power over and under their HD (killing a CR appropriate Pit Fiend with Holy Word (their HD is 2 under their CR) is easy, while killing a CR appropriate Red Dragon (their HD is much much higher than their CR) is hard).

ericgrau
2009-08-23, 03:17 PM
Ah, so blasphemy is the "unholy word".

And clerics don't get cloudkill. So really we're back to cleric spells being weaker than wizard spells, which is just fine and dandy IMO. Ya, holy word is a mook killer. In fact, the few creature types that aren't immune are mostly the less fantastic humanoids, beasts, etc. anyway. Even demons (you can go after the lesser ones). That doesn't mean it sucks without cheese. It just means you only prepare it when fighting mooks. I mean, that's kinda like saying a cheeseless magic missile sucks b/c it's a low damage no-save spell. Ya, if you just want to damage regular things it does. But everyone knows it has its particular uses.

Aquillion
2009-08-23, 03:18 PM
"Momentum, a function of mass and velocity, is conserved between teleportations. In layman's terms, 'Speedy thing goes in, speedy thing comes out.'"

Eldariel
2009-08-23, 03:40 PM
Ah, so blasphemy is the "unholy word".

And clerics don't get cloudkill. So really we're back to cleric spells being weaker than wizard spells, which is just fine and dandy IMO. Ya, holy word is a mook killer. In fact, the few creature types that aren't immune are mostly the less fantastic humanoids, beasts, etc. anyway. Even demons (you can go after the lesser ones). That doesn't mean it sucks without cheese. It just means you only prepare it when fighting mooks. I mean, that's kinda like saying a cheeseless magic missile sucks b/c it's a low damage no-save spell. Ya, if you just want to damage regular things it does. But everyone knows it has its particular uses.

...you don't prepare 7th level spells for mook killing. Ever. They're used for doing something real. And about Clerics not getting Cloudkill; the point is that Cloudkill is a fair spell while these aren't. Cloudkill can never kill creatures of over 3 HD without a save, so heroic creatures are guaranteed a save. Just plain killing things without a save with a spell is not fair.

If a Half-Fiend Ancient Black Dragon (CR 22 - level 20 PCs could handle two in a day) casts Blasphemy at level 20 PCs (without specific immunities, at any rate), it'll kill the whole party, no save (except for evil ones, obviously). That's principally what's wrong with the spell. If it was casting anything else, they'd get a save and would have a very solid chance of passing. Since he casts Blasphemy, they all just die. A fair printing of the line would include a save for ~all over 10 HD creatures no matter what. Even just core includes means to get 7 points over your level with CL.

That allows you to paralyze, blind and deafen anything with 2 HD more than you. Sure, it won't work on high HD opponents, but at that point your DM just can't really send monsters with CR = HD at you simply because even if they're couple of levels higher than you, they'd still just get paralyzed, no save. If they have some buffs up to protect them, it's a simple matter for the party arcanist to act first and Dispel them (or hell, the Cleric to use Wand of Quicken on Greater Dispel Magic with his CL boosts to Dispel). Two spells, two actions, dead encounter. That just isn't right. Nothing should be "yeah, sure, your saves are all great, you have more AC than I can hit and more HP than I can deal as damage, but you died".

Drakevarg
2009-08-23, 03:57 PM
"Momentum, a function of mass and velocity, is conserved between teleportations. In layman's terms, 'Speedy thing goes in, speedy thing comes out.'"

Well that would work for, say, Gate, but teleportation doesn't nessicarily have anything going in OR out. Just an object very abruptly being elsewhere.