[d20r, Skill] Initiative

[Fax Celestis]

Initiative (Dex)
The Initiative skill is used to determine starting placement in combat. It can also be used to negate a sneak attack.

Initiative
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. Characters act in order, counting down from highest result to lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing).

If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll again to determine which one of them goes before the other.

Action
Making an Initiative check requires no action.

Try Again
You may not try again on an Initiative check to determine your placement in combat.

Danger Sense
You can use the Initiative skill to negate a Sneak Attack or prevent being flat-footed.

Use
When being attacked by a precision attack (such as Strafe, Ambush, or Sneak Attack), you may attempt to negate the extra damage as an immediate action with an Initiative check versus a DC of 15 + the total number of extra dice from the precision attack + the attacker's Dexterity modifier. If you are full-attacked, you must choose which attack in the full-attack action to negate, but you must choose which attack to negate before seeing the results of the attack roll.

When you are flat-footed, you may attempt to negate your flat-footed condition against a single attack as an immediate action. Unlike most immediate actions, you can use this ability when flat-footed. The DC to prevent being flat-footed against a single attack is 10 plus the attacker's total Attack Bonus (not their Base Attack Bonus). If you are full-attacked, you must choose which attack in the full-attack action to negate, but you must choose which attack to negate before seeing the results of the attack roll.

Action
Danger Sense is an immediate action. Unlike most immediate actions, you may use it when you are flat-footed, but only to prevent being flat-footed. You may not attempt to prevent a sneak attack when flat-footed.

Try Again
You may not try again when using Danger Sense.

[Myou]

"If you are full-attacked, you must choose which attack in the full-attack action to negate."

Before or after the attack rolls and before or after the damage rolls?

[Fax Celestis]

"If you are full-attacked, you must choose which attack in the full-attack action to negate."

Before or after the attack rolls and before or after the damage rolls?

Before the attack rolls. Fixing...

EDIT: There, try that text.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Initiative as a skill... that's quite clever. And the Danger Sense use is also very handy. Perhaps also let it be used to avoid traps as well?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Well, I love the idea of making it a skill, but this does raise some concerns.

Since this is an all but mandatory skill (you either put no ranks in it, or keep it almost maxed...I see little alternatives to be really competitive), it effectively takes away a skill point from all classes except those who never want to go first. If you don't have it maxed, you'll usually be going last, so it seems likely it'll be all or nothing.

Secondly, having a single skill that can negate a whole classes shtick (sneak attack, for example) seems a little unbalanced: it's the trouble with Tumble for AoO dependent builds, and why opposed checks are often houseruled in instead of the default Tumble rules.

I'd rather see Danger Sense as a seperate, class or feat given ability that works as described here, rather than an inherent part of the skill itself. I just feel that it may negate the Rogue a little to much.

[Gorgondantess]

What Djinn said.:smallwink:
Also, I personally am a bit wary of giving a skill intrinsic combat value. It tends to deprecate the value of other skills, at least from a purely mechanical viewpoint. Many people put full ranks in tumble even if it's cross-class just because it's a nice skill to have, allowing for more combat options.

[Elfin]

Very clever; I like the idea. However, I think it'd work just fine without the Danger Sense...

[Fax Celestis]

Since this is an all but mandatory skill (you either put no ranks in it, or keep it almost maxed...I see little alternatives to be really competitive), it effectively takes away a skill point from all classes except those who never want to go first. If you don't have it maxed, you'll usually be going last, so it seems likely it'll be all or nothing.Class skills use ranks or half-level, whichever is higher. Also, less skills overall means a better spread of points.


Secondly, having a single skill that can negate a whole classes shtick (sneak attack, for example) seems a little unbalanced: it's the trouble with Tumble for AoO dependent builds, and why opposed checks are often houseruled in instead of the default Tumble rules.

I'd rather see Danger Sense as a seperate, class or feat given ability that works as described here, rather than an inherent part of the skill itself. I just feel that it may negate the Rogue a little to much.Do note that Danger Sense is both an immediate action (thereby denying you next round's swift action to do something nice with) and also only affects one stab out of a potential eight or more. Also, the DC is incredible: a 10th level rogue has 5d6 Sneak Attack and likely a Dex of +6 or more. DC 26 to negate one stab.

Also, I personally am a bit wary of giving a skill intrinsic combat value. It tends to deprecate the value of other skills, at least from a purely mechanical viewpoint. Many people put full ranks in tumble even if it's cross-class just because it's a nice skill to have, allowing for more combat options.Most skills should have combat value, honestly. I'll be giving more of them combat-applicability.

[afroakuma]

Initiative as a skill... that's quite clever. And the Danger Sense use is also very handy. Perhaps also let it be used to avoid traps as well?

Reflex saves do that already. Fax tried the same thing. :smallamused:

Fax covered most of the other major concerns thus far.

Also, do recall that some classes have the ability to tweak initiative order, or have alternate bonuses to keep them competitive. Those who are actually practiced in reacting, however, naturally end up more talented at it, which is nice.

Lastly, since some of the classes that can take it are those one would expect to be able to elude sneak attacks, such as Rogues, it all really pans out rather nicely.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Reflex saves do that already. Fax tried the same thing. :smallamused:

Fax covered most of the other major concerns thus far.

Also, do recall that some classes have the ability to tweak initiative order, or have alternate bonuses to keep them competitive. Those who are actually practiced in reacting, however, naturally end up more talented at it, which is nice.

Lastly, since some of the classes that can take it are those one would expect to be able to elude sneak attacks, such as Rogues, it all really pans out rather nicely.

So basically Danger Sense replaces Improved Uncanny Dodge?

[Cedrass]

It's good work as always Fax. However, as much as I liked the way you made Grapple into a skill, I fail to see why we need initiative to be a skill...

It's not like the Initiative mechanics of 3.5 where broken or something. I'll admit it didn't really scale up with level, but that is hardly an issue IMO. I am not saying you did not do a good job with the skill, I just can see how this is "better" than what we already had.

[Myou]

Before the attack rolls. Fixing...

EDIT: There, try that text.

Looks good. ^^

[Fax Celestis]

It's good work as always Fax. However, as much as I liked the way you made Grapple into a skill, I fail to see why we need initiative to be a skill...

It's not like the Initiative mechanics of 3.5 where broken or something. I'll admit it didn't really scale up with level, but that is hardly an issue IMO. I am not saying you did not do a good job with the skill, I just can see how this is "better" than what we already had.

SWSaga did it, and I liked its use there.

[afroakuma]

So basically Danger Sense replaces Improved Uncanny Dodge?

I don't know if I convinced him of that, but I doubt it.

What I was gunning for is that rogues who landed on IUD and then multiclassed out to, say, fighter, playing "thug" types, would logically be less adept at eluding sneak attacks than, say, a rogue who went assassin, ninja or what have you.

[vegetalss4]

Do note that Danger Sense is both an immediate action (thereby denying you next round's swift action to do something nice with) and also only affects one stab out of a potential eight or more. Also, the DC is incredible: a 10th level rogue has 5d6 Sneak Attack and likely a Dex of +6 or more. DC 26 to negate one stab.


did you change the maximum number of ranks you can have in a skill? because otherwise dc 26 at level 10 isn't so high, 13 ranks + 3 dex (doable by many) = needs a 10 on a d20 = a 55% change that the rouge loses his special power, also it is another roll thus making combat take longer

[lsfreak]

In standard 3.5 there might be an issue of getting +10 or +30 items of initiative; did you do away with/alter these? Other than that, having a chance of rid of sneak attack 1/round at the cost of your immediate/swift action seems fine.

[Roderick_BR]

Doesn't Star Wars Saga use something like it? I think it's a neat idea, as long as you avoid skill pumping abuse.

[shadowfox]

The rate at which the skill progresses outclasses the rate at which Sneak Attack progresses. Considering that Sneak Attack is a very big function of Rogues, it's just kinda mean. And, the whole deal with being flat-footed is that you can't react properly. You might want to consider it being able to allow the user as not being flanked for an attack (which can help against Sneak Attack damage).

[lesser_minion]

The characters who invest in this skill are likely to be the characters who currently cannot be flanked except by rogues with a four-level advantage and who are not penalised for being flat-footed or unable to see their attackers.

The Danger Sense thing only serves two purposes:

Opens that option up to more characters Reduces the number of opponent types who cannot be affected by Sneak Attacks at all.


@Fax: The current rules for starting combat are a bit of a mess. Are there any other changes in the pipeline for them?

[Fax Celestis]

The current rules for starting combat are a bit of a mess. Are there any other changes in the pipeline for them?

Prrrrrrobably. I haven't gotten there yet.

As far as sneak-attack immunity, I'm considering removing it from everything except oozes and elementals: sure, a skeleton may not have guts, but he certainly has a structurally important vertebra.

[Zeta Kai]

Prrrrrrobably. I haven't gotten there yet.

As far as sneak-attack immunity, I'm considering removing it from everything except oozes and elementals: sure, a skeleton may not have guts, but he certainly has a structurally important vertebra.

That would be cool. I've house-ruled that SA works on anything with physical joints. This includes constructs & the undead, but excludes elementals & oozes. The only noticeable difference is that my rogues are happier & I don't have to worry so much about my encounter composition. The game balance hasn't been affected in any significant manner.

[lesser_minion]

Prrrrrrobably. I haven't gotten there yet.

As far as sneak-attack immunity, I'm considering removing it from everything except oozes and elementals: sure, a skeleton may not have guts, but he certainly has a structurally important vertebra.

I think that would probably work pretty well. Modern depictions of zombies certainly have vital points, and the same goes for vampires. Skeletons are really just extra-rotted zombies.

It also does very little to strain disbelief to imagine rogues learning to be 'extra fast' or 'extra brutal' when hitting things that aren't able to respond properly.

[Draz74]

As far as sneak-attack immunity, I'm considering removing it from everything except oozes and elementals

Approve. And even then, Earth Elementals should have structural vulnerabilities too.

[Starbuck_II]

I don't know. Total negation seems kinda mean to Rogue.
Why not 1/2 damage?
Add:
"If beat their check by 10 or more, negate damage."

So they can be negated, but not often.

[Icewalker]

I agree that the DC is a little too low, it seems you're being rather harsh to rogues.

Now, I haven't followed d20r too closely, so it's possible that given your rogues and other setups that's much more reasonable. But if they're like they are in standard 3.5, it doesn't seem like that high of a DC if it gives you the opportunity to negate a sneak attack once per round.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Is this skill in any of the Skill Sets? If not, who can gain access to it? Do you have to blow a Skill Set choice to gain access to this skill?

[Fax Celestis]

Is this skill in any of the Skill Sets? If not, who can gain access to it? Do you have to blow a Skill Set choice to gain access to this skill?

It is not in any skill set. Rogues, Rangers, and Warlords have access. You can drop a feat to get it as a class skill permanently, or you can cross-class ranks in it.