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DeadEnded
2009-08-21, 07:19 PM
Hi everyone, I usually lurk but had a breakthrough of inspiration after reading Kaja and Phil Foglio's 'Girl Genius' comic (link at the end). I thought I'd drop it in here and see what everyone thinks of it. This is by no means an attempt at copyright infringement, just an homage to the greatness that is their work.

Couple of points. My gaming group is totally enamored of Pathfinder, so this class will be using their system. The class is based on the 'gas light' time period about the mid 1800's. Though I think it would still be viable for a traditional fantasy game.

Clockworker
A clockworker is a mad genius whose ability with machines is unparalleled. They are the engineers of countless clockwork machines and inventions. Most would rather while away the hours fiddling with their machines, but some prefer the real world to test the durability and usefulness of their creations.

Alignment: Any
HD 1d8

{table=head]level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|AC Dodge Bonus
1|0|0|2|2|Clockwork Minion (Medium), Program, Repair, Tinker|0
2|1|0|3|3|Breakthrough|0
3|2|1|3|3|Caught off Guard|0
4|3|1|4|4|Breakthrough, Program|1
5|3|1|4|4||1
6|4|2|5|5|Breakthrough, Clockwork Minion (+/- 1 size)|1
7|5|2|5|5|Clockwork Minion (Fast Healing 3), Program, Epiphany, Strange Contraption|1
8|6/1|2|6|6|Breakthrough|2
9|6/1|3|6|6|Evasion|2
10|7/2|3|7|7|Breakthrough, Program|2
11|8/3|3|7|7|Epiphany|2
12|9/4|4|8|8|Breakthrough, Clockwork Minion (+/- 1 size)|3
13|9/4|4|8|8|Program, Salvage|3
14|10/5|4|9|9|Breakthrough|3
15|11/6/1|5|9|9||3
16|12/7/2|5|10|10|Breakthrough, Epiphany, Program|4
17|12/7/2|5|10|10|Command Construct|4
18|13/8/3|6|11|11|Breakthrough, Clockwork Minion (+/- 1 size)|4
19|14/9/4|6|11|11|Awaken Construct, Program|4
20|15/10/5|6|12|12|Breakthrough|5[/table]

Class Skills
Appraise(int), Climb(str), Craft(int), Disable Device(dex), Escape Artist(dex), Fly(dex), Knowledge(all)(int), Perception(wis), Profession(wis), Ride(dex), Swim(str)
Skill Points: Int Mod + 4

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Clockworkers are proficient with all simple weapons, all crossbows (including the hand crossbow), rapier and short sword. Clockworkers are proficient with light and medium armor but not with shields.

AC Dodge Bonus Dodging flying bits of machinery, globs of flaming goo, and the occasional construct run amok gives you and your minion and Tinker an innate ability to get the hell out of the way. When in no armor, light or medium armor they add this dodge bonus to their AC.

Clockwork Minion
You create a humanoid clockwork minion that is under your control; this minion is absolutely loyal and follows your orders just as any other construct. Initially this construct is medium but as you gain levels and your ability to create improves so does your construct.
You create and upgrade this construct for free barring any additional costs for breakthroughs you may have that can apply to the clockwork minion.

Every level after the first adds +1d10+1 HD to your minion
Every even level you apply the following bonuses
+1 Natural Armor
+1 To Strength and Dexterity
Base Attack Bonus as per Construct in MM (3/4)
Construct traits (including bonus HP by size) as per MM

The minion is unable to use any magic items other than weapons. This is due to its unintelligent nature and its inability to understand what it is doing.

A clockwork minion is humanoid in shape and only has two arms/hands capable of utilizing any sort of weapon if you have the breakthrough to attach them. This can be one two-handed melee or ranged weapon, or any combination of two one-handed melee or ranged weapons.

Choose when you create your minion or upgrade it whether it has a slam or claw attack. Damage is the same for either type. A slam does bludgeoning damage while a claw does slashing damage.

A clockwork minion submerged for 2d4 minutes shuts down until it dries out. At that point the minion is fully functional again.

At 6th level you may begin improving your clockwork minion's size by reinforcing or miniaturizing its structure. This allows you to shift the minions size between Small and Large at 6th level. At 12th level you gain another place allowing you to shift it between Tiny and Huge. And finally at 18th level you may shift your minion between Diminutive and Gargantuan. This takes 12 hours of work to complete all the modifications. Slam shifts one die type per size category in either direction. You do not have to increase or decrease the minion's size if you do not want to, you have the option. You may shift your minions size at any time by taking 12 hours to make the modifications. It only take 12 hours, even if shifting from Gargantuan to Diminutive.


Increased Size Bonuses (replaces MM size): +4 Str; -2 Dex; -1 Attack/AC
Decreased Size Bonuses (replaces MM size): -2 Str; +4 Dex; +1 Attack/AC
Weight by size: Diminutive 10lbs, Tiny 35lbs, Small 75lbs, Medium 200lbs, Large 400lbs, Huge 800lbs, Gargantuan 1500lbs

Also at 6th level you also choose one special ability from the list below when you take the 12 hours to upgrade. Your Minion gains 1 special ability per size category difference from medium I.E.: 1 @ 6, 2 @ 12, 3 @ 18. You may change this special ability when you change the minions size or by taking 12 hours of repair time to change it. Your minion does not need to increase or decrease size to gain this special ability, you only need to spend the 12 hours upgrading it.

Special Ability List:

* Blindsense 30'
* Improved Grab: (melee weapon or slam)
* Improved Sunder: as per feat
* Frightful Presence: on attack; 20' (DC 10 +1/2 HD +2)
* Pounce: as per MM
* Powerful Charge: (x2 damage on slam or melee weapon charge damage)
* Rake: as per MM
* Roar: 4 times per day once every 1d4 rounds; 60' radius Will DC (10 +1/2 HD +2) or Dazed for 1 round. Creatures allied with the clockwork minion are unaffected as are deaf creatures. This ability does not work if the minion is silenced.
* Trample: as per MM

At level 7, you impart a self-repairing system to your Minion, this gives it the extraordinary ability: fast healing 3.

You may create more Clockwork Golems, but these cost time and money as per the Clockwork Soldier Monster, and the "Craft Construct" feat in the Monster Manual. You are considered to have this feat, but you still are required to have the prerequisite "craft magic arms and armor" and "craft wondrous item" feats. (see spoiler below)

Clockwork Minion level 1 Clockworker:
CR 1 Medium Construct
HD 1d10+21 (26hp average)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30'
AC: 10 (10)
Base Attack: +0
Attack: 0
Full Attack:Slam +0 (1d6)
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
Special Attacks: none
Special Qualities: Construct Traits, Low-light Vision, Darkvision 60'
Saves: F+0; R+0; W+0
Abilities: Str 10 Dex 10 Con — Int — Wis 10 Cha 10
Skills: none
Feats: none
Environment: Non-Aquatic
+2 Racial Bonus applied 1 time to any non-intelligence skills from the 'Program' ability
Weighs 200lbs.

Example 10th and 20th level clockworker Minions
{table]Sample 10th level Clockwork Minion||
|smaller|Larger
|CR 7 Small Construct|CR 7 Large Construct
HD| 10d10+20 | 10d10+40
Initiative| +4 | +1
Speed| 30' | 30'
AC|22 (10 +4 Dex +1 Size +2 Dodge +5 Natural) | 17 (10 +1 Dex -1 Size +2 Dodge +5 Natural)
Base Attack| +7 | +7
Attack| Rifle +11 (1d8) | Large Great Sword +11 (3d6+6)
Full Attack| Small Great Sword +8/3 (1d10-1); Rifle +11/6 (1d8) |Large Great Sword +11/6 (3d6+6); Rifle +8/3 (2d8)
Space/Reach| 5'/5' |10'/10'
Special Attacks| Frightful Presence (DC 17) | Powerful Charge
Special Qualities| Construct Traits, Low-light Vision, Darkvision 60', Fast Healing 3 | Same as Small
Saves| F+3; R+5; W+3 | F+3 R+4 W+3
Abilities| Str 13 Dex 19 Con — Int — Wis 10 Cha 10 | Str 19 Dex 13 Con — Int — Wis 10 Cha 10
Skills| none | none
Feats| none | none
Environment| Non-Aquatic | Non-Aquatic
|+2 Racial Bonus applied 4 times to any non-intelligence skill from the 'Program' ability |Same as Small
~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~
Sample 20th level Clockwork Minion
|smaller|larger
CR|15 Diminutive Construct|15 Gargantuan Construct
HD|20d10+20|20d10+60
Initiative|+11|+2
Speed|30'|30'
AC|39 (10 +11 Dex +3 Size +5 Dodge +10 Natural) |24 (10 +2 Dex -3 Size +5 Dodge +10 Natural)
Base Attack| +15
Attack|Diminutive E-Rifle 23 (3d8)|(Gargantuan Great Sword 23 (15-3+11)
Full Attack|Diminutive Great Sword 14/9/4 (1d4+3); E-Rifle 23 (3d8); Slam x2 14 (1d2+2)|Gargantuan Great Sword: 25/19/13 (5d6+16), E-Rifle: 14 (3d8), Slam x 2: 25 (2d8+11)
Space/Reach|5'/5'|15'/15'
Special Attacks|Frightful Presence (DC 22), Roar|Powerful Charge, Trample, Improved Grab
Special Qualities|Construct Traits, Low-light Vision, Darkvision 60', Fast Healing 3, Blindsense 30', |Same as Diminutive
Saves|F+7 R+18 W+7|F+7; R+9; W+7
Abilities|Str 14 Dex 32 Con — Int — Wis 10 Cha 10|Str 32 Dex 14 Con — Int — Wis 10 Cha 10
Skills|none|none
Feats|none|none
Environment|Non-Aquatic|Non-Aquatic
|+2 Racial Bonus applied 7 time to any non-intelligence skills from the 'Program' ability|Same as Diminutive[/table]

Program
At first level you have built and programmed your constructs to be more capable than the average unintelligent golem. What this means is your Minion and Tinker receive a +2 Racial bonus on any skill they would be eligible to put ranks in. At levels 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, and 19 you may choose another skill to upgrade with a +2 racial bonus. You may choose the same skill you chose at a previous level and the bonus increases by +2.

Repair
You can repair any construct of 1 HP per minute, provided you have the correct tools. This requires a Craft: Construct check DC = to the damage. If a construct is at 0 HP double the time it takes to repair. A construct with 15 hp is dealt 10 damage, the DC is 10, and takes 10 minutes to repair. A construct with 15 hp is dealt 15 hp reducing it to 0 hp the DC is 15 and takes 30 minutes to repair. This costs 2g per point of damage repaired in materials and parts.

Breakthrough
At every even level your ability to create interesting and fantastic devices takes a turn for the weird. You gain a breakthrough that can be applied to your Clockwork Minion or used to create a device for yourself. Each Breakthrough can be taken only once unless noted in the breakthrough. You are assumed to have been tinkering with the breakthrough on your downtime similar to how a wizard researches his two spells per level, you need not make any skill checks only pay the gold piece cost, if any, to receive the breakthrough the first time it is taken.

EX: You reach 4th level and take the breakthrough Firearm(rifle) you do not need to 'make' the weapon, you are considered to have been tinkering with it up to this point. You just 'pay' the cost of 500gp and have your new weapon and one box of ammunition (20 bullets).
See Spoiler below for the list of all breakthroughs.

Caught Off Guard
The Clockworker can use anything they find around their shop or at hand as a weapon, they get the 'caught off guard' feat for free without needing to meet any of the prerequisites.

Epiphany
A Clockworker gains an understanding of the physics of the world at 7th level and may chose any one of the Item Creation Feats, except scroll, staff or wand, that he is eligible for treating his clockworker class level as his caster level.
He may do this again at 11th level and again at 16th level.

Strange Contraption(ex):
A Clockworker of 7th level or higher can use his knowledge of engineering principles to create magic items, even if he does not know the spells required to make an item (although he must know the appropriate item creation feat). He can substitute a Knowledge (Engineering) check in place of a required spell he doesn't know or can't cast. Craft (Alchemy) in the case of potions. If the check succeeds, the Clockworker can create the item as if he had cast the required spell.

Evasion
Lab work is dangerous. Flying globs of acidic goo and flaming machine parts taught you to quickly get out of the way. Now you've learned to put that into practice in the real world as well. You gain the Evasion ability.

Salvage
You can salvage broken Golems and Clockworks for parts for your own inventions. You find materials equal to 1/4 the market cost of the golem or clockwork that are salvageable. These parts can go toward any mechanism you know how to create.

Command Constructs
You have spent a career commanding mindless constructs to do your bidding. You've gained the ability Command Constructs as if the construct's creator had ordered the construct to obey the commands of another person. This ability only works if the actual creator is not within 100 feet of the construct. The construct's actual creator can always resume control over the construct. This ability does not allow the clockworker to control berserk constructs. A clockworker can command up to 1 HD/level of constructs, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart. This is a supernatural ability not an extraordinary one.

Awaken Construct
You may use the Awaken Construct spell once per week without the need for the listed material component: a sentient creatures brain. You pay all other costs as normal. Note = a Clockwork Minion that is awakened no longer servers as your minion, though if you take leadership it can serve as your Cohort if you are eligible to take it as one. (level restrictions etc. as per the leadership feat.)

Tinker
You create a Diminutive Construct helper, similar to a Homunculus but clockwork in nature. This construct cannot attack or be modified with weapons, it cannot take any offensive actions; but it can be modified with any other type of breakthrough. It advances similar to a familiar with several differences, see the chart below.

Tinker Stat block:
CR 1/2 Diminutive Construct
Hit Die: 1d10 (5 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft.
Armor Class: 18 (10 + 8 Size)
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/—
Attack: —
Full Attack: —
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: None
Special Qualities: Construct traits, Darkvision 60 ft., Low-light vision
Saves: Fort + 0, Ref +0, Will +0
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 11, Con —, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 11
Skills: See Below
Feats: See Below
Environment: Any Non-Aquatic
Due to their size, Tinkers also have a +12 size bonus to Stealth checks.
Weight: 10lbs

Tinker Improvements by Clockworker's Level:
HD - Use the above stat block.
HP - Rolled as normal
Saving Throws - Use either the Base save for Tinker, or if with the Clockworker; in the same square; use the Clockworker’s instead.
Skills - Chosen by the Clockworker when built. All Craft skills, Disable Device, Knowledge (Engineering), and Stealth are considered 'class' skills.
Skill Points: 2+Int Mod per HD
Feats - Chosen by the Clockworker, can only be non-combat feats such as: Skill Focus, Athletic, or Deft Hands
Alertness - The Tinker gives it's master the Alertness feat (same as familiar)
Perfect Tool - Your Tinker provides you with a +2 Circumstance Bonus on Craft and Disable Device Checks.
Bonus Hit Dice - At 1st, 7th, 13th, and 17th level the Tinker gains another HD along with the skill points and feats for gaining that hit die.
Speak with Master - The Tinker can speak with it's master (same as familiar)
Command Minion - Your Tinker may command your minion as though it were speaking with your voice. You will always have the final word and the Tinker can never turn your minion against you.

{table=head]Level|Natural Armor|Int|Special
1-2|+1|10|Alertness,Perfect Tool, Improved Evasion, +1HD
3-4|+2|11|---
5-6|+3|11|Speak with Master
7-8|+4|12|+1HD
9-10|+5|12|---
11-12|+6|13|Command Minion
13-14|+7|13|+1HD
15-16|+8|14|---
17-18|+9|14|+1HD
19-20|+10|15|---[/table]


Breakthroughs
Better Bomb- You've experimented with the chemicals and casings for your bombs and have come up with a better mixture. They are still small but now they pack a bigger whollop. Increase the die size of your "Explosive" and "Big Bang" Breakthroughs by one. d4 becomes d6, d8 becomes 2d6. You must have the "Explosive" breakthrough and Craft: Alchemy with 1 rank to take this breakthrough.

Better "Bullet"- You've figured out how to fire a larger bullet or focused beam without losing energy to drag or leakage thereby increasing the damage you can do with your firearms. Increase the die type of the firearms or energy weapon you create by one type: 1d10 to 2d6 and 1d12 to 2d8 etc. This applies to the ammunition you create for other people as well. You do not need to apply this breakthrough to the ammunition you create. Cost to create "Better Bullets" for a firearm is 4g per 20. Market cost 12g per 20 and weigh 1/2 Lb. You must have one of the firearm breakthroughs and Craft Weapons with 1 rank to take this breakthrough.

Blades- You can add a bladed weapon to your clockwork minion. This weapon is equivalent to one of the swords or axe's listed under equipment in the PHB. You pay for this weapon just as you would a normal sword or axe of it's type.

Bonus Feat- You may take any one Combat or Skill related feat you qualify for instead of gaining a breakthrough. This breakthrough can be taken multiple times.

Built In Trinket- You have constructed a special casing within your construct allowing you to place one ring, or wondrous magic item within. The energies running through the construct activate this item and the construct it is considered to be wearing it. You must order your minion to activate it if it needs to be activated to gain a benefit, it can not do so on its own. This breakthrough requires clockworker level 7 or greater.

Elemental Cannon- You've designed and built a weapon that harnesses one of the 4 classical elements. The cost to build this weapon is 500gp and it weighs 7lbs. This weapon fires as a standard action and takes 4 rounds to recharge before firing again. You may choose this Breakthrough more than once, each time picking a different element and costing 250gp to add to the Cannon.


Acid - This weapon deals 1d6 Acid damage per 2 class levels in a line 5' wide and 60' long. Reflex Save for half damage DC 10 + ½ Class level + Dexterity Mod.

Flame - The weapon deals 1d6 fire damage per two levels to a 30' cone. Reflex save for half damage DC = 10 + ½ Class level + Dexterity Modifier.

Cold - This weapon fires a ray of energy at your target (ranged touch). The ray deals 1d4 per 2 class levels of damage and the target must make a fortitude save DC = 10 + ½ Class level + Intelligent Modifier, or be Held for 1d4 rounds as though a Hold (person/monster/undead/etc.) was used on it. Creatures Immune to cold are immune to this weapon.

Electricity - This weapon deals 1d6 electricity damage per 2 class levels in a line 5' wide and 60' long. Reflex Save for half damage DC 10 + ½ Class level + Dexterity Mod.

Energy Resistant- You have learned to use a variety of other materials in the construction of your clockwork minion that give the minion energy resistance 5 to one type of energy chosen when you take this breakthrough. This breakthrough may be taken multiple times, each time taking a new type of energy.

Explosive- You can create a small explosive on the fly with bits from your equipment and things lying around you, you can make one per 2 class levels every morning. These explosives are unstable and become inert after 1 day. As a standard action you can throw an explosive. Explosive - Range Increment 10' Damage 1d4 per 2 class levels to 5' radius; Reflex for half DC: 10 + ½ Class level + Dex Mod, weighs 1lb. Due to the nature of this weapon, only your or your minion are capable of wielding it with any efficacy. Hell you doubt anyone could even find the 'on' switch.

Extend- Your clockwork minion has extendable arms. This gives your minion a +5' reach.

Extra Width- Your clockwork minion is wide for it's size. It has the 'powerful build' characteristic and is considered one size category larger than it's actual size.

Firearm (Pistol)- You've figured out how to create a firearm. This weapon costs you 250gp each and can be added to your Clockwork Minion for the same cost. One handed; Range Increment 50'; Damage 1d10; Crit x3; Piercing, this masterwork weapon weighs 3lbs. Note - Taking this breakthrough automatically adds Firearm (Pistol) to your Weapon Proficiency list. This weapon is a single shot and is a standard action to reload. Cost and craft(weapon smith) DC to create bullets is 15 and weigh 1/2 Lb. The DC for creating a Firearm(pistol) is 15.

Firearm (Rifle)- You've figured out how to create a firearm. This weapon costs you 500gp each and can be added to your Clockwork Minion for the same cost. Two Handed; Range Increment 100'; Damage 1d12; Crit x3; Piercing, this masterwork weapon weighs 10lbs. Note - Taking this breakthrough automatically adds Firearm (Rifle) to your Weapon Proficiency list. This weapon is a single shot and is a standard action to reload. Cost to craft (weapon smith) DC to create bullets is 15 and weigh 1/2 Lb. The DC for creating a Firearm(rifle) is 15.

Flying Harness- You can create a rotary or winged flying harness for you and/or your clockwork minion. This pack provides a speed of 30' flying with average maneuverability with the ability to hover. As this is a clockwork device it does run down. You or your minion are able to fly for 10 minutes / class level in any grouping of minutes. This pack costs 2000gp. Prerequisite 7th level. Due to the nature of this piece of equipment, only your or your minion are capable of using it with any efficacy. Hell you doubt anyone could even find the 'on' switch.

Skill Mastery- You've become so certain in the use of certain skills that you can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.
When you take this breakthrough you choose a number of skills equal to 3+ your Intelligence Modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, you may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent you from doing so. You make take this breakthrough multiple times, each time you choose new skills that it applies to.

Stable Structure- You've learned to create incredibly sturdy Clockworks, your minion receives a +4 bonus on bull rush and trip attempts while standing on the ground.

Submersible- Your Clockworks are designed to work underwater. You've added planes and propellers to allow it to move better under water. Your Clockwork Minion gains a swim speed of 30' and no longer shuts down if submerged.

Trapfinding- Your knowledge of mechanical workings allows you to find traps as a Rogue. Unfortunately you're not quite as good as a Rogue, they make their living at it you do not, your perception roll is at a -4 penalty.

Big Bang- You've built small bombs before, but now you've got the hang of it. You can create a small explosive every morning with bits from your equipment and things lying around you. You can create one explosive per two class levels you have every morning. These explosives are unstable and become inert after 1 day. As a standard action you can throw an explosive. Explosive - Range Increment 10' Damage 1d8 per 2 class levels to 10' radius. Reflex for half DC: 10 + ½ Class level + Dex Mod, weighs 1lb. You must have the Explosive Breakthrough and be 10th level to take this Advanced Breakthrough.

Alloyed Chassis- Through study, trial and error, and a good bit of luck you've found an alloy to give your minion damage reduction 2/adamantine +2/adamantine for every 3 class levels you possess.

Burrowing- Your minion's arms are mounted with a pair of drills this give the minion a burrowing speed of 30'. It also increases the slam attack of the minion by one die type and changes the damage from bashing to piercing. If your Minion is mounted with other hand weapons you must either remove the weapons or have the Extra Appendages: Arms Breakthrough. This breakthrough MUST be mounted on the primary arms. You must be 10th level to take this breakthrough.

Combat Model- You've developed a variety of program methods to make your Minion a better combatant. You may give your Minion any feat it would be eligible for. This breakthrough can be taken more than once. You must be 10th level to take this breakthrough.

Energy Weapon (Pistol)- You've learned to create a sustainable power source for an energy pistol for you or your clockwork minion. This weapon costs 700gp to create for either of you. This weapon has a Range Increment of 75’; Damage 3d6; Crit x3; is not magic and works in an anti-magic zone. Damage for this weapon does NOT change by size of the weapon. This weapon uses the 'pistol' weapon proficiency to fire. You must have the Firearm (pistol) breakthrough and be 10th level to take this Breakthrough.

Energy Weapon (Rifle)- You've learned to create a sustainable power source for an energy rifle for you or your clockwork minion. This weapon costs 850gp to create for either of you. This weapon has a range increment of 175’; damage 3d8; Crit x3; is not magic and works in an anti-magic zone. Damage for this weapon does NOT change by size of the weapon. This weapon uses the 'rifle' weapon proficiency to fire. You must have the Firearm (Rifle) breakthrough and be 10th level to take this Breakthrough.

Extra Appendages- You've designed a pair of extra appendages for your minion. These appendages are attached just under the arms of your minion. You may choose either a pair of arms or a pair of tentacles (not one of each) to add to your minion. Your minion gains the multiattack feat for free.


Arms are smaller than the original pair, they may only use one handed weapons or crossbows/firearms and do 1/2 strength damage.
Tentacles can not use weapons at all but deal 1d6 slam damage and do full strength damage, crit x2.
You must be 10th level to take this breakthrough.

Grenade Launcher- You've developed a launcher for your explosives. This launcher fires one of your preloaded Explosives or Big Bangs once per round as one of your attacks. If you have 3 attacks this can be one of them, but not all of them. The range increment is 30’; Damage is either the explosive or big bang damage depending on what you have loaded into your launcher. Reflex DC is 15 + Class level + Dexterity Mod (it's more accurate than throwing). Note = this weapon can be built on its own or attached to a rifle length firearm. You must have the Explosive Breakthrough to take this Advanced Breakthrough. This costs 1000g to build or add to a rifle. Your entire load of explosives and big bangs is loaded in the morning unless you specify otherwise. Loading the Launcher takes 5 minutes no matter how many grenades you load. You must be 10th level to take this breakthrough.

Rapid Fire- You've come up with a way to make your firearms pistol and rifle capable of firing quicker. Taking this Advanced Breakthrough allows firearms you create to be used once per attack in a full attack action up to 6 times. I is a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity to reload a weapon with six bullets. It costs 100g to modify or build a weapon with this breakthrough and you must have taken one of the firearms breakthroughs and 1 rank in Craft(weapons) to take this breakthrough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolver
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Revolver_Rifle

Spider legs/Treads- Your minion is modified to have spider legs or treads instead of humanoid legs, it looks similar to a centaur or dryder. The minions base speed changes to 50' and can be used as a mount, even if the rider is the same size. You must be 6th level to take this breakthrough.

Clockwork Soldier
Clockwork Soldiers fill the ranks of those countries that have a sizable base of Clockworkers to build them. They follow the orders of their commander as best they can and have proven to be devastating front line fighters for the armies that can afford to have them built.

Clockwork Soldier
Medium Construct (clockwork)
Hit Dice 5d10+20HD (47HP)
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Initiative:+1
Armor Class 15; touch 11; flat-footed 14 (10 +1 dex +4 natural)
Base Attack +3
Attack Standard Slam +8 (1d6+5)
Full-Attack Slam(x2) +8 (1d6+5)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks: None Standard
Special Qualities: Construct Traits, Darkvision 60', low-light vision, Group Command
Saves Fort +1 Ref +2 Will +1
Abilities Str 20, Dex 12, Con X, Int X, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills: none
Feats: none
Environment: Non-Aquatic
Organization: Platoon (20)
Challenge Rating 5
Treasure: none
Alignment: True Neutral
Advancement: See Below

Combat
Group Commanded - A platoon of Clockwork Soldiers can be commanded by a leader with a Command Signet (see below). They all follow the same orders given by the commander unless singled out usually by a designation number.

Creation - Metal gears, plates and parts weighing about 300 lbs. and costing 1/3 the total cost. Creation is a DC 18 Craft(Construct) check. Clockworker/Caster level 8th; Magic Users need these spells/skills: Shocking Grasp, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Knowledge(Engineering) 8 ranks.
Market Cost 20,000; Cost to create 10,000

Any creator, clockworker or magic user, can add Hit Dice to the construct. This adds to the market cost of the Clockwork Soldier. Hit Dice cost 2500gp each to 15 total HD; then 5000gp each to add to 25 total HD; then 7500gp each to 35 total HD.

Command Signet - This Signet; a plate depicting the platoons insignia with a loop of chain; takes the amulet slot on the body. It allows the wearer to command 100HD of Clockwork Soldiers that are attuned to the signet and within 100 feet as the creator of the Clockwork Soldier. Magic Users need this spell: Command. Market Cost 20,000; Cost to create 10,000.

Attuning a Clockwork Soldier to the signet takes one hour and 50gp of parts added to the Soldier. Clockwork Soldiers attuned to a Command Signet consider the wearer of the signet as their creator. A clockwork soldier does not need to be attuned to a signet, in this case treat as a normal golem and master.

Clockworkers may add any of their breakthroughs that are applicable to a clockwork minion to a clockwork soldier. They incur additional costs when building these into the new Clockwork Soldier.

For any breakthrough the base market cost to add is 5000gp
+2000gp for breakthroughs with a level prerequisite 9 or lower.
+4000gp for breakthroughs with a level prerequisite 10 or more.
+gold piece costs required by the breakthrough itself.

EX1: to add a flying harness (7th level prereq. and 2000gp) to a Clockwork Soldier would add 9000gp to the market cost.
EX2: to add burrowing (10th level prereq.) would also cost 9000gp.
EX3: to add a firearm(Rifle) (No level prereq. 1000gp market for Rifle) would be 8000gp.

A Clockworker can add or remove size to a Clockwork Soldier as long as he is capable of increasing or decreasing the size to his minion. This adds to the market cost of the Soldier as shown in the table:
{table=head]Size Shift|Cost|Weight
diminutive to tiny|15,000gp|as per minion
tiny to small|10,000gp|as per minion
medium to small|5000gp|as per minion
medium to large|5000gp|as per minion
large to huge|10,000gp|as per minion
huge to Gargantuan|15,000gp|as per minion[/table]

A Clockworker can add Strength or Dexterity to the Soldier up to the amount his minion is increased by. It adds 3000gp to the market cost of the minion for each point added.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I want to thank Adam, Bidgood, Rodger, Debihuman, Mangles and Stas for all their help with this.

Ok that's what I have so far. I'm looking for a few more breakthroughs for both normal and advanced and critiques on the class itself.
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php

The Witch-King
2009-08-21, 07:25 PM
I've been interested in this sort of character concept for a long time now. The problem I keep running into is this: what stops a character like this from mass producing the items he designs? A wizard might have only one familiar for some mystic reason but if an engineer can build one clockwork automaton, why not two? And if they're expensive, why not build some and sell them to make money to build more for yourself?

And while you want a class like this to make cool weapons for their own use just like you see in Girl Genius--why do characters like this never seem to build an uber blaster rifle and say "Here Bob--go kick butt." I mean, what stops you from building super blasters and giving them to everyone in the party? And steam punk powered armor only makes the whole thing worse. Why are you building just one of those suits? "We're adventurers! We come back with chests full of gems and lost atlantean gold all the time--make me one of those suits! And me! And me! Yes! Steampunk powered armor for everyone!"

I just can't figure out how to stop THAT.

DeadEnded
2009-08-21, 07:40 PM
I'm using the cost as a prohibitive feature, just like magic items. A wizard of comparable levels could do about the same probably more as they have access to all of the item creation feats. This only allows you to create a golem and add enhancement to weapons and armor.

I have no problem with Bob the ranged fighter having a pistol or even an energy weapon. But someone in the group would have to pay for it. Even if I were to add 'craft wondrous item' to their ability list, it's still a matter of cost to create the items.

I think I may add craft wondrous item to their ability list as a breakthrough. It would be one of the only ones that fits the style and abilities of the Clockworker. And would make sense for upgrading the Clockwork Minion and making a variety of items that are already available.




Not to mention bringing back the old favorite the Apparatus of Kwalish....

DeadEnded
2009-08-22, 02:12 PM
Well, since the original post here really wasn't anything worth writing home about I've decided to turn this into the Clockworker Item List.

I was tinkering around today and I thought to myself, "Hey self, let's make some Items." So I sat down and came up with these 5. The first is my own idea inspired by the Captain's gear from Abney Park (link Provided), the airpirate's goggles are adaptations of the bracers of archery, and well the last two are my write ups for Agatha's Coffee Maker....... GOD do I wish it was real. Threw in the links to the Girl Genius comics that it comes from.

Anyway, let me know what you think and I'm sure I'll have more to come as I think about it.

DE~

And here they are:
Breather Mask - Clockworker 12th - 6750gp to create; 13,500gp market
This heavy leather mask with filters and rebreathers covers your nose and mouth which allows you to breath without air. It allows you to survive underwater or through clouds of gasses or poisons. The mask covers your nose taking the 'face' slot, though you may wear a pair of glasses, goggles or lenses with this item without a problem.

Airpirate's Goggles, Greater - Clockworker 8th - 12,500gp to create; 25,000gp market
These Brass bound lenses fit snug to the wearers face with closed sides to protect the wearers eyes from wind, rain and dust. These goggles empower the wearer to use any firearm or crossbow as if he were proficient in it's use. If he already has proficiency with any firearm or crossbow, he gains a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls and a +1 competence bonus on damage rolls whenever using that type of weapon. Both lenses of the goggles must be worn for this to be effective.

Airpirate's Goggles, Lesser - Clockworker 4th - 2500gp to create; 5000 market
These Brass bound lenses fit snug to the wearers face with closed sides to protect the wearers eyes from wind, rain and dust. These goggles empower the wearer to use any firearm or crossbow as if he were proficient in it's use. If he already has proficiency with any firearm or crossbow, he gains a +1 competence bonus on attack rolls whenever using that type of weapon. Both lenses of the goggles must be worn for this to be effective.

For the above three:
http://abneypark.com/market/index.ph...dex&cPath=5_15

Agatha's Perfect Cup of Coffee - No level to create, see coffee maker below. - 250gp to create, 500gp market
This Coffee is perfect: the aroma, flavor, aftertaste. Everything. Is. Perfect. As long as it stays hot; the coffee cools very quickly though and in 2+1d6 minutes becomes undrinkable. The user will go on and on about how 'perfect' everything is for a number of minutes equal to the cooling time. Drinking this potion while it's hot gives the user an additional 'immediate' action each round of combat for 4 hours. This does not allow the user to cast more than one 'swift' spell per turn, but it would allow activating items or class abilities that are actions.

Agatha's Perfect Coffee Maker - Clockworker level 13 to build; 50,000gp to create; 100,000 market
This 500 lb. machine makes The Perfect Cup of Coffee. Don't ask how it does it just enjoy. It is capable of making one cup per hour. It requires fresh water, coffee beans, sugar and cream for each cup.

http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20070618
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20070620
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20070622
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20070625

Bracer of Holding - Class level 9; 500gp to create, 1000gp market
This bracer appears to be an ordinary sort of bracer with three pouches attached to one end. It is constructed of finely crafted leather and brass components, the details are exquisite. The two side pouches look like they will hold about a pint of material, but in fact are bags of holding and will hold about 1 cubic foot in volume or 10lbs in weight. The larger central pouch can contain up to 4 cubic feet or 40lbs. of material. Even when filled the bracers always weighs 2.5lbs.
While such storage is useful enough, the bracer has an even greater power in addition. When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top. Thus, no digging around and fumbling is ever necessary to find what the Bracer contains. Retrieving any specific item from the bracer is a move action but it does not provoke the attacks of opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/synnist...-steampunkgear

Necklaces of Viewing - Class level 8; 10,000gp to create, 20,000gp market
This pair of necklaces are only useful when worn by two different creatures.
Activating a necklace turns it's mate into a tiny viewing screen. The other necklace shows whatever is in front of the wearer, or wherever the face of the activated necklace is turned. The activated necklace broadcasts both sight and sound to it's mate necklace. Both necklaces can be activated at the same time and used for communication between two groups of people. When not activated a Necklace shows an engraved ivory picture of the other wearer.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/madartj...-steampunkgear

Electro Gauntlet - Class level 5; 1500 to create, 3000gp market
Gives shocking weapon property to a melee weapon, hand to hand, or touch attacks. This gauntlet does not impart it's bonuses to a non-metal weapon OR to a magic weapon. This takes up a hand slot.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jenart/...-steampunkgear

Clockworker's Coat - Class level 14; 37,500gp cost to create; 75,000gp market
This heavy lined leather coat comes in a variety of styles, whatever happened to be fashionable when the coat was made. The white lined coat can only be worn by a good aligned character; the grey, neutral; and finally the black evil.
Wearing the coat provides the following bonuses:
* +5 Armor bonus to AC
* Spell resistance 18
* +4 resistance bonus on all saving throws
* 200gp per day in parts useable for repairs and constructing, these parts are worthless as anything other than fodder for the clockworker's abilities.

If a white lined coat is worn by an evil character, they immediately gain three permanent negative levels. The reverse is true with respect to a black lined coat and a good aligned character. An evil or good character wearing a grey lined coat or a neutal who wears a white or black lined coat gains two permanent negative levels. Those levels remain as long as the coat is worn and cannot be overcome in anyway (including restoration spells). They are immediately removed if the coat is removed.

http://www.gram.pl/upl/artykul/20060609173716.jpg

Engineer's Manual
Create: 5000gp Market: 10000gp
When you study this copper and brass bound book for 24 hours over 3 days; requiring a DC 25 Knowledge(Engineering) check; you may trade any class levels you have on a one for one basis for levels in Clockworker.
You must be a 10th level clockworker to create this book.

That's everything for now. Thanks for stopping by and taking a peek.

Innis Cabal
2009-08-22, 02:15 PM
Why not just use the Artificer base class?

Milskidasith
2009-08-22, 02:17 PM
You need to get more Advanced Breakthroughs; getting just one isn't that great. I'd recommend dropping the Advanced Breakthrough thing; just make some breakthroughs require other ones.

DracoDei
2009-08-22, 02:53 PM
This is not the first time someone has tried to do a Spark based base class, I say this not to discourage you, but just to tell you you should try a Google search along the lines of:
site:www.giantitp.com Hetrodyne
Or maybe replace "Hetrodyne" with "Girl Genius" (including the quotes).
If you are feeling altruistic you could even write it up for the Compendium.

Anyway, have a look and see the ideas to use and any potential pitfalls.

Debihuman
2009-08-22, 05:22 PM
FYI, awaken construct is a spell from Savage Species pg 63. It's a 9th level spell but it makes sense for a Clockworker to have this one. All you have to do is mention that clockworkers can cast this spell [since it is their only spell] at a much earlier level than could a cleric, sorcerer or wizard. It is a 9th level cleric, sorcerer or wizard spell, but it could be a 5th level spell for a clockworker, which would allow them to cast it at 10th level.

Do clockwork minons need to be wound up to work? It would be nifty if this was a feature and it would make them different from other constructs. Each clockwork minon would have a slot for a key [more than one key can be made for a clockwork minion and keys do not need to be specific to each so that one key could fit several clockwork minions]. Once wound, a clockwork minion is powered for 24 hours. A clockwork minon always knows when it is nears winding time. Some could even be self-winding or never need winding [although that strikes me as an advanced breakthrough].

Instead of more Advanced Breakthroughs, you need more breakthroughs since a clockworker gets one at every even level. Thus far, you only have 5 and you need at 10 (more if you want to give the player's extra choice).

Here are some ideas:

Submersible: your clockwork minion can function underwater. Clockwork minons without this feature can only function in water for 2d4 minutes before they stop working. Once dried out completely, they regain their function.

Energy resistant: Your clockwork minon gains an energy resistance 5. This can be taken multiple times but a different energy type must be taken each time.

Extend: Your clockwork minion has extendable arms and gains an extra 5 feet to its reach.

Extra Height: Your clockwork minion has extendable legs and gains an extra 5 feet to its full height.

Stability: Your clockwork minion is exceptionally stable and receives a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground.

Debby

DeadEnded
2009-08-22, 10:16 PM
Why not just use the Artificer base class?
I've never seen the artificer class.


FYI, awaken construct is a spell from Savage Species pg 63. It's a 9th level spell but it makes sense for a Clockworker to have this one. All you have to do is mention that clockworkers can cast this spell [since it is their only spell] at a much earlier level than could a cleric, sorcerer or wizard. It is a 9th level cleric, sorcerer or wizard spell, but it could be a 5th level spell for a clockworker, which would allow them to cast it at 10th level.

I like this idea, and I'll be changing the 10th level ability to fit that. Thanks.


Do clockwork minons need to be wound up to work? It would be nifty if this was a feature and it would make them different from other constructs. Each clockwork minon would have a slot for a key [more than one key can be made for a clockwork minion and keys do not need to be specific to each so that one key could fit several clockwork minions]. Once wound, a clockwork minion is powered for 24 hours. A clockwork minon always knows when it is nears winding time. Some could even be self-winding or never need winding [although that strikes me as an advanced breakthrough].

I actually hadn't thought of that. If I did that with the class I'm more in thinking that it's something the Clockworker would do automatically say like a wizard prepping spells in the morning. This would definitely fall under a maybe.


Instead of more Advanced Breakthroughs, you need more breakthroughs since a clockworker gets one at every even level. Thus far, you only have 5 and you need at 10 (more if you want to give the player's extra choice).

LOL that's why I'm here, I ran out of my own ideas at the wee hours of the morning when I wrote this and wanted all the spiffy help from everyone who'd take a look here.


Submersible: your clockwork minion can function underwater. Clockwork minons without this feature can only function in water for 2d4 minutes before they stop working. Once dried out completely, they regain their function.

Energy resistant: Your clockwork minon gains an energy resistance 5. This can be taken multiple times but a different energy type must be taken each time.

Extend: Your clockwork minion has extendable arms and gains an extra 5 feet to its reach.

Extra Height: Your clockwork minion has extendable legs and gains an extra 5 feet to its full height.

Stability: Your clockwork minion is exceptionally stable and receives a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground.

Debby

I like these, and I'm going to add them to the mix. Not quite sure what adding Height to a minion would do but I like it.

Thanks a lot, if anyone else has any more ideas for Breakthroughs please post them. I know I need more so please toss'em at me.

DeadEnded~

Debihuman
2009-08-22, 11:22 PM
I hadn't really considered what Extra Height does, but perhaps this could be a variant of Powerful Build and lets the clockwork minion function as if it were one size category larger.

Debby

Count Platypus
2009-08-23, 01:39 AM
the added hight would also bo useful for mundane uses such as climbing up onto a ledge, or jumping up to grab a branch, or lifting their master up to do said things.

DeadEnded
2009-08-23, 02:17 AM
I like both ideas for added height's bonus. I think that could work really well.

Not to mention making it easier for gnomes to get stuff of the top shelf.

DracoDei
2009-08-23, 02:44 AM
If both are good, maybe both should be kept, but one re-named?

DeadEnded
2009-08-23, 04:32 AM
I've changed and added your suggestions and have edited the original post to update it.

Let me know what you think and keep those ideas coming ....

hhmm maybe damage reduction .... as an advanced ... I'll have to think on that.

DeadEnded~

Mangles
2009-08-23, 07:33 AM
This is great, I love it.

However at the moment you can add one blade two muskets and two pistols too your minion all at once. While i agree that it should have more than one weapon I think this is all a bit much. Perhaps a maximum of two weapons of whichever type or one gun and one bladed weapon maximum. Or the same two hands situation, so one musket or one blade and pistol. Not sure which is more balanced, but 4 guns and a giant war axe seem a bit much.

As for breakthrough

In built trinket -
You have constructed a special casing within your construct allowing a small trinket (either a ring or amulet or something or similar size) to be placed within. The energies running through the construct activate this and the construct gains all the effects the trinket grants. You may take this breakthrough once per size category above small your construct is. (Needs rewording but i think you get the gist)

DeadEnded
2009-08-23, 07:57 AM
This is great, I love it.

However at the moment you can add one blade two muskets and two pistols too your minion all at once. While i agree that it should have more than one weapon I think this is all a bit much. Perhaps a maximum of two weapons of whichever type or one gun and one bladed weapon maximum. Or the same two hands situation, so one musket or one blade and pistol. Not sure which is more balanced, but 4 guns and a giant war axe seem a bit much.

As for breakthrough

In built trinket -
You have constructed a special casing within your construct allowing a small trinket (either a ring or amulet or something or similar size) to be placed within. The energies running through the construct activate this and the construct gains all the effects the trinket grants. You may take this breakthrough once per size category above small your construct is. (Needs rewording but i think you get the gist)

YOU SIR .... are a genius, I didn't even realize that. Later in the day when I'm a little better rested (damn insomnia) I shall return and edit that into the breakthroughs, as my language skills are slipping a little at the moment. Though I think maybe an advanced breakthough to give two more arms might be in order. Say with a prereq of large size? what do you think?

DE~

DracoDei
2009-08-23, 10:59 AM
I believe constructs are capable of wearing magic items normally anyway, so that would just let you double up (2 cloaks for instance).

DeadEnded
2009-08-23, 03:16 PM
I was only talking about the current 'flaw' that you could add a half dozen weapons to the golem. I fixed it now. I also came up with another advanced breakthrough.

Nothing like extra appendages to hug you in the morning.

DE~

P.S. What do you think of this:

Breakthrough
Damage Reduction- Through study, trial and error, and a good bit of luck you've found an alloy to give your minion damage reduction (2/- +2/- for every 3 class levels you possses)

It would give a total of 14 damage reduction at 18th level, not amazing but not terrible either. And it would go a long way to keeping your minion functioning.

Edit: added in the submersible breakthrough 'cause I forgot it earlier.

DeadEnded
2009-08-23, 09:16 PM
Why not just use the Artificer base class?

Ok, I've done a whole lot of digging around and I can't find this Artificer class you're talking about anywhere. What book is it in or what thread/webpage?

Debihuman
2009-08-23, 10:51 PM
I believe the Artificer was in the Eberron Campaign Setting but I could be wrong.

Debby

DeadEnded
2009-08-23, 11:07 PM
That would be why I can't find it. I have no Eberron books, I've looked at some but I didn't really care for the 'flavor' of the world.

Can I get a rundown of what they can do and how the class would be a beneficial to adding breakthroughs or other class abilities to my Clockworker?

Please?

DE~

Mando Knight
2009-08-23, 11:30 PM
I've never seen the artificer class.

Now, see, this is where we say...
"Let me Google that for you." (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=artificer)

DeadEnded
2009-08-24, 12:38 AM
Now, see, this is where we say...
"Let me Google that for you." (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=artificer)

yes yes, that's nice and all, but it still doesn't help. It doesn't bring up any Artificer Base Class Innis was talking about. It does bring up some rather spiffy sites on creating Iron and Brass nicknacks:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/artificer

A couple of links with some description about the class from Wizards:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060328a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080702

And http://www.icubed.com/users/jrose/jartindx.html
a site with some rather interesting and nice things for someone who is a reenactor.


Oh, and I did that search you pointed out long before I asked about someone posting me the an actual link to find the STATS of the artificer. But thanks for the help, I've never seen the 'let me google that for you' site before gave me a good laugh before i saw I'd visited the sites it pointed to.

So if any can actually point me to the class stats for the artificer, please and thank you. If not then I'm not going to worry about it and I am going to continue to work on this class .... Cause I think it would be much more productive of our time.

DE~

Eloel
2009-08-24, 01:21 AM
Giving Artificer stats to you would be illegal.
But make a search for Eberron Campaign Setting. You're bound to find something interesting :smallwink:

DeadEnded
2009-08-24, 02:02 AM
well looks like anything artificer is out then. I don't own the books and no one i know owns them and I'm not going to download them.

no skin off my nose actually lol.

But, as the newest body to check out this thread, what do you think of my class so far?

DE~

DeadEnded
2009-08-24, 04:08 AM
I've updated the class again. weapon and armor profs, couple more breakthroughs.

if anyone has anymore ideas i'm all ears.

Thanks in advance
DE~

DeadEnded
2009-08-25, 01:03 AM
I found the 'Gnome Artificer' PrC in the magic of faerun book. I'm thinking of a bit of a revamp to incorporate some of the ideas I found there into this.

I like where I've got this going but I definitely need some stuff for the actual character as opposed to making the minion buffer.

Mangles
2009-08-26, 08:56 PM
I love this class and am watching it with great interest

DeadEnded
2009-08-27, 08:01 PM
I think I've got a decent 13th level ability. But I don't know how viable it would be.

Salvage - You can salvage broken Golems and Clockworks for parts for your own inventions. You find materials equal to 1/4 the market cost of the golem or clockwork that are salvageable. These parts can go toward any mechanism you know how to create.

Putting it any lower and it's pretty much a waste. Players won't usually see a golem till about 7th level and the class can't make any more golems until 11th when it gets both the abilities to replicate the feats needed.

Does anyone have a good idea for 3rd level? or any of the other 'open' levels?

What about opening up the potions at 3rd level and rods at 13th level? Maybe with a list of potions they can make instead of just any spell up to 3rd level.

Debihuman
2009-08-28, 12:18 PM
You really should fix the Clockwork Minion. Base Attack Bonus is solely based on type. You imply that it should have bonuses for size, hit dice and strength and that is wrong. Only the attack scores get bonuses, BAB never changes. BAB is +0 for a 1 hit die clockwork minion in your sample.

Edit: Also hit dice is 1d10 + 10 (15 hp) because constructs get bonus hit points based on size. Since the fist level clockworker adds a +1 to the hit dice it really should be 2d10 +10 (21 hp).

Also, the awaken construct spell does give full Int to a clockwork minion so you can give feats and skills to a clockwork minion. So you may want to make a second sample showing the kind of clockwork minion that could be made at level 10.

It would be better if you stated up the clockwork golem as a standard 3.5 monster.

2nd edit: Why are ride and swim skills for a clockworker?

Debby

DeadEnded
2009-08-28, 06:34 PM
Let me answer in reverse order cause I've got more to say about the second than the first.

Ride and Swim are there because of the limited skill choice in pathfinder, and I felt the class needed to be rounded out a bit. No spells or magic would give the class more time to pursue skills like ride and swim. Besides how else are you going to test a Clockwork underwater... Or one that you can use as a vehicle if you can't ride it or swim with it. :smallbiggrin:

Rebuilding the minion is in the works. I've been working on other breakthroughs and such to buff up the actual character for the last few but I knew there were problems when I first posted it. I've written up 4 new breakthroughs, rewritten 4 others and I think I'm pretty well done with a good set of stuff that a Clockworker can make.

3 new regular breakthroughs = flame thrower, lightning gun, and freeze ray.
1 advanced breakthrough = grenade launcher.

And changes to Explosive, Big Bang, and both energy weapons.

I'm going to rework the Minion tonight all the way if I can, and then sunday if I need to finish more. My game group meets tomorrow and I want to get this into beta ASAP, glad a friend is starting a new campaign.

Thanks everyone for your notes :)
DeadEnded~

DeadEnded
2009-08-28, 09:23 PM
Ok, I've updated a bunch of stuff including the clockwork minion and explaining the AC bonus, adjusted a number of breakthroughs and added a few more and now I think I'm close to done for the beta test.

I'm going to try and get this into my friends game this Saturday (6th level, homebrew world). I don't see a problem with it, but my usual gaming group is very gunshy about anything not from a book at times.

Wish me Luck
DeadEnded~

Debihuman
2009-08-28, 11:24 PM
Your table is now all messed up. You've taken the first level clockworker and treated him like a construct (the clockworker is the class and should be a humanoid in most cases).

I recommend that you delete the tables and get rid of the "base minion" altogether because it doesn't make any sense. You can't have a -1 Base Attack Bonus even if you begin with a 1 hit die construct before you add the adjustments that the clockworker base class adds, especially since the Clockworker class doesn't add to BAB. It adds 1 HD, 1 natural to AC and 1 skill point. Constructs use the same BAB as Clerics.

Also, the 3rd level for clockworkers really sucks as they get only their normal feat.

Fly is not a skill in 3.5 though it is in the Pathfinder RPG. You need to stick with one system or the other.

Debby

DeadEnded
2009-08-29, 05:11 AM
I have no idea what to put in 3rd level, or any of the other 'empty' levels. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

I'm using the pathfinder system. I went through everything again and didn't see anything 3.5, but that could have been in something I just deleted or changed anyway :)

It has become readily apparent that I suck at monster construction, but I'm going to keep at this till I get something playable. I want this right. I've posted the new stat block, and a 10th level version of said stat block. Take a look and tell me what you think.

Back to the workshop, the gears await for yet another round of Minion Creation.

DE~

Debihuman
2009-08-29, 10:16 AM
You should put "Pathfinder" in the Title. With several D20 games out there (3.5, 4e and Pathfinder, it helps to identify which one you use). Pathfinder is new enough that you might not get much help there.

Also, maybe you should stat out a Tinker since that would be a consistent creature. I'm not sure what they should look like so I left that information out.

Here's how I think it should look but you are the final arbiter in these things:

Tinker
Diminutive Construct
Hit Die: 1d10 (5 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft.
Armor Class: 10, Touch 10, Flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/—
Attack: —
Full Attack: —
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: None
Special Qualities: Construct traits, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort + 0, Ref +0, Will +0
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 11, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 11
Skills: —
Feats: —
Environment: Any Non-Aquatic
Organization: Solitary or with creator
Challenge Rating: ½
Treasure: —
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

This construct provides a +2 circumstance bonus on any Craft or Disable Device check. This construct cannot attack or be modified with weapons, but it can be modified with any other type of breakthroughs. Like clockwork minions, tinkers submerged in water will work for 2d4 minutes before becoming fouled and ceasing to function until removed from the water and dried out. Tinkers are non-combative and retreat at the first sign of trouble. Due to their size, they have a +12 bonus to Hide checks.


The clockwork minions look better but why should it have a -4 to Str? Here's how I think it should look:


Sample Clockwork Minion
Small Construct
Hit Dice: 2d10 +10 (21 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft.
Armor Class: 13 (+1 size, +1 natural, +1 Dex), Touch 12, Flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-3
Attack: Slam +2 melee (1d4)
Full Attack: 2 slams +2 melee (1d4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: None
Special Qualities: Construct traits, darkvision 60 ft., low light vision
Saves: Fort + 0, Ref +1, Will +0
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 12, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 11
Skills: —
Feats: —
Environment: Any Non-Aquatic
Organization: Solitary or with creator
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —



For 3rd level, I recommend giving the clockworker Improvised Weapon Proficiency. Any tools that the clockworker has with him can be used as weapons without the standard -4 penalty to attack.

For 17th level, I recommend giving the clockworker the ability to command constructs as if the construct's creator had ordered the construct to obey the commands of another person. This ability only works if the actual creator is not within 100 feet of the construct. The construct's actual creator can always resume control over the construct. This ability does not allow the clockworker to control berserk constructs. A clockworker can command up to 1 HD/level of constructs, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart. Edit: This should be a supernatural ability rather than an extraordinary one.


Debby

Jman1906
2009-08-29, 10:29 AM
I only got three words for you...
BEST CLASS EVER!!!

DeadEnded
2009-08-29, 01:10 PM
Also, maybe you should stat out a Tinker since that would be a consistent creature. I'm not sure what they should look like so I left that information out.

Here's how I think it should look but you are the final arbiter in these things:

Tinker
Diminutive Construct
Hit Die: 1d10 (5 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft.
Armor Class: 10, Touch 10, Flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/—
Attack: —
Full Attack: —
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: None
Special Qualities: Construct traits, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort + 0, Ref +0, Will +0
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 11, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 11
Skills: —
Feats: —
Environment: Any Non-Aquatic
Organization: Solitary or with creator
Challenge Rating: ½
Treasure: —
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

This construct provides a +2 circumstance bonus on any Craft or Disable Device check. This construct cannot attack or be modified with weapons, but it can be modified with any other type of breakthroughs. Like clockwork minions, tinkers submerged in water will work for 2d4 minutes before becoming fouled and ceasing to function until removed from the water and dried out. Tinkers are non-combative and retreat at the first sign of trouble. Due to their size, they have a +12 bonus to Hide checks.


I like this, I'm going to use it as is. Thank you very much :)


The clockwork minions look better but why should it have a -4 to Str? Here's how I think it should look:

AH I did a base 10 at medium for all stats, then I went through and adjusted it for size. Smaller got a -4 str and a +2 dex.


For 3rd level, I recommend giving the clockworker Improvised Weapon Proficiency. Any tools that the clockworker has with him can be used as weapons without the standard -4 penalty to attack.

For 17th level, I recommend giving the clockworker the ability to command constructs as if the construct's creator had ordered the construct to obey the commands of another person. This ability only works if the actual creator is not within 100 feet of the construct. The construct's actual creator can always resume control over the construct. This ability does not allow the clockworker to control berserk constructs. A clockworker can command up to 1 HD/level of constructs, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart. Edit: This should be a supernatural ability rather than an extraordinary one.


Debby

Brilliant. Just Brilliant. I'm using all of this and I thank you greatly for the ideas.

I'll be updating this Immediately with what you have here, adding in the Salvage ability at 13th level and calling it a day today. If anyone has anything for 19th level give a shout.

Also, everyone who's given me the 'thumbs up' and all the cheers thanks :cool: You are all in my kool book.

DE~

DeadEnded
2009-08-30, 01:14 PM
Well everyone, I had my first game beta for the clockworker and I've found a few problems that needed to be fixed as well as having my gaming group have a few problems with a couple of abilities.

I'm going to post my character Edmund Reichenbach and his Clockwork Minion Clank and explain the changes I'm making to the original character post here.

Edmund

HD 6d8+12 (48hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 30'
AC: 21 (10 +6 Armor +4 Dex +1 AC bonus)
Base Attack: +4
Attack: +4
Full Attack: Rapier +5 (1d6+1); +1 Pistol +10 (1d10+1)
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
Special Attacks: none
Special Qualities: Breakthroughs:Trapfinding, Firearm (pistol), Better Bullet; Tinker, Repair,
Saves: F+4; R+9; W+5
*Abilities: Str -12 Dex -18 Con -14 Int -16 Wis -10 Cha -10
Skills: Craft(Construct) 14, Craft(Weaponsmith) 14, Craft(Armorsmith) 14, Disable Device 20, Knowledge(Engineering) 15, Perception 12, Ride 13, Sense Motive 6, Swim 10
Feats: Skill Focus: Perception, Point Blank Shot, WP Focus: Pistol, Precise Shot
Gear: +1 Mithril Chain Mail, +1 Pistol, Goggles of Minute Seeing, 10 Cure Light Potions, Scarab of Golembane, 5 Remove Fear Potions, 2 Steel Shadows Potions(tome of magic), 2 Comprehend Languages Potions. +60g of basic equipment.


Clank

HD 7d10+20 (64hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30'
AC: 19 (10 +3 Dex +6 Natural Armor)
Base Attack: +5
Attack: +5 (base - Str)
Full Attack: Slam +5 (1d6); +1 Pistol +9 (1d10+1)
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
Special Attacks: none
Special Qualities: Construct Traits, Lowlight Vision, Darkvision 60'
Saves: F+2; R+5; W+2
*Abilities: Str -10 Dex -16 Con -- Int -- Wis -10 Cha -10
Skills: - +2 Climb(racial), +2 Acrobatics(racial)
Feats: -
Gear: Large Cowbell, 2 Sunrods


Half the group hated the 'Awaken Construct' ability so I'm pulling it. They believed that it was way too powerful. There is a precedent with the druid spell 'Awaken' that says once sentient the minion would no longer be a minion. To replace this I've moved up when your minion can get larger.

A minion can't do much so my friend Adam and I came up with a way and some reasoning behind giving the minion a 'false' intelligence of 3.

I checked the other constructs and they work fine in any environment. So I'm pulling the submersion rules. Changed the Submersible breakthrough to give swim speed instead.

Keeping a minion up and running after a battle is going to take parts, parts cost money. So to show this, repairing a construct is 2g per point of damage being repaired.

Added Perception to the class skill list.

Changed the following breakthroughs: Flame Thrower, Lightning Gun, and Freeze Ray, Flying Pack.

My friend came up with an Item for people other than clockworkers to help get the class into an established game:


Engineer's Manual
Create: 5000gp Market: 10000gp
When you study this copper and brass bound book for 24 hours over 3 days; requiring a DC 25 Knowledge(Engineering) check; you may trade any class levels you have on a one for one basis for levels in Clockworker.
You must be a 10th level clockworker to create this book.

Still need an Ability for 19th level. Any ideas throw them out there. I'm thinking this is really close to done.

DE~

Debihuman
2009-08-31, 03:59 AM
Well, my only real objection to the way you've statted out the first level clockwork minion is that you've given it some intelligence, which it should not have. These should be mindless because even a first level clockworker can make one and he doesn't have access to the awaken construct spell.

Also, any creature, even constructs, with even 1 point of Int gets skills and feats.

I'm not fond of the clockwork minion taking a -4 penalty to Str simply due to size: these aren't Medium creatures that are being reduced to Small size. They start as Small creatures and advance to larger sizes so giving them a standard Str of 10 makes sense. They would get size bonuses for advancing and for creatures of metal that would make sense that they'd get a significant boost a Medium size.

Also, Small creatures already take a penalty to the amount of stuff they can carry and giving them a size penalty really makes it worse. Even with a 10 Str, they can carry 24 pounds as light load, 25-48 pounds as a medium load and 49-72 pounds as a heavy load. If you reduce their Str to 6, they can only carry 13 lbs as a light load, 14-26 as a medium load and 27-39 pounds as a heavy load.

One thing I'm changing if I decide to use this class is that I'm requiring that the clockwork minions need to be wound by key once every 24 hours. The clockworker can use a standard Breathrough to make a self-winding clockwork minion or use an Advanced Breakthrough to make a non-winding clockwork minon. An inert clockwork minion is treated as an object and has a hardness of 10 but retains its own hit dice and hit points. I think this differentiates a clockwork minion from a golem a bit better.

Good luck with the playtesting by the way.

Debby

DeadEnded
2009-08-31, 07:55 AM
Well, my only real objection to the way you've statted out the first level clockwork minion is that you've given it some intelligence, which it should not have. These should be mindless because even a first level clockworker can make one and he doesn't have access to the awaken construct spell.

Also, any creature, even constructs, with even 1 point of Int gets skills and feats.
The idea is to make the thing a bonus and less of a hindrance, it is the main feature to the class. Without the 3 Int it would end up getting at first level it can't really keep up with the party. The reason is because it can't 'do' much of anything without some form in Int. Can't climb or jump, things adventurers do regularly. Without SOME way of being able to use these skills the minion is stuck at the first 15' cliff or 10' jump the group gets to. Sure, you can tie a rope to the minion and pull it up the cliff, but not the gap for the jump. The other Inevitables (outerplanar constructs) from the MM have an intelligence score, about average human, two 10's and a 12 for the three different types.

The 'Awaken Construct' spell costs: (in pathfinder) 25,000gp and the fresh brain of a sentient creature. It gives normal roll (3d6) Intelligence, or on average a 10 Intelligence score. It's also a 9th level spell. The people in my group felt that giving it at 10th level, once a week, and 5000gp cost was over powered / game breaking. Also if you look under the 'Awaken' spell (which awaken construct is modeled off of) it states that you can't use whatever was awakened as your animal companion. Since we're in essence building a companion with this ability it needs to sit about on par with that.

An animal companion gets skills, feats, and can learn 'tricks' that the druid can teach it. And every few levels it gets an intelligence increase, just for being the druid's companion, why can't our minion get the same?


I'm not fond of the clockwork minion taking a -4 penalty to Str simply due to size: these aren't Medium creatures that are being reduced to Small size. They start as Small creatures and advance to larger sizes so giving them a standard Str of 10 makes sense. They would get size bonuses for advancing and for creatures of metal that would make sense that they'd get a significant boost a Medium size.

Also, Small creatures already take a penalty to the amount of stuff they can carry and giving them a size penalty really makes it worse. Even with a 10 Str, they can carry 24 pounds as light load, 25-48 pounds as a medium load and 49-72 pounds as a heavy load. If you reduce their Str to 6, they can only carry 13 lbs as a light load, 14-26 as a medium load and 27-39 pounds as a heavy load.
If you look at both the small races in the pathfinder book they both take a strength hit. Granted it's only -2, but with the minions immunity bonuses and construct traits the -4 to strength sits fine with me. For 5 levels, provided the clockworker doesn't add his 5 ability points to the minions strength, the small minion can carry 15lbs as light load,16-30lbs as a medium load, and 31-45lbs as heavy load. Basically a Halfling or Gnome who didn't raise his str from base 8 would carry the same. and at level 5 the minion improves to medium and gets a 10 str, plus whatever the clockworker put into the minion's strength up to that point. It's not that bad a hit for a small creature, especially if you have the option of dropping points into strength each level.



One thing I'm changing if I decide to use this class is that I'm requiring that the clockwork minions need to be wound by key once every 24 hours. The clockworker can use a standard Breathrough to make a self-winding clockwork minion or use an Advanced Breakthrough to make a non-winding clockwork minon. An inert clockwork minion is treated as an object and has a hardness of 10 but retains its own hit dice and hit points. I think this differentiates a clockwork minion from a golem a bit better.

Debby
Requiring the Clockworker or someone else to wind the minion is aesthetics, the clockworker is going to do it every day anyway. I like the idea as an aesthetic one, but for game play I don't think this would be big enough an issue. Also keep in mind that the Inevitables, which are drawn as clockworks in the MM and are from Mechanus the giant clockwork plane, don't need winding. If you do plan on using the winding drawback, I would set the hardness equal to the minions Natural Armor because that's essentially what it is.

As always thanks for your input Debby, it's really helping me put my ideas in order, and justifying my decisions is definitely helping me word things correctly for the final draft ... when it gets finally gets there. :biggrin:

DE~

Debihuman
2009-08-31, 10:57 AM
I'm still getting used to Pathfinder, so forgive me for any difference between that and D&D 3.5.

The sample Clockwork minion should be mindless because you can't make an intelligent construct until 10th level. However, that doesn't make them unuseable. They can be commanded by their creator to do things.

Acrobatics (under which the jump is found) can be used untrained. It couldn't disable a trap since that is a trained skill. Your sample clockwork minion even with no ranks in Acrobatics could indeed jump, but only a maxiumum of 20 feet. You can command it to guard or carry things and it never gets tired. If it falls behind, it doesn't need to spend 8 hours resting. Believe me, your players will find ways to use these in ways you never thought of. Same with the tinker.

In fact, a first level clockworker has access to both a Tinker and a Clockwork minion and both can be "upgraded" over time.

Debby

Debihuman
2009-08-31, 11:34 AM
Well everyone, I had my first game beta for the clockworker and I've found a few problems that needed to be fixed as well as having my gaming group have a few problems with a couple of abilities.



Let me address your problem: First, Clank has the wrong number of Hit Dice for the Level that it's creator is. Second, awaken construct can't be used until EDMUND is 10th level. So of course, you've overpowered Clank.

If Edmund is 6th level, then Clank has 7 HD not 11 HD. 1 base +6 for Edmund's level. Also, Clank is mindless and has an Int -- because Edmund isn't able to use awaken construct until he is 10th level. If you adjust for that perhaps you'll get back on track. If you think awaken construct is too unbalancing then remove it all together, but then you can't create an intelligent construct.

BTW, the false life spell doesn't give you any intelligence, it just gives you temporary hit points. Furthermore, it can't be cast on anyone else but the caster himself.

There's a reason for the submersion rules: it's called balance. These are clockwork constructs and have that vulnerabilty. Pulling that will overpower your game. If you really don't like, then it can be added as an Advanced Breakthrough. At 6th level, Edmund couldn't put this on Clank because Advanced Breakthroughs require Edmund to be 10th level.

Here's how I think waterproof should look:

Waterproof: Your clockwork minion can function under water without becoming disabled. This does not grant your clockwork minion the ability to swim.

Edit: I changed it from "water resistant" to "waterproof" because "resistance" has a particular meaning in D&D and in Pathfinder and this is less confusing.

Debby

DeadEnded
2009-08-31, 04:50 PM
I'm still getting used to Pathfinder, so forgive me for any difference between that and D&D 3.5.
It's not a 'BIG' switch just a whole lot of little switches. It took me a few to get all the little details down.


The sample Clockwork minion should be mindless because you can't make an intelligent construct until 10th level. However, that doesn't make them unuseable. They can be commanded by their creator to do things.

Acrobatics (under which the jump is found) can be used untrained. It couldn't disable a trap since that is a trained skill. Your sample clockwork minion even with no ranks in Acrobatics could indeed jump, but only a maxiumum of 20 feet. You can command it to guard or carry things and it never gets tired. If it falls behind, it doesn't need to spend 8 hours resting. Believe me, your players will find ways to use these in ways you never thought of. Same with the tinker.
The problem is because it's unintelligent it can't make those skill checks even if commanded. It doesn't know what how to jump, or climb. It knows follow and attack, that's about it.


Let me address your problem: First, Clank has the wrong number of Hit Dice for the Level that it's creator is. Second, awaken construct can't be used until EDMUND is 10th level. So of course, you've overpowered Clank.

If Edmund is 6th level, then Clank has 7 HD not 11 HD. 1 base +6 for Edmund's level. Also, Clank is mindless and has an Int -- because Edmund isn't able to use awaken construct until he is 10th level. If you adjust for that perhaps you'll get back on track. If you think awaken construct is too unbalancing then remove it all together, but then you can't create an intelligent construct.

That's a typo - my bad I fixed it, the HP was correct, as were the rest of the stats, so Clank is not overpowered in that sense.


BTW, the false life spell doesn't give you any intelligence, it just gives you temporary hit points. Furthermore, it can't be cast on anyone else but the caster himself.


I'm not sure what false life has to do with anything. As written if you cast fox's cunning on the minion it would get an intelligence enhancement of 4. Or drop a headband of intellect on it and it would get the bonus from that. Also go take a look at the Inevitables, pg158 of the MM. Constructs with Intelligence scores, human average for two and better than (Int 12) for the third. So there is a precedent for having a construct with an Int score.

Awaken construct is a 9th level spell, costs 25k gp (in pathfinder) and requires a fresh brain from a sentient creature. It also gives 3d6 (average 10) Int to the construct. Even with the original restrictions half my gaming group thought it was too powerful. And one vehemently argued that 'once a week' was not a limiting factor. He's wrong of course, but it is his opinion and he's entitled to it.


There's a reason for the submersion rules: it's called balance. These are clockwork constructs and have that vulnerabilty. Pulling that will overpower your game. If you really don't like, then it can be added as an Advanced Breakthrough.

With this vulnerability a cleric beats a clockworker's minion pretty much automatically. Create water spell creates enough to shut down the minion till it dries out. That means it's no longer a balance issue it's a serious detriment to the minion / class.

I checked every construct I could find and all of them had no problem working in water. For game balance making the clockworks vulnerable to water takes away a valuable breakthrough, which you only get 10 of, and sets it so the first rain storm or anyone with a 5 gallon bucket of water shuts down the minion. Too much of a detriment, especially for an adventuring party. Even one of the examples for the clockwork Inevitables has it walking across the ocean floor for months to get to another continent. So I'm dumping the water vulnerability.

Besides, when the druid's animal companion gets wet ... it just gets nasty wet animal smell and keeps going.

DeadEnded~

DracoDei
2009-08-31, 08:01 PM
Did I mention Lappy9000's Engineer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114229) class?

DeadEnded
2009-08-31, 08:03 PM
nope, I don't think you did.

Going to go search for it and see what can be seen :)

DE~

DracoDei
2009-08-31, 08:05 PM
See my edits to the above post.

DeadEnded
2009-08-31, 08:25 PM
I like some of the engineer stuff, but it feels a whole lot more like Iron Man than what I'm going for with the clockworker. A few things on there would fit nicely, I think, as breakthroughs but a few others don't fit the style? I'm going for.

It's given me a couple of ideas though and I'm going to develop them a bit first before posting the general idea to see if it pans out well and fits the feel I'm going for here.

Thanks very much for the point in this direction, you're a gentleman and a scholar, DracoDei.

DeadEnded~

DracoDei
2009-08-31, 08:54 PM
You are welcome, and I didn't think it would be something you would adopt in massive amounts, just close enough to get some inspiration.

Debihuman
2009-08-31, 11:51 PM
I have a few thoughts on what you mentioned earlier DE:

First, the create water spell doesn't usually create enough water to submerge a clockwork minion. It only creates 2 gallons per level. Don't forget, getting the clockwork minion wet, even soaked, isn't enough to stop it from working. It has to be submerged in water.

It takes quite a lot of to submerge a Small creature--certainly more than 2 gallons per level can create. And it can continue to work for 2d4 minutes even when submerged. A downpour wouldn't submerge it. Nor would a blast of water from a decanter of endless water. That's why I recommended that it had to be submerged not just that it can't get wet.

Second, I misread your post about "false" intelligence as false life. Not sure why. My error completely.


It doesn't know what how to jump, or climb. It knows follow and attack, that's about it.

No, it can still climb and jump. It rolls it just as any other untrained skill. It can be commanded to do anything. It can take 20 just like anyone else. It just does those tasks rather poorly. Obviously a 2HD clockwork minion isn't going to be powerful, but it isn't suppose to be. That's why it is a minion. . You can command it to guard, or fetch or climb a tree or pick a flower.

I'm not sure why you are comparing it to an inevitable. Inevitables can't be created by PCs. I'm merely suggesting that any construct created by a PC would have to follow the standard creation rules and that generally means that the constructs are mindless unless the PC can cast awaken construct. The closest construct for comparison's sake would be a golem.

Now, if that doesn't work for you that's okay. If your players think that the clockwork minion is overpowered, then don't allow 10th level clockworkers to have access to awaken construct. Perhaps a clockworker should gain it much later. Since it is normally a 9th level spell, a clockworker could have access to it at 19th level (instead of gaining it at level 10). Actually that balances it a lot better.

Right now the clockworker gets an Advanced Breakthrough at level along with awaken construct at level 10 and has no benefit for level 19. Moving awaken construct to level 19 would balance a bit better. A standard caster could cast awaken construct at at level 17, but clockworkers don't have spells. Giving awaken construct to the clockworker at 2 levels higher is fair. I'd still make it a once a week ability. Effectively, awakening a clockwork minion frees it from your control though it still would be friendly. I imagine it would gain feats and skills at that point.

Constructs are immune to mind-affecting effects. A DM could rule that a clockwork minion can't benefit from a headband of mental prowess [Pathfinder's version of the headband of intellect] or from a fox's cunning spell for that reason. . More importantly, if a headband of intellect showed up, the spellcasters would gain much more benefit from it than would the clockwork minion. Casting fox's [I]cunning on a clockwork minion might be useful, but the spell only lasts for 2 minutes per level and there are probably much better uses for that spell.

Yes, there are ways around the lack of intellect and the water submersion, but it seems you are using this as an NPC class rather than as a PC class and that wasn't my initial impression when you first posted this.

Last Edit: This is how I would have statted Edmund and Clank:


Edmund
Medium Humanoid (human)
6th level Clockworker
Hit Dice: 6d8+12 (48 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 30 feet
Armor Class: 21 (+6 +1 Mithral Chain Armor, +4 Dex, +1 AC bonus), Touch 14, Flat-footed 17
Base Attack: +4
Attack: Rapier + 5 melee (1d6+1) or +1 pistol +10 ranged (1d10+1)
Full Attack: Rapier +5 melee (1d6+1) or +1 Pistol +10 (1d10+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: None
Special Qualities: Breakthrough Trapfinding, Breakthrough Firearm (pistol), Breakthrough Better Bullet, Tinker, Repair
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +9, Will +5
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills: Craft (Construct) 14, Craft (Weaponsmith) 14, Craft (Armorsmith) 14, Disable Device 20, Knowledge(Engineering) 15, Perception 12, Ride 13, Sense Motive 6, Swim 10
Feats: Skill Focus (Perception), Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (Pistol), Precise Shot
Gear: +1 Mithral Chain Mail, +1 Pistol, Goggles of Minute Seeing, 10 Cure Light Potions, Scarab of Golembane, 5 Remove Fear Potions, 2 Steel Shadows Potions (Tome of Magic), 2 Comprehend Languages Potions. +60gp of basic equipment.


Clank
Medium Clockwork Minion
Hit Dice: 7d10+20 (64 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft.
Armor Class: 19 (+3 Dex +6 Natural Armor), Touch 13, Flat-footed 16
Base Attack: +5
Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d6) or +1 pistol +9 ranged (1d10+1)
Full Attack: 2 Slams +5 melee (1d6) or +1 Pistol +9 (1d10+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: None
Special Qualities: Construct Traits, Darkvision 60 ft., Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +2, Ref+5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 16, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills: —
Feats: —
Gear: Large Cowbell, 2 Sunrods


Debby

DeadEnded
2009-09-01, 01:01 AM
It's a PC class, not an NPC class.

The problems with the submersion come from one of the players in the game. I personally had no problem with how we had it written in the first place. But it was pointed out to me. I'm changing it back, by the time something is buff enough to 'submerge' my medium minion in water it'll be large and so on.

The same person keeps telling me that without an intelligence score you can't use skills, even untrained. Needless to say this is a problem for the Minion keeping up with the party.

I have taken a pause to look at the SRD. My friend is misinformed on how no int score works, and you are correct, Debihuman. Sorry for the back and forth about it but the SRD was down for a while and I have two 'authoritative' people telling me two different things.

And here's me stuck in the middle trying to find something that just makes sense. I'm changing it and putting in something that will give it a couple of racial bonuses to skills as the clockworker levels. That fixes pretty much all the problems with that yes?

Awaken Construct at 19th level may work. I'll add that in and we'll see how it goes.

There's more I'm thinking but I'll come back and edit this later.

DE~

P.S. Anyone with the Craft Construct and requisite spells could make an Inevitable. All they'd need is the awaken construct spell to make it work correctly.... And a lot of time .... and spare gold lol.

DeadEnded
2009-09-02, 11:08 AM
I was tinkering around today and I thought to myself, "Hey self, let's make some Items." So I sat down and came up with these 5. The first is my own idea inspired by the Captain's gear from Abney Park (link Provided), the airpirate's goggles are adaptations of the bracers of archery, and well the last two are my write ups for Agatha's Coffee Maker....... GOD do I wish it was real. Threw in the links to the Girl Genius comics that it comes from.

Anyway, let me know what you think and I'm sure I'll have more to come as I think about it.

DE~

And here they are:
Breather Mask - Clockworker 12th - 6750gp to create; 13,500gp market
This heavy leather mask with filters and rebreathers covers your nose and mouth which allows you to breath without air. It allows you to survive underwater or through clouds of gasses or poisons. The mask covers your nose taking the 'face' slot, though you may wear a pair of glasses, goggles or lenses with this item without a problem.

Airpirate's Goggles, Greater - Clockworker 8th - 12,500gp to create; 25,000gp market
These Brass bound lenses fit snug to the wearers face with closed sides to protect the wearers eyes from wind, rain and dust. These goggles empower the wearer to use any firearm or crossbow as if he were proficient in it's use. If he already has proficiency with any firearm or crossbow, he gains a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls and a +1 competence bonus on damage rolls whenever using that type of weapon. Both lenses of the goggles must be worn for this to be effective.

Airpirate's Goggles, Lesser - Clockworker 4th - 2500gp to create; 5000 market
These Brass bound lenses fit snug to the wearers face with closed sides to protect the wearers eyes from wind, rain and dust. These goggles empower the wearer to use any firearm or crossbow as if he were proficient in it's use. If he already has proficiency with any firearm or crossbow, he gains a +1 competence bonus on attack rolls whenever using that type of weapon. Both lenses of the goggles must be worn for this to be effective.

For the above three:
http://abneypark.com/market/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=5_15

Agatha's Perfect Cup of Coffee - No level to create, see coffee maker below. - 250gp to create, 500gp market
This Coffee is perfect: the aroma, flavor, aftertaste. Everything. Is. Perfect. As long as it stays hot; the coffee cools very quickly though and in 2+1d6 minutes becomes undrinkable. The user will go on and on about how 'perfect' everything is for a number of minutes equal to the cooling time. Drinking this potion while it's hot gives the user an additional 'immediate' action each round of combat for 4 hours. This does not allow the user to cast more than one 'swift' spell per turn, but it would allow activating items or class abilities that are actions.

Agatha's Perfect Coffee Maker - Clockworker level 13 to build; 50,000gp to create; 100,000 market
This 500 lb. machine makes The Perfect Cup of Coffee. Don't ask how it does it just enjoy. It is capable of making one cup per hour. It requires fresh water, coffee beans, sugar and cream for each cup.

http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20070618
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20070620
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20070622
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20070625

Debihuman
2009-09-02, 01:08 PM
Well, I'm glad you're not being conflicted about Int — any more. It's frustrating because the rules are all in one place other than in the Rules Compendium. Still, monster creation rules are all over the place and it's easy to miss something.

I really love those steampunk items. I've a big fan of Girl Genius and I love the coffee maker. It's great to see cool items that aren't magical in nature.

Debby

DeadEnded
2009-09-02, 08:03 PM
I'm working on a real Airship too. It's going to be expansive and expensive, I'll have the whole thing drawn out from stem to stern. It's just a matter of finding the right costs and such for it. And designing a deck plan.

I've also got a few more ideas for stempunk items as well. Bracers and belts; a spiffy coat and umbrella; and a really big spanner.

If you've got any ideas, throw your hat in, I've found it's really hard to think of everything possible. :)

DeadEnded~

And here are a few:
Bracer of Holding - Class level 9; 500gp to create, 1000gp market
This bracer appears to be an ordinary sort of bracer with three pouches attached to one end. It is constructed of finely crafted leather and brass components, the details are exquisite. The two side pouches will hold about a pint of material, but in fact is a bag of holding and will hold about 1 cubic foot in volume or 10lbs in weight. The larger central pouch can contain up to 4 cubic feet or 40lbs. of material. Even when filled the bracers always weighs 2.5lbs.
While such storage is useful enough, the bracer has an even greater power in addition. When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top. Thus, no digging around and fumbling is ever necessary to find what the Bracer contains. Retrieving any specific item from the bracer is a move action but it does not provoke the attacks of opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/synnister/3854049410/in/pool-steampunkgear

Necklaces of Viewing - Class level 8; 10,000gp to create, 20,000gp market
This pair of necklaces are only useful when worn by two different creatures. Once activated they show whatever is in front of the wearer as though he were standing where the other necklace is. The activated necklace broadcasts both sight and sound from around the other necklace. Both necklaces can be activated at the same time and used for communication between two groups of people. When not activated a Necklace shows an engraved ivory picture of the other wearer.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/madartjewelry/3849560688/in/pool-steampunkgear

Electro Gauntlet - Class level 5; 1500 to create, 3000gp market
Gives shocking weapon property to melee weapon, hand to hand, or touch attacks. This takes up a hand slot.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jenart/3801688372/in/pool-steampunkgear

Clockworker's Coat - Class level 14; 35,000gp cost to create; 70,000gp market
This heavy lined leather coat comes in a variety of styles, whatever happened to be fashionable when the coat was made. The white lined coat can only be worn by a good aligned character; the grey, neutral; and finally the black evil.
Wearing the coat provides the following bonuses:
* +5 Armor bonus to AC
* Spell resistance 18
* +4 resistance bonus on all saving throws
* 200gp per day in parts useable for repairs and constructing, these parts are worthless as anything other than fodder for the clockworker's abilities.
If a white lined coat is worn by an evil character, they immediately gain three permanent negative levels. The reverse is true with respect to a black lined coat and a good aligned character. An evil or good character wearing a grey lined coat or a neutal who wears a white or black lined coat gains two permanent negative levels. Those levels remain as long as the coat is worn and cannot be overcome in anyway (including restoration spells). They are immediately removed if the coat is removed.
Sorry, no pic for a coat, just go find a nice brown duster and you've got it.

DeadEnded
2009-09-03, 07:37 PM
Added in some Items in my previous post. I'm eventually going to have to move them all to the first page. But for now while I'm just working on them they can sit here.

DE~

Lappy9000
2009-09-03, 08:03 PM
From a quick glance, this class seems really awesome. I'd say that it may be a bit dip-worthy 'cause of all the stuff you get at 1st level, but they all pretty much conform together so I doubt it'll be a real issue.

I really like the approach you took to the breakthroughs and programs. It's always awesome to see how different people conceptualize similar ideas.

Expect a bigger and better review when I nab some more time.

Edit: Tip for making your tables look nicer. For the first box, type in:

{table=head] instead of just {table]

Table: Without Header
{table]Thing 1|Thing 2|Thing3
Stuff|+1|+1
Doodads|+2|+2[/table]

Table: With Header
{table=head]Thing 1|Thing 2|Thing3
Stuff|+1|+1
Doodads|+2|+2[/table]

DeadEnded
2009-09-03, 09:43 PM
From a quick glance, this class seems really awesome. I'd say that it may be a bit dip-worthy 'cause of all the stuff you get at 1st level, but they all pretty much conform together so I doubt it'll be a real issue.

I really like the approach you took to the breakthroughs and programs. It's always awesome to see how different people conceptualize similar ideas.

Expect a bigger and better review when I nab some more time.


It's very dip worthy, but the same can be said of all the pathfinder classes. They made the first couple of levels worth taking one or two of. But at the same time they made it so that multiclassing isn't as good as it was in 3.5 because of the abilities you give up by not taking the class farther in.

But yeah, I'd dip in a standard 3.5 game. The little flavor of a fighter with a little clockwork minion at his side or rogue with the Tinker is pretty awesome. And a second level gets you a gun, if you take the breakthrough. One of the few 'taboo' sort of weapons in the D&D game in any form.

Keep an eye on one of the above posts with my character and minion in it. I'll be updating that and posting 'how it handled' as the game I'm in continues.

And thanks about the tables, looks much better now.

Lappy9000
2009-09-03, 09:57 PM
Ah right, duh, I forgot this was Pathfinder. Right, then the first level certainly isn't a problem.

Debihuman
2009-09-04, 01:03 PM
Bracer of Holding should be priced similarly to a Bag of Holding. I think your version is priced too low.

Conversely, I think your Clockworker's Coat is priced WAY too high. You should price the coat and the tools separately. The clockworker's tools are masterwork tools much like a masterwork set of thieves' tools adding a +2 competence bonus and costing 100 gp or if you really want the +4 competence bonus (which I think is too high), then the cost should be 600-800 gp. Furthermore, the coat has no magical properties and should be priced accordingly around 75 gp. See pricing for masterwork items for Pathfinder on page 158 and prices for clothes on page 159. How did you arrive at such an expensive cost?

Debby

DeadEnded
2009-09-04, 01:08 PM
Bracer of Holding should be priced similarly to a Bag of Holding. I think your version is priced too low.

Conversely, I think your Clockworker's Coat is priced WAY too high. You should price the coat and the tools separately. The clockworker's tools are masterwork tools much like a masterwork set of thieves' tools adding a +2 competence bonus and costing 100 gp or if you really want the +4 competence bonus (which I think is too high), then the cost should be 600-800 gp. Furthermore, the coat has no magical properties and should be priced accordingly around 75 gp. See pricing for masterwork items for Pathfinder on page 158 and prices for clothes on page 159. How did you arrive at such an expensive cost?

Debby

The bonus follows the cost for creating magic items with a skill bonus (4 = 1600g) The coat fills with materials every week, that's a major creation spell and it's cost divided by the per week modifier. That turns into 54000g add together divide by two for creation cost and >POOF< expensive stuff. I didn't really care for how much it cost but it's still what you get :-\

If you want to rework the costs and make sure I got them right be my guest, but I think it did that math correctly.

DE~

Debihuman
2009-09-04, 01:37 PM
The bonus follows the cost for creating magic items with a skill bonus (4 = 1600g) The coat fills with materials every week, that's a major creation spell and it's cost divided by the per week modifier. That turns into 54000g add together divide by two for creation cost and >POOF< expensive stuff. I didn't really care for how much it cost but it's still what you get :-\

If you want to rework the costs and make sure I got them right be my guest, but I think it did that math correctly.

DE~

Well, considering that you only get 100 gp worth of materials a week, that doesn't seem like a benefit worth having. At a cost of 54,000 gp--that's about a decade's worth of materials. It's not worth the money by a long shot.

Debby

DeadEnded
2009-09-04, 02:46 PM
Changed the cost of the Coat. Seemed easier than upping the amount of stuff in the coat.

I've got a hunk of changes for the class coming down the pipeline. My DM and I are working out a few of the kinks with some of the breakthroughs and class abilities. And once we're done I'll be making the changes to the class. I'll let everyone know when it happens in yet another post.

DeadEnded~

DeadEnded
2009-09-04, 09:59 PM
Bracer of holding.

Same as one of two items....

hewards handy haversack.

as written it takes up a diffrent slot therby increasing the cost by 50%

cost would then be 3,000 1,500 to create

HOWEVER, a glove of storing would perhaps take more precidance. It allows only up to 20 LBS and ONE item but retrieving it is a free action.

cost 10,000

Although yours is a move action, it does allow you to hold more weight...

I believe the cost would be found somewhere between those two items...(for usefulness ussally increases the cost, gloves are less likely to be pilphered)

No, the bracer is a handy haversack with the weight and volume limit halved. That halves the cost. A backpack doesn't really take a 'slot' as there is no backpack slot in the DMG. My cost stands. Besides, the changing slot thing you have costing more does not make sense in a any way.

"Aha! I want boots that make me fly!" says Bob.
"Well I want a cloak that makes me fly!" says Fred.
"Well I want a belt that makes me fly!" says Jim.

The spells used for each of those is always 'fly'. The feat used is 'Craft Wondrous Item'. The only different cost would be the base Masterwork Item, boots, cloak, and belt. Which is about where your double the cost for different slot falls apart. Masterwork Items do not generally cost so much as to make them that expensive.



Second Item: Necklace of viewing.

I actually agree on the price the only changes i would make would be the pre-req spells (Claraudiance/Clarevoyance) and set a save dc (14 Will) with the a further wording of "if a creature chooses to make this save and saves it can not be affected again for 24 hours".

Putting this change in makes the whole point of the item sort of pointless.



Elctro Gauntlet: already has a verstion in the magic item compedium

it is usable 3/day allows 1d6 extra damage. Increasing this to 1d6 perm for 3,000 is to powerful in my opinion. It essentially allows a +3 wp for 11,000 GP and the cost and savings increase considerably from there, also allows for a +11 Wp without the added cost.


I like the item as is. There's not really a power issue as it takes a slot usually reserved for a pair of something else. It's more expensive than a single +1 to a weapon. And I don't agree with about 75% of the Magic Item Compendium's items or their costs. I think they are either too underpowered for what you pay for them or too overpowered for what you pay for them. Your item is too underpowered for what you pay for it. 11k for 3xday? ridiculous.



Now for the coat.....

actually pretty easy to fix.....

since we can make the argument that the 100 GP per week is actually less effective than boccobs... It would make MORE sense to stat it out as Boccobs..

IE 12,500 Gold to buy and allow 10000 GP worth of stuff...

Cost to create 6,250...

Competance bonus?...= 1600 gold.. combining two effects 26,600

limitations... 100 per week...eh.. just ditch it...allow 10,000 of GP to be added whenever. One stipulation.. none of the "junk" from said coat could be sold to any vendor it is "worthless junk". Once the "junk" has been removed the coat can not produce any more "Junk". "junk" can be added at the appropriate cost.. ( follow same forumla for baccobs ).

On another note... you do realize without the +4 competance bonus the item really is only worth 12,500 and would not take up a slot....

Just my two cents :P

I'm changing the Coat, I was going to do it before you posted but I think it needs a few things. It's all about style and as is the coat doesn't do it right.

DeadEnded~

DeadEnded
2009-09-05, 10:48 AM
Found a pic that comes close to Clank. It's from one of my more favorite games actually.

http://anhso.net/data/50/tomythao/573738/WallpaperRiseOfLegends0513522.jpg

Clank obviously isn't that large yet and doesn't have the gun arm, but I think this is as close as I'm going to find.

Also changed the Coat. Hop back a page and see what I've got.

DeadEnded
2009-09-05, 01:28 PM
I have moved ALL of the items I've made that were scattered throughout the thread to the first page, they're a couple posts down.

DeadEnded~

letdragonslie
2009-09-06, 01:00 AM
{Scrubbed}

Mangles
2009-09-07, 12:49 PM
still following this with great interest, just in case you were wondering

stas
2009-09-08, 01:44 PM
Hello all,

My first post here! :smallsmile:

The item Bracer of Holding is too cheap in my opinion and needs to follow the same base price and function as the handy haversack for which it is based. The haversack is the cheapest E.D. and there should be none cheaper. The HH is already under pricing review by our group which Deadended is in and we all agree that it is too cheap for what it does.

The necklace of Viewing needs a point of clarification added that it only functions on willing creatures or it needs a save added.

The ElectroGauntlet needs some clarification such that it cannot function on a magic item or that it overrides the properties of the magic item when activated. To make the cost work out easily add the normally required +1 enhancement to attack and damage and price it out at 8k even swap. This does not have to be magical in nature but should follow the pricing for the equivalent item. This is still a potent item as you can apply it to any melee weapon you use.

The clockworkers coat should cost 75k and only function for a clockworker just like the base robe.

All in all this is really starting to take shape but in looking at the class you have invested much in the minion and that may come at the cost of survivabililty (if that is even a word). The flavor is great but some of the mechanics need to be tweaked.

Also items do have slot affinities that change the cost of the item ie dex tied to gloves, movement to shoes etc. The change in base price would apply even if you moved from an unslotted space to a slotted space just because of how odd it is.

More to come later.

Stas

DeadEnded
2009-09-10, 06:28 AM
Most important thing I'm going to post today: My motherboard has blown. It hasn't killed my computer just a pair of fans and the board itself. I haven't lost anything I just can't access it. So, I'll only be posting sporadically until I can get the $250 to get it fixed. Don't worry though, I am still working on this and will be posting changes and updates as I often as I can.

DeadEnded~

Now onto replies :smallsmile:


Hello all,

My first post here! :smallsmile:
Welcome to the Forum Stas


The item Bracer of Holding is too cheap in my opinion and needs to follow the same base price and function as the handy haversack for which it is based. The haversack is the cheapest E.D. and there should be none cheaper. The HH is already under pricing review by our group which Deadended is in and we all agree that it is too cheap for what it does.
The Bracer has a smaller amount of space, and does follow the haversack. If you recheck the block it's halved space and weight limits. That would half the price. I've never had a problem with the pricing on the haversack.


The necklace of Viewing needs a point of clarification added that it only functions on willing creatures or it needs a save added.
I'm going to change the necklace to not require spells to make. This is more like a video camera, point and shoot, as opposed to a crystal ball. It requires that someone be wearing it and turn it on before you can see anything.


The ElectroGauntlet needs some clarification such that it cannot function on a magic item or that it overrides the properties of the magic item when activated. To make the cost work out easily add the normally required +1 enhancement to attack and damage and price it out at 8k even swap. This does not have to be magical in nature but should follow the pricing for the equivalent item. This is still a potent item as you can apply it to any melee weapon you use.
Not working on magic items would work, but I don't want to give it the +1 enhance, as it's not magic and doesn't make it easier to hit and damage with a weapon. It's like running a current through a metal rod. Touch the rod to something and it get zapped.


The clockworkers coat should cost 75k and only function for a clockworker just like the base robe.
Having discussed this I have to agree the 5k for the gp of parts per day is worth the 5k of cost.


All in all this is really starting to take shape but in looking at the class you have invested much in the minion and that may come at the cost of survivabililty (if that is even a word). The flavor is great but some of the mechanics need to be tweaked.
Welcome to beta testing, please pick up your lab coat and goggles on your way in. :smallbiggrin:
But seriously, if you're taking a fair amount of breakthroughs that help you and your minion the survivability is about where it should be. If you're taking just things to help you, your minion will suffer, if you take things that just help the minion your character will suffer. It's all a matter of what/how you want to play.


Also items do have slot affinities that change the cost of the item ie dex tied to gloves, movement to shoes etc. The change in base price would apply even if you moved from an unslotted space to a slotted space just because of how odd it is.

Stas
This has always perplexed me as a player and DM. Why would a magic effect be limited by what I can put it on? It's like saying you can't wear a watch because the 'wrist' slot says only bracelets go there. Or you can't wear barrettes because the head is for hats only.

This seems really silly to me and not a balance issue at all, it's more a 'style' issue than anything. I mean let's face it if you want to wear something that does an effect it's not like there isn't someone out there who can make it for you. No matter what it is. Sure your piece will be uber rare, but like I said the whole boots, belt, cloak thing the only change is the item. The spells are the same, the cost to create is the same. I see no reason why there has to be a market cost increase just because.

I'm thinking of starting another thread on this issue. If there isn't one already. But as my computer is down maybe someone else could do the the favor....


still following this with great interest, just in case you were wondering

Glad you're still with us Mangles, if you've got any ideas I'd love to hear them.

Thanks everyone for all the help.
DeadEnded~

DeadEnded
2009-09-10, 06:18 PM
I have a whole lot of changes and rewrites coming down the pipe very soon. Some are just tweaks to things already in the class, others are complete rewrites to abilities and breakthroughs.

SO keep your eyes peeled to this thread and I'll have what I've got posted, probably by next monday or tuesday, depending.

DeadEnded~

Debihuman
2009-09-10, 11:01 PM
I'm looking forward to your rewrites. Best of luck to you.

Debby

DeadEnded
2009-09-11, 09:20 AM
Ok, so I lied. It really wasn't my fault I had time today to update everything. Blame it on the crappy weather my area is having.

Now, onto the 'what's changed list'

Complete Update on the Clockwork Minion. Set the CR per level of it and how it gets its ability increases.

Complete Update on the Strange Contraption class ability and addition of the Epiphany ability.

Total rewrite / Update on how the Tinker functions.

Tweaked Breakthroughs regular and advanced:
Better Bullet
Explosive
Flame Thrower
Frost Ray
Lightning Gun

Big Bang
Grenade Launcher
Extra Appendages
Rapid Fire

Totally Rewritten Breakthroughs regular and advanced:
Firearm(Rifle)
Firearm(Pistol)
Energy Weapon(Rifle)
Energy Weapon(Pistol)

I think everything we worded much better for clarity, and is also much more balanced overall against any other comparable class.

P.E.A.C.H. it out for me and let me know your thoughts. If you find something off that I've missed please let me know what it is and how you would fix it.

Thanks again to everyone helping me on this.
DeadEnded~

Debihuman
2009-09-11, 09:52 AM
Actually, level 10 on the the clockworker chart seems wrong. Does he get both an Advanced Breakthrough and a regular Breakthrough or can he simply use an Advanced Breakthrough in place of a regular Breakthrough? Giving out both seems excessive. Just change the comma to an "or" and that should fix it.

You still have dead levels at 5 and 15.

Also, I think you make it too cheap to create tinkers. They shouldn't be free.

Just my two cents.

Debby

DracoDei
2009-09-11, 10:00 AM
The AC bonus should probably ALSO apply when not wearing ANY armor.

DeadEnded
2009-09-11, 10:32 AM
The AC bonus should probably ALSO apply when not wearing ANY armor.

Thanks for catching that typo.
DE~

DeadEnded
2009-09-11, 02:47 PM
Actually, level 10 on the the clockworker chart seems wrong. Does he get both an Advanced Breakthrough and a regular Breakthrough or can he simply use an Advanced Breakthrough in place of a regular Breakthrough? Giving out both seems excessive. Just change the comma to an "or" and that should fix it.

You still have dead levels at 5 and 15.

Also, I think you make it too cheap to create tinkers. They shouldn't be free.

Just my two cents.

Debby

If you read the explanation text block for advanced breakthrough it says you can can take advanced breakthroughs in place of regular ones, it doesn't give you an extra one.

I have NO idea what to put in at 5 and 15. If you've got something I'm all ears.

There isn't a cost for making Tinkers listed. Mostly because it's already covered, they are basically a modified Homunculus. Costs would be the same for making more of them.

DE~

Debihuman
2009-09-11, 03:36 PM
I was merely being compulsive-obsessive about the chart being correct without going back and re-reading the text. Sheer unmitigated laziness on my part. :smallsmile:

You were changing a lot of things and I wanted this to be clearer. Please delete the comma and change it to an "or" on the chart.

Give me a few days to think about levels 5 and 15. I might be able to think of something.

Debby

DeadEnded
2009-09-12, 05:31 PM
I'm changing how the breakthroughs are listed, I'm just giving some of them level reqs. instead of normal / advanced idea. It'll be easier in the long run and considering I've already got some breakthroughs with other breakthroughs as prereqs it makes sense.

So the chart will change and so will the breakthrough spoiler.

DE~

DeadEnded
2009-09-13, 08:29 PM
So my gaming group is really adamant about not allowing the minion to use any magic items, other than weapons, it seems.

I and one member don't see the problem with the minion using them as they cost the usual for equipping any sort of follower. Money, time to find/make/etc. and generally makes sense for something humanoid to be able to use.

I've done the math on the minion half a million ways by this point and you end up with an AC of about 40 (give or take) if you put every penny you can into your minions equipment at 20th level. Then there's the cost of equipping yourself, another hefty sum.

Keep in mind that any other character can spend just as much money making sure that AC of 40 doesn't mean much because they hit on a 1.

So, I pose the question to you my fellow playgrounders, what are your thoughts? Do the math on your own and see what you get and let me know. I'm not going to post anything I've done on this as I want your math and don't want what you do biased by anything I may or may not have done with my math.

Please and Thank You in advance.
DeadEnded~

Debihuman
2009-09-13, 09:40 PM
Are you sure that all your AC bonuses stack to get AC 40? I'd really need to see the math on it. I know in 3.5 stacking limits the AC bonuses, but I'm not sure that Pathfinder works the same way.

Debby

DeadEnded
2009-09-13, 09:48 PM
I'm not giving my math, I want to see everyone else's math. My math was just using a specific set of magic items one of my group sent me. I want to see what everyone else can do. It's a litmus<sp> test against what I had built and what he had built.

So the whole point of this is not giving you my math. Or his math for that matter. I don't want any bias at all in this. I want to see what every else can throw at this to up it's AC, Attack, etc. to make the minion as formidable as possible.

Debihuman
2009-09-13, 09:55 PM
So if I give my minion something that yours doesn't have, how does that help? You are only comparing apples to oranges in that case. Without knowing what items you and he had, there is no way to compare the numbers. Did you even spend the same amount of money?

How the heck do you determine how much money a 20th-level PC has? I assume that you are using the chart on page 399 in which a 20th level PC has 880,000 gp. It's an artificial starting point at best.

Every campaign is different. Some are rich in treasure and others are more stingy. So, no not all minions are going to be the same. I think this is a baseless and stuipid exercise in futilty.

Edit: See page Pathfinder page 461 armor and shields can't have enhancement bonuses more than +5.

Edit 2: See page 461: A suit of armor cannot have an effective bonus (enhancement plus special ability bonus equivelents) higher than +10.

Debby

DeadEnded
2009-09-13, 10:05 PM
So if I give my minion something that yours doesn't have, how does that help? You are only comparing apples to oranges in that case. Without knowing what items you and he had, there is no way to compare the numbers. Did you even spend the same amount of money?

How the heck do you determine how much money a 20th-level PC has? Every campaign is different. Some are rich in treasure and others are more stingy. So, no not all minions are going to be the same. I think this is a baseless and stuipid exercise in futilty.

Debby

I want you to give your minion anything you want. If it's not something my minion had: bully for you.

Page 135 of the DMG has the total treasure a character of 20th level should have. 760,000 gold pieces.

Every Minion is going to be different because people are going to put more emphasis on different things. One may go for Dex to use guns. Another may go for Str to use blades. Another may turn his into a literal tank with enough AC and armor to walk through hell w/o a scratch (though I'd be willing to be the actual Character wouldn't survive). But that's not really the point.

My point is that someone has said you can push the AC so high that a fighter of comparable level with comparable levels of equipment couldn't hit it. I want to see what everyone else can do. Cause I don't think it's possible.

Good Luck building your minions. I appreciate anyone who helps on this as it will put another problem to bed (hopefully).
DeadEnded~

Debihuman
2009-09-13, 10:15 PM
Again see my earlier post. You can't have Armor with more than +10 AC unless you are breaking the rules (again see Pathfinder page 461). So again I'm asking you how you get AC +40? Because I cannot figure it out even a little bit regardless of how much money is spent.

Edit: Are you using Pathfinder rules or D&D 3.5 rules for the amount of money? Because Pathfinder gives 20th level PCs more money.

Edit 2:

Sample 20th level Clockwork Minion:
AC: 27 ( +4 Dex, -3 Size, +15 Natural Armor)

AC 27 + 10 max AC enhancement bonus that you can have equals AC 37 not AC 40. Am I missing something here?

Debby

DeadEnded
2009-09-14, 10:17 AM
Again see my earlier post. You can't have Armor with more than +10 AC unless you are breaking the rules (again see Pathfinder page 461). So again I'm asking you how you get AC +40? Because I cannot figure it out even a little bit regardless of how much money is spent.

Edit: Are you using Pathfinder rules or D&D 3.5 rules for the amount of money? Because Pathfinder gives 20th level PCs more money.

Edit 2:

Sample 20th level Clockwork Minion:
AC: 27 ( +4 Dex, -3 Size, +15 Natural Armor)

AC 27 + 10 max AC enhancement bonus that you can have equals AC 37 not AC 40. Am I missing something here?

Debby

We're using 3.5 for now, the group is working toward getting more money in the mix to bring us inline with pathfinder.

And you're missing A LOT.
AC 27 +8 Armor (Bracers of armor), +5 Deflection (ring), +5 Natural Armor (amulet), belt of Dex + X .... All this adds up to more than 40. I was using a specific list from someone else that gave me 40.

Remember the max market you can spend on any one item is 200,000gp. so the +10 Armor doesn't fly.

But having gone back through all of the posts I saw one for adding a magic item as a breakthrough. Considering how adamant my group is about it, I may have to use that instead of trying to figure out just how crazy/buffed up this may get.

DE~

Debihuman
2009-09-14, 08:39 PM
Ahh, I see, Grasshopper. It's not just armor that your group is buying but as many magic items that increase armor class too.

In that case, they can go crazy. Why is AC 40 a problem for you? You are expecting that the 20th level villians won't have equally good stuff? Dragon, Vampiric Mature Adult Red CR 20 from Draconomicon has AC 37.

Are you expecting to start these characters at level 20?

Debby

DeadEnded
2009-09-15, 08:51 AM
I have no idea what we're going to be facing then, at present the game is 6th level. A really good place to start beta for anything. Most of the abilities of any class really start to show at that level.

But everyone in my group goes to the top end and looks at what it can do at then. Then there's the CR / level balance issue for the minion. It needs to sit around 15-16 CR to keep it on par with the other minion in the game: a druid's animal companion.

Sure pushing the AC up to crazy amounts is possible, but at the same time any character can do it, any cohort can do it, and any druid can buy the same crap for it's animal companion.

And since we are basing the Clockworker's Minion on the animal companion and everyone seems to think the AC can get pushed a little high on the minion I thought I'd work out a Wolf Druid Companion for comparison. As you can see I don't see any problem with the minion getting magic items at all anymore. Not even a "let's think about this" sort of deal. The animal companion is actually quite a bit better in regards to what it can do because it's alive and has an Int Score. That gives it actual skill points and feats on top of it's racial bonus feats.

Wolf Druid Companion
Large Animal
HD = 14d8 + 56 (119hp average)
Init = 10
Spd = 50'
AC = 51 (10 +9 armor +2 shield +6 dex +19 natural +5 Deflect -1 size)
BA/Grp =10-5/
Att = Bite 19 (1d8+10)
F-Att = Bite +19 +14 (1d8+10)
Sp/Rch = 10'/10'
SA = Trip
SQ = Low-light Vision, Scent, Improved Evasion
Save = F 13 R 15 W 5
Abil = Str 31 Dex 23 Con 19 Int 2 Wis 12 Cha 6
Skills = Stealth 13 Perception 7 Survival 6
Feats = Track, Weapon Focus (Bite), Improved Initiative, Skill Focus(Stealth), Light Armor Prof, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Multiattack

Mithril Chain Shirt as Barding +5(+9total), Belt of Str & Dex +4, Amulet Natural Armor +5, Ring of protection +5, Ring of Force Shield

You can do this with the Druid's animal companion. OK, reworking the 'style' of the rings to fit a wolf paw; if they don't resize like 99% of magic items; may cost a tiny bit base material CONSTRUCTION costs if you have someone else make it, but it still amounts to an AC of 51. And the Druid can take all the Item creation feats and Craft skills as well. That equals 1/2 the cost of the magic items.

The animal companion also gets feats for free, and actual skill points on top of it's racials, which would need to be worked out for Pathfinder but I have them set at a +3 for each skill which seemed about right for a conversion.

The minion gets a bit more strength and can use a weapon, but has NO feats without the character using a very limited breakthrough, which means it usually can't wear that armor. To use the +8 Bracers of Armor costs 40k more than that armor market. Even halving both for item creation feats it still costs more.

I'm more than willing to call this one done and put it to bed. But I'll see what my group thinks of this new bit of information.

DeadEnded~

Battlesong72
2009-09-16, 12:19 PM
Also my first post here, I had a bunch of issues with the spam killer thing. To let everyone know where my post is coming from, I am the DM for the game this thing is being tested in.

As for the Magic Item problem: The problem isn't so much that the AC can go through the roof, it's the fact that everything else does as well. I sent this as an e-mail to DE due to the registration issues I was having, but now I will repeat it here. The problem is the AC does not live in a vacuum. The wolf he created still only attacks at +19 for a whopping 1d8+10 damage. Even if you take the Dire Tiger as the companion, with the +4 belt it attacks at +23 for 2d4+11. Without magic items, the minion is attacking at +26 for 3d6+13 damage, with the +4 belt this jumps to +28 for 3d6+15 damage. Let's not forget the minion is a construct (which offers huge benefits), and, through breakthroughs, you can add any combination of: ranged weapons, breath weapon equivelancies, extra arms, burrowing, flight, extra movement, DR, swim speed, mount use, and energy resistance (I may be forgetting something) - most with no or minimal cost. Now you want to add other magic items on top of this. I barely see the minion as balanced now, let alone adding more to it. I let other things stand as they are to play-test.

Battlesong

DeadEnded
2009-09-16, 01:09 PM
Welcome to the forum Battlesong, nice to see you finally getting on here :smallbiggrin:

Now for the reply:
The Minion is SUPPOSED to be above the CR of an animal companion. The Clockworker doesn't get spells, wildshape, Venom Immunity, 1000 faces (Change Self), or Timeless Body. The spells and wildshape being the big things. This wolf also gets feats; a crap ton in the grand scheme of things actually. That more than makes up for the increased strength of the minion, at least according to the 3.5 MM. The animal companion taps out at about CR 14-15 with the Druid bonuses. This wolf if run correctly probably won't get hit at all, and still do it's damage every turn with spring attack.

To compensate for the lack of spells and wildshape the CR of the minion should be around 17-18.

The Clockworker picks up instead of all that: the breakthroughs(10), which greatly determine what his and his minions' capabilities are; the Minion itself; the ability to repair the minion at 2g and one minute of time per HP; a bonus on craft skills & disable device with the Tinker; and 3 item creation feats free along with the ability to use them. The breakthroughs are small in number and VERY limited in scope. Most deal damage of some sort or create / modify an item only the clockworker or minion can use. And they all cost money to create. I've also set the prices VERY high for creating all of the clockworker items. If I went back to the PHB, DMG, and Pathfinder book for examples, I would be cutting the price by 2/3 for nearly everything, as per the crafting rules.

The Druid does most of his abilities for free, there are a few spells with costly material components or just a straight GP cost. That means he's more likely to have money to spend on buying spiffy gear for himself and his animal companion. There are gloves or bracer that can increase the wolf's attack by +5 and add any of the weapon abilities to it as a double weapon.

The minion will get hit. A lot. AC of 25 at clockwork 20th level and it's rather pitiful reflex save pretty much assure that the Clockworker will be spending more time fixing his minion than adventuring with the party.

Without any of it's spiffy gear the wolf has an AC of 28, still better than the minion. Sure the attack on the minion is greater, it has more HD. HD = Base Attack Bonus. The minion out strengths the Animal by 9, but lacks in dex by 2. Also no feats on the minion, which means no real shooting into melee, unless your party doesn't mind getting shot at. No dodge or mobility let alone spring attack. No weapon focus. No to a lot of stuff that makes a really good combatant in the game a really good combatant.

Everything that makes the minion viable has to be specifically taken as a breakthrough. Sure some are going to help the PC as well as the Minion, but not everything, DR? minion only, Swim speed? minion only, Spider Legs? sure you can use it as a mount, big deal, by the time you can take it you NEED a mount or some other way of traveling around. And if you take only things to help the minion your character is going to suffer greatly in combat and dungeons in general.

You can't put all your eggs in one basket. It doesn't work for anything. Especially PC survival.

DeadEnded~

Battlesong72
2009-09-16, 04:00 PM
The problem, again, is the fact that the entirety of the thing is going to go over cr 18, maybe even past 20 allowing magic items. I just realized you rewrote the blade entry to allow any sword/axe. In this case you can now have the minion using a huge greatsword in combat, this moves the attack damage to 4d6+19, thus propelling the damage capacity even further up the chart. Comparitively, exactly how many items are there that increase the attack/damage for animals, let alone the damage dice. Yes, I take into account you MAY not take all of the breakthroughs for the minion (although I argue that not taking the majority of them there is not wise), which is why I use the phrase "any combination of". But let's also look at the fact that a number of the breakthroughs can be applied to both the character and the minion. Let's take into account, the fact that the thing has near perfect spell resistance and can have heavy dr applied to it, this is the tradeoff for the low AC. Your same wolf can be shut down by almost any caster without breaking a sweat. You have to look at tradeoffs.

Debihuman
2009-09-16, 04:15 PM
Here's what the clockwork minion gets now:



Every level after the first adds +1 HD to your minion.
Every even level you apply the following bonuses
+1 Natural Armor
+1 To Strength and Dexterity
Base Attack Bonus as per Construct in MM (3/4)
Size bonuses and Penalties as per MM/DMG.


You can limit the progression to every other level instead of every level and that will significantly slow the progression of the clockwork minion.

Debby

letdragonslie
2009-09-16, 04:20 PM
Energy Weapon (Rifle)- You've learned to create a sustainable power source for an energy rifle for you or your clockwork minion. This weapon costs 850gp to create for either of you. This weapon has a range increment of 125’; damage 6d8; Crit x2; is not magic but does not work in an anti-magic zone. This weapon uses the 'rifle' weapon proficiency to fire. You must have the Firearm (Rifle) breakthrough and be 10th level to take this Breakthrough.

IVe said this a THOUSAND TIMES

WHAT IS WRONG WITH USING THE RULES OUT OF THE BOOK. for futureistic wp's?

the damage is THAT of the "anti matter rifle"

this wp can ONLY BE FIRED ONCE per round. and takes a MOVE ACTION to reload.

AGAIN WHY DOES THIS NOT FIT THE 3d6 energy RIFLE out of the book?

why does it fit the ANTI MATTER RAY OF DEATH??????

again this should be the BIGGEST NON-ISSUE with the class.

range 100' Damge 3d6 Damage type ---

AS PER DMG.

Battlesong72
2009-09-16, 05:12 PM
Debihuman,

Actually he rewrote the minion to get the bumps to ac and stats at every even level. All of the numbers we are working with now are with the Minion basically getting +10 to armor and +10 to both strength and dex. If we had let the thing go with the numbers going up every level, it got epic by the end. Even with the limitations of every other level, this thing is brutal, but it needs to be.

Battlesong72
2009-09-16, 10:51 PM
Dragons,

Switch to decaf.:smalltongue:

As I noted in our conversation, we have reached a compromise on the energy weapons. I am sure DE will post soon.

DeadEnded
2009-09-16, 11:09 PM
I agree with Battlesong, Dragons switch to decaf. :smallbiggrin:

I'm rewriting the e-rifle as per the conversation I had with Battlesong earlier today.

I'm rewriting the minion as per the conversation I had with Battlesong earlier today.

I'm adding in a breakthrough to allow a magic item as per the previous post on page one which falls inline with the minion changes. -- Thanks Mangles

I am really really sick and may throw up, and the drugs I just took to help me sleep are keeping me up and making me loopy :tongue:

IF there are any problems, syntax, grammar, spelling, just plain screwups msg me and let me know and I'll fix them. LIke I said - seriously sick over here.

DE~

letdragonslie
2009-09-17, 04:34 AM
yea decaf.. Funny guys... when was the last time you saw me with DECAF?!

ha.

anyway, i heard the change to the wp through battlesong and even said its not a bad fix. much better than what is posted.

as far as magic items goes.....

The major problem i see with the minion as written is simply this, by adding anything that increases it's statistics it becomes well above what it should be. (I do however have multiple diffrent solutions at the end.)

it is already 4-6 times greater than a dire tiger animal companion of equal level.

Statistical breakdown~~

Dire tiger out of MM1 is a cr 8(CR 7 by pathfinder rules) add two hit dice and two nat armor link and share spells, what it would obtain from a druid of level 20 it becomes a cr 10 ( as per MM1 the cr is actually a cr 8 2/3 per animal advancement) i give it a 10 just to keep things simple So in essance i am rating "empathic link" and "share spells", and evastion for a cr 1 1/3 (pretty fair... considering the most powerful thing there is share spells which it can not always take advantage of, and does not always gain the benifit of, and also detracts from the class of the druid and uses resources.) The major reason why it is a cr 10 however and not higher is because most of it's sp abilities are on par with a lower cr monster. View a cr 12 monster vs the dire tiger. yes the dire tiger gets some decent hp, and some feats but overall the abilites are lacking. examples of cr 12 Ghaele, immune to many things protective aura's etc etc, young adult red dragons(breath wp frieghtful presance, spell casting, sr),displacer beast pack lord(control others of its kind), ice devil(outsider traits immunities) Simply put dire animals lack in speacil qualities to push them into the higher cr levels.

with that said adding multiple cr10's to obtain an ECL of 16 we can find the minions equivalency

Calculations to cr 16

two cr 10 = cr 12

four cr 10 = cr 14

eight cr 10 = cr 16 (eschewed quite a bit as many lesser cr's are rarely ever on the power level of the higher cr rating).

The damage potential, ac, immunities, saves, etc of the minion is such that at higher levels (lvl 20) the minion's statistics are sitting around a 14 - 16 (thats by everyones calculations) but by most considered 15.5 to 16. Even at cr 14 it is four times greater than the dire tiger (singles are always more powerful than multiples example 1 5th lvl wizard vs 4 1st level wizards... per rules an equal ECL...fireball anyone?). if rated at cr 16 it is considered above 8times more powerful than the druids animal companion.

and thats the starting point.

I understand the minion is suppose to be "the major part of the class" and that it should be greater than an animal companion. But I do not like the idea that the minion is sitting on par and in some ways greater than alot of the classes as is. The minion is not the class, it is a class ability. I think the clockworker should get higher level abilities, the clock work minion should be toned down a bit, and then allowed to use equipment like an animal companion. If that is not acceptable....

the clockworker stays where it is, the minion stays where it is, but the minion does not get equipment.

by allowing the minion to obtain a "magical item" it opens the door for it to possibly gain a +10 wp or the equivalent. If that is allowed the damage potential goes off the charts, well above the accepted damage potential.

the same could be said for just about any item, examples:

Battle song told me that the highest armor it can obtain now is at 25, If allowing magic bracers that can potentially become a 31 an AC of 31 is on part with a cr of 15 that is a 5 point jump from cr 10. Combine that with the higher attack rating of the minion and the higher damage, the magic immunities, stunning immunities, etc etc. and it pushes the rated cr higher.

Adding a cloak of resistance does the same thing. it pushes its one poor save to a good save, and the few vulernabilites it does have (poor fort save vs disinigration(which it is not any more vulernable to than a rogue or wizard of equal HD)) now becomes a good save, again pushing the cr higher than it is.

adding a belt of any kind in turn accomplishes the same effect, all the way down the line. in fact in an example i gave battle song if the minion were allowed a belt of str it would push its attack rating to a cr 19. (three cr higher than the 16). and that was just one item, not to mention what it does to the damage.

simply put, adding items increases a creatures cr rating. when designing monsters the damage potential, armor class values, and saving throw values, are calculated after you take into consideration magic items.

if the end goal is to have the minion sit at 16 and you want to add items, that means that the minion has to be created at a lower rating than 16 with the anticipation of items being added. items of an NPC typically account for 3 to 4 cr depending on the amount of treasure it obtains, because this is an extention of the class and the major ability it could be safe to assume that it would obtain magic equal to half a character. That would put it in the 4 cr range, however, if an added limiation on the items it can obtain were stipulated "can not use activated magic items" (as that would make sense) the CR would drop to 3. It would gain the benifit of the higher bonus items due to the increased gold, but not be able to use as many items.

Note about treasure NPC to CR calculation, and how I derived to a 3 CR for the minion (this is taking into account the fact the clockworker class needs to spend more money than other classes. NPC's of equal level typically have 25% GP than a char of equal level. that 25% accounts for up to 4 CR in fact it is recommended by the DMG and pathfinder that if the party faces an NPC and obtains its treasure. the party should encounter at least two other equal cr's before facing the NPC to account for the extra treasure. another example of the increase in CR are dragons. they typicall have "tripple standard". the minion can obtain up to 50% but because of the depleted resources of the clockworker class i figure it should equal to the 4 or 3 cr desired.)

otherwise it can be stated as a cr 16 but in no way should it have items, even as a breakthrough it poses the problem of increasing CR.

I Do have an alternative solution.

I would not be opposed to it obtaining speacil abilities that would be on par with the cr that you are trying to accomplish. Which could be made in the form of breakthroughs. However, i do not believe these should increase the overall ac, attack, damage, magic immunities, or saving throw values. as an increase in any of these deviates the CR. Also due to the fact as a construct it has inherant immunities(immune sneak attack, crit hits, stunning, etc etc..) they would be picked up slightly later than other monsters of appropriate cr.

These abilities are shared commonly by many creatures of equal cr which all conform to the attack rating, save ratings, damage ratings.

an example of an ability that a creature of equal CR typically has that does not increase any of the above is evastion, uncanny dodge, faster movement, Damage reduction (if it is damage reduction/-- it should be low, where damage reduction/magic should be quite high at higher levels), Low SR(5+HD) at higher levels(as constructs are typically immune to all magic anyway) just to name a few. They are all on the power level of the CR that is being attempted but do not increase any of the abilities beyond what they should be. The major trick is going to be determining which abilities it should obtain and when, and to ensure it does not "obtain all abilities", as no monster has every ability (excluding pun pun). A fairly simple converstion would be to look at monsters of equal cr to see which abilities fit the flavor, and power level.

Another note, I would say that the AC should probrobly be increased and the attack and damage lessend so that no one statistic is above one or the other by a factor of 2 CR. What i mean by that is if the saves are cr 15 than the ac or attack can be raised to cr 17. No one stat should raised higher than 19 and no one stat lowered below a 14. they should all average out to excatly 16. There should never be a cr 7 to allow for a cr 29 to come to the conclustion that the cr is now somewhere dead center of those two numbers.

Generic example

If ac is a cr 12 but attack is a cr 22 something is more than likely off. If the ac is cr 15 but the attack is cr 17. more than likely the monster has been built correctly.

hope this all comes out co-herant

~~ Dragons

Mangles
2009-09-17, 05:11 AM
Whooo I'm helping. I guess that solves your problem of items or no items for the minion to wear. Can this be applied to the tinker as well or no?

letdragonslie
2009-09-17, 05:46 AM
Whooo I'm helping. I guess that solves your problem of items or no items for the minion to wear. Can this be applied to the tinker as well or no?

my understanding of the tinker is that it is no more powerful than a magic item that provides a competence bonus.

If it is compared to a familier it is underpowered. If it has combat value, intellegence, or perform actions. I would seriously believe the class would then be becoming severly over-powered. The tinker provides a 'small bonus" to something the class already has. (something im not opposed to) However, if the tinker starts walking around with energy rifles, we have problems :smalleek:

letdragonslie
2009-09-17, 06:39 AM
Ahh, I see, Grasshopper. It's not just armor that your group is buying but as many magic items that increase armor class too.

In that case, they can go crazy. Why is AC 40 a problem for you? You are expecting that the 20th level villians won't have equally good stuff? Dragon, Vampiric Mature Adult Red CR 20 from Draconomicon has AC 37.

Are you expecting to start these characters at level 20?

Debby

I realize this is an old post but i wish to clerify where the gaming group is going with the AC figures in the 40's and attack bonses.

Yes the vampiric mature adult red dragon CR 20 will have an ac of 37.

However that Vampirice mature adult red dragon CR 20 is also equal to one character of cr 20. Not one class ability.

for all intensive purposes the minion is just that. A class ability.

Pathfinder has a guidline for ac, attack, saves, and damage per CR. as stated out it is at around a 14-16. with the addition of magic items the minion in and of itself approaches CR 20. The minion is not the class it is a class ability. While it is the primary ability. therefore should be quite strong. it should not be the same CR as another party member. as it is only part of a class, not the class in its entirety. Please see previous post for statistical breakdown on magic items and how it effects the minion and how it compares to a druids animal companion.

DeadEnded
2009-09-17, 07:42 AM
yea decaf.. Funny guys... when was the last time you saw me with DECAF?!

Generic example
If ac is a cr 12 but attack is a cr 22 something is more than likely off. If the ac is cr 15 but the attack is cr 17. more than likely the monster has been built correctly.

hope this all comes out co-herant

~~ Dragons
I'm not going to quote your whole post, coherent but much too long to quote everything for two bits of feedback.

Adding one magic item per size over small amounts to 3. And that's only if you take that breakthrough 3 times. That cuts your total breakthroughs to 7, still a lot but it does keep the character from doing a number of other spiffy things.

The addition of a single magic item, whatever it is, doesn't push the CR as much as you think. Go back to the 3.5 monster manual p. 294, at best it's +2 to the CR but is more likely a +1 by the chart for most of the time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You realize that a CR 13 Iron Golem has a BAB of 12 and an AC of 30 right?
That kind of throws your whole example off.

And that's the problem with using the pathfinder rules for building monsters. What you really need to do is look at everything through the 3.5 lens and then add the pathfinder filter after. You get monsters that actually fit the CR you are going for as opposed to WAY over/under powered for their CR.

Also, I'm kind of serious about the Decaf thing. Ask me later in person and I'll tell you why. It's kind of important.

DeadEnded~

P.S. I'm rewriting Edmund and Clank with the new rules updates, he'll be posted and ready for Saturday's game.

DeadEnded
2009-09-17, 08:24 AM
At present the tinker is MUCH more underpowered than a familiar, even with it's abilities.

It does not get an attack, although it could Homunculus do and it's a poison bite attack.

Even with all the abilities the tinker gets for being 'familiar like' it doesn't stand a chance on it's own with no real ability to attack, other than being able to stealth very well.

It getting to use any particular magic item doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things either. At best it's walking around with a pot of cure light wounds to force feed to a downed person, or if you put it's skill points into UMD you can give it a cure wand. With it's diminutive size it can't carry more than one of them. It's more than likely to get blasted into next weeks so it's really a non-issue.

DE~

Debihuman
2009-09-17, 09:21 AM
May I request that the clockworker class on the first page be updated? It's difficult to go through pages of text to see where changes have been made. The first post still shows that the clockwork minion gets 1 HD every level, and I hadn't realized that had changed.

Thanks,
Debby

letdragonslie
2009-09-17, 09:26 AM
At present the tinker is MUCH more underpowered than a familiar, even with it's abilities.

It does not get an attack, although it could Homunculus do and it's a poison bite attack.

Even with all the abilities the tinker gets for being 'familiar like' it doesn't stand a chance on it's own with no real ability to attack, other than being able to stealth very well.

It getting to use any particular magic item doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things either. At best it's walking around with a pot of cure light wounds to force feed to a downed person, or if you put it's skill points into UMD you can give it a cure wand. With it's diminutive size it can't carry more than one of them. It's more than likely to get blasted into next weeks so it's really a non-issue.

DE~

first iron golem sorta proves my point... example

average high attack = Slam +23 = CR 14
AC = 30 = CR 14
Average high damage 42 = CR 10
Breath WP DC 19 = CR 10

(10 + 10 + 14 + 14) / 4 = CR 12

Pathfinder rules state monsters in 3.5 are minus 1 CR

Iron Golem CR per 3.5 = 13 minus 1 CR 12

pretty spot on to me....want to try another monster? i've done this with a very large portion of them. the only one's where it breaks down are dragons because dragons are listed at full cr compared to the minus 1 in 3.5... for obvious reasons....

and if the tinker can have ranks in UMD, and is diminutive it just became much more powerful than any familer i ever had. in fact i would want one as a wizard in just about EVERY game... a stealth tinker with a staff of power anyone?

if the tinker only gives a bonus (much like a psi crystal) it is complete fair and balanced. when it starts to gain skill points, and the ability to use magic it becomes much more than a familer. a familier to a wizard has always be as much a liability as anything else. what is the draw back of the tinker?

it was explained to me that it is "just a little bonus the class gets" and i assumed that is where it was going to stay....if it is a minture verstion of a minion however it seriously needs to be looked at.

DeadEnded
2009-09-17, 11:51 AM
pretty spot on to me....want to try another monster? i've done this with a very large portion of them. the only one's where it breaks down are dragons because dragons are listed at full cr compared to the minus 1 in 3.5... for obvious reasons....
And that's my point. The pathfinder book is crap for BUILDING new monsters. You have to use the 3.5 MM and then adjust the CR for pathfinder.


and if the tinker can have ranks in UMD, and is diminutive it just became much more powerful than any familer i ever had. in fact i would want one as a wizard in just about EVERY game... a stealth tinker with a staff of power anyone?
That's just idiotic, it can't even hold the staff let alone carry it. It's TOO BIG.
EDIT: Apparently I am in error and you can make a staff of power the size of a toothpick. My bad dragons.

Battlesong72
2009-09-17, 12:18 PM
Ok, we are still looking at this the wrong way. Let's compare our CR 16 construct with another CR 16 Construct, a greater stone golem (another critter by the way, Dragons, that ruins your argument about not pushing one number to the extreme to compensate for another) - and DE please correct your init score, and you should list skills/special qualities as special or see breakthroughs, not just a -.

Sample 20th level Clockwork Minion:
CR 15 Huge Construct
HD 20d10+40 (150hp average) (= to or greater than but not 3x as much as 15)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 40'
AC: 30 (10 +3 Dex -3 Size +5 Dodge +15 Natural Armor) (total AC = to 13 + Target CR = 28)
Base Attack: +15
Attack: 25 (15-3+13) (Target CR x 1.5 = 22.5)
Full Attack: Huge Great sword: 25/19/13 (4d6+19), Rifle: 19 (1d10), Slam x 2: 25 (1d10+13)
Space/Reach: 15'/15'
Special Attacks: none
Special Qualities: Construct Traits, Lowlight Vision, Darkvision 60'
Saves: F+7; R+10; W+7
Abilities: Str 36 Dex 16 Con — Int — Wis 10 Cha 10
Skills: none
Feats: none
Environment: Non-Aquatic
+2 Racial Bonus applied 7 time to any non-intelligence skills
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greater Stone Golem
Huge Construct
HD 42D10+40 (271 hp)
Init: -2
Spd: 20'
AC: 27 (-2 size, -2 dex, +21 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 27
BAB: +31
Att: Slam +42 Melee (4d8+13)
Full Att: 2 Slams +42 Melee (4d8+13)
Space/Reach: 15'/15'
SA: Slow
SQ: Construct Traits, DR 10/Adamantine, Darkvision 60', Magic Immunity, Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +14, Reflex +12, Will +14
Abil: Str: 37, Dex: 7, Con -, Int -, Wis: 11, Cha: 1
Skills -
Feats -

Ok, so comparing the 2 golems, they are close on: AC, strength, and damage.
The Stone Golem is better by a country mile on hp, attack, and saves
Our minion is faster, swings more, higher init, and ranged attacks.
It is very hard to compare on special qualities and special abilities, although the fact that the gsg is immune to all spells that allow SR is monstrous.

Looking at this, I think, just maybe we are gimping the minion a little too much. If the Greater Stone Golem really is CR 16, we either need to jack the AC or the HD of the minion A LOT. The problem with deciding how much is the wild CR swing the minion can take when you start applying breakthroughs:smallconfused:.

I will say, I am more willing to work with numbers here than allow the minion magic items, as allowing magic items will push the creature to epic quickly

I want to apologize to DE for not having this insight earlier.

letdragonslie
2009-09-17, 03:00 PM
Stas, DE, and I got together today and had a very productive session. I brought up a good point that the golem lacks alot of abilities that a CR 16 critter has but the damage attack and ac output is about right. And it does need some more hit points. DE is working on what we got togeather and should be posting soon.

DeadEnded
2009-09-17, 08:26 PM
Updated the Minion and the E-Weapons.

The minion you'll have to check out yourself; it's too extensive to post here.

Changed the 'Built in Trinket' Breakthrough so it can only be taken once (that means only one item ever)
Deleted the Speed Boost Breakthrough
Decreased the level Req. for Spider legs / Treads to 6th.

The E-Weapon Change is that it's damage output does not change with size. Doesn't go down for smaller or up for larger creatures. It stays 3d6 for the pistol and 3d8 for the rifle no matter size you make it. This makes the Diminutive Clockwork Minion doing ranged damage a worthwhile option as opposed to a joke.

DeadEnded
2009-09-17, 09:05 PM
May I request that the clockworker class on the first page be updated? It's difficult to go through pages of text to see where changes have been made. The first post still shows that the clockwork minion gets 1 HD every level, and I hadn't realized that had changed.

Thanks,
Debby

Debby, the first post is updated every time I make a change. I kind of have to I'm using it to build a character and it's nice to have everything in one place. I also post in the thread that I've made a change (so the people watching the thread get notified).

The minion does get 1HD every level. Actually now it's 1HD+1 (1d10+1) to keep it's HP up where it should be. Though that may change depending on a number of things, may go down to +1HP every even level if the additional +20 is too much.

I don't know why you wouldn't see the updates to the first page unless there was some reason your browser was using a cached copy of the first page instead of the updated one. You may want to check on that.

DeadEnded~

DeadEnded
2009-09-17, 09:32 PM
With all the changes we've made, Battlesong has allowed me to rebuild Edmund, Clank and Ding the Tinker. Here's the new stat blocks for them based on the newest set of changes.

EdmundDEAD
6th Level Human Clockworker
HD 6d8+12 (48hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30'
AC: 20 (10 +6 Armor +3 Dex +1 Dodge)
Base Attack: +4
Attack: +4
Full Attack: Rapier(mw) +7 (1d6+2); Rifle(+1) +9 (2d8+1 Adamantine)
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
Special Attacks: none
Special Qualities: Breakthroughs:Trapfinding, Firearm (pistol), Better Bullet; Tinker, Repair,
Saves: F+5; R+9; W+6
*Abilities: Str - 14 Dex -17 Con -14 Int -16 Wis -10 Cha -10
Skills:Appraise 9; Craft(Construct) 14, Craft(Weapons) 14, Craft(Armors) 14, Disable Device 19, Knowledge(Engineering) 14, Perception 14, Sense Motive 8
Feats: Skill Focus: Perception, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, WP Focus: Rifle, Alertness*
Gear: +2 Chain Shirt, +1 Rifle, MW Rapier, 250 Adamantine Better Bullets, Bracer of Storing, Goggles of Minute Seeing, 5 Cure Light Potions, Scarab of Golembane, 2 Remove Fear Potions, 2 Steel Shadows Potions(tome of magic), 1 Comprehend Languages Potions**. +69g of basic equipment.

*Alertness from Tinker
**Used one - started with two.

ClankDESTROYED
Medium Construct
HD 6d10+30 (67hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30'
AC: 15 (10 +1 Dex +1 Dodge +3 Natural Armor)
Base Attack: +4
Attack: +5 (base + Str)
Full Attack: Slam +5 (1d6+1); Rifle(mw) +6 (2d8 Adamantine)
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
Special Attacks: Powerful Charge
Special Qualities: Construct Traits, Lowlight Vision, Darkvision 60'
Saves: F+2; R+3; W+2
*Abilities: Str -13 Dex -13 Con -- Int -- Wis -10 Cha -10
Skills: - +3 Climb(racial+ability), +3 Acrobatics(racial+ability)
Feats: -
Gear: Backpack, Large Cowbell, 2 Sunrods, 10 Oil, Tent, 10 Rations, 20 lbs Parts = 200g for 'Repair' ability. 250 Adamantine Better Bullets.

DingDESTROYED
CR 1/2 Diminutive Construct
Hit Die: 2d10 (12 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft.
Armor Class: 18 (10 +8 Size +3 Natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/—
Attack: —
Full Attack: —
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: None
Special Qualities: Construct traits, Darkvision 60 ft., Low-light vision, Perfect Tool, Improved Evasion, Speak with Master
Saves: Fort + 0, Ref +0, Will +0
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 11, Con —, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 11
Skills: Craft(Weapons) 10, Know(Engineer) 7, Hide 12
Feats: Skill Focus:Craft(Weapons)
Environment: Any Non-Aquatic
Due to their size, Tinkers also have a +12 racial bonus to Stealth checks.

letdragonslie
2009-09-18, 05:48 PM
Built In Trinket- You have constructed a special casing within your construct allowing you to place one ring, or wondrous magic item within. The energies running through the construct activate this item and the construct gains all the effects the item grants. This breakthrough requires clockworker level 7 or greater.

If this stays -- The wording definatly needs to be changed. as written any item usable 3/day is in effect all day.

I think this is still to powerful even if it was re-worded. If the minion is going to be able to use magic at all it needs to be weaker. while if it is staying as strong as it is now, it should not be able to use magic. If the concept is to make it a CR of proportion through the entire class and the CR is higher teired, then the last thing a minion needs is a boost from magic.

As far as the golem that battlesong listed. that is an advanced stone golem, the reason it gets so many hit dice and attack is because the abilities are that of a CR 13~~ the original golem.

if we just add abilities to the clockworkers golem to bring it up to speed with an equal level CR, even if through breakthroughs, at various levels, the need for magic is greatly lessoned.

also i noticed in the comparision there were only two breakthroughs applied... what if there were all 10 breakthroughs applied to the clockworker... how much more ability would it have?...

I would much prefer giving the clockworker abilities of appropriate CR through the clockworkers career. If it is just going to be a construct that "does damage" however, it should be toned down and allowed magic.

In the end, either way, its max numbers should be the same no matter which way the clockworker goes.

which is my problem with allowing even one item. It allows a CR 15-16 stat monster greater ability than it should have. The damage is where it should end up, the ac is where it should end up, anything that increases that should not be allowed unless it is lowered.

Example:

If a cr 16 should do X damage

Then clank when he should equal CR 16 should do X. No matter which build you use.

The way the monster is stated out now it does damage of X, if magic is allowed it can now do damage of Y.

Clank should never be able to do damage of Y. only X.

thats the way building works.

If magic is allowed the anticipitation of the minion obtaining magic should be included into its base stats. If obtaining magic is not allowed then it shoul dnot be included into its base stats.

it should not have base stats of X without the anticipation of magic, and then have a breakthrough created that can push it beyond what it should be able to do.

Hence why i oppose magic, unless its ability is lessoned.

I believe it should pick up abilities (or even breakthroughs) that allow it to match monsters of equal CR we are trying to accomplish.

if magic is allowed then its abilities need to be lessoned.

DeadEnded
2009-09-18, 05:55 PM
Go back and re-read the rest of the update. You missed the 'getting more abilities' part I think. It gets 4 eventually. One at 6, fast healing 3 at 7th, one at 12th and one at 18.

It's listed up by the main minion entry. There are a few to choose from. As for my wording you are correct. It does need to change, but again still sick here. And it was late, and I don't drink anywhere near as much coffee as you do.

Which is putting the entirety of a small Columbian Village through college. :smallbiggrin:

I'll get to the rewriting after the game this week. I should be clear headed enough by then to handle legalese by that point.

DE~

DeadEnded
2009-09-20, 01:23 PM
Changes Updated:
Better Bullet: fixed the die type change. I had it wrong, now using the listed book change.
Built in Trinket: changed the wording and how the item is activated.


I'm working on a cost system for building more clockwork golems, not equal to your minion but usable as a mount or base soldiers in a clockwork army.

When I come up with a cost, I need to look at the golem manuals and craft construct feat first, I'll post it for everyone to debate over. Remember, with this it's just adding another 'type' of golem like a stone or iron golem that anyone could create. The only difference would be that it is made of clockworks instead of flesh or iron and magic.

I've got a few ideas but again it's going to take me a few to figure out the costs.

Battlesong72
2009-09-21, 05:09 PM
2 things:

First, don't forget to update the reload time on the rifle to a full round action:smallsmile:

Second, I think we need to play with the duration. Maybe have something like a lesser and greater harness. I found a 3.5 race put out by WOTC that has wings and does not get even short burst flight until 5 HD. At that point they get 1 rd/con mod. I think your 5th level harness should be cheaper and more like the fly spell, 1 rd/lvl, and then you can upgrade at a higher lvl (to be determined) to the overland flight type flight you have it set to now. While I don't think the flight itself is overpowered, I do think overland flight so low is. The harness should also have a load capacity, or at least state you cannot fly while under heavy load. Lastly, considering the difficulty of hovering in Pathfinder, I don't think the lower level harness should give you hover for free....maybe with like a +5 bonus on the check.

Battlesong

Battlesong72
2009-09-21, 05:25 PM
One other thing Dragons brought up that I need to ask about. The DC's for your "breath guns". Where did you pull 15+ from for the calculations. Everything else I've seen is 10+X for calculating DCs. In all the arguments he's made, this is one of the few that we do agree upon. These weapons should follow all existing abilities of the same type and have the calculations at 10+X, not 15+X....and no, this does not require an increase in damage to compensate.

Battlesong

DeadEnded
2009-09-21, 09:32 PM
2 things:

First, don't forget to update the reload time on the rifle to a full round action:smallsmile:

Second, I think we need to play with the duration. Maybe have something like a lesser and greater harness. I found a 3.5 race put out by WOTC that has wings and does not get even short burst flight until 5 HD. At that point they get 1 rd/con mod. I think your 5th level harness should be cheaper and more like the fly spell, 1 rd/lvl, and then you can upgrade at a higher lvl (to be determined) to the overland flight type flight you have it set to now. While I don't think the flight itself is overpowered, I do think overland flight so low is. The harness should also have a load capacity, or at least state you cannot fly while under heavy load. Lastly, considering the difficulty of hovering in Pathfinder, I don't think the lower level harness should give you hover for free....maybe with like a +5 bonus on the check.

Battlesong

Ok first one:
I'm not updating rifles, I want to discuss that with you a lot more first. Definitely more than the 5-10 minutes we talked about it before we left after the game.

With the action on the Rifle and the Pistol working like an over/under, with one barrel as opposed to two, I don't see an increase in load time needed. These weapons are only slightly 'based' on the crossbow, they are different weapons. They perform differently, reload differently, they do different damage, have different critical modifiers, they are crafted and repaired with different skills, and the firearms are exotic weapons as opposed to simple. And they cost a metric crap ton more to buy: Pistol is 500gp market value, and the rifle is 1000gp market value. Closest weapon in price to the PISTOL is the repeating HEAVY crossbow at 400gp. You can only look at them as a different type of crossbow so far; then the line doesn't just break down it shatters into a googleplex of little bits, scatters on the wind and you see they are a whole different animal altogether.

In comparison let's take a look at our exotic weapon the repeating crossbow, it's the same as either the light or heavy crossbow, BUT it shoots 5 times before you have to reload. The firearms can't become 'rapid fire' until minimum 10th level, and it takes a breakthrough + more gold to mod the weapon. So at first level, you could take a light repeating crossbow, 1d8 damage, and move and shoot every round without a problem. By 3rd level you could then pick up the heavy repeating crossbow and do 1d10 damage every round as well as move. Right now the person using a rifle or pistol fires then uses his move action to reload, he can take a 5' step at some point during that, and that's it.

Also keep in mind you can't compare the 'better bullet' damage in this calculation. Sure it gets better damage but it costs more to make the bullets AND it took a breakthrough to get that damage in the first place.

On to the next one:
At 1/r per level the flying harness is pretty much useless. I'm not trying to duplicate the fly spell and I don't want to. I don't want yet another breakthrough needing to upgraded later. That one more breakthrough away from the class. The harness moves at 30'; there is no 'running' there is no moving faster. You move at 30'. That's slower than overland flight by a good deal since you can hustle using overland flight. I really don't have a problem with it as written, considering that it's not going to get used as often as you think. Most characters are still ground bound at 5th level, save flight sometimes in combat IF the wiz/sorc wants to use it on themselves or maybe on the fighter. Later in the levels, yes flight becomes a much bigger issue as more monsters fly and it gives a decided tactical disadvantage if your character does not. At 2k we have a good, balanced ability for the class. I say let's not mess with it.

And finally:
I moved the DC of the breathweapon guns up after talking with Stas. He had some very good reasoning behind the increased DC and I agreed with him. I don't remember exactly what the reasoning was at the moment, but it made a lot of sense at the time. Maybe if we prod him a bit he can post his thoughts on here for us, but for the life of me I don't remember what his argument was other than it made a lot of sense.

DE~

P.S. Check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Revolver_Rifle
That is exactly what the 'rapid fire' breakthrough put into the rifle would look like. Cause I thought it much more interesting than a lever-action and makes more sense with the pistol becoming a revolver anyway.

I want one. Like really bad lol.

DeadEnded
2009-09-22, 12:40 AM
Clockwork Soldiers fill the ranks of those countries that have a sizable base of Clockworkers to build them. They follow the orders of their commander as best they can and have proven to be devastating front line fighters for the armies that can afford to have them built.

Clockwork Soldier
Medium Construct (clockwork)
Hit Dice 5d10+20HD (47HP)
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Initiative:+1
Armor Class 15; touch 11; flat-footed 14 (10 +1 dex +4 natural)
Base Attack +3
Attack Standard Slam +8 (1d6+5)
Full-Attack Slam(x2) +8 (1d6+5)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks: None Standard
Special Qualities: Construct Traits, Darkvision 60', low-light vision, Group Command
Saves Fort +1 Ref +2 Will +1
Abilities Str 20, Dex 12, Con X, Int X, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills: none
Feats: none
Environment: Non-Aquatic
Organization: Platoon (20)
Challenge Rating 5
Treasure: none
Alignment: True Neutral
Advancement: See Below

Combat
Group Commanded - A platoon of Clockwork Soldiers can be commanded by a leader with a Command Signet (see below). They all follow the same orders given by the commander unless singled out usually by a designation number.

Creation - Metal gears, plates and parts weighing about 300 lbs. and costing 1/3 the total cost. Creation is a DC 18 Craft(Construct) check. Clockworker/Caster level 8th; Magic Users need these spells/skills: Shocking Grasp, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Knowledge(Engineering) 8 ranks.
Market Cost 20,000; Cost to create 10,000

Any creator, clockworker or magic user, can add Hit Dice to the construct. This adds to the market cost of the Clockwork Soldier. Hit Dice cost 2500gp each to 15 total HD; then 5000gp each to add to 25 total HD; then 7500gp each to 35 total HD.

Command Signet - This Signet; a plate depicting the platoons insignia with a loop of chain; takes the amulet slot on the body. It allows the wearer to command 100HD of Clockwork Soldiers that are attuned to the signet and within 100 feet as the creator of the Clockwork Soldier. Magic Users need this spell: Command. Market Cost 20,000; Cost to create 10,000.

Attuning a Clockwork Soldier to the signet takes one hour and 50gp of parts added to the Soldier. Clockwork Soldiers attuned to a Command Signet consider the wearer of the signet as their creator. A clockwork soldier does not need to be attuned to a signet, in this case treat as a normal golem and master.

Clockworkers may add any of their breakthroughs that are applicable to a clockwork minion to a clockwork soldier. They incur additional costs when building these into the new Clockwork Soldier.

For any breakthrough the base market cost to add is 5000gp
+2000gp for breakthroughs with a level prerequisite 9 or lower.
+4000gp for breakthroughs with a level prerequisite 10 or more.
+gold piece costs required by the breakthrough itself.

EX1: to add a flying harness (5th level prereq. and 2000gp) to a Clockwork Soldier would add 9000gp to the market cost.
EX2: to add burrowing (10th level prereq.) would also cost 9000gp.
EX3: to add a firearm(Rifle) (No level prereq. 1000gp market for Rifle) would be 8000gp.

A Clockworker can add size to a Clockwork Soldier as long as he is capable of adding size to his minion. This adds to the market cost of the Soldier as shown in the table:
{table=head]Size Shift|Cost|Weight
medium to large|5000gp|+250lbs
large to huge|10,000gp|+500lbs
huge to Gargantuan|15,000|+1000lbs[/table]

A Clockworker can add Strength or Dexterity to the Soldier up to the amount his minion is increased by. It adds 3000gp to the market cost of the minion for each point added.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And there we go. Assembly lined Clockwork Soldiers. Not really cheap or easy to make but hell, makes for a fine army if you asked me :P

P.E.A.C.H. this out for me please, I'd like everyone's thoughts.

Battlesong72
2009-09-22, 09:44 AM
I'll take on the guns in a separate post. As for the flying harness, I wasn't talking about making upgrading the harness a second breakthrough you would have to take, so much as something that would happen at a higher level. So the flying harness breakthrough would allow you the lower fly time and then at a certain level it would upgrade to the higher flight time. I disagree that overland flight is not overpwered for 5th level, as WOTC would not even provide that to a winged race at that level. Especially being able to split up your time as you can. It allows a level of scouting and circumventing that most other characters would not even be able to come close to within 4 levels of this ability. This breakthrough now almost falls dead between Fly and Overland Flight, meaning maybe this is better as a min 7th lvl breakthrough. I would even be more comfortable with this at 1min/lvl to start. As for being useless at 1rd/lvl, at no point have I ever heard of the Fly spell as being useless, and potions of fly do the same thing at 750 gp for 1 5 rd flight, and people seem to keep them on hand. I know you are not trying to emulate the fly spell, but that is the baseline we need to keep in mind when analyzing a the ability to fly at this level.

Battlesong

DeadEnded
2009-09-22, 11:51 AM
Only one of the other breakthroughs follow that format. Only the 'Alloyed Chassis just 'upgrades' because you get a higher level, and I'm not really happy with that, but it is the only way to work that one. It's really not how I want any of them to work.

Each breakthrough is supposed to stand on it's own. Each one makes a moderate change to what the character is capable of making or doing. This is why 'better bullet' and 'better bomb' are breakthroughs and Trapfinding never loses the -4 perception penalty. Upgrading on it's own breaks the idea / rule I am going for with this. And that is that 'spark of brilliance' that you have as a clockworker is asserting itself. You've figured out how to make something really spiffy, and without that 'spark' again making itself known you won't upgrade that spiffy thing.

I'm more than willing to split the difference with you and say it's a 6th level prerequisite. It's not as good as overland flight, but it's better than fly.


By the By I've come up with a 5th level ability:
Identify 1 x day + 1 x day per 5 class levels. 2 times per day at 5th level and 5 total times per day at 20th level.

As written for pathfinder it works: It equals detect magic and adds +10 to appraise check to determine what a magic item does. No artifacts.

P.E.A.C.H. on that?
DeadEnded~

Battlesong72
2009-09-22, 11:59 AM
The gun reload times, we will need to work on. As far as the rapid fire breakthrough, it needs a few clarifications. First, an update you probably forgot due to how sick you were, but we are not allowing you to use the e-weapons every attack. As far as rapid fire on the regular guns, you will need to list the number of rounds they hold (and no, we are not seeing 100 rd belt feds here....:smallbiggrin:), and reload time. Also note in all descriptions that reloading does provoke AoO.

Battlesong

Battlesong72
2009-09-22, 12:02 PM
Ok, so let's split the difference exactly. Fly at 5th lvl, Overland Flight at 9th lvl, let's set the harness at 7. I am more comfortable with it that way.

DeadEnded
2009-09-22, 12:10 PM
The gun reload times, we will need to work on. As far as the rapid fire breakthrough, it needs a few clarifications. First, an update you probably forgot due to how sick you were, but we are not allowing you to use the e-weapons every attack. As far as rapid fire on the regular guns, you will need to list the number of rounds they hold (and no, we are not seeing 100 rd belt feds here....:smallbiggrin:), and reload time. Also note in all descriptions that reloading does provoke AoO.

Battlesong

I was damn sure I changed that already, but when I went back and looked it wasn't fixed. Weird.

200 rounds actually, total belt fed. That's why you need the minion; to carry all those rounds.....:belkar:

But seriously, it's a six shooter. They both are, full round to reload. Found some pictures on wikipedia for them too.

DE~

P.S. *Evil Grin* I just realized if you cut your name down like I do it becomes BS .... no real reasoning behind that, I just thought it was funny.

Battlesong72
2009-09-22, 12:12 PM
Only one of the other breakthroughs follow that format. Only the 'Alloyed Chassis just 'upgrades' because you get a higher level, and I'm not really happy with that, but it is the only way to work that one. It's really not how I want any of them to work.

Each breakthrough is supposed to stand on it's own. Each one makes a moderate change to what the character is capable of making or doing. This is why 'better bullet' and 'better bomb' are breakthroughs and Trapfinding never loses the -4 perception penalty. Upgrading on it's own breaks the idea / rule I am going for with this. And that is that 'spark of brilliance' that you have as a clockworker is asserting itself. You've figured out how to make something really spiffy, and without that 'spark' again making itself known you won't upgrade that spiffy thing.

That is one of the most maddening things about evaluating and balancing this class. By default abilities in D&D are supposed to get better as you advance in level, this includes class abilities. The problem with static abilities within the game is they typically are nigh broken when first obtained and too weak further on.

Battlesong

Battlesong72
2009-09-22, 12:13 PM
Funny, I was beginning to picture Rambo, where the belt never gets shorter....:smalltongue:

DeadEnded
2009-09-22, 12:58 PM
That is one of the most maddening things about evaluating and balancing this class. By default abilities in D&D are supposed to get better as you advance in level, this includes class abilities. The problem with static abilities within the game is they typically are nigh broken when first obtained and too weak further on.

Battlesong

That's where level prereqs come in.

If I made all the abilities get better as your class level went up it would be HORRIBLY broken. Like a googleplex of pieces scattered on the wind broken.

Your thoughts on Identify as an ability for 5th level, I realized it fits after rereading how item ability identification works in pathfinder.

And I changed the number in fly. It's now 7.

Debihuman
2009-09-22, 03:48 PM
I am not fixing other than to note that you have discrepencies on whether a 1st level Clockworker can create a Medium or Small clockwork minion. Your chart says Medium but your initial text says Small. Which one is correct? I've bolded the discrepancies in the text and in your text below.

Also, you describe them as Humanoid in appearance. This prevents them from being used as a mount unless you can make a quadraped clockwork minion as a breakthrough. I go on about this later too.



{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |AC Bonus
1|0|0|2|2|Clockwork Minion(Medium),Progam,Repair,Tinker|0
2|1|0|3|3|Breakthrough|0
3|2|1|3|3|Caught off Guard|0
4|3|1|4|4|Breakthrough, Program|1
5|3|1|4|4||1
6|4|2|5|5|Breakthrough,Clockwork Minion(+/-size)|1
7|5|2|5|5|Clockwork Minion(Fast Healing 3),Program,Epiphany,Strange Contraption|1
8|6/1|2|6|6|Breakthrough|2
9|6/1|3|6|6|Evasion|2
10|7/2|3|7|7|Breakthrough,Program|2
11|8/3|3|7|7|Epiphany|2
12|9/4|4|8|8|Breakthrough,Clockwork Minion(+/- size)|3
13|9/4|4|8|8|Program,Salvage|3
14|10/5|4|9|9|Breakthrough|3
15|11/6/1|5|9|9||3
16|12/7/2|5|10|10|Breakthrough,Epiphany,Program|4
17|12/7/2|5|10|10|Command Construct|4
18|13/8/3|6|11|11|Breakthrough, Clockwork Minion (+/-size)|4
19|14/9/4|6|11|11|Awaken Construct,Program|4
20|15/10/5|6|12|12|Breakthrough|5
[/table]


Also, I don't think you should be able to create more than your first clockwork minion for free. It should cost 1,000 gp per HD to create additional clockwork minions. This keeps the amount of money in check as there were some concerns about that.



Clockwork Minion

You create a humanoid clockwork minion that is under your control; this minion is absolutely loyal and follows your orders just as any other construct. Initially this construct is small but as you gain levels and your ability to create improves so does your construct.


Are you starting with Medium or Small clockwork minions? I suggest starting with Small but you may disagree.

This looks good. It mostly precludes using your clockwork minion as a mount though. However, I think it should stay this way. If you want a clockwork minion as a mount that needs to be a breakthrough. Perhaps, you could make a quadruped breakthrough which allows you to use your clockwork minion as a mount. However, your Clockworker would still need to have Ride as a Skill.

However, I think you need to change the cost for creating additional clockwork minions. It should still costs for upgrades, equipment, and breakthroughs, but tacking on a 1000 gp per HD cost for additional minions isn't a bad idea. It's much cheaper than making a golem for example.




Every level after the first adds +1d10+1 HD* to your minion
Every even level you apply the following bonuses
+1 Natural Armor
+1 To Strength and Dexterity
Base Attack Bonus as per Construct in MM (3/4)


*I thought you were changing this so that the clockwork minion gained hit points like other constructs. It's a little weird to gain hit points that way.



The minion is unable to use any magic items other than weapons. This is due to its unintelligent nature and its inability to understand what it is doing.


I like this a lot. I just fixed the grammar a bit.




A clockwork minion is humanoid in shape and only has two arms/hands capable of utilizing any sort of weapon if you have the breakthrough to attach them. This can be one two-handed melee or ranged weapon, or any combination of two one-handed melee or ranged weapons.

Choose when you create your minion or upgrade it whether it has a slam or claw attack. Damage is the same for either type. A slam does bludgeoning damage while a claw does slashing damage.

This is good too. Again I fixed some grammar issues.



At levels 6, 12, and 18, you may improve your clockwork minion's size one category by reinforcing or miniaturizing its structure. This takes 12 hours of work to complete the modifications. Slam shifts one die type per size category.

I don't think you should be able to make colossal clockwork minions at 6th level so it should be limited to one size category only.



You also choose one special ability from the list below when you make this upgrade. Your Minion gains 1 special ability per size category difference from medium I.E.: 1 @ 6, 2 @ 12, 3 @ 18. You may change this special ability when you change the minions size or by taking the 12 hours of repair time to change it.

Special Ability List:

Blindsense 30'
Improved Grab: (melee weapon or slam)
Improved Sunder: as per feat
Frightful Presence: on attack; 20' (DC 10 +1/2 HD +2)
Pounce: as per MM
Powerful Charge: (x2 damage on slam or melee weapon charge damage)
Rake: as per MM
Roar: 4 times per day once every 1d4 rounds; 60' radius Will DC (10 +1/2 HD +2) or Dazed for 1 round. Creatures allied with the clockwork minion are unaffected as are deaf creatures. This ability does not work if the minion is silenced.
Trample: as per MM


At level 7, you impart a self-repairing system to your Minion, this gives it the extraordinary ability: fast healing 3.

Aside from some grammar issues, I like all this.

Debby

DeadEnded
2009-09-22, 04:33 PM
I am fixing your table as follows: Note, you have discrepancies on whether a 1st level Clockworker can create a Medium or Small clockwork minion. Your chart says Medium but your initial text says Small. Which one is correct? I've bolded the discrepancies in the text and in your text below.

Also, you describe them as Humanoid in appearance. This prevents them from being used as a mount unless you can make a quadraped clockwork minion as a breakthrough. I go on about this later too.

I think it looks a little neater now. What do you think? Also, I don't think you should be able to create more than your first clockwork minion for free. It should cost 1,000 gp per HD to create additional clockwork minions. This keeps the amount of money in check as there were some concerns about that.

Are you starting with Medium or Small clockwork minions? I suggest starting with Small but you may disagree.

I like the look of the table, I'm not sure what you did, but I like it. So, I'm just gonna copy your table over lol. I am going to have to re add the '1' between +/- and size.

Starting with medium at first level, you get one size shift at 6, one at 12 and one at 18. That means you can shift the minion only one size at sixth, two at 12th and then finally 3 at 18th and that's off the base of medium. That maxes at Diminutive and Gargantuan. Though if you wanted to, you could take the extra width breakthrough and get the bonuses for being 'colossal', though you'd still have to have a gargantuan minion for that to work.

I guess that doesn't read well in the original entry and I have to rewrite it.


This looks good. It mostly precludes using your clockwork minion as a mount though. However, I think it should stay this way. If you want a clockwork minion as a mount that needs to be a breakthrough. Perhaps, you could make a quadruped breakthrough which allows you to use your clockwork minion as a mount. However, your Clockworker would still need to have Ride as a Skill.

The breakthrough "spider legs/Treads" available at 6th level allows you to use your minion as a mount, even if it's the same size as you are.


However, I think you need to change the cost for creating additional clockwork minions. It should still costs for upgrades, equipment, and breakthroughs, but tacking on a 1000 gp per HD cost for additional minions isn't a bad idea. It's much cheaper than making a golem for example.

:smallbiggrin: Go check this out:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6975907&postcount=115
Clockwork Soldiers, regular golems made of clockworks. I've subtyped them as 'clockwork' but I'm not sure what that's going to mean just yet.

I also just added it to the main entry. Under a spoiler at the end.


*I thought you were changing this so that the clockwork minion gained hit points like other constructs. It's a little weird to gain hit points that way.

It's badly stated, it gets the same construct bonuses as other constructs for size. +10 small, +20 medium, etc. BUT because of the small number of hit dice that the minion will get it does not compare to other constructs of its CR. So to alleviate that HP discrepancy it is going to get an extra hit point per level.

I guess I'm going to have to re-post the chart from the MM for it to make sense.


I like this a lot. I just fixed the grammar a bit.
This is good too. Again I fixed some grammar issues.
I don't think you should be able to make colossal clockwork minions at 6th level so it should be limited to one size category only.
Aside from some grammar issues, I like all this.

Debby

All the grammar help is fantastic, when I'm sick I really could care less about grammar. *laughs*

I think I covered everything, but if I missed something let me know.

DeadEnded~

Debihuman
2009-09-22, 04:40 PM
Ok, we are still looking at this the wrong way. Let's compare our CR 16 construct with another CR 16 Construct, a greater stone golem (another critter by the way, Dragons, that ruins your argument about not pushing one number to the extreme to compensate for another) - and DE please correct your init score, and you should list skills/special qualities as special or see breakthroughs, not just a -.

Sample 20th level Clockwork Minion:
CR 15 Huge Construct
HD 20d10+40 (150hp average) (= to or greater than but not 3x as much as 15)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 40'
AC: 30 (10 +3 Dex -3 Size +5 Dodge +15 Natural Armor) (total AC = to 13 + Target CR = 28)
Base Attack: +15
Attack: 25 (15-3+13) (Target CR x 1.5 = 22.5)
Full Attack: Huge Great sword: 25/19/13 (4d6+19), Rifle: 19 (1d10), Slam x 2: 25 (1d10+13)
Space/Reach: 15'/15'
Special Attacks: none
Special Qualities: Construct Traits, Lowlight Vision, Darkvision 60'
Saves: F+7; R+10; W+7
Abilities: Str 36 Dex 16 Con — Int — Wis 10 Cha 10
Skills: none
Feats: none
Environment: Non-Aquatic

+2 Racial Bonus applied 7 time to any non-intelligence skills


Why isn't that sample clockwork minion awakened? It would make a difference, especially since awakening now occurs at level 19?


Back to previous stuff now.



BUT because of the small number of hit dice that the minion will get it does not compare to other constructs of its CR. So to alleviate that HP discrepancy it is going to get an extra hit point per level.

Then the CR is is wrong. CR is mutable. Adding extraneous hit points in a arbitrary fashion doesn't help you enough and it makes for an awkward way of making constructs. Stick to the standard rules and you'll be much better off.

Judging the correct CR is difficult. You set the minion against what you think are appropriate level PCs and judge the outcome. I think judging CR is the hardest part of making monsters.

A 20 HD minion isn't the same CR as a 20 HD Stone golem, nor should it be expected to be so. It should be weaker and have a lower CR. That's why it is a minion and not the "widget that kills monsters for my PC so I don't have to risk my PC." That would be extremely unfair.

In a CR 20 battle, you would have four PCs of 20th level AND the minion, the tinker, a wizard's familar, a druid's animal companion and any other allies or summon creatures. Did you expect a 20 HD minion to be able to handle that alone?!

Debby

Battlesong72
2009-09-22, 05:18 PM
I was simply making the point that maybe the minion was behind the curve somewhere when I referenced the Greater Stone Golem. You are correct that the thing should not have the same number of HD. That is where the chart of extra abilities came from, these combined with abilities gained from breakthroughs will more than make up for the difference. With regards to the minion, we feel we are at an appropriate point where just having it in game won't break the game. From here, we are in actual playtest mode and tweaking some of the other abilities.

Battlesong

DeadEnded
2009-09-22, 05:21 PM
Why isn't that sample clockwork minion awakened? It would make a difference, especially since awakening now occurs at level 19?

Debby

Once you awaken something you can't use it as an 'animal companion' and thereby makes it ineligible to be a minion. Awaken Construct would work the same way, that's why it's not awakened in the example. It effectively becomes an NPC with all the seriously buff construct abilities. Most PCs probably couldn't take it as a Cohort with the Leadership feat. Then again, having had a PC with a leadership score through the roof, maybe they could.

What you CAN do is awaken your minion and then build a new one. Now as to how much THAT little bit of engineering and construction would cost I don't know. You would be in essence building the exact same minion again.

But from how the Awaken Construct spell works I'm not sure if I even want to keep it as an ability. It's more of a detriment to the class as opposed to something beneficial.

I'd have no idea what to replace it with though. I do have an idea for the 5th level ability: Identify. Maybe with a gadget that you hook up to the magic item to check for like quantum interference lol.

Identify works much differently in pathfinder than 3.5. One of my previous posts has the details, you'd have to go back and take a look.


Identify 1 x day + 1 x day per 5 class levels. 2 times per day at 5th level and 5 total times per day at 20th level.

As written for pathfinder it works: It equals detect magic and adds +10 to appraise check to determine what a magic item does. No artifacts.

Battlesong72
2009-09-22, 05:22 PM
I forgot about your question on awakening. While it is a great ability, it does present the Clockworker with a dilemma. Awakening means the minon is no longer a minion - same as awakening an Animal Companion. This means it needs to now become a cohort, which leads to all sorts of interesting issues. I believe DE chose to keep the sample unawakened as that is the option that will keep the minion with you at all times.

DeadEnded
2009-09-22, 05:27 PM
I forgot about your question on awakening. While it is a great ability, it does present the Clockworker with a dilemma. Awakening means the minon is no longer a minion - same as awakening an Animal Companion. This means it needs to now become a cohort, which leads to all sorts of interesting issues. I believe DE chose to keep the sample unawakened as that is the option that will keep the minion with you at all times.

Um ... I actually totally forgot about awaken construct when I made the thing ....

No lie.

I like the idea behind Awaken Construct but I don't like how it would interact with the class. I think I may be pulling it. I just need to find something worth putting in at 19th level. It's very hard to find upper level abilities that mesh well with the style, balance, and game play of upper level D&D.

Not to mention 5th and 15th level. I really don't like having them as dead levels.

Any advice ... from anyone?

DE~

Debihuman
2009-09-22, 10:57 PM
I wouldn't worry about the awaken ability. It's nice if you want it, but it's not essential. However, you still need special abilities for levels 5/10/15 and even 20. You might want something as simple as at every 5th level your Clockworker gets a bonus feat.

Also, I noticed that all your Save DCs were off by 5. A standard Save is 10 + 1/2 Creature's HD + ability modifier. You used 15 + 1/2 creature's HD + ability modifier which throws things off. You want this to be able to be used in as many campaigns as possible and this might deter some game masters.

Debby

DeadEnded
2009-09-22, 11:14 PM
I wouldn't worry about the awaken ability. It's nice if you want it, but it's not essential. However, you still need special abilities for levels 5/10/15 and even 20. You might want something as simple as at every 5th level your Clockworker gets a bonus feat.

Also, I noticed that all your Save DCs were off by 5. A standard Save is 10 + 1/2 Creature's HD + ability modifier. You used 15 + 1/2 creature's HD + ability modifier which throws things off. You want this to be able to be used in as many campaigns as possible and this might deter some game masters.

Debby

A few posts back I posted something with Identify as a 5th level ability. Check it out and let me know what you think of it. NO idea what to add if anything to 10th level, and 15th level is also something I've no idea about. If I pull awaken that opens that level as well for something.

basically I need a few more 'somethings' to add in. Though I don't 'mind' having dead levels, I'd rather not. Even if it's only something for 5 and 15 I'd be happy, 10th gets a breakthrough and program progression. That evil 19th and a capstone for 20th would be really nice.

The DCs are slightly better on purpose. :smallbiggrin:

Since there are really only a very small handful of Area of Effect breakthroughs, and it would take half your breakthroughs to get them all, we decided that they needed a slightly bigger DC.

Sure at lower levels it's a little better than the usual DC, running in a DC 16 + ability at second level for 1dX damage, but by the time you hit 20th level 10+1/2+ability really doesn't stand up as well, everyone will make that save. 20 or 25 + ability isn't a HUGE boost, but it's a little something to keep the damage potential viable.

If a GM really doesn't like the 15 + it's within his right (as a DM) to change it. But written as is, you get an average damage ability with a slightly better than average save. Not game breaking, but just that little boost to keep the clockworker dealing his AoE damage later in levels.

DeadEnded~

Debihuman
2009-09-23, 12:10 AM
Well once you start adding that extra hit point at every level and the DC at 15, it's more than a "little" boost and starts to become an unbalancing boost.

[Edit] About the only thing that you did to minimize this was to lessen the impact of size increases and decreases:



Increased Size Bonuses (replaces MM size): +4 Str; -2 Dex; -1 Attack/AC
Decreased Size Bonuses (replaces MM size): -2 Str; +4 Dex; -1 Attack/AC

Normally you'd get:

{table] Old Size| New Size| Str| Dex| Con| Natural Armor| AC/Attack
Fine| Diminutive| Same| -2| Same| Same| -4
Diminutive| Tiny| +2| -2| Same| Same| -2
Tiny| Small| +4| -2| Same| Same| -1
Small| Medium| +4| -2| +2| Same| -1
Medium| Large| +8| -2| +4| +2| -1
Large| Huge| +8| -2| +4| +3| -1
Huge| Gargantuan| +8| Same| +4| +4| -2
Gargantuan| Colossal| +8| Same| +4| +5| -4
[/table]


The minion is supposed to be underpowered otherwise it's unbalancing. They don't breathe or need to sleep unlike familiars or animal companions; they aren't affected by poison and disease; they have a far greater affect in game as far as combat goes. When was the last time a standard familiar or animal companion was really viable in a battle? Most of the time, the wizard or druid is sending them away for their own safety. Moreover, the clockworker has both a Tinker and a Clockwork minion at his disposal. Additionally, I'm beginning to think the Tinker should get a single slam attack even if it is really weak. Even diminutive constructs should have a single attack.

Granting bonus feats is always a nice thing especially since clockworkers required to have the prerequisite 'Craft Magic Arms and Armor' and 'Craft Wondrous Item' feats in order to create clockwork golems.

Also, I don't know understand your use of Identify. Are you talking about the spell or something else? Because if you are talking about the spell it does this:
"This spell functions as detect magic, except that it gives you a
+10 enhancement bonus on Spellcraft checks made to identify the properties and command words of magic items in your possession. This spell does not allow you to identify artifacts." How does this help a clockworker?

Debby

DeadEnded
2009-09-23, 12:22 AM
Well once you start adding that extra hit point at every level and the DC at 15, it's more than a "little" boost and starts to become an unbalancing boost.

The minion is supposed to be underpowered otherwise it's unbalancing. They don't breathe or need to sleep unlike familiars or animal companions; they aren't affected by poison and disease; they have a far greater affect in game as far as combat goes. When was the last time a standard familiar or animal companion was really viable in a battle? Most of the time, the wizard or druid is sending them away for their own safety. Moreover, the clockworker has both a Tinker and a Clockwork minion at his disposal. Additionally, I'm beginning to think the Tinker should get a single slam attack even if it is really weak. Even diminutive constructs should have a single attack.

Granting bonus feats is always a nice thing especially since clockworkers required to have the prerequisite 'Craft Magic Arms and Armor' and 'Craft Wondrous Item' feats in order to create clockwork golems.

Also, I don't know understand your use of Identify. Are you talking about the spell or something else? Because if you are talking about the spell it does this:
"This spell functions as detect magic, except that it gives you a
+10 enhancement bonus on Spellcraft checks made to identify the properties and command words of magic items in your possession. This spell does not allow you to identify artifacts." How does this help a clockworker?

Debby

All the Minion stuff needs to be tested, it's supposed to be better than an animal companion but not so much that it takes the show. Since I'm in a game right now with a minion and such, any real changes are going to come out of that for now. I can't really keep changing things every week after one session. It has to be played for an extended number of game sessions before I can think of making any more changes to it. I think it's as good as we're going to be able to make it without making it too good but again gotta be tested.

Giving the tinker a slam would then give it the ability to use attack actions. Can you say Use Magic Device & Staff of Power the size of a toothpick in it's hands? I don't want to deal with that kind of mess. So no attack actions for the Tinker :smallbiggrin:

As for the Identify it's Appraise not Spellcraft. It helps because he can then identify the stuff he finds. It's more of a building up to the 7th level ability that let's you build magic items as opposed to anything else. Seemed appropriate when I was thinking about it the other day.

DE~

Debihuman
2009-09-23, 12:38 AM
First, the Appraise skill lets you determine the value of common items. If you use it on magical items, you learn that those items have magical properties, but you don't learn what those properties are. [See page 90 Pathfinder Core Rules].

Second, Use Magic Device can only be used as a Trained Skill. [PCR page 108] Last time I checked, the Tinker didn't have that skill, couldn't get that skill and shouldn't get that skill. That, my friend, prevents Tinkers from using magical items. In any event, perhaps you should state which skills Tinkers can get. UMD shouldn't be one of them.

Last of all, Clockworkers don't have Spellcraft on their list of skills. That is another skill that can only be used as a Trained Skill [PCR page 106]

Debby

DeadEnded
2009-09-23, 01:09 AM
First, the Appraise skill lets you determine the value of common items. If you use it on magical items, you learn that those items have magical properties, but you don't learn what those properties are. [See page 90 Pathfinder Core Rules].

Second, Use Magic Device can only be used as a Trained Skill. [PCR page 108] Last time I checked, the Tinker didn't have that skill, couldn't get that skill and shouldn't get that skill. That, my friend, prevents Tinkers from using magical items. In any event, perhaps you should state which skills Tinkers can get. UMD shouldn't be one of them.

Last of all, Clockworkers don't have Spellcraft on their list of skills. That is another skill that can only be used as a Trained Skill [PCR page 106]

Debby

Under Identify P.240 of the pathfinder book it lists Appraise.

Page 90 in my pathfinder core book is in the middle of feats. Page 56 of my pathfinder core book has this excerpt from the Appraise skill:


If you are trained in Appraise, you can use it in conjunction with detect magic or identify to determine the properties of a magic item in your possession. The DC of this check equals 15 + the item's caster level. If successful, you determine the item's properties and command words. You cannot determine the powers of artifacts through the use of this skill. You must be the caster of detect magic to use this skill in this way.

The pathfinder skill system is a lot different than the 3.5 skills system. In pathfinder you can take ANY skill. There are no barred skills for any class or race or creature. What a 'something' gets are either considered 'class' skills or 'non-class' skills. The class skills get a +3 trained bonus, the non-class don't. All skills can be taken equal to class level in ranks.

As written the Tinker CAN take skill ranks in Use Magic Device. It doesn't get the 'trained' class bonus of +3, but it can take it. The list of 'class' skills for the Tinker are under the Tinker spoiler in the main clockworker post.

So right now you've got the Tinker walking around with a cure light wounds toothpick .... tapping people that need healing. Non-offensive actions that slightly help the party, provided it makes the roll and if you wanted to give the tinker that skill. Keep in mind that most wands are going to be sized for medium creatures and about proportional to a staff to the diminutive Tinker.

Now considering the DC on our "wand use" UMD check is 20, you would have to put a good number of ranks into UMD, and then use the program ability to buff up that number even farther JUST to get UMD to work.

The Tinker gets a total of 5 HD at level 17-18 on the chart, that equals 5 Ranks in UMD, with adding two levels of program to that you'd get a 9 and be 'on the bubble' for attempting a UMD check DC 20 for a wand or emulating a class feature. Not too bad, but what IS bad is that that could be used with a wand of fireballs instead of a wand of cure serious wounds.

And that's what I don't want. No one needs a diminutive construct with a +12 racial Hide bonus with a wand of fireballs running around making things go >FWOOSH<

But being able to have your Tinker dig around in your bag and grab that cure wand to heal you when you're down most definitely is nice.

So it kind of has to stand as it is: The tinker can't take offensive actions, but can take UMD if you really want it to. I personally think you would be better off buying potions and having it feed them to you, but hey to each their own.

DE~

Debihuman
2009-09-23, 04:39 AM
Are you looking at the hardcover Pathfinder Core Rulebook or at a different version? I've got the hardcover and page 240 is in the Spells Chapter and page 90 is in Skills chapter. I don't know why your version is different unless you are using the the Beta rules. Things have changed since then and some may have changed significantly.

The only "Identify" in my book is a spell on page 299 and I previously quoted the text to you.

What Pathfinder did with skills is remove cross-class skills. Class skills are now "favored skills" and you get a +3 bonus on all that you put ranks into it. And you can never have more ranks in a skill than you have hit dice. [Whew that's pretty much what you said...]

More confusing is that you already noted which skills Tinker's receive as Class skills and UMD is not on that list. They get the following as Class skills:" all Craft skills, Disable Device, Knowledge (Engineering), and Stealth." Since Tinkers only have a maximum of 4 hit dice: at best they could 14 skill points (8 for 1st level, 2 for each additional HD). Tinkers only get 4 ranks in UMD at best [with Int 10 they don't get any skill bonuses]. Considering that even to use a wand is DC 20, odds aren't looking so good for the Tinker using a wand. Are you sure this is so badly broken? Odds of a Tinker failing to use the wand are fairly high [needs a 16 or better to succeed on a d20]. And that is the best it can do. At 1 hit die, it gets one rank in UMD and needs to roll 19 or better to succeed on UMD to use a wand. It's really a waste of a skill point. That is even assuming there is a wand to use and that some spellcaster hasn't claimed it first. If I were in a party that included a clockworker, I'd make pretty darn sure neither he nor his clockwork minion nor his tinker got its hands on a magical device. Save that for the bard, rogue or sorcerer. BTW, I've never quite figured out why UMD isn't a class skill for wizards but I suppose it's to make them cast spells instead of using items.

Int —, but under under skills it would list the racial skills only. Tinkers get a +4 racial bonus on the following skills: Disable Device, Knowledge (Engineering) and Stealthy. They still get the size bonus to Stealthy. Does that fix the problem any better? It also gets rid of the pesky Intelligent Construct at first level. It is kinda unbalancing to allow a 1st level character have access to an intelligent construct, especially since he or she is also getting a clockwork minion.

Just some ideas to throw your way...


Due to their size, Tinkers also have a +12 racial bonus to Stealth checks. Technically this is incorrect. They have a size bonus not a racial bonus.



Debby

DeadEnded
2009-09-23, 01:04 PM
Are you looking at the hardcover Pathfinder Core Rulebook or at a different version? I've got the hardcover and page 240 is in the Spells Chapter and page 90 is in Skills chapter. I don't know why your version is different unless you are using the the Beta rules. Things have changed since then and some may have changed significantly.

The only "Identify" in my book is a spell on page 299 and I previously quoted the text to you.

What Pathfinder did with skills is remove cross-class skills. Class skills are now "favored skills" and you get a +3 bonus on all that you put ranks into it. And you can never have more ranks in a skill than you have hit dice. [Whew that's pretty much what you said...]

More confusing is that you already noted which skills Tinker's receive as Class skills and UMD is not on that list. They get the following as Class skills:" all Craft skills, Disable Device, Knowledge (Engineering), and Stealth." Since Tinkers only have a maximum of 4 hit dice: at best they could 14 skill points (8 for 1st level, 2 for each additional HD). Tinkers only get 4 ranks in UMD at best [with Int 10 they don't get any skill bonuses]. Considering that even to use a wand is DC 20, odds aren't looking so good for the Tinker using a wand. Are you sure this is so badly broken? Odds of a Tinker failing to use the wand are fairly high [needs a 16 or better to succeed on a d20]. And that is the best it can do. At 1 hit die, it gets one rank in UMD and needs to roll 19 or better to succeed on UMD to use a wand. It's really a waste of a skill point. That is even assuming there is a wand to use and that some spellcaster hasn't claimed it first. If I were in a party that included a clockworker, I'd make pretty darn sure neither he nor his clockwork minion nor his tinker got its hands on a magical device. Save that for the bard, rogue or sorcerer. BTW, I've never quite figured out why UMD isn't a class skill for wizards but I suppose it's to make them cast spells instead of using items.

Int —, but under under skills it would list the racial skills only. Tinkers get a +4 racial bonus on the following skills: Disable Device, Knowledge (Engineering) and Stealthy. They still get the size bonus to Stealthy. Does that fix the problem any better? It also gets rid of the pesky Intelligent Construct at first level. It is kinda unbalancing to allow a 1st level character have access to an intelligent construct, especially since he or she is also getting a clockwork minion.

Just some ideas to throw your way...

Technically this is incorrect. They have a size bonus not a racial bonus.

Debby

I'm sorry I forgot they came out with the hard cover, I'm not the group member who's getting/got it. My group started this game using the beta rules and we're SLOWLY making changes over to the new core rules (provided we like them) little by little. We're fine tooth combing them for inconsistencies and just crap we don't like. My Bad. :smallredface:

Tinkers get 5 hit dice eventually; 1 HD base +1 at 1st, 7th, 13th, 17th level. And you are forgetting about the "Program" ability. This adds a +2 Racial skill bonus to any skill the Tinker is eligible to take. That means ANY skill, even UMD. So if you put it's racial into UMD you could get its total mod up to 4 at first level (2 for HD plus 2 racial). At 7th level you get another HD for the tinker and another program progression that makes it 7 (3 for HD plus 4 racial). If you wanted to use another program at 10th level that's 9 or you can wait it out and just add skill ranks as you get HD. Keep in mind they are only getting the construct 2 + int mod. So they are only going to have a very few amount of skill ranks. You have to be very specific in what you put them in for the Tinker to be effective in it's ability.

I hate to say it but it's all very much Order of the Stick with Vaarsuvius. :vaarsuvius: The familiar is 'there' but no one pays attention to it unless there's some pressing reason to, and 9 times out of 10 there's no reason.

Let's face it, you could teach a monkey familiar to tap you with a wand when you dropped, or feed you a potion. And by the end of the familiar's career it has an intelligence of 15. That means that the familiar could use a good number of magic devices on it's own anyway, and since swinging that wand around trying to get it working could be construed as 'activate blindly' a mage with a number of ranks in UMD could have his familiar tagging him with the wand anyway .... OR running around with a wand of fireballs making things go >FWOOSH<

I think it's because the only magic devices they would need to use it on are divine ones. Everything else falls under their spell list: wands, staves, 1/2 the scrolls out there.

Your fix unfortunately doesn't fix anything. They need to be able to take ranks in the Int based Craft and knowledge skills and w/o an Int score they can't. It doesn't make sense for them to be able to give a +2 on craft skills if they can't take those skills in the first place. Stealth really isn't a concern. They could be all glowing and shiny lose the +12 size to stealth because of it and it wouldn't really matter. What does matter are the Craft and Knowledge skills. Racial bonuses are not Ranks, you have to have ranks in knowledge skills to make the roll, even if you have a racial bonus.

Just because something 'can' technically attack doesn't mean it's a good idea for it. You don't send your familiar into combat like ever. It's bad business there. No wizard I've ever played or seen played has ever used their familiar to deliver touch spells, pulling any/all of it's offensive capability is no big deal. Defensive capability is still totally viable, feeding people potions, etc.

So I built a different kind of bonus structure for the 'familiar' that is the Tinker. No sharing spells, no touch spells, Clockworker doesn't get spells; but more skill bonuses. And I go out of my way to make sure people in the game know it's there doing it's thing to give the +2 bonus for being 'the perfect tool', and making aid another checks to aid it's master in the skills it's capable of. The tinker is much more a part of the game than a note on the sheet this way. Something I've always hated about the familiar. :smallfrown:

DeadEnded~

DracoDei
2009-09-23, 01:17 PM
I wouldn't think that not having a slam would disallow attack actions...

DeadEnded
2009-09-23, 01:19 PM
I wouldn't think that not having a slam would disallow attack actions...

In the description it says it can't attack, I even edited it to say no offensive actions.

It's to keep it balanced: No toothpick sized staves of power running around in the hands of the Tinker.

Though I think my next wizard is going to make all his staves toothpick sized....

DE~

letdragonslie
2009-09-23, 02:35 PM
concerning fly.

Do you guys realize that the only classes that get fly are the ones most likely NOT to use it?

Wizards do not use fly as often as one would think simply because they typically have a fighter in front of them, and attack at range.

Fighters almost always rely on wizards for the fly spell, which is where it truely is useful. Wizards have so many other forms of movement.

Druids and clerics NEVER get the fly spell. Which the minion is. He is a melee attack type.

If you look at the levels that Sorc's get fly as an ability, much like the clockworker, level 6 should not be an option.

The pathfinder game shows Sorc at min. getting the fly ability at level 10 for a certain amount of time, or just fly forever at 15.

This shows me that a class that can fly as an ability is rated much higher than a spell.

Combine that with the fact the classes that get fly as a spell typically have less use for it than the other spell casting classes, or melee types, should be the baseline for when the minion recieves the ability to fly.

There is a reason it is so hard for fighter types to fly (that includes druids), and the thought that a druid can turn into a bird is not an arguement, simply because it's melee attack option is limited then.


Melee types have no business flying at lower levels.

also this ability is providing TWO fly abilities. one for the clockworker and the minion.

another major thing about this fly ability is it can not be dispeled, which is another reason why abilities are rated MUCH higher than the spell.

7th level is before any other class in the game gets flight as an ability. and the classes that get the flight as an ability are either A) a spell casting class which can "cast fly". Or the dragon disicple which is a class based on getting dragon abilities early and this eve beats that at 7th level.

DeadEnded
2009-09-23, 03:26 PM
concerning fly.

Do you guys realize that the only classes that get fly are the ones most likely NOT to use it?

Wizards do not use fly as often as one would think simply because they typically have a fighter in front of them, and attack at range.

Fighters almost always rely on wizards for the fly spell, which is where it truely is useful. Wizards have so many other forms of movement.

Druids and clerics NEVER get the fly spell. Which the minion is. He is a melee attack type.

If you look at the levels that Sorc's get fly as an ability, much like the clockworker, level 6 should not be an option.

The pathfinder game shows Sorc at min. getting the fly ability at level 10 for a certain amount of time, or just fly forever at 15.

This shows me that a class that can fly as an ability is rated much higher than a spell.

Combine that with the fact the classes that get fly as a spell typically have less use for it than the other spell casting classes, or melee types, should be the baseline for when the minion recieves the ability to fly.

There is a reason it is so hard for fighter types to fly (that includes druids), and the thought that a druid can turn into a bird is not an arguement, simply because it's melee attack option is limited then.


Melee types have no business flying at lower levels.

also this ability is providing TWO fly abilities. one for the clockworker and the minion.

another major thing about this fly ability is it can not be dispeled, which is another reason why abilities are rated MUCH higher than the spell.

7th level is before any other class in the game gets flight as an ability. and the classes that get the flight as an ability are either A) a spell casting class which can "cast fly". Or the dragon disicple which is a class based on getting dragon abilities early and this eve beats that at 7th level.

The Clockworker can't pass his 'flight' on to anyone else. It costs him money and time to create a flying harness. Casters get their spells and they are ready for action, the clockworker takes some time to build his stuff.

Oh and the druid can fly better than anyone else, Wildshape says so.

Any Melee type can buy a potion of fly. Several actually. And any DM that says they are 'unavailable' is railroading unless there is a major plot reason there are none. Like war, extreme famine, plague, etc.

DE~

DeadEnded
2009-09-23, 04:07 PM
Due to circumstances beyond my control, I may not have internet in the next few days. I will keep everyone posted.

Battlesong72
2009-09-24, 11:23 AM
The minion is supposed to be underpowered otherwise it's unbalancing. They don't breathe or need to sleep unlike familiars or animal companions; they aren't affected by poison and disease; they have a far greater affect in game as far as combat goes. When was the last time a standard familiar or animal companion was really viable in a battle? Most of the time, the wizard or druid is sending them away for their own safety. Moreover, the clockworker has both a Tinker and a Clockwork minion at his disposal. Additionally, I'm beginning to think the Tinker should get a single slam attack even if it is really weak. Even diminutive constructs should have a single attack.

This becomes the crux of the issue with trying to work with this class. The Minion NEEDS to be better than an animal companion by a lot. The minion is not a throwaway ability like an animal companion or familiar, it is the primary ability of the class. This means it needs to be much closer to cohort power level. Between this and all of the static abilities, I am still not sure we can make this class viable the way DE envisions it. Nothing in D&D game design was ever intended to work with static abilities for basically the entirety of a class' progression.

Playtesting will tell what we have currently, but this is going to need to be tested in multiple games, and we are going to need more than one starting at 1st level. It just so happens for the game I'm running and the world we are in, 6th level was a more appropriate starting point.

Battlesong

Battlesong72
2009-09-24, 12:07 PM
More on the breath weapon guns. DE, you know how much I respect your opinion, and I'm sure you know how much I also respect Stas' opinion. On this matter, however, I do not agree. There is a purpose for the calculations to be 10+ for a 20 lvl class, this keeps most save numbers balanced out- good saves for the most part in front of the bubble and bad saves for the most part just behind the bubble. The extra 5 is not a little bump, especially not when building via point buy, and not when looking at monster saves. Especially considering that both you and your minion can be running around with breath weapons.

Battlesong

DeadEnded
2009-09-24, 01:32 PM
More on the breath weapon guns. DE, you know how much I respect your opinion, and I'm sure you know how much I also respect Stas' opinion. On this matter, however, I do not agree. There is a purpose for the calculations to be 10+ for a 20 lvl class, this keeps most save numbers balanced out- good saves for the most part in front of the bubble and bad saves for the most part just behind the bubble. The extra 5 is not a little bump, especially not when building via point buy, and not when looking at monster saves. Especially considering that both you and your minion can be running around with breath weapons.

Battlesong

Then let's knock a die off the recharge time. 2d4 instead of 3.

Battlesong72
2009-09-24, 02:19 PM
Why, exactly, do you think they are underpowered as written at 10+?

DeadEnded
2009-09-24, 02:22 PM
Why, exactly, do you think they are underpowered as written at 10+?

I didn't, I was listening to Stas. The only thing I really don't like how long the thing takes to charge. I think it should get a something for 3d4 rounds. So if you want to set it at 10+ can I get it down to 2d4?

Battlesong72
2009-09-24, 04:12 PM
The purpose of the 3d4 recharge time was to minimize the ability to use the weapons more than once in a combat, especially as you have the ability to have 3 of these things at one time. I don't see lowering the save dc as a good tradeoff for increasing the ability to use these multiple times per combat.

This also reminds me. All of this equipment needs weights listed for it. It also needs to be clarified that firing the breath weapon guns is still firng a weapon and provokes AoO

Battlesong

DeadEnded
2009-09-24, 04:24 PM
The purpose of the 3d4 recharge time was to minimize the ability to use the weapons more than once in a combat, especially as you have the ability to have 3 of these things at one time. I don't see lowering the save dc as a good tradeoff for increasing the ability to use these multiple times per combat.

This also reminds me. All of this equipment needs weights listed for it. It also needs to be clarified that firing the breath weapon guns is still firng a weapon and provokes AoO

Battlesong

I have no problem with the gun going off more than once a combat. Something with a breath weapon can usually do it a significantly larger number of times per combat.

As for having 3 different guns, it's like having 3 different wands. I can use a wand every round, not every Xd4 rounds. Sure it's charged and you get 50 shots with it, but that's the trade off no charges = Xd4 rounds between use.

In fact the only reason I did it the way I did was to lessen the cost of having the damn thing. Made it easier money wise on a class that is already spending every copper it gets on upkeeping it's abilities.

Battlesong72
2009-09-25, 10:37 AM
Yes, a breath weapon can POTENTIALLY go off multiple times during a combat. If you take all 3 of the breakthroughs, you can almost guarantee the equivalent of 3 breath weapons every combat, and you can do it in 3 consecutive rounds without fail, and you can make the weapons for your minion, which can effectively give 6 breath weapon shots in one combat without worrying about any recharge rate. I think this warrants limiting the effectiveness of each individual gun. I understand your character may not take all 3 of the breakthroughs, but we have to look at the potential, and balance based on that.

You should not mention anything about the cost on these. You are getting these weapons MUCH cheaper than any equivalent wand would cost, and you do not have to worry about charges. These are an amazing bargain where they are set. Again, playtestable, but these may turn out to be broken.

Battlesong

Battlesong72
2009-09-25, 11:10 AM
In fact the only reason I did it the way I did was to lessen the cost of having the damn thing. Made it easier money wise on a class that is already spending every copper it gets on upkeeping it's abilities.

I disagree somewhat with this statement. Yes, you have cost for creating some of your items, but once created your upkeep cost is minimal for everything outside of the minion. How much this is going to effect your character's wealth is going to be interesting moving forward. But really 4 GP for 20 better bullets, while expensive is not overwhelming. There is no reload cost for the e-weapon, no recharge or reload cost for the breath wepon guns, no cost for any of the bombs, and no upkeep cost on any of the other equipment. Most of these are the equivalent of continual use magic items which are exceedingly expensive. Again, this is the reason for the playtesting, but I am not sure you are going to be as affected as you think.

Battlesong

DeadEnded
2009-09-25, 01:50 PM
Yes, a breath weapon can POTENTIALLY go off multiple times during a combat. If you take all 3 of the breakthroughs, you can almost guarantee the equivalent of 3 breath weapons every combat, and you can do it in 3 consecutive rounds without fail, and you can make the weapons for your minion, which can effectively give 6 breath weapon shots in one combat without worrying about any recharge rate. I think this warrants limiting the effectiveness of each individual gun. I understand your character may not take all 3 of the breakthroughs, but we have to look at the potential, and balance based on that.

You should not mention anything about the cost on these. You are getting these weapons MUCH cheaper than any equivalent wand would cost, and you do not have to worry about charges. These are an amazing bargain where they are set. Again, playtestable, but these may turn out to be broken.

Battlesong

So a character can never use a wand more than once per combat?

Here's a complete rewrite for the all of the 'breath weapon' guns:


Flame Thrower- You've designed and built a flame thrower. This weapon fires as a standard action usable every 1d4 rounds. The weapon deals 1d6 fire damage per two levels to a 30' cone. Reflex save for half damage DC = 10 + ½ Class level + Dexterity Modifier. Cost to build 1676g. This gun weighs 5lbs and due to the nature of this weapon, only someone who is the same race, class and alignment can use it, your minion is considered all of these for the purposes of using this weapon.

Freeze Ray- You have created and designed a freeze ray. This Weapon fires a ray of energy at your target (ranged touch) as a standard action every 1d4 rounds. The ray deals 1d4 per 2 class levels of damage and the target must make a fortitude save DC = 10 + ½ Class level + Intelligent Modifier, or be Held for 1d4 rounds as though a Hold (person/monster/undead/etc.) was used on it. Creatures Immune to cold are immune to this weapon. Cost to build 1676g. This gun weighs 5lbs and due to the nature of this weapon, only someone who is the same race, class and alignment can use it, your minion is considered all of these for the purposes of using this weapon.

Lightning Gun- You've built a lightning gun. This weapon fires a beam of electricity 5' wide and 60' long at your target as a standard action every 1d4 rounds. The beam deals 1d6 electricity damage per 2 class levels, Reflex Save for half damage DC 10 + ½ Class level + Dexterity Mod. Cost to build 1676g. This gun weighs 5lbs and due to the nature of this weapon, only someone who is the same race, class and alignment can use it, your minion is considered all of these for the purposes of using this weapon.

Cost of this weapon is now comparable to a 3rd level wand. Lessened by 75% because of: Race, Class, Alignment. This is based on the Pathfinder 3rd level wand cost and the DMG "behind the curtain: magic item gold piece costs" page 282. 30% for alignment, 30% for class, and 15% for race.

Battlesong72
2009-09-25, 05:01 PM
So a character can never use a wand more than once per combat?

Here's a complete rewrite for the all of the 'breath weapon' guns:


Flame Thrower- You've designed and built a flame thrower. This weapon fires as a standard action usable every 1d4 rounds. The weapon deals 1d6 fire damage per two levels to a 30' cone. Reflex save for half damage DC = 10 + ½ Class level + Dexterity Modifier. Cost to build 1676g. This gun weighs 5lbs and due to the nature of this weapon, only someone who is the same race, class and alignment can use it, your minion is considered all of these for the purposes of using this weapon.

Freeze Ray- You have created and designed a freeze ray. This Weapon fires a ray of energy at your target (ranged touch) as a standard action every 1d4 rounds. The ray deals 1d4 per 2 class levels of damage and the target must make a fortitude save DC = 10 + ½ Class level + Intelligent Modifier, or be Held for 1d4 rounds as though a Hold (person/monster/undead/etc.) was used on it. Creatures Immune to cold are immune to this weapon. Cost to build 1676g. This gun weighs 5lbs and due to the nature of this weapon, only someone who is the same race, class and alignment can use it, your minion is considered all of these for the purposes of using this weapon.

Lightning Gun- You've built a lightning gun. This weapon fires a beam of electricity 5' wide and 60' long at your target as a standard action every 1d4 rounds. The beam deals 1d6 electricity damage per 2 class levels, Reflex Save for half damage DC 10 + ½ Class level + Dexterity Mod. Cost to build 1676g. This gun weighs 5lbs and due to the nature of this weapon, only someone who is the same race, class and alignment can use it, your minion is considered all of these for the purposes of using this weapon.

Cost of this weapon is now comparable to a 3rd level wand. Lessened by 75% because of: Race, Class, Alignment. This is based on the Pathfinder 3rd level wand cost and the DMG "behind the curtain: magic item gold piece costs" page 282. 30% for alignment, 30% for class, and 15% for race.

First: Yes, a character can use a wand more than once per combat, but wands are limited by price and charges. When first bought, wands tend to be used a lot, but they are more reined in as you get low on charges. Not to mention, you hardly ever see a character blowing through 3 wands in a combat.

Second: Why do you do this? Instead of waiting for the discussion to play out, you update the equipment. I preferred it the previous way, and I don't care how you play with the price, I am not going to allow these to be used every 1d4 rounds in my game. I believe the only creature that gets their breath weapon every 1d4 rounds is the dragon, and I am not using them as a benchmark for anything. I was not stating that you had to increase the price in my previous posts, just that our playtesting may very well prove that necessary, but if playtesting proved that to be necessary as previously written, improving the guns would require an exponential price increase.

Battlesong

DeadEnded
2009-09-25, 05:50 PM
First: Yes, a character can use a wand more than once per combat, but wands are limited by price and charges. When first bought, wands tend to be used a lot, but they are more reined in as you get low on charges. Not to mention, you hardly ever see a character blowing through 3 wands in a combat.

Second: Why do you do this? Instead of waiting for the discussion to play out, you update the equipment. I preferred it the previous way, and I don't care how you play with the price, I am not going to allow these to be used every 1d4 rounds in my game. I believe the only creature that gets their breath weapon every 1d4 rounds is the dragon, and I am not using them as a benchmark for anything. I was not stating that you had to increase the price in my previous posts, just that our playtesting may very well prove that necessary, but if playtesting proved that to be necessary as previously written, improving the guns would require an exponential price increase.

Battlesong

First: I limited the cost by price. Charges is a little wonky. You could have it charged, but that then messed with a number of things such as a 'caster level' and a number of other things I didn't want to deal with. As well as making the class have to pay repeatedly for a class ability. There's a feat that lets you use two wands per round in combat. Much more effective than a two handed weapon you can use once ever Xd4 rounds.

Someone with a wand of lightning could drop one EVERY round. Sure they'll eventually run out but how long will that take? They start with 50 charges, and quite frankly in the grand scheme of things wands are cheap. 11,250gp for a 3rd level wand at high levels is really a drop in the bucket. Even if you get it set up as a 10th level caster (30,000gp by DMG)

Second: Cause I had an idea. Pretty much what started this the whole thing in the first place. :smallbiggrin: And if you check the first page it's not updated. This is a 'what do you think of this' kind of thing.

And I have a problem with the wait time, 3d4 rounds is WAY too long, for me. And as I want to work it out to something acceptable for me and you as player and DM posting my idea seemed a good plan.

Also there are a number of other creatures out there that have breath weapons that 'reload' just as quick as the dragon.

Chimera = 1d4
Digester = 1d4
Dragon Turtle = 1d4
Dragonne = 1d4 (it's a roar, but works like b/w)
Gorgon = 1d4
Hell Hound = 2d4
Hydra = 1d4 (pyro/cryo)
Mephits = 1d4 (all of them)
Winter Wolf = 1d4

This is just the ones from the first monster manual that have a d4 (or 2d4) as a 'reload' time. Everything else had a one time per day or once per hour or a flat number of rounds till recharge.

I wouldn't mind discussing a flat number of rounds as a recharge time.

You'll have to pardon my shortness with dealing with things right now, I've a lot of real life issues that need to be addressed.

Battlesong72
2009-09-28, 12:16 PM
Stas had an idea via e-mail that may be a good compromise. We move the recharge rate to once every 2d4 rounds, but you cannot use any of the breath weapon guns until the recharge time has passed. This I can work with. The other thing to think of when discussing the creatures that have breath weapons: do any of them have another potent long range attack to fall back on while waiting for the weapon to recharge, or in the case of the minion, a plethora of abilities to fall back on. Also look at the damage on the breath weapon on all of those outside of the dragon.

Battlesong

DeadEnded
2009-09-28, 04:12 PM
Chimera = 1d4
Digester = 1d4
Dragon Turtle = 1d4
Dragonne = 1d4 (it's a roar, but works like b/w)
Gorgon = 1d4
Hell Hound = 2d4
Hydra = 1d4 (pyro/cryo)
Mephits = 1d4 (all of them)
Winter Wolf = 1d4

Chimera - Int 4 none
Digester - Int 2 none
Dragon Turtle - Int 12 Capsize Boat
Dragonne - Int 6 Pounce (full attack on charge), flight
Gorgon - Int 2 none
Hell Hound - Int 6 none
Hydra - Int 2 Multiple heads up to 24
Mephits - Int 6 Various spell-like abilities based on element
Winter Wolf - Int 9 None

Dragon - Int 6 - 33 Spells and spell-like abilities, flight

The higher the intelligence the more likely the monster to have more than one long range sustainable ability.

If we want to use Stas's idea then I've got a rewrite the breakthrough to make all of the types have the same recharge time. Not a problem, just give me a few mintues, I'll edit this out when I'm done.


Breakthrough:
Elemental Cannon: You've designed and built a weapon that harnesses one of the 4 classical elements. The cost to build this weapon is 500gp and it weighs 7lbs. This weapon fires as a standard action and takes 4 rounds to recharge before firing again. You may choose this Breakthrough more than once, each time picking a different element and costing 250gp to add to the Cannon.

Acid - This weapon deals 1d6 Acid damage per 2 class levels in a line 5' wide and 60' long. Reflex Save for half damage DC 15 + ½ Class level + Dexterity Mod.

Flame - The weapon deals 1d6 fire damage per two levels to a 30' cone. Reflex save for half damage DC = 10 + ½ Class level + Dexterity Modifier.

Cold - This weapon fires a ray of energy at your target (ranged touch). The ray deals 1d4 per 2 class levels of damage and the target must make a fortitude save DC = 10 + ½ Class level + Intelligent Modifier, or be Held for 1d4 rounds as though a Hold (person/monster/undead/etc.) was used on it. Creatures Immune to cold are immune to this weapon.

Electricity - This weapon deals 1d6 electricity damage per 2 class levels in a line 5' wide and 60' long. Reflex Save for half damage DC 15 + ½ Class level + Dexterity Mod.

How about that, no rolling for recharge it's a flat 4 rounds. It's only one gun and you add different types you can fire making the single recharge time plausible.

DeadEnded~

Battlesong72
2009-09-28, 05:03 PM
So, seriously, outside of (I think) 2 mephits and the dragons, none of them have a viable long range weapon outside of the breath weapon. Of course dragons, as the epitomy, should be a different in this regard. I think Stas' idea isa good compromise for these weapons.

DeadEnded
2009-09-28, 05:06 PM
So, seriously, outside of (I think) 2 mephits and the dragons, none of them have a viable long range weapon outside of the breath weapon. Of course dragons, as the epitomy, should be a different in this regard. I think Stas' idea isa good compromise for these weapons.

The post has a reworked gun 3 into one so that's a viable option.

It's now one gun you can get more than one ability for.

Mangles
2009-09-29, 07:03 AM
I now am trying to play this class in a PbP game. Though i am having trouble working out what skills the tinker has. Is there anywhere this is said and i am missing

also reading through the class


Explosive- other stuff - Damage 1d4 per 2 class levels to 5' radius; Reflex for half DC: 15 + ½ Class level + Dex Mod.


Big Bang- Damage 1d8 to 10' radius. Reflex for half DC: 15 + ½ Class level + Dex Mod.

after level 4 big bang has less damage than explosive.

DeadEnded
2009-09-29, 02:56 PM
I now am trying to play this class in a PbP game. Though i am having trouble working out what skills the tinker has. Is there anywhere this is said and i am missing

also reading through the class





after level 4 big bang has less damage than explosive.

The skills for tinker are listed under the spoiler for it. Here's the list for convenience:
Skills - Chosen by the Clockworker when built. All Craft skills, Disable Device, Knowledge (Engineering), and Stealth are considered 'class' skills.

And the Explosive is a typo, it should be 1d8/2 class levels. Here's the write up for Explosive and Big Bang:
Explosive- You can create a small explosive on the fly with bits from your equipment and things lying around you, you can make one per 2 class levels every morning. These explosives are unstable and become inert after 1 day. As a standard action you can throw an explosive. Explosive - Range Increment 10' Damage 1d4 per 2 class levels to 5' radius; Reflex for half DC: 10 + ½ Class level + Dex Mod. Due to the nature of this weapon, only your or your minion are capable of wielding it with any efficacy. Hell you doubt anyone could even find the 'on' switch.

Big Bang- You've built small bombs before, but now you've got the hang of it. You can create a small explosive every morning with bits from your equipment and things lying around you. You can create one explosive per two class levels you have every morning. These explosives are unstable and become inert after 1 day. As a standard action you can throw an explosive. Explosive - Range Increment 10' Damage 1d8 per 2 class levels to 10' radius. Reflex for half DC: 10 + ½ Class level + Dex Mod. You must have the Explosive Breakthrough and be 10th level to take this Advanced Breakthrough.

If you get it into a PbP game post the thread here, I'd like to keep up on that :D

Also I'd love to see your sheet.

DeadEnded~

Mangles
2009-09-29, 06:18 PM
certainly will post it here once done. What i meant with the skills is how many the tink gets or is there a standard for this.

DeadEnded
2009-09-29, 06:21 PM
certainly will post it here once done. What i meant with the skills is how many the tink gets or is there a standard for this.

OH it's as per a construct out of the MM 2+Int Mod per HD. You'll have 2 HD at first level and 4 skill points.

Seems I need to put that in the description.

Mangles
2009-09-29, 07:18 PM
sorry if this seems dumb but looking through the MM it keeps mentioning constructs but i can't ever see any basic stats for them, would u mind telling me the page number

DeadEnded
2009-09-29, 07:19 PM
sorry if this seems dumb but looking through the MM it keeps mentioning constructs but i can't ever see any basic stats for them, would u mind telling me the page number

It's in the glossary, an appendix in the back. P307

Mangles
2009-09-29, 07:21 PM
also could two clock workers modify each others minions with breakthroughs using the prices listed under clockwork soldier

DeadEnded
2009-09-29, 07:24 PM
also could two clock workers modify each others minions with breakthroughs using the prices listed under clockwork soldier

That hasn't come up but I'm going to go with no.

Your minion's working are much to personal and intricate to be worked on by someone else. They would only be able to repair the minion/soldier, not upgrade it.


Good question.

Mangles
2009-09-30, 08:09 AM
sorry for all these questions but im sure i will bug you quite alot more while creating this character

for the breakthrough pistols, do i need any craft feats or skills in order to create it

also what is the craft cost/dc of arrows, none of the online material has much information on crafting.

Looking at the clockworker items also, do they all require the craft wondrous item feat

DeadEnded
2009-09-30, 02:19 PM
sorry for all these questions but im sure i will bug you quite alot more while creating this character

for the breakthrough pistols, do i need any craft feats or skills in order to create it

also what is the craft cost/dc of arrows, none of the online material has much information on crafting.

Looking at the clockworker items also, do they all require the craft wondrous item feat

First off, you're not bothering me at all with the questions, they're helping me put everything in order. Some stuff that I assume everyone will know may need to be written out (like the skill point stuff for the tinker) and other stuff my be just confusing and need a clarity rewrite. Any questions you may have are going to help me a lot.

Here's your answers:
Everything other than minion stuff is Craft(Weapons). There are no breakthroughs that require Craft(Armor) but there's no reason not to take it, it'll most definitely help with costs later when you can make magic stuff.

Anything minion related is the repair ability and uses Craft(Construct). Minion takes damage? Craft Construct. Changing the minions size or Special Abilities? Craft Construct. Building clockwork soldiers? Craft Construct.

For an actual DC for building things, there's a formula in the craft skill for the amount of copper or silver of the item's worth you create. Once you create enough SP/CP to cover the total cost of the item, you've created the item.

From the pathfinder book: SP is per week of work, CP is per day of work.

1. Find Item Price in SP. (20 bullets = 1gp = 10sp)
2. Find DC on page 59 (of the beta pdf. In this case 'arrow' isn't there so we set the DC = 15)
3. Pay 1/3 the item's price in raw materials (3sp)
4. Make Craft(weapons) roll. DC x Successful Roll = number of SP of the item you've created. If your total is double you've made the weapon in half the time. Total triples you've make weapon in on third the time and this cut in time scales as you increase the multiple.
If you fail the roll by 5 you ruin the materials.
For building additional Pistols or Rifles, the DC is 15. (I've added that to the description.)

Breakthroughs are considered to have been worked on like wizard spells between levels you get them at. (see the new breakthrough write up addition for a better explanation).

The items from here:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6775441&postcount=4, are a yes.
You would need Craft Wondrous Item feat and 7th level to create any of these, except the coffee itself and the book listed last. The machine makes the coffee on it's own. You would need Craft Wondrous Item to build the Coffee Machine itself though. All you need to be is a Clockworker of 10th level to create the book.

Keep those questions coming, they're helping me rewrite the confusing parts of the original write up :smallbiggrin:

I can't wait to see this character *does his little happy dance*

DeadEnded~

Demons_eye
2009-09-30, 08:35 PM
Sorry if its been asked/ says it some were but I cant find it. Can you have more then one of them? A minion that is?

DeadEnded
2009-09-30, 10:19 PM
Sorry if its been asked/ says it some were but I cant find it. Can you have more then one of them? A minion that is?

No, the MINION is unique.

You can create other clockwork soldiers just like any other golem. They require all the feats to do so, the clockworker is considered to have the 'craft construct' feat and can pick up the other two with normal feats or the bonus craft feats the class gets at certain levels.

A clockworker still can't make anything till 7th level when it gets the 'strange contraption' ability allowing it to make magic items without spells.

The clockwork soldier is under the last spoiler tag in the first post with all the explanation for how adding breakthroughs and other abilities to it works. The largest problem with the soldier is the lack of skills etc. that keep it moving with the party. That's why the Minion is unique and gets the racial skill bonuses with the program ability (same with the tinker).

The clockwork soldier golem is really useful if you're building an army, or want to put a few in your dungeon / workshop / lab to keep adventurers and annoying small children from touching your stuff. They don't travel over the crazy terrain that adventurers cover very well without the climb and acrobatics(jump) skills.

That and they're damned expensive. On it's own 10k just to build; plus any modifications the clockworker adds cost money usually in the 7k+ minimum, and the clockworker would need to have the breakthrough to add it to the minion.

Hope that helps, keep those questions coming. It really does help me get things worded correctly.

DeadEnded~

Mangles
2009-10-02, 12:05 AM
uh just going back to construct traits and its skills its 2+int per hit die and also 2+int * 4 on the first hit die so for level 1 you get 2*4 + 2 = 10 skill points

EDIT + 2 racial

DeadEnded
2009-10-02, 12:13 AM
uh just going back to construct traits and its skills its 2+int per hit die and also 2+int * 4 on the first hit die so for level 1 you get 2*4 + 2 = 10 skill points

EDIT + 2 racial

Sorry forgot you're using 3.5 not pathfinder, so yes that would be correct.

3.5 skills for the clockworker while I'm at it are:
Appraise(int)
Climb(str)
Craft(int)
Disable Device(dex)
Escape Artist(dex)
Knowledge(all)(int)
Listen(wis)
Profession(wis)
Ride(dex)
Search(wis)
Spot(wis)
Swim(str)

The tinker would get the +12 size bonus on HIDE checks.

I can't wait to see your character keep me posted :smallsmile:

DeadEnded~

Mangles
2009-10-02, 05:07 AM
oh dam i didnt realise this was for a different system...thanks for the additional skills too, although i think ill keep the ones i have. The only problem with the game i'm designing this for is it has alot of other homebrew (including guns which can just be taken with Exotic wep prof (firearm) meaning i wont take the pistol or rifle breakthrough (why use up two things when i can have them both for 1). At this stage the thinking is a Tank of a Clank and my cleric (well with repair checks anyway) tinker rebuilding and riding him at the same time

DeadEnded
2009-10-02, 05:10 AM
oh dam i didnt realise this was for a different system...thanks for the additional skills too, although i think ill keep the ones i have. The only problem with the game i'm designing this for is it has alot of other homebrew (including guns which can just be taken with Exotic wep prof (firearm) meaning i wont take the pistol or rifle breakthrough (why use up two things when i can have them both for 1). At this stage the thinking is a Tank of a Clank and my cleric (well with repair checks anyway) tinker rebuilding and riding him at the same time

AAHH well, I would suggest taking the firearms breakthroughs if only to get the better bullet breakthrough, rifles doing 2d8 damage are awesome.

And the energy weapon breakthroughs have the firearm breakthroughs as preqreqs.

Anywhichway, it's all good. I still can't wait to see this character. Has (s)he got a name yet?

Mangles
2009-10-02, 09:45 AM
hmmm....as it reads at the moment when you take Big bang you still gain the other explosives as well i believe doubling your explosive output when taking the feat (instead of just increasing the damage and DC) is this intentional??

also none of your items have weights?

Mangles
2009-10-02, 10:55 AM
Please feel free to suggest any appropriate items or changes, being 4th level is just too much money to spend although I hope i spent it right.

James Bonney, the clockwork pirate
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=156832

His Clank Boars
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=157127

And little Jack the Tinker
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=157128

Also comments on the characters are good too and the overall feel, hope this lives up to your expectations

DeadEnded
2009-10-02, 03:13 PM
hmmm....as it reads at the moment when you take Big bang you still gain the other explosives as well i believe doubling your explosive output when taking the feat (instead of just increasing the damage and DC) is this intentional??

also none of your items have weights?
Much awesome on your characters!! :smallbiggrin: I get the feeling of a pirate with a James and Jack, as well as the feel of this hulking automaton for Boars.
I suggest you buy armor of some sort. More AC equals a better chance for survival. Just because you can't MAKE 'better bullets' doesn't mean you can't BUY 'better bullets'. There's pricing under the better bullet breakthrough. If you can afford it, buy Jack two or three cure light wounds potions. He's intelligent and you'll be thanking yourself later when you fall down. If you can afford it, get yourself a bracer of holding or a handy haversack. Depending on how much you need to carry or think you're going to carry.

Yes you get more bombs. No I haven't figured out weights yet, other than bullets and some of the weapons. Speaking there of, your 80 bullets weigh 4lbs not 9.

I'm thinking as real grenades weigh in at a little under 1lb, the explosive and big bang are going to weigh the same. I'll have to write it in later.

I don't know if this is intentional or just a misread, but is Jack carrying tools? If he is he doesn't need them, he acts as a tool himself (same bonus as MW tools) for all the skills the 'perfect tool' ability applies to.

I did notice a couple of other discrepancies on your sheets.

Your saves on Boars are off, by 4HD he has a +1 for all his base saves.
You should only have a total +4 racial for boars. It looks like you have +6 racial.
You don't have any skill points spent on Jack your tinker and he gets a bunch.


I think that's everything, let me know how it turns out.
DeadEnded~

Mangles
2009-10-02, 04:37 PM
In regards to the armor she is using a variant which gives James free AC bonus as he progresses that cannot stack with armour, and its +4 at level 4 so didn't see the point of that chain shirt.

I also figured with the masterwork tools that this would stack with Jack, maybe need some clarification there if they don't. (Was loving that +4 from the combination though :P)


Also fixed up weights listed, the missing skills on Jack the extra skills on Boars (which came from his description saying at level 1 he has plus two racial and than adding the programming ability on top of that) and Boars saves.

Just going to have a look over equipment and its done, glad you like it.

DeadEnded
2009-10-03, 03:44 AM
In regards to the armor she is using a variant which gives James free AC bonus as he progresses that cannot stack with armour, and its +4 at level 4 so didn't see the point of that chain shirt.

I also figured with the masterwork tools that this would stack with Jack, maybe need some clarification there if they don't. (Was loving that +4 from the combination though :P)


Also fixed up weights listed, the missing skills on Jack the extra skills on Boars (which came from his description saying at level 1 he has plus two racial and than adding the programming ability on top of that) and Boars saves.

Just going to have a look over equipment and its done, glad you like it.

OOOOO I like that armor variant, don't forget his dodge bonus though, James, Boars, and Jack all get an additional +1 for dodge.

If you recheck the 'perfect tool' entry for the tinker, and the masterwork tools entry in the PHB (or pathfinder) you'll see it's the same kind of bonus, circumstance, and the same type of bonus doesn't stack.

That's a mistake on my end. If you check now it's shows that racial bonus was from the program ability and not an extra bonus. Totally my screw up, sorry about that. *Swats own hand*

Jack's HP is WAY too much for 2d10 HP.

Everything else looks good to me.

EDIT: Bullets on James are 1/2 lb. you've got them listed as 1lb.

Mangles
2009-10-03, 05:48 AM
your right about Jack. I just assumed he progressed the same as boar did. That is my bad there. Have removed the tools except for 1 on James kept on purpose and changed the weights of bullets to 1/2lb per 20. Where does the free +1 dodge bonus come from?

DeadEnded
2009-10-03, 05:52 AM
your right about Jack. I just assumed he progressed the same as boar did. That is my bad there. Have removed the tools except for 1 on James kept on purpose and changed the weights of bullets to 1/2lb per 20. Where does the free +1 dodge bonus come from?

It's part of the class, first ability listed under the level table and it's on the far right of the table as well. It's listed as AC Bonus. I should probably change that to "Dodge" bonus.

You, your minion and tinker get it too, it's much awesome.

stas
2009-10-07, 12:04 PM
Well that was a ticking time bomb for sure. I don't get why the two of you set each other up for pc killing so much. It is like trying to mix oil and water, eventually things come appart.

We will get something started I'm just not sure how soon, likely to be 2 to 3 weeks from now though.

DeadEnded
2009-10-07, 06:10 PM
Well that was a ticking time bomb for sure. I don't get why the two of you set each other up for pc killing so much. It is like trying to mix oil and water, eventually things come appart.

We will get something started I'm just not sure how soon, likely to be 2 to 3 weeks from now though.

I tried my very best.

I am not terribly concerned about it as of right now. What I am concerned about is Mangles character and how he's going to fit in the PbP game he's joining :smallsmile:

His character looks really good and I'm hoping it works out well in the game.

DE~

DeadEnded
2009-10-08, 07:03 PM
Made changes to the Firearm(pistol) and Firearm(rifle) breakthroughs to fall in line with the DMG. A standard action to reload not a move action.

Removed the level restriction on Alloyed Chassis and Rapid Fire breakthroughs, Alloyed Chassis now has no restriction and can be taken any time, Rapid Fire requires one of the firearm breakthroughs and 1 rank in Craft(weapons).

Removed the breathweapon guns and added in the elemental cannon breakthrough.

Added weight by size for the Clockwork Minion, and weight for the Tinker.

I think this is finished, barring play testing it. I don't have any more breakthroughs I'd like to add and I think everything falls in line with the other printed materials in the game.

If anyone has found any loopholes or game breaking flaws in anything please message me with what you have found and I'll see what I can do about fixing the hole or explaining how it's not flawed / broken :smallbiggrin:

I want to thank everyone who's helped me make this class, you know who you are, I really appreciated it a lot.

DeadEnded~