Level adjustment or not? That is the question (DnD 3.5)

[Laharal]

Hi,
As I understand the LA mechanic, it is made so that characters with lower LA can keep up in ''effectivness'. with higher LA characters who grow slower.

My question is: If we are all of the same LA (+1 for example), can we play without the LA penalty rule? Seriously if everyone is the same LA, no one is penalized, what good will it give to the campaign if we level up slower than normal?

Many thanks

[Fax Celestis]

Hi,
As I understand the LA mechanic, it is made so that characters with lower LA can keep up in ''effectivness'. with higher LA characters who grow slower.

My question is: If we are all of the same LA (+1 for example), can we play without the LA penalty rule? Seriously if everyone is the same LA, no one is penalized, what good will it give to the campaign if we level up slower than normal?

Many thanks

You pretty much got it. If everyone's playing the same 'adjust', you should all be able to treat it as a null value (or, even if you're not, you can get away with adjusting the adjustment [sic] by the lowest level adjustment used). Your DM, however, should probably treat you guys as if you were that amount higher in levels when designing encounters.

[olentu]

Hi,
As I understand the LA mechanic, it is made so that characters with lower LA can keep up in ''effectivness'. with higher LA characters who grow slower.

My question is: If we are all of the same LA (+1 for example), can we play without the LA penalty rule? Seriously if everyone is the same LA, no one is penalized, what good will it give to the campaign if we level up slower than normal?

Many thanks

Well from what I can tell if CR worked properly then LA would be used to calculate the difficulty of various encounters of different CR.

[PId6]

Thing to keep in mind is, not all LA is equal. Having planetouched alongside mineral warriors is not at all fair. That's certainly true of LA +0 as well (human vs almost anything else) but the higher power level of LA +1 can make this difference more blatant.

That said, as long as nobody goes for some of the more broken LA +1's (or if everybody does it, I guess), it really shouldn't be a problem ignoring LA entirely.

[sofawall]

CR will have to adjust downwards as well, remember.

[Kelpstrand]

Your ECL is used to determine ELs of opposition forces. It is not just to penalize relative to other players, but also relative to monsters.'

That said, most LA is not worth itself in number, so if you are all +1 LA races, I'd just ignore it, if you are all +5 LA races, I'd say that you should be treated like characters of class level +2.

[Jalor]

Thing to keep in mind is, not all LA is equal. Having planetouched alongside mineral warriors is not at all fair. That's certainly true of LA +0 as well (human vs almost anything else) but the higher power level of LA +1 can make this difference more blatant.

That said, as long as nobody goes for some of the more broken LA +1's (or if everybody does it, I guess), it really shouldn't be a problem ignoring LA entirely.

Just ban Mineral Warrior, Divine Minion, Feral, Half-Minotaur, and Lolth-Touched like you're supposed to.

Maybe Dark Creature as well, but probably not. It is really strong for sneaky types (Shadow Hand/Diamond Mind Swordsages, for instance), but it's not quite ban-worthy.

[Fax Celestis]

Just ban Mineral Warrior, Divine Minion, Feral, Half-Minotaur, and Lolth-Touched like you're supposed to.

Maybe Dark Creature as well, but probably not. It is really strong for sneaky types (Shadow Hand/Diamond Mind Swordsages, for instance), but it's not quite ban-worthy.

I'd say Lolth-Touched isn't ban-worthy either. It's a good template, but it's not zomgwtf.

[Milskidasith]

Also, I don't see Human being that much above other LA 0 races, especially considering you can factor in stuff like Lesser Aasimar (all the goodies of an Aasimar for no downsides!).

Also, if you are all LA +2, but some of you have the Saint template and other have... uhh... most everything else, you aren't going to be on even footing at the same LA.

[sofawall]

I'd say Lolth-Touched isn't ban-worthy either. It's a good template, but it's not zomgwtf.

waitwhat.

Most people consider fear immunity and +6 str/con pretty fearful. I mean, you're automatically CE, but still.

Compare to Mineral Warrior. Minus alignment, I'd take Lolth every time.

[Fax Celestis]

waitwhat.

Most people consider fear immunity and +6 str/con pretty fearful. I mean, you're automatically CE, but still.

Compare to Mineral Warrior. Minus alignment, I'd take Lolth every time.

Oh, come on. That's what, +3 to-hit, +3 to +5 damage, +3 HP a level, +3 fort saves, and immunity to fear. Yeehaw. You have the equivalent of a bunch of fighter feats (or a raging barbarian) and a paladin standing nearby.

I'd rather spend my LA on Phrenic and get a stack of PLAs and +Int, or on Half-Fey and get +Cha and immunity to enchantments (which generally includes fear) and flight and a big ol' stack of SLAs.

[sofawall]

Most beatsticks are unlikely to want mental stats and caster-like abilities over 3 to hit, 3-5 damage and 3 hp per level.

[Fax Celestis]

Most beatsticks are unlikely to want mental stats and caster-like abilities over 3 to hit, 3-5 damage and 3 hp per level.

In that instance, I'd still prefer Insectoid, Entomantothrope/Lycanthrope, Half-Dragon, Mineral Warrior... I can get attack/damage bonuses from spells and gear. Abilities--especially unique abilities--are harder to get.

Hide in Plain Sight, for instance, is available on the Dark template, along with a speed boost and a resistance to cold for +1 LA. I'd go for that over Lolth-Touched any day. Or the breath weapon on the Half-Dragon feat (along with the retyping).

The point is, while the Lolth-touched template is numerically strong, it doesn't do anything unique--and as such, it's weak in comparison to other templates that may give lower "adds" but have more powerful and/or unique and/or hard to obtain effects.

[sofawall]

Of the LA+1 templates, Lolth-touched is unlikely to be supplanted. Sure, Dark is powerful, but when is a berzerker going to use HipS? Speed is useful, but come on. Boot of striding and springing, Barbarian fast movement (although, really when do barbs have fast movement anymore?), Haste.

Cold resist? Pah!

And as for the others you listed, Half-Dragon. If I want a breath weapon, I can take the LA+0 Dragonborn. If I want beatstick stats, I can take Lolth-touched at LA+1. Half-Dragon is a weak LA+3, and I can't see myself taking it as an optimal choice.

Mineral Warrior is very good. I will not deny its power.

Lycanthrope? Horrible, horrible template, power-wise. Sure, it makes an interesting character, but in terms of numbers and op-fu, Lolth-touched or Mineral Warrior kick it in the keister.

I know not of insectoid.

[PId6]

Also, I don't see Human being that much above other LA 0 races, especially considering you can factor in stuff like Lesser Aasimar (all the goodies of an Aasimar for no downsides!).
Human's bonus feat is just invaluable to nearly any build, and the skill boost is always nice. Lesser Aasimar/Tiefling have nice stat gains but they're still not as generally useful as humans.

Best LA+0 races overall that I know of are human, Lesser Aasimar/Tiefling, Dwarf, Water Orc, Dragonborn Water Orc (or Dragonborn anything), Strongheart Halfing, Whisper Gnome, and maybe a few others I can't remember. And all of the races on this list besides humans are only good for certain types of characters; Lesser Aasimar for paladins and clerics, Lesser Tieflings for rogues and wizards, Dwarf/Water Orc/Dragonborn for melee characters, Strongheart Halfling/Whisper Gnome for rogue-types and maybe some casters. But none of these have the sheer breath of usefulness as humans have. With 99% of classes, you can't go wrong with human, and that's saying something.

[Kelpstrand]

Yeah, I can't help but notice that basically everything suggested so far by fax save mineral warrior has strictly more LA.

Yes +2 LA is going to have better stuff than +1 LA, but is it better than +1 LA +a class level?

[Kelpstrand]

Human's bonus feat is just invaluable to nearly any build, and the skill boost is always nice. Lesser Aasimar/Tiefling have nice stat gains but they're still not as generally useful as humans.

Best LA+0 races overall that I know of are human, Lesser Aasimar/Tiefling, Dwarf, Water Orc, Dragonborn Water Orc (or Dragonborn anything), Strongheart Halfing, Whisper Gnome, and maybe a few others I can't remember. And all of the races on this list besides humans are only good for certain types of characters; Lesser Aasimar for paladins and clerics, Lesser Tieflings for rogues and wizards, Dwarf/Water Orc/Dragonborn for melee characters, Strongheart Halfling/Whisper Gnome for rogue-types and maybe some casters. But none of these have the sheer breath of usefulness as humans have. With 99% of classes, you can't go wrong with human, and that's saying something.

I think you are drastically over valuing human.

Specialization is the spice of life, making a Rogue? Whisper Gnome. Making a Fighter? Dragonborn Water Orc. Making a Wizard? Dragonborn Fire Elf. Making a Druid? Anthro anything, Lesser Aasimar. Making a Cleric? Lesser Aasimar.

Extra feats usually aren't comparable to +2 casting stat or +4 to Str and Con, or +2 dex and a bunch of skill bonuses.

Being second best for 90% of classes is still second best.

[Milskidasith]

See, I find Humans to be useful if, after taking two flaws, you still need a feat for at that one level for that one build... and generally, when a build relies on feats that much, it's either too specialized, or the kind of cheese that would get banned at the table. I won't deny it's usefulness in a game, but if you aren't going for an incredibly specific build, human isn't that great compared to some races.

I'm sure there will be an example of a build that is feat starved and not super specialized or cheesy, but you can generally get enough for a build from levelling up.

[PId6]

I think you are drastically over valuing human.

Being second best for 90% of classes is still second best.
Not when having that bonus feat can mean finishing that feat chain just a little sooner or getting into that PrC just a little faster. Besides, humans are better the fewer supplements you allow; having no flaws drastically make the bonus feat count for more, and most of the other good races are found in more obscure supplements that are much less likely to be allowed.

[Kelpstrand]

Not when having that bonus feat can mean finishing that feat chain just a little sooner or getting into that PrC just a little faster. Besides, humans are better the fewer supplements you allow; having no flaws drastically make the bonus feat count for more, and most of the other good races are found in more obscure supplements that are much less likely to be allowed.

Yes, that is all true. But you will find a hard to showing me a character with a feat chain that is worth more than +2-4 to stats, and you seriously only get that benefit for 3 levels, and only if it's longer than 4 feats long and starts at level 1. Also, I'm not saying they aren't good in core only, just that those other races are better for the vast majority of builds, if they are allowed. Human is not better than most +0 races, it's better than the crappy ones, and about on par with the good ones.

[sofawall]

At the moment, Human/Non-Human means 5 to hit and damage for me. Let's see orc do that.

[Eldariel]

Yes, that is all true. But you will find a hard to showing me a character with a feat chain that is worth more than +2-4 to stats, and you seriously only get that benefit for 3 levels, and only if it's longer than 4 feats long and starts at level 1. Also, I'm not saying they aren't good in core only, just that those other races are better for the vast majority of builds, if they are allowed. Human is not better than most +0 races, it's better than the crappy ones, and about on par with the good ones.

Any Factotum? Extra Font of Inspiration is always needed. Also any DMM Cleric without Nightsticks. Any Wizard with access to Easy/Practical Metamagic. Summoner Druid. Hell, I've built many a Barbarian and Fighter that desperately need the extra feat (a Fighter I crammed together for Fighter 20-optimization would end up losing one of: Mage Slayer/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper/Knockback/Defensive Sweep/Imperious Command/Resolute/Stand Still/Thicket of Blades/Robilar's Gambit - tell me which of those is worth less than +2-+4 to Str - hell, extra feats could be used for Karmic Strike, Rage-feats with Barb dip, etc. so it's not like Orc would become a better choice with just 1-2 more feats).

There's a reason like 70% of the optimized char ops builds are (Silverbrow) Humans or Strongheart Halflings; even the last feat you pick when the list is sufficiently long is going to be superior to +2 to your primary (and maybe secondary) stat, especially since doing strong stuff generally involves multiple specializations and as such immense feat costs. Also, entering the PrC ASAP occasionally requires either feat dips or Human, as does keeping the character playable before entering the PrC. Just try to make a Frenzied Berserker that also fits Steadfast Determination ('cause you don't want to fail that DC 20 Will-save to end Frenzy) and Extra Rage ('cause you might have more than 1 encounter per day) in addition to the prereqs and still gets to FB on 7.

[Kelpstrand]

Any Factotum? Extra Font of Inspiration is always needed. Also any DMM Cleric without Nightsticks. Any Wizard with access to Easy/Practical Metamagic. Summoner Druid. Hell, I've built many a Barbarian and Fighter that desperately need the extra feat (a Fighter I crammed together for Fighter 20-optimization would end up losing one of: Mage Slayer/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper/Knockback/Defensive Sweep/Imperious Command/Resolute/Stand Still/Thicket of Blades/Robilar's Gambit - tell me which of those is worth less than +2-+4 to Str - hell, extra feats could be used for Karmic Strike, Rage-feats with Barb dip, etc. so it's not like Orc would become a better choice with just 1-2 more feats).

There's a reason like 70% of the optimized char ops builds are (Silverbrow) Humans or Strongheart Halflings; even the last feat you pick when the list is sufficiently long is going to be superior to +2 to your primary (and maybe secondary) stat, especially since doing strong stuff generally involves multiple specializations and as such immense feat costs. Also, entering the PrC ASAP occasionally requires either feat dips or Human, as does keeping the character playable before entering the PrC. Just try to make a Frenzied Berserker that also fits Steadfast Determination ('cause you don't want to fail that DC 20 Will-save to end Frenzy) and Extra Rage ('cause you might have more than 1 encounter per day) in addition to the prereqs and still gets to FB on 7.

So Metacheese, FoI cheese, DMM Cheese, and 1000 damage on a charge cheese.

Honestly, you can do just fine with only 500 damage on a charge, and only 40 negative levels a round.

There's a reason most optimized Chap Op builds are Elves and Anthropomorphic bats, and Dragonborn Xs it's because casters are awesome, and casting stat boosts are awesome, and stat boosts are awesome. Give me a feet list in which your worst feats gives +5 to hit and damage.

[Milskidasith]

More importantly, give me a build listed there that isn't the kind of cheese that would get banned at the table. It really doesn't matter if CharOP an get me an ubercharger for a million damage who only does a few tens of thousands without that one last feat, none of them are going to be allowed on a table because it's going to either end an encounter instantly or force the DM to make your character completely useless, so it really wouldn't be fun to play either way.

Yes, a Human gets a bonus feat that can be the capstone on getting some ungodly combination of feats for supercheese. But it's still at the level of cheese where no DM would let you do it, with or without the bonus feat.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Yes, that is all true. But you will find a hard to showing me a character with a feat chain that is worth more than +2-4 to stats, and you seriously only get that benefit for 3 levels, and only if it's longer than 4 feats long and starts at level 1. Also, I'm not saying they aren't good in core only, just that those other races are better for the vast majority of builds, if they are allowed. Human is not better than most +0 races, it's better than the crappy ones, and about on par with the good ones.Any TWF Rogue? Really, you're looking at needing Craven, TWF/ITWF/TWD, WepFinesse, which leaves you with 3 more feats to choose before 20. Any PrCing will take out at least one of those(more likely 3 since so many of the Rogue PrCs require Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack or similar idiocy), not to mention that many games don't pass 12. Almost every character I've ever played was desperate for more feats(the sole exception being the Core-only Druid I made for Test of Spite who could have taken Toughness 5 times for all I cared, most Core feats sucked for him).

[PId6]

I think the idea of "cheese" is no longer relevant when the DM's allowing anthropomorphic bats as characters.

[sofawall]

Combat Casting (first level)
Iron Will (Otyguh Hole)
Extend (human)
Persist (Level 6)
DMM:Persist (metamagic storm)
Combat Reflexes (wizard bonus 1)
Weapon Focus: Light Mace (Wizard bonus 5)
Lightning Maces (level 9)
EWP: (Bastard Sword) (level 3)
Arcane Strike (level 12)
Dodge (Level 15)
Knowledge Devotion (Level 18)
TWF (Flaw)
Power Attack (Flaw)
ITWF (Gloves of the Balanced Hand)

That's impossible to get without human, and my gish uses every single one of those. Yes, even Dodge. Prereq.

EDIT: By the way, the level listed isn't when you actually gain them, it's more just so I can count how many feats I used up.

[Eldariel]

So Metacheese, FoI cheese, DMM Cheese, and 1000 damage on a charge cheese.

Honestly, you can do just fine with only 500 damage on a charge, and only 40 negative levels a round.

...yeah, about that, the 1000-damage part comes only one quarter from the feats. You need all the feats as a Fighter for reasonable high-level damage, especially factoring in misses (because when you aren't running around with Persistent Wraithblades, you won't be hitting). Uhm...Twice-Betrayer is a Human. Jack-B'-Quick is a Human. Cheater of Mystra is a Human. And so on.

Show me one build without vast accessibility limitations where the bonus feat doesn't make you better than +2 in your primary stat in the long run (I'll freely admit that level 1 games reward focus on your primary stat for the second bonus spell on that level, and the "free" Spell Focus).


Milki: We aren't talking about cheese here. It's something Kelp decided to cram to the discussion. Just taking three feat paths as a Fighter fills all your feat slots and leaves you with a lot of awesome feats not taken. Static buffs to numbers don't give you new options.

For example, the build I was talking about:
Human Thug Fighter 20
1: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush
2: Dungeoncrasher
3: Knockback, Skill Focus: Intimidate (Zhentarim)
4: Resolute
6: Shock Trooper, Dungeoncrasher (improved)
8: Combat Reflexes
9: Imperious Command
10: Martial Study
12: Robilar's Gambit, Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades
14: Stand Still
15: Leap Attack
16: Overpowering Attack
18: Mage Slayer, Defensive Sweep

Absolutely nothing broken about the entire build, just your average solid Fighter 20 (and yes, it was done as a Fighter 20 intentionally just to test what comes out of it). Gets Knockback on the back of permanent Enlarge Person, btw. If it had more feats, next additions would be:
Pierce Magical Protection
Blind-Fight -> Pierce Magical Concealment
Dodge -> Combat Expertise -> Karmic Strike
Dodge -> Mobility -> Elusive Target
etc.


Any Archer Cleric falls under this too (you need proficiencies, Rapid Shot, etc.)

[Kelpstrand]

I think the idea of "cheese" is no longer relevant when the DM's allowing anthropomorphic bats as characters.

So your contention is that +2 to DCs and a few extra spells is more cheesy than an average damage per round of 700 untyped damage?

@ Everyone else:

No, the lots of damage comes from very few feats, most of which you can't take at level 1.

You have a metamagic storm and an Otugy Hole, find another storm, and I have no idea why you think EWP bastard sword is worth more than extra spells. Or alternatively +4 Str and Con if you are a Divine Gish, It's hard to tell.

One build without whatever:

A character playing a Wizard who does not use metacheese. I mean, apparently these characters don't exist in the parallel dimension this board occupies, but still.

[sofawall]

If you aren't using metamagic, what are you taking, as a wizard?

EWP is a prereq for a class. I managed to get 19 casting and 17 BAB, which isn't bad.

EDIT: Also, Metamagic Storm cannot be used for prereqs.

I don't know why you brought up me using Otyugh Hole and Metamagic storm, though, as it shows my feat starvation...

[PId6]

So your contention is that +2 to DCs and a few extra spells is more cheesy than an average damage per round of 700 untyped damage?
Are you saying now that extra +Wis isn't good for a druid? If you have to pick out a weird and obscure race from a 3.0 splatbook to prove that humans aren't optimal, then you're just proving my point. And where are you getting 700 damage from? Just calling every possible tactic that involve feats "cheesy" isn't helping your own point.

[Kelpstrand]

Are you saying now that extra +Wis isn't good for a druid? If you have to pick out a weird and obscure race from a 3.0 splatbook to prove that humans aren't optimal, then you're just proving my point. And where are you getting 700 damage from? Just calling every possible tactic that involve feats "cheesy" isn't helping your own point.

Um. You claimed that "the idea of "cheese" is no longer relevant when the DM's allowing anthropomorphic bats as characters."

That would imply that there is no game that might allow an anthropomorphic bat character, but not allow metamagic cheese. That's a strange assertion.

Secondly, you didn't say anthropomorphic bat's wisdom bonus is good for Druids. You said, anthropomorphic bats wisdom bonus is cheesy. I don't think taking a +wisdom race with a wisdom based caster is cheesy.

I think your assertion that it is so cheesy that all other cheese ceases to matter is wrong.

Nor am I using exclusively that race, I also mentioned every single other race with a bonus to a casting stat, because that is generally worth more than any given feat to a caster.

I'm not claiming that everything involving feats is cheesy, I mean, present me with a build in which the worst feat is worth more than +2 to a casting stat or +4 to str and con.

If that build involves arcane thesis and stacking metamagic effects, yes I'll criticize it, precisely because those are rare and cheesy builds that leads to 700 damage rounds. Which by the way are generated by meta abuse on Orbs. Not that meta abuse on enervation or avasculates aren't often quite bad themselves.

Same for DMM Persist Clerics. Rare and cheesy, and your last feat probably doesn't even grant you +2 hit, +3 damage, and +2HP per level.

For example all the listed Shocktrooper builds. I'd rather just have the basic shocktrooper +2 hit +12 damage +2HP per level and fort save (and will save) than whatever feat you have in your build at level 1 That is not Power Attack. Mostly because of the +hit and defenses, not really because of the damage, since you are already doing many times the HP of an average monster in damage each charge.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Let's make this simple:
Martial class, +2 str. That's +1 to-hit, +1 damage, +1 to certain combat maneuvers. You essentially just got Weapon Focus+a bit. That benefit, IMHO, is not worth a feat.
Rogue, +2 Dex. +1 to-hit, +1 to certain skills, +1 AC, +1 init. Yeah, not really worth it compared to TWF or Craven or similar most of the time, but some builds will take it.
Buffer caster, +2 to casting stat. Additional spell/day of certain levels. Not worth it compared to Reach/Chain/DMM or a similar chain.
Battlefield Control caster, +2 to casting stat. +1 to DCs, additional spell/day of certain levels. Unless feat-starved, which is a common occurance, go for the stats. It's better than the spell focus you had to pick up as a prerequisite for your PrC, but not as good as Cloudy Conjuration or Shape Spell.
SoD caster, +2 to casting stat. +1 to DCs. Take the stat boost, you need every +1 you can get.

All of this IMHO, of course, but should at least give us some ground to debate rather than talking about completely different situations.

[PId6]

Anthropomorphic bats are cheesy IMO because you have to dig through 3.0 sourcebooks just for the sake of finding a weird race with stats and abilities much better than most others. Same for dragonborn water orcs or any other race in which you have bend over backwards to get even a bit of believability in the story simply because you want better stats. But meh, cheesiness is highly subjective hence why I don't think that should be used as an argument.

And a bonus feat is crucial to so many non-"cheesy" characters, especially when you're actually leveling through the game rather than starting at level 20, or if you're looking to get into PrCs. Getting into Archmage requires two Spell Focuses and a Skill Focus. Getting into Io7V requires a Greater Spell Focus on top of that. MotAO requires Cooperative Spell and another metamagic feat. Try to get these as a sorcerer and you're even more feat-starved; you'd need Arcane Preparation for MotAO, you don't get bonus feats, you'll probably want a lot more feats like Rapid Metamagic, Quicken Spell, Split Ray, other metamagic feats, etc. And if you want some feats for flavor, like the heritage feats, you're completely out of luck.

And look at even relatively simple character builds like TWF swordsage. You'd almost always need TWF, Shadow Blade, Adaptive Style, Weapon Finesse, not to mention ITWF and GTWF later on. I've never made a swordsage in which I wasn't glad that I can get all of those feats as early as possible, since actually playing a TWF swordsage without any one of those four feats can be quite painful, and a small boost in stats doesn't alleviate that.

And then there's the dervish I built recently. Even just requirement-wise, you're spending Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, and Weapon Focus just to get in, and of course there's always the ever-necessary TWF and Weapon Finesse. You have to have flaws or bonus feats to even get in at level 6, and even then, you'll be damn useless before then unless you can squeeze in TWF and Weapon Finesse somehow. A +2 to Dex and Con won't be of much help there compared to actually getting all of those feats early on. And later there's so many other useful feats that you really won't ever regret taking human to make your early life that much less miserable.

Human is good. Yes, there are some better races for certain builds, but most of the time, just pick human and you're as good if not better. And something you haven't addressed is that humans have accessibility that none of the other "good" races have. I know of very very few DMs that would allow anyone to play anthropomorphic bat or dragonborn fire elf or what have you, whereas human is almost never disallowed. Most races are judged "weak" because humans are there to do it better. So if out of the list of "good" races human is considered low, it's only because human has eliminated all weaker races from that list.

[Kelpstrand]

Let's make this simple:
Martial class, +2 str. That's +1 to-hit, +1 damage, +1 to certain combat maneuvers. You essentially just got Weapon Focus+a bit. That benefit, IMHO, is not worth a feat.
Rogue, +2 Dex. +1 to-hit, +1 to certain skills, +1 AC, +1 init. Yeah, not really worth it compared to TWF or Craven or similar most of the time, but some builds will take it.

You are tremendously misrepresenting this area, since Orcs are Core and Strongheart Halflings and Whispher Gnomes are the standard, not that regular Halflings don't provide more than what you listed.


And a bonus feat is crucial to so many non-"cheesy" characters, especially when you're actually leveling through the game rather than starting at level 20, or if you're looking to get into PrCs. Getting into Archmage requires two Spell Focuses and a Skill Focus. Getting into Io7V requires a Greater Spell Focus on top of that. MotAO requires Cooperative Spell and another metamagic feat. Try to get these as a sorcerer and you're even more feat-starved; you'd need Arcane Preparation for MotAO, you don't get bonus feats, you'll probably want a lot more feats like Rapid Metamagic, Quicken Spell, Split Ray, other metamagic feats, etc. And if you want some feats for flavor, like the heritage feats, you're completely out of luck.

You just tried to qualify for 23 PrC levels for a Sorcerer. If you reduce that number to 15, you can reach it with a mere 5 pre req feats, and you get 2 bonus feats from the class. And one of those pre reqs is Split Ray.

[PId6]

You just tried to qualify for 23 PrC levels for a Sorcerer. If you reduce that number to 15, you can reach it with a mere 5 pre req feats, and you get 2 bonus feats from the class. And one of those pre reqs is Split Ray.
I didn't mean taking all of them; Archmage is almost always just dipped for 1-3 levels, while Io7V can be quite good even without taking all seven. Split Ray is hardly the only metamagic I'd want, either; Extend/Persist is always useful, Chain Spell needs no explanation, Sculpt Spell is nice for AOE, Heighten Spell can be helpful, even Empower Spell. Then there's the other feats that are very nice to have, including Extraordinary Spell Aim, Arcane Mastery, Craft Contingent Spell if that's allowed, Cloudy Conjuration, Metamagic School Focus, Residual Magic, Reserve Feats like Acid Splatter or Summon Elemental, and more, all of which I'd rather have than a simple +2 to casting stat.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

You are tremendously misrepresenting this area, since Orcs are Core and Strongheart Halflings and Whispher Gnomes are the standard, not that regular Halflings don't provide more than what you listed.Strongheart Halflings grant a bonus feat as well, which is why they're ranked as good as humans(better for casters/rogues, worse for meleers and Zillas).

The best races out there are Lesser Planetouched, Humans, Whisper Gnomes, Strongheart Halflings, Dragonborn anything, Water Orcs, Kobolds, anything with an Int bonus, Dwarves, Warforged, and a couple I'm missing. There are a massive number of races out there, being in the top 10 is huge. Especially since, say, Warforged or Kobolds are only good for a couple of tactics while Humans can be taken by any build and be a net positive over almost any other race.

[Kelpstrand]

Right, and what I'm saying is that statements about how humans are the best race because they are second best in a lot of things is just wrong, and that likewise, comments such as:

"Human's bonus feat is just invaluable to nearly any build, and the skill boost is always nice. Lesser Aasimar/Tiefling have nice stat gains but they're still not as generally useful as humans.

Best LA+0 races overall that I know of are human, Lesser Aasimar/Tiefling, Dwarf, Water Orc, Dragonborn Water Orc (or Dragonborn anything), Strongheart Halfing, Whisper Gnome, and maybe a few others I can't remember. And all of the races on this list besides humans are only good for certain types of characters; Lesser Aasimar for paladins and clerics, Lesser Tieflings for rogues and wizards, Dwarf/Water Orc/Dragonborn for melee characters, Strongheart Halfling/Whisper Gnome for rogue-types and maybe some casters. But none of these have the sheer breath of usefulness as humans have. With 99% of classes, you can't go wrong with human, and that's saying something."

or

"Especially since, say, Warforged or Kobolds are only good for a couple of tactics while Humans can be taken by any build and be a net positive over almost any other race."

Are just totally off target when talking about the generality of humans being worth something.

The point is that Anthropomorphic bat is a terrible race for Sorcerer, and yet, it is still a great race. It wouldn't become a better race overall if it didn't have a Cha penalty but instead had some comparative disadvantage.

When you are making a character, your choices for race with that Barbarian are not "Warforged, Human, Dragonborn Water Orc, Gray Elf, Anthro Bat, Kobold." They are "Warforged, Dragonborn Water Orc, Human."

You have to measure what the human is competing at. And if a race is so much better than every other that it is always always always the correct build choice for Wizards or Druids or Barbarians, and is never the choice for the other two, then it gets 1/3rd of all total points. And if a specialized race beats human for the other two, then Human gets zero points. Sucks to be human.

Now that's not the case, human doesn't always lose, but it loses a lot. A lot a lot. And so if the fact of the matter is you take 10 characters and 9 of them are better off not being human, then human isn't good because it was second or third choice for 9 out of ten builds. It gets to be in the top ten because it was number one for one of those builds, just like Anthrobat, Dragonborn Water Orc, Warforged, Dragonborn Fire Elf, and Whisper Gnome.

[ericgrau]

Well, then you'd also have to subtract the same number from the monster's CR. And then treasure too. It may actually easier to continue to track the LA, at least for the DM. If the DM tracks xp as well, then players with equal LA don't have to worry about it anymore.