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View Full Version : [4e] Brainstorming ways to handle "Feat Fixes"



Gralamin
2009-08-21, 07:15 PM
Quite a few feats people view as "Feat Fixes". I've been making a list of variants I've seen to handle them.

List Of Feat Fixes

Expertise Feats

Focused Expertise
Implement Expertise
Weapon Expertise
Defense Feats

Epic Fort
Epic Ref
Epic Will
Great Fort
Iron Will
Lightning Ref
Paragon Defenses
Robust Defenses

Expertise Related Variants
There are a number of ways of dealing with the Expertise Feats in games, each giving a different level of power. The following list will be in order of increasing power.

Ban them altogether
Allow them to be taken once in heroic giving only a +1 bonus
Allow them to be taken once per tier, each giving a +1 bonus that stacks with one another.
Follow the normal rules
Allow players to choose any one of the three feats as a bonus feat at level 1.
All of the Following are at about the same amount:

Remove the Feats, but give a +1 untyped bonus to hit at level 5, 15, and 25.
Remove the Feats, and create masterwork weapons/implements that would give the bonus to hit.
Give the players the feats for free for all weapons/implements.
Choose of the immediately above, but also allow the feat to be taken for a +1 bonus.

Defense Related Variants
There are also a number of ways of dealing with the Defense feats in games. The Following is a listing of different variants, in order of increasing power.

Ban them all together
Follow Normal rules
The Following are equivalent

Give Robust and Paragon Defenses for free, ban epic Fort, Ref, and Will.
Create Masterwork Neck Slot items that give the bonuses of Paragon and Robust Defenses. Ban the feats.
The Following are also equivalent

Give Robust and Paragon Defenses for free, as well as one of Epic Fort, Ref, or Will (And the corresponding paragon feat in paragon). Do not let players take any others.
Create Masterwork Neck Slot items that give the bonuses of Paragon and Robust Defenses, and certain types that give The Epic Fort, Ref, or Will bonuses/Great Fort, Iron Will, and Lightning Ref bonuses.
Give All of them for Free (Staggering when you get them)
Give all of them for free, and allow players to take Robust and Paragon defenses for a bonus to defenses.

Anything that seems to be missing or misplaced?

Tehnar
2009-08-21, 07:56 PM
I get what you are doing, I really do. However I think WotC screwed up their math so bad that its beyond the simple help of incorporating a +1/2/3... bonus on defences or hit.


From my experience, in 4e there are 2 types of combat encounters:

1) The appropriate level one (monsters of around party level or lower): The PCs don't have a chance to lose unless they jump of cliffs or stab themselves. Simply spamming at wills will win this encounter. Sure you might lose some healing surges but even the most unoptimized parties will walk over those with ease. In fact many players will think of this as a joke/test encounter.

2) The hard ones (with enemies significantly higher level then your party level): Here the monsters will hit you. It doesn't matter what feats/armor/defenses you have they will hit you. Most of your damage will come from effect that don't require to hit, such as flaming sphere. Even if you optimize to hit you will hit less then 40% of the time, and if you optimize defenses you will get hit more then 70% of the time. Passive damage and resistances play a major role in these encounters.


So what I am trying to say is: For easy encounters any of your changes will make them even easier, while for tougher ones they wont make much of a difference.

Not to sound as a 4e hater, I like it as much as the next man, but to make encounters not fall into one of those two groups above takes a lot of work and experience, one that I am not familiar with yet.

Edit (to say something constructive): I think a better way would be to patch through the monster/encounter creation process. Ok, I played only through heroic and a smattering of paragon, but I feel the lack of monsters that say to players Shut TF up and Sit TF down while not being overgods.

Aron Times
2009-08-21, 08:05 PM
I choose to follow the RAW in both cases. Though all characters want to take them, when to actually take them is a lot trickier. Some CharOp builds leave the Expertise feats until the paragon tier because there's not enough space in the heroic tier for them, with all the splatbooks providing awesome heroic tier support.

Then again, I favor high-powered games where my players take the effort to optimize, so your mileage may vary.

Gralamin
2009-08-21, 08:09 PM
I get what you are doing, I really do. However I think WotC screwed up their math so bad that its beyond the simple help of incorporating a +1/2/3... bonus on defences or hit.


From my experience, in 4e there are 2 types of combat encounters:

1) The appropriate level one (monsters of around party level or lower): The PCs don't have a chance to lose unless they jump of cliffs or stab themselves. Simply spamming at wills will win this encounter. Sure you might lose some healing surges but even the most unoptimized parties will walk over those with ease. In fact many players will think of this as a joke/test encounter.

2) The hard ones (with enemies significantly higher level then your party level): Here the monsters will hit you. It doesn't matter what feats/armor/defenses you have they will hit you. Most of your damage will come from effect that don't require to hit, such as flaming sphere. Even if you optimize to hit you will hit less then 40% of the time, and if you optimize defenses you will get hit more then 70% of the time. Passive damage and resistances play a major role in these encounters.


So what I am trying to say is: For easy encounters any of your changes will make them even easier, while for tougher ones they wont make much of a difference.

Not to sound as a 4e hater, I like it as much as the next man, but to make encounters not fall into one of those two groups above takes a lot of work and experience, one that I am not familiar with yet.

Edit (to say something constructive): I think a better way would be to patch through the monster/encounter creation process. Ok, I played only through heroic and a smattering of paragon, but I feel the lack of monsters that say to players Shut TF up and Sit TF down while not being overgods.

You seem to be missing the point.

The goal is not whether or not these feats are fixes, nor is it trying to fix the math of the game. The goal is to compile a list of possible variants for people to use if they are so inclined, with at least some indication of the strength behind them.

Tehnar
2009-08-21, 08:22 PM
Yeah, sorry. I think your list is comprehensive and I can't think of anything to add to it, except to comment that the underlying reason for using one of the fixes (or none it all) is actually pretty deep, and I am not sure if it is easily fixed. This of course reflects only my opinion and experience.