I hope I don't have a problem on my hands [DM issue]

[Milskidasith]

Ok, so I'm going to be DMing for a group of friends. One of my friends has played D&D before, the rest are pretty much new. I'm being generous and giving them 5d6b3 for stats, not because I want to have a high powered campaign but because, for the initial campaign, which I intended to take from level 3 to around 11, maybe adding in a one shot training dungeon from levels 1 to 3. I was also going to play mostly core only, due to my lack of books (I intend to buy some if this group works out.)

However, the friend that has played D&D before has me a bit worried. He wants to play a wizard. Considering the fact that he's the only one with experience and it doesn't even take that to break the game in half, I suggested he play a more reasonable character, like sorcerer focused on blasting, as a compromise. (I would have suggested bard, but for some reason he thinks they are totally horrible, and that it would be better to just have a warrior [yes, he meant the NPC class.]) After a bit of prodding, I convinced him to not play a wizard... but he said that he would play a rogue and he knew how to break the game in half with rogues. Ugh.

He's a pretty good friend, and I don't want to cut him from the group, but I need some kind of way to get him to be reasonable about this. It won't be fun for all my friends if they are outshined by the player who has D&D experience playing the T1 class. He says he's never played a wizard before, which might keep him from being too broken, but I'm still worried.

[Mongoose87]

1. Ask him not to break the game.

2. If he tries it, rocks fall.

[Gorgondantess]

If you're only going to level 11 or so, let 'em play a wizard. They only really become god once you hit 15th or so. And till about lvl 5, a barbarian'll take them down.
And rogues don't get broken too easily- especially not in core- so I think he's just messing with you.

[Milskidasith]

Yeah, I figured he doesn't know what broken really means for rogues, but any kind of strong attempt at optimization is going to invalidate a lot of the other characters.

I still think a wizard is pretty powerful at lower levels; a ton of spells can end encounters easily. However, he seems to be kind of intent on death effects and what he called "useful" spells, which meant... everything that isn't blasty, but I think he was more specifically saying buffs and such. So maybe he'll just be a standard blaster and not hurt the game too much.

[Tequila Sunrise]

Let him play a wizard and ask him not to break the game. Brow beating him into playing his second choice will just motivate him to break the game in a different way, if he's that kind of guy. If he's not that kind of guy, he'll be a good friend and not break the game even as a wizard.

[AslanCross]

You're going to have to go with the gentleman's agreement here. Wizards don't automatically break the game; it's their players who do. I'd just let him go with wizard and keep him under control from there.

(I actually like it when I have a wizard in the party.)

[erikun]

Did he say "I want to break the game" or did he say "I know how to make wizards/rogues really effective"?

Please note that the classic "Batman Wizard" doesn't break encounters by carpetbombing with Finger of Death. They do it by buffing the party and disrupting enemies, so that the rest of the party can kill them off.

I'd say let him play whatever he wants, or get a look at what he's planning before allowing it in the game. If the other players are sticking with core/no PrC, then put the same restrictions on him. Seriously, just restricting the gold/scrolls available will limit his options quite a bit, if that's what you're worried about.

[Sinfire Titan]

If you're only going to level 11 or so, let 'em play a wizard. They only really become god once you hit 15th or so. And till about lvl 5, a barbarian'll take them down.
And rogues don't get broken too easily- especially not in core- so I think he's just messing with you.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Wizards are broken the instant they realize that Magic Missile sucks and Sleep/Color Spray/Charm Person are good spells (and those are arguably weaker than Grease, which can stall even high-level encounters for a full minute if you know what to do with it). It gets worse when they get 2nd level spells, like Glitterdust.


Rogues are fine if they avoid UMD, and even then you can avoid them breaking the campaign by not letting them bypass the WBL. Or MDJ, but DMs who use MDJ unmodified deserve to be shot.

[Milskidasith]

I'm not going to disjunction my players, trust me. If I did, I'd just have it negate magic items for 1 hour/CL or something reasonable.

Edit: I'm going to let him run the wizard, but I'm going to keep my eye on him, especially since he is clearly willing (although possibly not able) to break the game or threaten to in order to get what he wants.

[valadil]

Have you tried asking him nicely to not be a ****?

[aje8]

Look, until he actually breaks the game or something it doesn't seem fair to punish him premtivley.

If he actually uses it to get his way, that's a problem. But honestly if he plays a god wizard the other players will have fun as he won't have a save or die at all since the campagin ends a t lv. 11. Most of his good spells will be battlefeild control buffing and debuffing and that makes the rest of the party feel good even if he's really doing all the heavy lifting.

[Gecks]

Maybe ask him specifically to be the "wise old man of the party"? Something like "Hey, I know you know the system in and out, I was wondering if you wouldn't mind either making a unoptimized build or choosing a "weaker" class so you can stay in the background, you know, kind of deliberately keep out of the limelight and whisper in the ears of these noobs about how the game is played. That way, they'll think they're kicking A** and taking names on their own, and they'll have fun enough fun to become die-hard players themselves. It can just stay between you and me about how much of their success is actually on you- at least, until the next campaign, when they won't need hand-holding and you can build that world-killing wizard you were thinking about."

It may have just been my own good luck, but I've recently started a campaign with a very wide "player experience" spread, and personally I've found using the vets to teach the newbies has been perfect- the vets actually step back and let the newbs shine, and the newbs seem to take advise better from fellow players instead of the DM. I've actually seen vet players with (relatively) optimized builds actually step back and let the newer players take over when they happen come up with a good plan or a neat idea- when initially I was worried that the exact opposite would happen. Just a thought.

[Milskidasith]

I asked him to try to be unoptimized, but so far all I've gotten on his end is him saying he didn't want to play a gimped character or have to sit back because he's too strong, and requests to create specific weapons/spells for him.

[Kylarra]

I'm not seeing the problem unless he's preemptively cheesing out metamagic-ed stuff. Sure spellcasters by default can end most encounters if played a certain way, but that doesn't mean that they will be played to the hilt either. I'd say let him play it for a while and if it turns out to be a problem, address it then, don't penalize him on what you think he might do.

[Milskidasith]

That's the thing; every sign I have is that he's going to be cheesing the game. All his stories about his character involves them being pretty overpowered, he's asked me to create specific spells for him (including something that was essentially finger of death, but a touch spell... and spell level 2), and he's threatened to break the game (with a rogue, granted, so it's kind of an idle threat) if he doesn't get what he wants. He's also good friends with everybody I want to play, so if there is a confrontation I could lose other good RL friends and have no group.

[Kylarra]

That's the thing; every sign I have is that he's going to be cheesing the game. All his stories about his character involves them being pretty overpowered, he's asked me to create specific spells for him (including something that was essentially finger of death, but a touch spell... and spell level 2), and he's threatened to break the game (with a rogue, granted, so it's kind of an idle threat) if he doesn't get what he wants. He's also good friends with everybody I want to play, so if there is a confrontation I could lose other good RL friends and have no group.Well first off, I'd nix any custom spells, but I'm assuming you knew that. :smalltongue:


On the other hand, if he's actively threatened to break the game as blackmail, just drop him from the group. Seriously, it's not worth the effort, and assuming you're also good friends with the rest of the group, they'll understand.

[seedjar]

Alternatively, instead of letting him make you out to be the bad guy, you could just let him stomp all over the game and make an ass out of himself in front of all your mutual friends.
Or, to be nicer about it, just call him out. Have a group talk about character builds during the first session before you get started. His custom spells can be the first topic. You can go over effectiveness in terms of damage-dealt-per-round and the value of build synergy. (Maybe you can find custom spells to give your newbies, too, hehe.) I bet that if the discussion were in front of your friends, he wouldn't dream of threatening you with those ultimatums.
~Joe

[sadi]

No custom spells definitely, I wouldn't allow him anything that would give him extra spell slots either. Preapprove feats and prestige classes, and when in doubt use the line I'm new, I want it fairly simple. And when in doubt use intelligent monsters who use the ready action options, (ready action shoot him with a bow if he starts casting) at worst he needs the rest of the party to block any unfriendlies or spend spell slots on protecting himself.

[Myou]

I strongly advise that you let him play exactly what he wants, and simply make the standard gentleman's agreement with him. Something like "Please don't spoil everyone's fun by dominating the game and abusing flaws in the rules.".

[Kol Korran]

a few things:
1) the player obviously wants to feel powerfull. when you guys play, and when he is succesfull in his tactics, describe things accordingly to let him feel powerfull for a moment. just make sure it doesn't happpen all the time.

2) i'd suggest you disallow any custom items or spells (that way you don't have to explain why you allowed that and not that). and then sit down with the core book (and any other books you may allow) carefully go over spells, and decide what you allow and why not (these you may have to explain). make a ruling, and be done with it. check out the various wizard threads for abuses.

3) in my experience, wizards get broken only when:

played by quite intelligent players
the party plays well to have fore knowledge of the enemies ahead.
most importently: the DM doesn't know how to build adventures to a party that include a wizard


i guess i need to explain a bit about the last bit. when i DMed in 3.5 i tailored my adventures so that a wizard would be effective, but that he must be very carefull with his spelll selection, and usage. a few tried and true aspects of adventure planning (i suggest this in general, but i'll focus on the wizaardy aspects):

time limit: the party can't charge full force, blast away with their best spells, then retreat and rest- too many rests and the villain escapes or finishes it's plan! the party must realise that they need to venture over a certain amount of encounters before they rest to finish on time! an added element could be that the adventure changes the longer the party waits- the enemy could have reinforcements, the villain could gain a level, the guarded treasure in the vault can be transported somewhere the players don't know and so on. put a time pressure. it's one of the most essentials things in adsventures, and with casters especially. suddenly the sorcerer shines!
unknown enemies: at least some of the enemies are totally unknown, not only to the characters, but alkso to the players! these could be homebrewed monsters, or just core creatures for whom you changed appearance and fluff, but not abilities. a caster works best by being able to counter the abilities of creatures, or exploit their weaknesses. but if they meet a creature whom the player can't recognize, then the wizard may be a bit stumped, or choose less then optimal spells. this is mostly true when scouting an enemy camp//whereabouts - "the rogue find several large humanoids with greyish purple fur, a single horn in their forehead, and hooved legs. amongst the camp there are several other beaasties such as... " the humanoids could be ogre mages or whatever, but would the wizard know? suddenly knowledge skills become real usefull. note: don't exagerrate with this. expereinced players like to know they know some of their enemies.
build some of the encounters at every section of the campagin with creatures that challange the normal tactics of the wizard spell selection. he likes grease? have an encounter with giant spiders. he likes glitter dust? have some battle trained blind basilisk fight them (ok, not the best example, but you get my intention). my general suggestion is that in encounters use a mix of enemies, some easely affected bythe wizard, some less. damaging spells might become great once again! look for the quirky creatures, those with a strange ability.
intelligent foes fight inteligently against casters, especially arcane ones: once the caster is identified, have the hobgoblin commander shout something in goblin, and suddenly tow of the back troopers aim their bows at the wizard. ready action- casts a spell- shot with arrows. this is the simplest tactic, there are others, such as a fellow caster casting on the wizards when he casts (and being less affected by mage armor and shield). or the enemies may have specially traiend beasites to target casters, which can use the same actions to interfere with the wizard (this could range from blood hawks, to minor devils such as a quasit or dretch or lemure, to simply hounds. you'd be amazed how simple stirges can be effective even at high levels. just give the critters a mean to by pass the rest of the party)
change battlefields: the common dungeon is BOOOORRRING, and plays all to well to the wizard's hand- fighters can block the enemy getting to him, most rooms ar conveniently large just enough for his spells to catch many enemies at once, and so on. instead- make dungeons with huge rooms, use bridges, cliffs, open areas, battlements, aboard a ship and more. these settings have several effects: first the battle field is more open, so less creatures ar affected by each wizard's spell (10ft radius spells catch one or two at most). secondly, the ruels of the encounter can be used intelligently by either the party or their foes, which is always good, and let fightes shine a bit more when pushing people of cliffs and so on. thirdly- mayn such battles may incur a concentration check in many places, which makes the wizard's and cleric's job a tad harder, if more realistic.


there are probably more things to tell. the rundown is that wizards can be handled, without gimping them, but by challanging them. i'll emphasise the time pressure again. you have no idea how that alters a game from a video game played on table top to an actual roleplay and tactical experience.

let the player play what he will, check out for anything too broken and ban it in advance, and plan your adventures accordingly.

Kol.

[Milskidasith]

Thanks for all the advice; I'll try to keep an eye on him.

As for dropping him from the group, it's essentially impossible; if he goes, then the mutual friends are probably not going to show up, because, not knowing anything about the system at all, I can't exactly argue my case for "he was pretty much threatening to ruin your fun by being really really overpowered if he didn't get his custom goodies and to play a wizard, both of which are also overpowered."

[Myshlaevsky]

Thanks for all the advice; I'll try to keep an eye on him.

As for dropping him from the group, it's essentially impossible; if he goes, then the mutual friends are probably not going to show up, because, not knowing anything about the system at all, I can't exactly argue my case for "he was pretty much threatening to ruin your fun by being really really overpowered if he didn't get his custom goodies and to play a wizard, both of which are also overpowered."

Sorta sounds like blackmail. Is he aware of this and actively using it to try and influence you?

[Milskidasith]

Aware that the entire gaming group would collapse? No, if had any clue that I was close to dropping him, he still probably wouldn't figure out that would destroy the rest of the group. As for threatening to break the game... yeah, he's pretty much trying to get all the goodies he can when he's dealing with people who wouldn't have any clue about the rules.

[Myshlaevsky]

Aware that the entire gaming group would collapse? No, if had any clue that I was close to dropping him, he still probably wouldn't figure out that would destroy the rest of the group. As for threatening to break the game... yeah, he's pretty much trying to get all the goodies he can when he's dealing with people who wouldn't have any clue about the rules.

I think your best bet is to begin the campaign with a warning that you want it to be fun for everyone, and if breaks it or desperately tries to do so you'll just remove him from it. I know he hasn't responded to such advice already, but you're pretty much in a Gordian knot - the only definite way to solve the problem is to cut him out. Ideally you'll be able to counter his powerful role with the advice in this thread, or your other players will begin to enjoy the game and so stay even if he is forced to leave.

Are the players completely new to pen & paper games or is it just D&D?

[Myou]

Aware that the entire gaming group would collapse? No, if had any clue that I was close to dropping him, he still probably wouldn't figure out that would destroy the rest of the group. As for threatening to break the game... yeah, he's pretty much trying to get all the goodies he can when he's dealing with people who wouldn't have any clue about the rules.

A thought strikes me.

Give him everything he wants. All the custom items, all the broken spells. Let him be completely overpowered. Let him be Pun-Pun if he wants.

The others will quickly see that he's hugely overpowered, and he will likely get bored anyway, since he'll be facing unoptimised foe appropriate to the rest of the party. Then you and the others tell him that his character is too good, and none of you can compete, so it's time to retire the character, because no-one has fun with the character around.

Just an idea.

[woodenbandman]

Ask him to play a buffer wizard. If he's the best buffer wizard ever, then at least the party will be mostly balanced with each other. That's the most manageable problem to deal with. It gets outrageous and hard to handle if he's, like, a tippy wizard who kills everything at extra long range.

[Milskidasith]

The thing is, I honestly don't know if my group would get bored if he was overpowered, but I would be supremely bored. I'd either have to optimize encounters to kill him (though I could probably just slap high SR on everything and call it a day), or have everybody else gawk in awe as he kills everybody. And if he figured out that SR: No spells are awesome, then I'd be forced to play monsters that would kill the others instantly just to challenge him.

So, while my group may or may not be annoyed that one player is essentially killing everything for them, I'd find it to be boring and a huge hassle to deal with as a DM (besides the aforementioned SR thing.)

[Myou]

The thing is, I honestly don't know if my group would get bored if he was overpowered, but I would be supremely bored. I'd either have to optimize encounters to kill him (though I could probably just slap high SR on everything and call it a day), or have everybody else gawk in awe as he kills everybody. And if he figured out that SR: No spells are awesome, then I'd be forced to play monsters that would kill the others instantly just to challenge him.

So, while my group may or may not be annoyed that one player is essentially killing everything for them, I'd find it to be boring and a huge hassle to deal with as a DM (besides the aforementioned SR thing.)

If all they do is watch him beat everything then don't you think they'll be bored? :smallconfused:

If you do optimise to challenge him then let them all die against overpowered foes then tell them why it happened - you have to give them such foes to challenge the wizard.

[quick_comment]

Cheat.

You are the DM. Give monsters incredible saves, evasion and mettle. Call it the Tilexu_Ghola-blooded template or whatever.

[Forbiddenwar]

no one has mentioned the easiest way to control a wizard. Control the spells he can learn. almost never drop an arcane scroll. make divine liches so that they can't learn anything good. make him have an IC reason for every spell he has.

Still I agree with given him everything he wants. when the first game is over in 15 minutes, the others may see the player ruining the game and may walk anyway.

It sounds like he doesn't want to play D&D at all. Maybe you shoiuld suggest he watch a movie instead.

[Knaight]

If he really wants to be optimized then simply suggest he help the other players optimize as well, and try to stay at a similar level. Its a reasonable request, and as one who has accidentally optimized way above the rest of the group (with a freaking warlock, and a freaking rogue, in both cases being way too lazy to buy equipment beyond starting character type stuff, in mid level games) a reasonable one. Pointing out that power attack is a good feat to someone playing a barbarian, showing good spells to a spell caster, etc. is often easier than toning things way down.

[Forbiddenwar]

Cheat.

You are the DM. Give monsters incredible saves, evasion and mettle. Call it the Tilexu_Ghola-blooded template or whatever.

There's ths too. If he breaks the game, just kill him. If he asks how, tell him he is dead, he doesn't know how. The only choice is rerolling 1 level behind the rest. If he ends up being 5 levels behind everyone else (game breaking tax) perhaps it will equal out.

in 2nd edition didn't wizards need a LOT more exp in order to level up, compared to the rest of the classes? Perhaps bring that back.

However, don't do anything until the other players seem bored or complain. if all the players are having fun, then don't change anything.

[Forbiddenwar]

The thing is, I honestly don't know if my group would get bored if he was overpowered, but I would be supremely bored.

the DM is a player too. If you're bored than at least one of the player is bored. Here's a thought. If you're bored and no one else is, quit being a DM and let someone else do it. Or if no one else can/will that's your leverage for him to quit the game breaking garbage.

[Milskidasith]

If he really wants to be optimized then simply suggest he help the other players optimize as well, and try to stay at a similar level. Its a reasonable request, and as one who has accidentally optimized way above the rest of the group (with a freaking warlock, and a freaking rogue, in both cases being way too lazy to buy equipment beyond starting character type stuff, in mid level games) a reasonable one. Pointing out that power attack is a good feat to someone playing a barbarian, showing good spells to a spell caster, etc. is often easier than toning things way down.

I'm feeling a little snippy about this post... in the very first post of the topic, I mentioned that I was new to DMing and all the other players except the one playing a wizard were new. I cannot ask all of them to optimize to be as strong as a wizard when none of them know how to play the game, and even if they do I, as a new DM, would rather focus on an interesting story instead of finding ways to make encounters challenging when they can OHKO anything that can't OHKO them first.

[FMArthur]

I know a guy who fits this description perfectly, and he isn't fun to play with at all for a variety of reasons, all of which stem from his power-centric view of the game's purpose. If you think your friend is really like this, play the game, but ditch him later after you've hooked the rest of the group on D&D... if he doesn't ruin it for them completely.

There is no way to make him play the game like a normal person because his enjoyment of the game hinges entirely on being the super-powerful guy who is leagues ahead of the rest of the group. If you try to contain him by giving him a premade character or strictly limited options, he will find other ways to have fun and it will involve the same sort of disruptive behavior as with character creation - without so much as a thought about the rest of the group.

[Susano-wo]

I am not questioning how good of a friend he is in general, but he's being a pretty lousy friend right now. he's blackmailing you with the rogue breaking the game BS, and he appears to be trying to abuse your good nature to get over powered items and spells.

I really think its important now, before it gets any deeper, to tell him that this is not ok. I really think that the idea of having a civil discussion in front of the whole group is right on the money. Talk over with the whole group what you are afraid of RE: his power creating boredom, and tell everyone, on no uncertain terms, that no one (not just Mr. Wizard) will be getting custom spells or items out of the blue. If they want to work with you to research new spells, great. You may end up creating some custom gear for them, but you aren't going to accept "Milskidasith, I want this cool circlet that doubles my spells per day," etc.
[or whatever terms you actually want to put down--that's just along the lines of the terms I would give them]

Also, one last question? What is everyone else playing? How overpowering Mr. Wizard is does partially depend on their power levels.

[Milskidasith]

I have no clue what everybody else is playing; the first "session" is going to be next saturday, and it's mostly going to be me explaining the basics of the game to them. I'm going to expect a wide variety of classes, probably ranging from as bad as Monk to somebody else playing a Druid or something, and none of them are going to be played as effectively as the friends.

[Random NPC]

I find this solution better:

Allow him to play a Wizard with the condition that he teaches every player how to make good optimized powers. That way, everyone's cheesy and nobody will be underpowered.

[Milskidasith]

I find this solution better:

Allow him to play a Wizard with the condition that he teaches every player how to make good optimized powers. That way, everyone's cheesy and nobody will be underpowered.

I find that solution bad for two reasons: One, he's still going to be more powerful than them (They don't even know how to play the game!) and two, I'd rather not have to deal with everybody playing one shot encounter ending characters, because I'd have a hard time challenging them without sending in things that outright kill them.

[Random NPC]

I find that solution bad for two reasons: One, he's still going to be more powerful than them (They don't even know how to play the game!) and two, I'd rather not have to deal with everybody playing one shot encounter ending characters, because I'd have a hard time challenging them without sending in things that outright kill them.


It's possible and there's ways to balance a team out. Wizards are good when you play them as a God/Batman wizard. They become the most powerful characters by making everybody shine. Tell him to go this way when choosing spells, so that everybody is as good as him.

If they are new, introduce Tome of Battle. Chances are, they'll like being this super knight with super techniques. It's hard to make an underpowered character with ToB, as well as an incredibly overpowered character.

Now, building encounters is going to be a pain, so you have to be wary on that. I learned this the hard way...


Another option is to play 4th edition. It's balanced and it's easier to be a DM there. This might feel as a cop-out, but it's gonna be easier when everybody is starting from scratch.

[Milskidasith]

It's possible and there's ways to balance a team out. Wizards are good when you play them as a God/Batman wizard. They become the most powerful characters by making everybody shine. Tell him to go this way when choosing spells, so that everybody is as good as him.

If they are new, introduce Tome of Battle. Chances are, they'll like being this super knight with super techniques. It's hard to make an underpowered character with ToB, as well as an incredibly overpowered character.

Now, building encounters is going to be a pain, so you have to be wary on that. I learned this the hard way...


Another option is to play 4th edition. It's balanced and it's easier to be a DM there. This might feel as a cop-out, but it's gonna be easier when everybody is starting from scratch.

I don't own the ToB, or any books for that matter (neither does the guy who plays it, besides his PHB.) The availability of books is pretty much going to be the one guys PHB and the online SRD. I would definitely get the books if I could, but I don't want to go ahead and buy the books until after I am sure the group is actually going to work.

[Susano-wo]

This is susano's wife posting this time. I had to jump in so bear with me.

I have been a full time GM since 1997.
And I will give you this short spheel of advice.

1.YES make it fun for you too!
Story and depth are what separates your game from an MMO, so tell everyone your focus. And try to make him understand that you want this to be enjoyable for everyone especially since its their first time playing and your first time Gming. Having a struggle like that from the get go will only make your role a headache.

2. Don't take threats.
Just be firm as to not be intimidated, this is supposed to be enjoyable not a tug of war, no one wins if he is being a jerk.

3. Make a set of house rules.
Write and make copies of what you want to throw away (or alter) from the core of 3.5. It puts it out in the open and this way they can refer to it instead of you having to remind them. This includes wizards if you don't feel up to the challenge this time around. *my first game I made the ruling no evil characters or necromancers simply so that I could get grounded with the game without having to deal with PvP conflict. There is no shame in taking it easy your first time*

4. Power gamers are a bitch to balance with non-power gamers.
This is a law written in the Universe. One of my most notorious players has been swallowed by the Dark Powers of Ravenloft, made *literally* a one man tank busting squad in BESM, and his character in another defunct campaign wasn't happy until he was in a higher tier of damage dice then everyone else. (and this is only a couple examples he's a TERRIBLE force)
...BUT...He is also one of the most fun people I have ever played with on his good days, some of his roleplaying is the best I have ever seen. This is the risk you run when playing with your best friends. It will take time to balance your happy medium but it isn't easy...NOT EASY. So have patience with yourself and demand others to be patient of you.

5. Wizards? *shrug*
People make too much out of that. However if you really wanna try this run a short dungeon scenario with a little story flare. Make some level 9-11 characters and play through the dungeon with his monster char. minus the custom spells. See if you can handle it. Call it a practice run and tell him not to hold back. If you see the worst he can throw and you do ok. Then cool have him make his lower level wizard and play through the campaign as planned. IF you don't do alright then tell him to save his character for the next campaign, and go with a lower level base classes minus wizards. After you get the swing of things it will be alot easier and less intimidating. I promise.

[Susano-wo]

One more thing.
You have control over your world.
You think that a given spell is broken, don't make it available.
And a wizard has suck AC and HP for a reason.
You can exploit any power as a weakness in the right situation, you just have to be imaginative...Heck about half the GMs on the planet play to make their PCs wallow in suspense and misery. I'm sure if you put up a second thread asking "how can I exploit wizards" you will have many a happy and devious gm giving you advice.

I would give you some however most of my players are frequenting this forum...I don't want to give anything away hehehe.

And really one thing i just thought of, if you want a less power gamer game I would lower the dice on the initial stat rolls. No offense but 5d6 is asking for war.
ok all done ^^ anything else posted here on out is my husband again :)

[Milskidasith]

The 5d6 thing was mostly because I wanted to go easy on my friends early on, because they probably are going to be pretty ineffective in combat.

[Mystic Muse]

I don't own the ToB, or any books for that matter (neither does the guy who plays it, besides his PHB.) The availability of books is pretty much going to be the one guys PHB and the online SRD. I would definitely get the books if I could, but I don't want to go ahead and buy the books until after I am sure the group is actually going to work.

I have two words for you. Library card.

[Milskidasith]

You know, I *really* don't think that libraries carry D&D sourcebooks. If mine does, I would be very suprised.

[FlawedParadigm]

On the contrary; when I was growing up, we used to play *at* the library, *because* it had all the books we couldn't talk our parents into buying us. Now granted, I grew up in a very metropolitan area which had MUCH better libraries than the ones I live by now, but libraries can be a surprisingly good source of gaming material. We'd just play at one of the side rooms, and so long as no one got loud or anything, we pretty much had free reign.

[Raygereio]

Say up front that any ridiculous broken stuff he pulls to screw your game over, you can do to his character back. Don't threaten with it, just state it and make sure everyone knows it.
If they want to have the touch-of-death or hellball-of-100d6 at level 2? Sure, go ahead; but guess what abilities the second orc they'll come across will have after they used those same abilities to blast the first orc in one round?

In my experience, the moment you do that in the game:
-either they scream foul play and/or accuse you of cheating (even though they did the exact same thing 2 rounds ago)
-or they learn from it.

If the guy is an jerk and not just ignorant (this kind of player usually is), then it will probably the first possiblity. In which case he'll make a fool of himself in front of the other players, so you'll win anyway.

[Kol Korran]

first of all, you can deal with wizards. just take my advice on the previous post and susano-wo's wife advice.

other thant that- many of us are telling you to just be firm with the player about what he can or cannot have. you seem to dislike this, but this is part of your responsebilities as a DM. this is just something you have to do. decide what is allowed. decide what is not, and that's it. he will have to live with it, that is all. be firm.

oh, and i'd suggest to go with point buy instead of a dice roll for attributes. that way no one feels cheated if the dice falls the worng way, and no character is way more powerfull than the rest. i'd suggest 32 point buy if you want them to feel powerfull, though 28 or 30 is fine too. they are new players, they won't realy know the difference.

hope this helps, and again- learn to be firm, there is no way around it.
Kol.

[cenghiz]

I had checked the LogicNinja's guide even though I don't D&D any more. I wasted some time to check the spells too after I was invited to a short game. I applied the guide and everyone had fun.. I remember one specific instance. We're in a normal dungeon, just at the entrance of a large room goblins charge forward. My wizard beats the initiative with his hummingbird familiar and high dex, then simply casts grease. He then uses a free action to say "Snipe'm out, boys" to the other members - cleric - he would have to sit out not daring entering my grease- , rogue with light crossbow and fighter with composite bow.

Then I see goblins produce slings and similar weak ranged weapons next turn, I cast obscuring mist this time. The DM made them rush forward sneaking 'balance' into the NPCs skill ranks of a few goblins - he confessed later - thinking my third action would be an area-effect evocation ending the encounter.

I didn't.. Why waste time? My old wizard settled, watching the warriors flank together chopping them into breakfast cereal-sized pieces. Later when I was asked IC by the fighter, "Why didn't you fireball them?" my response was: "I'm an old man with a spellbook. You're a burly youth with a warhammer. Who do you think is supposed to do the killing? I'll fireball when ice elementals emerge from the ground."

My advice? Let him become Batman. Send a mail to him linking to the guide.

Show him that you'll exhaust the wizard by one encounter after another, but he has a great chance to shine making other folks' work much much easier with a few mere spells, like wizards did in fantasy.

[its_all_ogre]

above post was good and so was kol- and sus-wo's wife.
personally i'd go with point buy as pointed out.
this still favours wizards to a degree as they really can work well with 18 int and 8 everything else, but other classes benefit well from this spread.

also giving players extra stst points, which is what 5d6 does really, means you've created a high stat party. even without great optimisation they're still harder.
next step you have to make monsters/npc's harder to balance it out.

might as well just keep it starting level stats.

[mistformsquirrl]

1. Ask him not to break the game.

2. If he tries it, rocks fall.

My solution as well.

Just because a class *can* destroy the world; doesn't mean it will; as long as the player is a reasonably mature person and is willing to work with you to make that not happen.

[The Glyphstone]

My solution as well.

Just because a class *can* destroy the world; doesn't mean it will; as long as the player is a reasonably mature person and is willing to work with you to make that not happen.

The problem is that we've been presented with pretty convincing evidence that they player is not reasonable mature and not willing to work with the DM - specifically, his threats to work against the DM if he doesn't get what he wants are a bad sign.

[Kylarra]

In all honesty, it sounds like you want to penalize the guy simply because he knows how to make an effective character build. Just because he has played before, does not mean he is going to intentionally destroy your campaign. Let him play whatever he wants.




every sign I have is that he's going to be cheesing the game. All his stories about his character involves them being pretty overpowered, he's asked me to create specific spells for him (including something that was essentially finger of death, but a touch spell... and spell level 2), and he's threatened to break the game (with a rogue, granted, so it's kind of an idle threat) if he doesn't get what he wants. He's also good friends with everybody I want to play, so if there is a confrontation I could lose other good RL friends and have no group.



if you are keeping people core (i.e. Players Handbook only), the wizard isn't much to brag about.

Most of the wizard's best spells are in core. :smallwink: It's the other base classes that are [more] expanded upon when you venture out of core.

[Mathius]

Okay, having read more of the posts you have a powergamer on your hands. Drop him! Drop him NOW! He will not get any better, he will only get worse with time. I have seen this kind of player many, many, MANY times. He is going to screw your game any chance he gets.

If you REALLY, REALLY want to keep him, limit his alignment to any good alignment. Make his stick to that alignment. Read all of the rules carefully and thoroughly. He is a rules lawyer and will throw everything in your face. Tell him that there will be absolutely no custom ANYTHING in your games. You create his spell list by making him have to search out and learn the spells. He has to pay the book value for any spell he wants to learn, he has to find someone to train him in metamagic feats and he must roll a d% to learn the spell if he fails he loses the money for the spell and must wait until next experience level to attempt to learn it again.

That is how I would deal with it. If he doesn't like it, theres the door.

[Forbiddenwar]

You know, I *really* don't think that libraries carry D&D sourcebooks. If mine does, I would be very suprised.

Just enter your zipcode and be surprised.
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/52691455&referer=brief_results
Also if your library doesn't have it you can:
go to the closest library that does
interlibrary loan it for free
Ask your library to buy several copies of it

When 4.0 came out I got our local library to buy 3 copies of each of the core books.
That is part of what libraries are, they buy books for the whole community, so if enough people ask for the library to buy a PHB, they will.

[Frerezar]

The easiest thing is to forbid custom items and spells, simple. That at least will keep everyting within more solid rules (so your other players can learn). Let him create whatever legal character he wants and go around bragging, then pound him into the ground when he gets out of control (be a jerk to other players for example, or to you) with some cool NPC who is friendly to the ¨softer¨PCs.
And f you don´t know how to make such characters then that´s what optimization forums are for, so you also get to have some fun.

[SensFan]

Okay, having read more of the posts you have a powergamer on your hands. Drop him! Drop him NOW! He will not get any better, he will only get worse with time. I have seen this kind of player many, many, MANY times. He is going to screw your game any chance he gets.

If you REALLY, REALLY want to keep him, limit his alignment to any good alignment. Make his stick to that alignment. Read all of the rules carefully and thoroughly. He is a rules lawyer and will throw everything in your face. Tell him that there will be absolutely no custom ANYTHING in your games. You create his spell list by making him have to search out and learn the spells. He has to pay the book value for any spell he wants to learn, he has to find someone to train him in metamagic feats and he must roll a d% to learn the spell if he fails he loses the money for the spell and must wait until next experience level to attempt to learn it again.

That is how I would deal with it. If he doesn't like it, theres the door.
I couldn't disagree more. By making him play by stricter rules than everyone else, it will only encourage them to optimize more and/or look to avoid the new rules.

[deuxhero]

Have him go with the archaic batman theory that made the allys god instead of the wizard.

[Umael]

Alternatively, you could look at this chance as a learning experience for you. Keep posting regular updates on the forum and let the Playgrounders toss out suggestions.

For example - he wants to play a wizard? Fine. Make an adventure in which there are a number of Dead Magic Zones. No magic works there. At all. Make sure there are clues to let them know when they enter a DMZ and give there a reason for being a number of DMZs to be found here and there (reality is unraveling, the first to go is the magic?). Make sure the wizard can do something about all this - maybe extended Knowledge (Arcane) rolls - while inside a DMZ. Perhaps after enough successes, the wizard can cast a 1st-level spell inside one... or figure out a way to introduce magic back into the area, shrinking it... or figure out that the DMZs are slowly expanding, and that the rate of increase is accelerating...

[Sinfire Titan]

Okay, having read more of the posts you have a powergamer on your hands. Drop him! Drop him NOW! He will not get any better, he will only get worse with time. I have seen this kind of player many, many, MANY times. He is going to screw your game any chance he gets.

If you REALLY, REALLY want to keep him, limit his alignment to any good alignment. Make his stick to that alignment. Read all of the rules carefully and thoroughly. He is a rules lawyer and will throw everything in your face. Tell him that there will be absolutely no custom ANYTHING in your games. You create his spell list by making him have to search out and learn the spells. He has to pay the book value for any spell he wants to learn, he has to find someone to train him in metamagic feats and he must roll a d% to learn the spell if he fails he loses the money for the spell and must wait until next experience level to attempt to learn it again.

That is how I would deal with it. If he doesn't like it, theres the door.

Sounds like someone got bit pretty badly. You got a problem with Optimization? From the looks of it, you are suggesting the OP turn the Power Gamer's Wizard into an NPC that the Power Gamer gets to steer unless the DM disagrees.

[Mongoose87]

Okay, having read more of the posts you have a powergamer on your hands. Drop him! Drop him NOW! He will not get any better, he will only get worse with time. I have seen this kind of player many, many, MANY times. He is going to screw your game any chance he gets.

If you REALLY, REALLY want to keep him, limit his alignment to any good alignment. Make his stick to that alignment. Read all of the rules carefully and thoroughly. He is a rules lawyer and will throw everything in your face. Tell him that there will be absolutely no custom ANYTHING in your games. You create his spell list by making him have to search out and learn the spells. He has to pay the book value for any spell he wants to learn, he has to find someone to train him in metamagic feats and he must roll a d% to learn the spell if he fails he loses the money for the spell and must wait until next experience level to attempt to learn it again.

That is how I would deal with it. If he doesn't like it, theres the door.
This kinda makes you sound like a huge jerk to play for.

[ken-do-nim]

If you're only going to level 11 or so, let 'em play a wizard. They only really become god once you hit 15th or so. And till about lvl 5, a barbarian'll take them down.
And rogues don't get broken too easily- especially not in core- so I think he's just messing with you.

+1. Really. Don't worry about it. You're only going to 11. 3.5 is a great gaming system up to 11.

[Mongoose87]

+1. Really. Don't worry about it. You're only going to 11. 3.5 is a great gaming system up to 11.

"These rules go to eleven."

[Milskidasith]

Thanks for all the help guys, especially the one who allowed me to search the library. However, the nearest library with a copy of the PHB is... err... 130 miles away. :smallannoyed:

I dropped the rolls to 4d6 (my players specifically said they wanted to roll for stats, though they don't really know the difference.), and he still rolled pretty well (16/15/14/13/13/11). I've asked him to try to use mostly buff spells, and while he said he wouldn't go entirely buffing, he still said he'd try to focus on it, so I think I've steered him towards the "I and he both know he's dealing with most of the encounter with his buffs but the other players feel kickass" route.

[ken-do-nim]

Thanks for all the help guys, especially the one who allowed me to search the library. However, the nearest library with a copy of the PHB is... err... 130 miles away. :smallannoyed:

I dropped the rolls to 4d6 (my players specifically said they wanted to roll for stats, though they don't really know the difference.), and he still rolled pretty well (16/15/14/13/13/11). I've asked him to try to use mostly buff spells, and while he said he wouldn't go entirely buffing, he still said he'd try to focus on it, so I think I've steered him towards the "I and he both know he's dealing with most of the encounter with his buffs but the other players feel kickass" route.

Excellent. In my last 3.5 campaign, I played a monk up to level 16. Believe it or not, my monk was THE kick-butt character of the game. But it was all thanks to the buffs. I was just the one willing to stick my neck out and go first, so I was rewarded with the best buffs. The wizard player moved away and we got a replacement, but the replacement's character went the arcane trickster route with zero buffs. My monk sucked ever after.

[Mathius]

I couldn't disagree more. By making him play by stricter rules than everyone else, it will only encourage them to optimize more and/or look to avoid the new rules.

When dealing with powergamers handing out rules like this is a last resort. It is true that by imposing restrictions you simply make them want to do one of two things: Leave the game (which is what I intend from the start), or Opt to play something else.

The truth is it is never about the character, it is about the DM. The DM determines everything. If you don't want it. Don't allow it. If he wants to know why, tell him that you are the DM, that's why. You do not have to explain yourself. You said it, therefore it is law. Simple as that.

[Mathius]

For the record, I have no problem with optimization. I did this with my characters on a regular basis. There is nothing wrong with this. It is when you get situations where first level characters want to start with magic items, custom spells and who knows what else.

This is the mark of a powergamer. These are the people that are best avoided. You saw for yourself. The OP's player openly blackmailed him into giving him what he wanted.

This goes far beyond optimization. This is pure jackassery. If you want to make a wizard by the rules and optimize, knock yourself out. Just because you know the rules in and out and everyone else doesn't it their problem and not yours. They'll learn, just as you did.

No, optimization is not my problem, powergaming is my problem. Feeding into the "I'll take my baseball and go home" mentality is my problem.

[Sinfire Titan]

When dealing with powergamers handing out rules like this is a last resort. It is true that by imposing restrictions you simply make them want to do one of two things: Leave the game (which is what I intend from the start), or Opt to play something else.

The truth is it is never about the character, it is about the DM. The DM determines everything. If you don't want it. Don't allow it. If he wants to know why, tell him that you are the DM, that's why. You do not have to explain yourself. You said it, therefore it is law. Simple as that.

The DM determines what happens, not what actions the players take. If the DM goes so far as to make your character for you without asking your permission, he is overstepping his boundaries and forcing the player to either accept the character or leave.

I may be an optimizer, but I respect the fact that DnD is a Roleplaying game. Everyone has a role to play, and when the DM starts modifying your character's choices without yield, he's taking it beyond the boundaries set by the game. There are other ways to cope with a power gamer. No one should make someone else's character for someone without consent from that person, not even the DM.


Especially not the DM.

Edit:


No, optimization is not my problem, powergaming is my problem. Feeding into the "I'll take my baseball and go home" mentality is my problem.

Your problem is Munchkins, not Power Gamers. There's a really big difference between the two. Power Gamers will work within the rules happily, and will admit mistakes in their build and correct them promptly. Munchkins are people who purposely "misread" or misinterpret something for personal gain for the sake of having the most powerful character.

The majority of the OP's problems can be handled with properly built encounters designed with the Power Gamer in mind. You are suggesting something far beyond that, going so far as to choose the player's spells for him (and I saw no hint of limiting this to the ones not gained through level up). This is poor DMing, and a Knee-Jerk.

[Mathius]

The DM determines what happens, not what actions the players take. If the DM goes so far as to make your character for you without asking your permission, he is overstepping his boundaries and forcing the player to either accept the character or leave.

I may be an optimizer, but I respect the fact that DnD is a Roleplaying game. Everyone has a role to play, and when the DM starts modifying your character's choices without yield, he's taking it beyond the boundaries set by the game. There are other ways to cope with a power gamer. No one should make someone else's character for someone without consent from that person, not even the DM.


Especially not the DM.

Edit:



Your problem is Munchkins, not Power Gamers. There's a really big difference between the two. Power Gamers will work within the rules happily, and will admit mistakes in their build and correct them promptly. Munchkins are people who purposely "misread" or misinterpret something for personal gain for the sake of having the most powerful character.

The majority of the OP's problems can be handled with properly built encounters designed with the Power Gamer in mind. You are suggesting something far beyond that, going so far as to choose the player's spells for him (and I saw no hint of limiting this to the ones not gained through level up). This is poor DMing, and a Knee-Jerk.

I don't really give a damn what label you want to put on it. The fact of the matter is if my players try to blackmail me into giving them free **** at first level then this is what they get.

And as far as the spell thing? That is the way wizards had to do it in second edition. They had to find the spells, roll to learn the spells and got screwed out of the cash if they missed the roll. My idea was nothing new. And I make every class have to train for their feats, not just wizards.

[Yukitsu]

Other people care about the title you give it. You're basically insulting all the power gamers out there by equating them to munchkins.

[Xyk]

I think letting him play a wizard is 100% A-okay. I only let my experienced players play wizards because the non-experienced players will make a mockery of them. Especially at low levels, the wizard is really not a danger to your balance, much less a rogue. Don't get your knickers in a knot. :smalltongue:

[Lycan 01]

I have a guy like this in my group. If he plays it, he can break it. But then we played Dark Heresy. He wanted to play as a Pskyer... you know, psychics who are basically overpowered beyond logical sense and are only held back by the fact that if they roll low, a demon can claw its way out of their skull or something. But I knew, somehow, he'd break it.

So I put a bomb in his head. :smallcool:


Unfortunately, the player who knew the password turned traitor and asploded the Pskyer's head when he tried to do the right thing and stop him. Right after the Psyker had turned down unlimited power offered to him by a demon because it just didn't feel right. Hilarity ensued... Don't worry folks, the player thought it was awesome that I had contingency measures in place in case he broke the game.


Anyway, I was going to suggest some sort of contingency plan, but in retrospect, those tend to do more harm than good... :smallconfused:

[Kallisti]

If I were you, I'd let him play it. If he's making it impossible for everyone else to have fun, take him aside, and ask him nicely to stop. If he won't, tell him firmly to stop. If he still won't, do the same in front of all the other players, and let them have a say in this, too. If he still won't stop, give him the boot. It doesn't matter if he's your friend--you're all trying to have a good time, and if he can't be mature about that, he shouldnb't be there.


Also, just going to get my two cent's worth here:

To me:
An optimizer is one who builds powerful characters within the limits of gentleman's agreements, but not simply to have power. Maybe they enjoy building the characters, maybe they just want to be sure they can keep up, etc. This is good. It means you can do more things as a DM without killing off your party.

A power-gamer is one who optimizes for the enjoyment of having a powerful character, in addition to or instead of other reasons. This is good too, for the same reasons optimizers are good.

A munchkin is one who builds powerful characters with no regard for gentleman's agreements, the enjoyment of other players, and, all too often, the rules.

[Sophismata]

To be honest, if he's not going to be a blasty Wizard, he'll likely make the other players feel more powerful as a result.

Also, Slay Living (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/slayLiving.htm) already exists and is level 5.

[SensFan]

When dealing with powergamers handing out rules like this is a last resort. It is true that by imposing restrictions you simply make them want to do one of two things: Leave the game (which is what I intend from the start), or Opt to play something else.

The truth is it is never about the character, it is about the DM. The DM determines everything. If you don't want it. Don't allow it. If he wants to know why, tell him that you are the DM, that's why. You do not have to explain yourself. You said it, therefore it is law. Simple as that.
Again, I find myself disagreeing completely. For one, I would never impose extra restrictions on one particular player, especially not for the purpose of having them leave the game. For two, I don't believe that I determine anything about the characters, as far as how they are created, other than houserules. For three, I don't think its fair to the players for you to give a "because I said so" answer, it destroys any verisimilitude your game has, and shows you probably don't have a good reason for it.

[Sinfire Titan]

Again, I find myself disagreeing completely. For one, I would never impose extra restrictions on one particular player, especially not for the purpose of having them leave the game. For two, I don't believe that I determine anything about the characters, as far as how they are created, other than houserules. For three, I don't think its fair to the players for you to give a "because I said so" answer, it destroys any verisimilitude your game has, and shows you probably don't have a good reason for it.

+1. It's a sign of poor DMing if the DM starts making choices for the players.

[eepop]

If the game isn't taking off after a few sessions, you might try 4E as well. It has an excellent amount of free info available with its trial from levels 1-3.

This would also give you a lot more freedom to let this player "do his worst", as the gap between optimized and un-optimized is much smaller in 4E.

3.5E is a great game, but so is 4E. Its worth a shot if your group is having trouble finding a good optimization compromise in 3.5E. And as a bonus, preparation is much easier on the DM in 4E.

[Milskidasith]

Well, now things are going better. We all made characters; the one who wanted to play a wizard decided to play a cleric, which is nice because it's a lot more of a support role. The rest of the group is a sorcerer, a ranger, and two druids (I'm one of them; I said I didn't want to play a DMPC, but most of them specifically said they would rather I did or that they didn't care.)

I tried to steer the other druid away from it, mostly because the player pretty much only went "Hey, this could possibly involve wolves, it's awesome!" and she doesn't care about anything else. It doesn't help that she can barely paid attention when I went over the basic rules and can hardly figure out her own character or the basic math used in D&D, and now she's having wolf companions... I figure I'll just use the basic one from the SRD without anything changed, because she really wouldn't notice either way.

[MichielHagen]

An easy way to fix this is to make the other characters more on level with him.
The first treasure you find/receive is a very good sword for the fighter, dagger for the rogue and bow for the ranger. Unless he would claim one of those items for himself, at that point every player would realise what an ass he is ;)