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Eldariel
2009-08-22, 06:10 AM
Just a fun, relatively pointless build crunching, everyone knows the iconic characters in PHB. Tordek the Dwarven Axeman, Lidda the Halfling Thief, Mialee the Mutant Frog Princess, Jozan the Heretic of Pelor, Vanadia the Overpowered, Gimble the Scourge of All That Is Pure, Nebin the Scourge of All That Is Sane, Krusk the Pimp, Devis the...Elvis(h)?, Ember the Crybaby, Regdar the Wannabe Ranger, Soveliss the Wannabe Fighter, Hennet the Wannabe Wizard and Alhandra of the Stick (up the arse), you know the bunch.

It's no secret that WoTC employees isn't really the greatest at using their own rules, so the iconics suffer of chronic lack of build thought. Even worse, they have absolutely no implementation of out-of-core abilities or prestige classes no matter how appropriate. So, I propose we rebuild the iconics to match their abilities with their status!

Disclaimer: This was tried here (http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-1016812.html) but some characters never got done.


First, it obviously takes listing the characters and what they should do:

Tordek: Male Dwarf Warrior with a Dwarven War Axe and a Shield. Heavy armor.

Regnar: Male Human Warrior with a Greatsword and some archery skills. Heavy armor.

Soveliss: Male (??) Elf Wildsman dual wielder who is also an archer. Light armor.

Jozan: Male Human Priest of Pelor. Heavy armor.

Krusk: Male Half-Orc Warrior with a Greataxe and a bow and a really pimpy dress. Lighter armor. Manly.

Lidda: Female Halfling...thief. Dumb. Blasts herself with magic devices. Daggers. Screw armor.

Vanadia: Female Half-Elf Druid with a canine companion. Scimitar. Leather.

Ember: Female Human Monk :smallconfused: Quarterstaff, apparently.

Alhandra: Female Human Divine Champion of Whatever, Longsword & Shield, heavy armor. Holy Avenger (later in her career)! Heavy Male Warhorse.

Hennet: Human Sorcerer. Knows a lot of defensive spells with the odd magic missile thrown in. Male bat familiar.

Mialee: Female Mutant Elf Wizard, looks silly and seems to do quite a bit of conjuration, transmutation, evocation and enchantment. Male raven familiar.

Nebin: Male Gnome Illusionist, probably banned Necromancy & Enchantment, Rat familiar...excitable, prone to freeze in combat. Yeah, Gnome.

Gimble: Male Gnome Bard. That is all. More weapons than you can shove a stick at. More into Illusion-magic and such. 'cause he's a friggin' Gnome.

Devis: Male Half-Elf Bard. Longsword and Crossbow or something. Silly. Probably some stupid diplomancer or something.


So, umm, pick one and toss together a build, if you feel so inclined! Uhm, 32pb. Feel free to express yourself.

KillianHawkeye
2009-08-22, 06:25 AM
This is an interesting idea, but I'm just wondering how you know the genders of the characters' mounts and familiars (or why it's important)?? :smallconfused::smallconfused:

EDIT: Also, what about the iconics from other books, like Morthos the human warlock?

Eldariel
2009-08-22, 06:27 AM
This is an interesting idea, but I'm just wondering how you know the genders of the characters' mounts and familiars?? :smallconfused::smallconfused:

It's an important detail; of course I have to keep myself updated! ...Actually, I dug up their stats from various WoTC product previews with a Google-search. Yeah, all the companions are listed as males.

Oh, and umm, actually the familiars/etc aren't that important a part of the process so if you want a different one or to get rid of it entirely, be my guest!


EDIT: Others are a fair game, but as I'm not aware of them, I can't list them. And I'm NOT listing all the prestige class representatives. I have a life.

RTGoodman
2009-08-22, 06:31 AM
This is an interesting idea, but I'm just wondering how you know the genders of the characters' mounts and familiars (or why it's important)?? :smallconfused::smallconfused:

I think it's probably all listed out in the 3.0 Enemies & Allies book. It has stats for the Iconics at 1st, 5th, 10th, and 15th level, I believe.

I'd definitely be into this, assuming you're talking about taking the IDEA of each iconic and building arouind it. Could Tordek, for instance, but a Warblade that goes into that Dwarven Defender-type Martial PrC from ToB? Or something like that?

Eldariel
2009-08-22, 06:36 AM
I'd definitely be into this, assuming you're talking about taking the IDEA of each iconic and building arouind it. Could Tordek, for instance, but a Warblade that goes into that Dwarven Defender-type Martial PrC from ToB? Or something like that?

That's the idea. Mialee could be a friggin' Warmage if you feel that serves this the best (hint: it doesn't and this is a really lousy example). But yeah, point being, idea (and preferably equipment) the same, builds, feats, skills, etc. are a fair game to play around with. Which of course makes Tordek and Alhandra bitches to work with 'cause they're sword&board.

Frosty
2009-08-22, 12:33 PM
Mailee's CHA makes her not suit *anything* that requires force-of-personality based casting. And any Sword-and-Boarder requires ToB levels. Insightful Strike and Greater Insightful Strike is the great damage equalizer.

HCL
2009-08-22, 12:39 PM
Nebin and Gimble are indubitably the strongest of those characters.

Frosty
2009-08-22, 12:40 PM
Only if Gimble is a Dragonfire Inspiration Bard or unless he PrCs out into Sublime Chord.

woodenbandman
2009-08-22, 12:44 PM
Hoo boy. Let's do Soveliss:

Soveliss: Warblade 20.

Maneuvers essential: Adamantine Hurricane, Raging Mongoose, Time Stands Still

Feats Essential: TWF line, Shadow Blade, Stormguard Warrior.

Basic TWF warblade that can also be an archer with TSS bow attacks.

You know what? Copy/paste warblade 20 about 4 times.

ColdSepp
2009-08-22, 12:46 PM
Are their stats listed anywhere, or do we take point buy and make them ourselves?

Eloel
2009-08-22, 12:46 PM
Fighter 2/Warblade 18 >>> Warblade 20.
New stances are all 1 level higher than what they are in Warblade20. Getting a stance at L4 & L8? Are you joking?

Frosty
2009-08-22, 12:47 PM
Fighter 2/Warblade 18 >>> Warblade 20.
New stances are all 1 level higher than what they are in Warblade20. Getting a stance at L4 & L8? Are you joking?

No, because you want the Capstone. Two stances at once? Hell yes.

Myou
2009-08-22, 12:59 PM
Looking at one of the existing builds (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20000626b) I don't see what the fuss is all about.

It's really only right and proper for a half-elf, half-abomination wizard like Mialee to have more Dex than Int and more Wis than Con, especially with Toughness to negate the low HP.

And she certainly can't afford to dump Str. Not if she wants that longsword to come in handy after she's spent all those overpowered Evocation spells.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-08-22, 01:36 PM
existing builds (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20000626b)

I wonder if the good folks over at WotC ever did learn to play their own game? SF(evocation) and Toughness? I wonder what feat they were planning for next? Probably endourance. :smallsigh:

Eldariel
2009-08-22, 01:59 PM
Hoo boy. Let's do Soveliss:

Soveliss: Warblade 20.

Maneuvers essential: Adamantine Hurricane, Raging Mongoose, Time Stands Still

Feats Essential: TWF line, Shadow Blade, Stormguard Warrior.

Basic TWF warblade that can also be an archer with TSS bow attacks.

You know what? Copy/paste warblade 20 about 4 times.

Hm, Ranger 2 seems like a good bet for skills. Otherwise, yeah, sounds pretty much exactly like it. Dual Stance is nice, but I think the Archery-part is going to be undoable without Rapid Shot.

Oh, and let's make him Wood Elf. Those Str+Dex boosts will come in handy to qualify for TWF and go Str-based. Hell, toss two levels of Bloodclaw Master in there to get full Str in the offhand attacks. Would free up some feats and the need for a Shadowhand Stance.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-08-22, 02:04 PM
Dual Stance is nice, but I think the Archery-part is going to be undoable without Rapid Shot.


Raging mongoose gives archers extra attacks too, doesn't it?

Eldariel
2009-08-22, 02:07 PM
Raging mongoose gives archers extra attacks too, doesn't it?

Indeed. Rapid Shot level 2, Dancing Mongoose at 10, Raging Mongoose 16 though. But yeah, ultimately you'll want Rapid Shot Raging Mongoose Time Stands Still on level 18 (or 17 in the original build sans Rapid Shot) for 16 arrows.

Ernir
2009-08-22, 02:09 PM
Gimble the Gnome Illusion-Bard?

Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 2/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Fatespinner 3

Feats:
Spell Focus: Illusion [Level 1]
Greater Spell Focus: Illusion [Level 3]
Melodic Casting [Level 6]
Captivating Melody [Lyric Thaumaturge 2]
Misleading Song [Level 9]
Heighten Spell [Level 12]
Rapid Metamagic [Level 15]
Quicken Spell [Level 18]


Instead of Inspiring Courage, he burns through his bardic music to enhance his spellcasting. 9th level spells and lots of illusion-action, but he still plays music every round.
I also avoided the full ScM cheese. :smalltongue:

Give me a point buy and I'll give you a sheet! :smallsmile:



EDIT: I think I'll make Devis a proper Inspire Courage-er.

Eldariel
2009-08-22, 02:12 PM
Ah, fine, Point Buy 32.

Morty
2009-08-22, 02:13 PM
I think I'd give Soveliss some more Ranger levels. In fact, if Ranger is deemed too unoptimized - though I really don't see why it should be if we use Spell Compendium - I'd use some homebrewed Ranger rather than Warblade if homebrew material is allowed.

Eldariel
2009-08-22, 02:13 PM
I think I'd give Soveliss some more Ranger levels. In fact, if Ranger is deemed too unoptimized - though I really don't see why it should be if we use Spell Compendium - I'd use some homebrewed Ranger rather than Warblade if homebrew material is allowed.

Let's keep Homebrew out of it...it gets too easy that way.

Morty
2009-08-22, 02:16 PM
Let's keep Homebrew out of it...it gets too easy that way.

I guess you're right. Still, I don't think Warblade is a perfect replacement for a Ranger. A few levels to get TWF-boosting manuevers, perhaps. And Ranger with Spell Compendium and various other splatbooks isn't that underpowered.

PId6
2009-08-22, 04:31 PM
Let's try my hand at the mutant frog.

Gray Elf Generalist 6/Loremaster 10/Archmage 4

Base Abilities:

Str: 8
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 20
Wis: 10
Cha: 4 (Technically not allowed, but I think she deserves special dispensation.)

Level 20 Abilities:

Str: 8
Dex: 18
Con: 12 (18)
Int: 30 (36)
Wis: 10
Cha: 4

Feats:

1: Skill Focus (Knowledge: Arcana)
3: Quicken Spell
5: Split Ray
6: Chain Spell
9: Spell Focus (Transmutation)
12: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
15: Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
18: Arcane Mastery

Eldariel
2009-08-22, 04:45 PM
Let's try my hand at the mutant frog.

Gray Elf Generalist 6/Loremaster 10/Archmage 4

Base Abilities:

Str: 8
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 20
Wis: 10
Cha: 4 (Technically not allowed, but I think she deserves special dispensation.)

Level 20 Abilities:

Str: 8
Dex: 18
Con: 12 (18)
Int: 30 (36)
Wis: 10
Cha: 4

Feats:

1: Skill Focus (Knowledge: Arcana)
3: Quicken Spell
5: Split Ray
6: Chain Spell
9: Spell Focus (Transmutation)
12: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
15: Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
18: Arcane Mastery

Make her a Fire Elf. That will explain her skin color and give her a Charisma penalty, while retaining everything else. Also, I'm not sure on Loremaster here; mayhap Fatespinner+something instead/in addition?

Woodsman
2009-08-22, 04:59 PM
I'm pretty sure Vadania is a half-elf, actually.

I can't remember where I saw it, but it was in a book of mine...

Eldariel
2009-08-22, 05:10 PM
I'm pretty sure Vadania is a half-elf, actually.

I can't remember where I saw it, but it was in a book of mine...

This is true. My bad. Made the mistake since it makes no sense.

Myou
2009-08-22, 05:15 PM
Str: 8
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 20
Wis: 10
Cha: -1 (Technically not allowed, but the horror of her abberant form is such that the laws of the D&D universe reshape themselves around her.)


Fixed. :smallsmile:

Faulty
2009-08-22, 05:19 PM
I'm glad I'm not the only one who think Mialee looks freakish. Regdar looks like he might be a Neanderthal from Frostburn.

peacenlove
2009-08-22, 05:34 PM
Fixed. :smallsmile:

How would you handle charisma drain/damage then? :smalltongue: Or it doesn't get worse? :smallwink:

PId6
2009-08-22, 06:08 PM
Fixed. :smallsmile:http://www.sallys-place.com/food/columns/zonis/Best_Cookie-20.jpg

Make her a Fire Elf. That will explain her skin color and give her a Charisma penalty, while retaining everything else. Also, I'm not sure on Loremaster here; mayhap Fatespinner+something instead/in addition?
Fire Elf's a good idea. Loremaster's the only thing I can think of that remotely fits. Incantatrix doesn't seem right, nor any of the abjuration ones. Too bad there's no Master Generalist. Fatespinner might work, but not sure what else to put there.

Myou
2009-08-22, 06:30 PM
How would you handle charisma drain/damage then? :smalltongue: Or it doesn't get worse? :smallwink:

It would actually drain the charisma of creatures around her. An aura of uglyness. No save. ^^


http://www.sallys-place.com/food/columns/zonis/Best_Cookie-20.jpg



Wow, until now I allways thought the cookies were just for other people. :smallredface:

Draz74
2009-08-22, 07:14 PM
Krusk :smallfurious:
Half-Orc Warblade 20
starting: Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 14
Skills: Intimidate 23, Jump 13, Climb 5, Balance 5, Tumble 1, Handle Animal 1, Survival 6
Skill Tricks: Never Outnumbered, Speedy Ascent, Up the Hill, Leaping Climber
Feats: Power Attack, Endurance, Steadfast Determination, Imperious Command, Stone Power, Shards of Granite, Vital Recovery, Combat Reflexes, Iron Will, Improved Initiative, Intimidating Strike
Stances: Punishing Stance, Hunter's Sense, Absolute Steel, Prey on the Weak
Maneuvers (at Level 20): Adamantine Bones, Adamantine Hurricane, Ancient Mountain Hammer, Colossus Strike, Dazing Strike, Feral Death Blow, Fountain of Blood, Iron Heart Endurance, Iron Heart Surge, Mountain Avalanche, Mountain Tombstone Strike, Pouncing Charge, Strike of Perfect Clarity
Wields: Greataxe.

I worked out the full 20-level maneuver progression, but I didn't save it. :smallfrown:

Relatively high Charisma for the pimp win.

John Campbell
2009-08-22, 08:15 PM
So, tangentially (and this is not intended as criticism of this thread), can anyone tell me how including stats for iconic characters that pretty much just reiterate what the class description said after every class description in the book isn't a complete waste of space?

RTGoodman
2009-08-22, 09:24 PM
How would you handle charisma drain/damage then? :smalltongue: Or it doesn't get worse? :smallwink:

No she actually gets LESS ugly. She's so bad, that making it worse brings it all the way back around to more or less decent. :smalltongue:


I don't have access to any 3.x books, but here's a few ideas for other people to go with.

Alhandra: Human Paladin (Charging Smite)/Fist of Raziel (maybe with some Ordained Champion and/or something to boost spellcasting). Probably want Serenity to make her less MAD, and Battle Blessing to make those Paladin spells worthwhile.

Krusk: Barbarian/Fighter 2/Frenzied Berserker. Dump Wis, but throw on some Cha and grab Intimidating Rage, Imperious Command, and all that other Intimidate optimization. He keeps his pimp hand strong. And scares people with it.

Regdar: Fighter 2/Warblade or even straight Warblade 20 works. He's about as bland as... well, a Core Fighter.

Jozan: NE Cleric/Radiant Servant of the Burning Hate. Spell list at LEAST includes symbol of pain. Otherwise, uses buffed-up CL and blasphemy and whatnot - he's no ClericZilla, but he's a beast.



Oh, by the way, you forgot Eberk, the Dwarf Cleric. He's probably Dream Dwarf (they get a Wis bonus right?) Cleric with a few full-casting PrCs, DMM, and all that. HE'S your ClericZilla.

Frosty
2009-08-22, 09:29 PM
Isn't Jozam a cleric of Pelor?

RTGoodman
2009-08-22, 09:30 PM
Isn't Jozam a cleric of Pelor?

Yeah, that's what I said (http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:bzRSsmHMjbEJ:forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D846926+Pelor+the+Burning+Hate&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us).

Starbuck_II
2009-08-22, 09:37 PM
Krusk :smallfurious:
Half-Orc Warblade 20
starting: Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 14
Skills: Intimidate 23, Jump 13, Climb 5, Balance 5, Tumble 1, Handle Animal 1, Survival 6
Skill Tricks: Never Outnumbered, Speedy Ascent, Up the Hill, Leaping Climber
Feats: Power Attack, Endurance, Steadfast Determination, Imperious Command, Stone Power, Shards of Granite, Vital Recovery, Combat Reflexes, Iron Will, Improved Initiative, Intimidating Strike
Stances: Punishing Stance, Hunter's Sense, Absolute Steel, Prey on the Weak
Maneuvers (at Level 20): Adamantine Bones, Adamantine Hurricane, Ancient Mountain Hammer, Colossus Strike, Dazing Strike, Feral Death Blow, Fountain of Blood, Iron Heart Endurance, Iron Heart Surge, Mountain Avalanche, Mountain Tombstone Strike, Pouncing Charge, Strike of Perfect Clarity
Wields: Greataxe.

I worked out the full 20-level maneuver progression, but I didn't save it. :smallfrown:

Relatively high Charisma for the pimp win.

He rages: he should have 1 level of Barb at minimum. He likes pounce as well.

quick_comment
2009-08-22, 09:39 PM
He rages: he should have 1 level of Barb at minimum. He likes pounce as well.

Yeah. I would go Warblade 10/Bloodclaw Master 10 for him

Ernir
2009-08-22, 11:20 PM
My take on Gimble. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=148668)

So far, the only addition from the previous post is the skill ranks. Next up: Items.

Draz74
2009-08-22, 11:50 PM
He rages: he should have 1 level of Barb at minimum.
Rage can be roleplayed. Especially on a character with stances -- you can just roleplay him as "raging" anytime he's using Punishing Stance or Prey on the Weak.

And if I did care about giving him the exact "Rage" ability, I might pick Half-Orc Paragon instead of Barbarian ... hmm.


He likes pounce as well.
I see nothing in his fluff that specifies that, beyond it being a good idea in general for melee types (especially the more mobile ones). But if you're worried about it, he has maneuvers that will let him do it.

Cieyrin
2009-08-22, 11:57 PM
He rages: he should have 1 level of Barb at minimum. He likes pounce as well.

I'd almost say Krusk would be well served as a Frenzied Berserker, perhaps, or at least some levels in it. He doesn't necessarily have to do awesome tricks of awesome, as long as he crushes skulls with reckless abandon.

CockroachTeaParty
2009-08-22, 11:59 PM
There are a smattering of almost-iconic characters in splatbooks that don't even have names, such as the Tomb of Battle classes. The 'iconic' swordsage is some halfling, the warblade some elf a**hole.

However, I'd like to give the 'iconic' Crusader a name... let's call her Brienne of Tarth. :smallwink:

I'm actually kind of saddened that there are no iconic 4th edition characters. I realize that they contributed next to nothing to 3rd edition, but there was something oddly comforting about them. Plus, they spawned the comedic gold that is Mailee's ugliness and Jozan's heresy...

Elfin
2009-08-23, 12:03 AM
Look at the captions in ToB- the iconics have names.

CockroachTeaParty
2009-08-23, 12:36 AM
Oh, so they do! I missed that... It's the Completes that are more sporadic about it... Aside from Morthos the warlock (the soul-stealer), the rest are more wacky.

I'll still call Daresa the Crusader 'Daresa the Beauty.'

The Glyphstone
2009-08-23, 12:53 AM
Didn't they publish some (really bad) D&D novels a while back featuring the iconics? Maybe those would give us some hints as to their abilities.

Ice&Fire
2009-08-23, 05:23 AM
Oh, so they do! I missed that... It's the Completes that are more sporadic about it... Aside from Morthos the warlock (the soul-stealer), the rest are more wacky.

I'll still call Daresa the Crusader 'Daresa the Beauty.'

:smallbiggrin:
Oh man, I love ASOIAF

RTGoodman
2009-08-23, 10:10 AM
Didn't they publish some (really bad) D&D novels a while back featuring the iconics? Maybe those would give us some hints as to their abilities.

Yeah... the one I read had Mialee gettin' it on with Devis. Also they fought a wight, but that's not the part that's horribly burned into my brain. :smalleek:

Starbuck_II
2009-08-23, 10:25 AM
Was the Wight created by their love making?

CockroachTeaParty
2009-08-23, 10:47 AM
:smallbiggrin:
Oh man, I love ASOIAF

I don't think I would have ever guessed that... :smallwink:

Myou
2009-08-23, 10:49 AM
Was the Wight created by their love making?

No, it cowered in the corner sobbing and trying desperately to slit it's wrists.

John Campbell
2009-08-23, 11:31 AM
No, it cowered in the corner sobbing and trying desperately to slit it's wrists.

Wight: NOOOOOOoooo! Curse my undead immunity to critical hits!

Myou
2009-08-23, 11:42 AM
Wight: NOOOOOOoooo! Curse my undead immunity to critical hits!

"Somebody turn me! Somebody turn me! Please! Make the horror stop!"

Adumbration
2009-08-23, 12:18 PM
"Somebody turn me! Somebody turn me! Please! Make the horror stop!"

"Jozan! Jozan! WHERE IS HE!" *greater turning*

Myou
2009-08-23, 12:40 PM
"Jozan! Jozan! WHERE IS HE!" *greater turning*

"Ohh! Yes, the sweet embrace of nothingness! Praise Pelor! Thank you Jozaaa...." *Poof!*

Eldariel
2009-08-23, 02:13 PM
I'd say Krusk definitely needs Rage and Imperious Command + Intimidating Rage. Maybe even Menacing Demeanor. He's got a high Cha and he's a big scary axe wielder so obviously he should obviously be the ultimate Intimidator. I agree with the Barbarian-level; getting angry is what he does.

Set
2009-08-23, 08:02 PM
There's also Naull, the iconic human Evoker (p 110) and Kerwyn, the iconic human Rogue (p 168). According to Todd Lockwood's site, (http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/concept/01/wizard_female.shtml) Naull is supposed to have an owl familiar.

You can also see the also-ran iconics, who never made it into the book, like the
half-orc paladin, (http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/concept/02/half_orc_paladin.shtml)
half-elven sorceress, (http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/concept/02/half_elf_sorceress.shtml)
a different half-elven druid, (http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/concept/02/half_elf_druid.shtml)
gnomish archer, (http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/concept/03/gnome_archer.shtml)
human sorceress (http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/concept/03/sorceress.shtml) and human barbarian. (http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/concept/04/barbarian_female_2.shtml)

Eldariel
2009-08-23, 08:07 PM
There's also Naull, the iconic human Evoker (p 110) and Kerwyn, the iconic human Rogue (p 168). According to Todd Lockwood's site, (http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/concept/01/wizard_female.shtml) Naull is supposed to have an owl familiar.

You can also see the also-ran iconics, who never made it into the book, like the
half-orc paladin, (http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/concept/02/half_orc_paladin.shtml)
half-elven sorceress, (http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/concept/02/half_elf_sorceress.shtml)
a different half-elven druid, (http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/concept/02/half_elf_druid.shtml)
gnomish archer, (http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/concept/03/gnome_archer.shtml)
human sorceress (http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/concept/03/sorceress.shtml) and human barbarian. (http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/concept/04/barbarian_female_2.shtml)

See, they knew Druids are overpowered, so they made all their test Druids of the worst race in the book! Balance!

Ernir
2009-08-24, 11:42 PM
My Gimble is finished, although I left most of his spell selection as an exercise to the reader.

Gimble, Herald of the High Crown (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=148668)
CG Gnome Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 2/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Fatespinner 3.

For a caster-focused Bard, did I forget something? Suggestions, criticism?


I am having a hard time deciding what to do next. Here are my starting ideas:
Tordek: Fighter 2/Warblade 18. Uses lots of Stone Dragon and Diamond Mind to soften the sword&board-ness. Fighter for heavy armor proficiency and the delayed stance access.

Regnar: Greatsword + Archery at low levels. Shouldn't that lead into Bloodstorm Blade nicely enough?

Soveliss: Dual Wield + Archery. Guh. Scout/Ranger swift hunter with a feat on TWF and Gloves of the Balanced Hand. Should do it.

Jozan: Radiant Servant of Pelor, definitely. That's what worshipping Pelor is for, right?

Krusk: I see him as more of a Frenzied Berserker than a Warblade.

Lidda: She seems to enjoy melee enough to make her a Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 1/Rogue 16. Fleh. Vanilla build.

Vanadia: Druid 20. Another boring one.

Ember: I was trying to hammer together a Monk/Shou Disciple/Shiba Protector build, but it didn't come out ahead of a straight Swordsage. I am going to try again. =/

Alhandra: Sword and Board problem again. I am tempted to make her a Crusader with a Paladin dip, and use Wild Cohort to get the mount back. She could be a one-handed lancer too.

Hennet: He is shown on a flying rug in the PHB2, which makes me want to do him with a fantasy-middle-east theme. :smalltongue:
Sand Shaper levels, some defensy, some blasty. Sorcerer.

Mialee: Elven Generalist. Mage of the Arcane Order/Archmage to be even more representative of the archetypical wizard?

Nebin: Focused Specialist Illusionist. Already made Gimble a ScM, does anyone have other ideas? =/

Gimble: Done! See above.

Devis: Another Half-elf. :smallyuk:
He uses a longsword and no shield, so he's a Snowflake Wardancer. Inspire Courage optimization.
Is someone interested in seeing a specific one of these?

Draz74
2009-08-25, 01:12 AM
Are we supposed to be worrying about XP penalties for multiclassing? Or assuming that our reasonable DM will houserule them away?


Krusk: I see him as more of a Frenzied Berserker than a Warblade.

I still say you can roleplay a Warblade as being a frenzied berserker just fine. :smalltongue: Just because Barbarian doesn't suck as bad as Samurai doesn't mean Warblade can't do Barbarian just as well as it does Samurai.

peacenlove
2009-08-25, 01:23 AM
Nebin: Focused Specialist Illusionist. Already made Gimble a ScM, does anyone have other ideas? =/

Master Specialist (CM)
Shadowcrafter (Underdark)
The UA subtitution levels for the illusionist
Incantatrix (PGtF)


Vanadia: Druid 20. Another boring one.
Planar shepherd? (FoE) :smalltongue:

Book Wyrm
2009-08-25, 02:01 AM
I'm unsure whether to make Ember an Unarmed Swordsage 10/Shadow Sun Ninja 10 or just Unarmed Swordsage 20 with Martial Study for Ironheart maneuvers and Stormguard Warrior, Raging Mongoose, and Time Stands Still for Flurry of Win. Superior Unarmed Strike is a must.

Ember also tends to show case the monk only weapons like shuriken and nunchucks, so either exotic weapon master or an actual level of monk might be necessary :smallyuk:.

Oh, and possibly Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade to reduce MAD to only really needing Dex and Wisdom.

PId6
2009-08-25, 02:08 AM
I'm unsure whether to make Ember an Unarmed Swordsage 10/Shadow Sun Ninja 10 or just Unarmed Swordsage 20 with Martial Study for Ironheart maneuvers and Stormguard Warrior, Raging Mongoose, and Time Stands Still for Flurry of Win. Superior Unarmed Strike is a must.

Ember also tends to show case the monk only weapons like shuriken and nunchucks, so either exotic weapon master or an actual level of monk might be necessary :smallyuk:.
Hello? Ember? Ember? That just screams Desert Wind. Yeah, fire immunes, I know, but still, Ember.

Cyclocone
2009-08-25, 02:28 AM
I wonder if the good folks over at WotC ever did learn to play their own game? SF(evocation) and Toughness? I wonder what feat they were planning for next? Probably endourance. :smallsigh:

Well, if nothing else, lots of Toughness could explain why she looks like a lumberjack...

So yeah, I'd go Toughness, Endurance, Diehard and Great Fortitude all the way.:smallbiggrin:

T.G. Oskar
2009-08-25, 02:43 AM
Hoo boy. Let's do Soveliss:

Soveliss: Warblade 20.

Maneuvers essential: Adamantine Hurricane, Raging Mongoose, Time Stands Still

Feats Essential: TWF line, Shadow Blade, Stormguard Warrior.

Basic TWF warblade that can also be an archer with TSS bow attacks.

You know what? Copy/paste warblade 20 about 4 times.

You're pretty lucky that Soveliss is an Elf, otherwise he couldn't use that Bow properly.

Plus, he gets a bow with three arrows in one of his Epic shows. That at least means Multishot.

I'd say Ranger 6 (archery path)/Fighter 4/Warblade 4-6/Order of the Bow Initiate X.

The four levels in Fighter would be for the Two-Weapon Fighting path, then leapfrog the Warblade levels with the Ranger and Fighter levels for no XP penalty. Order of the Bow Initiate is just to work a bit his archery abilities, although it would be awesome to treat the bow-shooting attack as a melee attack to, thus, use maneuvers from his bow.

Replacing Warblade with Swordsage is actually a tad better. You won't care jack about the spellcasting (which uses Wisdom, actually), but you'd have a faster character, with a much larger load of maneuvers. Adaptive Style would be a big plus, and the Ranger/Fighter levels would give a tad more decent boost to BAB.

I also like Ernir's suggestion: Scout + Ranger with Swift Hunter build. Maybe combine the two?

Ranger 6/Scout 6/Fighter 4/Swordsage 4? Mix TWF, archery and maneuvers? The Ranger ACF where you replace spellcasting with feats can work as well.

As for Krusk...definitely feels odd without Barbarian. Just make him Lion Totem Barbarian, perhaps a level or two of Frenzied Berserker, Power Attack + Shock Trooper, go to town. Krusk isn't for fancy Warblade moves, he's built for the mauling, and there's no better mauling than taking your biggest Greataxe, drop that BAB and AC to insanely low levels after Raging like a maniac, do like a Lion and Pounce rip things to shreds. Were it not because Krusk isn't a giant, I'd even say War Hulk. However, War Hulk is sadly off his limits.

Nebin could go the way of Caphodel, going Master Specialist and then Shadowcraft Mage. But he gets the cheese, unlike Gimble. He likes to use Illusions, that he does; why then cripple him with NOT giving him Shadowcraft Mage? Alternatively, even though it may seem counterproductive: Illusionist/Master Specialist/Shadowcaster/Noctumancer, try to make him a pretty potent Illusionist while at that. Probably just one level or three of Shadowcaster, then the rest on Noctumancer. With probably the Illusionist variant from Unearthed Arcana, if possible. Just as peacenlove ninja'ed me.

With Alhandra...I like the suggestion. Alhandra is pretty well known for being a worshipper of Heironeous. It's a shame Shining Blade of Heironeous blows like nothing, but fortunately there's Ordained Champion for that. I'd mostly say Paladin 4/Cleric (or Favored Soul) 1/Ordained Champion 5/Fist of Raziel 10 (and no, being a Fist of Raziel doesn't mean she stops worshipping Heironeous, it means she goes into a bit more of desire to kill the bad guys). I'd say Cleric, just because it gives better benefits with Ordained Champion, and the end result is about 13 levels of Cleric spellcasting, which is far much better than the Paladin spellcasting. Also, agree with the Wild Cohort. And wouldn't it be such to stretch the rules a bit and allow Serenity, even for the Fist of Raziel? And yeah, don't seem to work anything outside of Charging Smite: unless you get something pretty for Lay on Hands, Divine Spirit gets a wee bit lost. That would make her an insane Smiter, with a semi-special mount and much better spellcasting.

Jozan...well, he'd be a True Neutral follower of Pelor. That way, he can be a follower of the false Pelor and the Burning Hate, dispensing both the blessings of the false Pelor and the fiery burn of Pelor. Since it's the same church (so to speak) and everything, he'd be capable of following both sects as if nothing happened, lie if he desires, help if he wishes or kill if he wishes, and pretty much work as he wishes. Which means being the High Priest of Pelor, while not reading either as good or bad. I'm kinda throwing a bone at Jozan after being good, and it makes a bit more sense than just making Jozan evil (despite the Symbol of Pain quite present, which neutrals can cast without trouble), and it would reconcile both sides of Pelor's faith. Actually, I'd see it's for the Church of the Shining Light (and the Burning Hate) of Pelor and for the deity itself that his High Priest is actually neutral. That way, there's no moral qualms for any of the two sects.

Ember...possibly Monk 6/Psionic Fist X/Unarmed Swordsage X/Shadow Sun Ninja X. Special Monk weapons, psionics (because Monks & psionics have a love-love relation), plus the nifty maneuvers to go with it. Hidden Talent for 1st level, so she can get Inertial Armor and afterwards get stuff like Hustle, Force Screen, Thicken Skin, perhaps Expansion and other stuff. It may not be Hustle + TSS for mobile Flurry of Win, but you can still work around something nifty. And yeah, Weapon Finesse/Shadow Blade is a must. Intuitive Strike is good too, if you wish to make her good. Also, Gloves of the Balanced Hand + Scorpion Kamas + Monk's Belt for epic victory.

Sandman XI
2009-08-25, 05:05 AM
Hennet: Human Sorcerer 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7

Probably not the most optimized thing in the world, but hey, 9th level spells and 4 attacks a round!

Cieyrin
2009-08-25, 11:22 AM
gnomish archer, (http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/concept/03/gnome_archer.shtml)

Where has that crossbow been all my life!?! ;_;


Lidda: She seems to enjoy melee enough to make her a Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 1/Rogue 16. Fleh. Vanilla build.

Why Fighter at all? This screams Daring Outlaw, maybe Exemplar for skill monkeying like no other.

Draz74
2009-08-25, 01:07 PM
I was kind of hoping to see Ember as a Psychic Warrior with a Monk dip and Tashalatora. Though I can't deny that her name and dark skin do kind of scream "Swordsage with Desert Wind."

Elfin
2009-08-25, 01:17 PM
Hennet: Human Sorcerer 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7

Probably not the most optimized thing in the world, but hey, 9th level spells and 4 attacks a round!

I'd take out the Fighter and Eldritch Knight. Doesn't quite seem Hennet-ish.

Eldariel
2009-08-25, 01:38 PM
Hennet: Human Sorcerer 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7

Probably not the most optimized thing in the world, but hey, 9th level spells and 4 attacks a round!

I don't see Hennet being a warrior at all, to be honest. I'd focus on casting; Incantatrix is the obvious option, but Hennet feels more like a Mage of the Arcane Order to me.

Elfin
2009-08-25, 02:04 PM
I dunno, personally I'd make Hennet an Incantatrix.
Though some Mage of the Arcane Order might not be amiss.

Eldariel
2009-08-25, 02:14 PM
I dunno, personally I'd make Hennet an Incantatrix.
Though some Mage of the Arcane Order might not be amiss.

It's 10 levels in 1 and none in the other. Both are really 10-or-0 types of classes.

Elfin
2009-08-25, 02:15 PM
Then my vote for Hennet is Sorcerer5/Incantatrix10/Archmage5.
I'd see him barring enchantment.

Starbuck_II
2009-08-25, 03:10 PM
Shouldn't he have something connecting belts to him?

Is there a belt Prc?

Ernir
2009-08-25, 03:29 PM
I got to work on a Hennet (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=149306). Right now: Sorcerer 5/Sand Shaper 8/Thaumaturgist 5/Fatespinner 2. Summoning heavy.

I thought about Malconvoker. I thought about it hard. I still haven't convinced myself to lose another CL. :smallfrown:
And Sand Shaper has to stay, because of the flying rug. :smalltongue:

I still have the items to complete.


Also, is this below the power level you were originally thinking about, Eldariel? The others are talking about Incantatrix. :smalleek:


Why Fighter at all? This screams Daring Outlaw, maybe Exemplar for skill monkeying like no other.

Yes, since we would have Daring Outlaw, we would get the SA of a 19th level Rogue, and since Rogue 20 gives no SA at all, I had a "spare level". I put Fighter there because the fourth level of a full BAB class gives the juicy BAB 16.

Could also be Exemplar for more skillmonkey-ness, sure. Or Warblade for a stance.

Also, we could just make Lidda a Swordsage, too. :smallbiggrin:

Draz74
2009-08-25, 03:49 PM
I don't see Lidda as all that combatitive. I might see her more as just Rogue 10/Exemplar 10 or something.

The ultimate build for Roguishness, IMO, including a moderate amount of combat-friendliness, would be Rogue 10 / Factotum 3 / Swordsage 4 / Uncanny Trickster 3. But again, that doesn't say "Lidda" to me.


Shouldn't he have something connecting belts to him?

Is there a belt Prc?

Not as far as I know, but one option would be to spend a lot of his feats on Incarnum-related stuff dealing with the Belt slot. Shape Soulmeld (something for the waist), Open Chakra (waist), Split Chakra (waist), Bonus Essentia, or some array like that.

Eldariel
2009-08-25, 04:11 PM
Ernir: It's not really under the power level; the only reason Incantatrix gets brought up is because Sorcerers are really supposed to excel at metamagic ('cause their magic is innate so their control of it should be on a whole different level than a Wizard's) and Incantatrix is basically the only PrC that does that well. Something like that might work just fine, given those PrCs synergize with Sorc well too (though I'd consider Archmage over Fatespinner).

Malconvoker is most definitely a misstep since he isn't in any ways Summoning-focused and I can't see going that road being a good plan for any non-Summoners. That said, I'd also look into Mage of the Arcane Order since it's so awesome for Sorcs.


Lidda: I think she would come out really well as a Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage 2/Rogue 15, maybe Swordsage 1/Rogue 16 for the last special ability, or few levels of Warblade or whatever over the "weaker" Rogue-levels for 4th iterative. She's definitely a TWFer with some throwing thrown in, so Swordsage-dip for Shadow Blade, Assassin's Stance and some Tiger Claw is nearly a must.

She also has a ton of skill points so a large number of Rogue-levels. I don't think Exemplar is warranted with enough Rogue-levels for Skill Mastery. Swashbuckler is used for some combat boost (though not enough to get 16 BAB by 20; c'est la vie) in Insightful Strike (she's bound to have a decent Int) and bonus Weapon Finesse (the build really needs bonus feats).

That gives her a very decent damage output of level 19 SA (by Swordsage 1 - level 17 otherwise) + Assassin's Stance + Dex + Int to damage, and probably Craven-feat for +20 more. We could make her a Wilderness Rogue to get her Hide in Plain Sight for better Sneak Attacking (would still have enough specials to get Skill Mastery but would skip on Crippling Strike which is a pity).


Really, the two builds I can see are:
Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 16/Swordsage 1
and
Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 14/Swordsage 2/Warblade 1

either way, her feats need to include:
(Weapon Finesse)
Daring Outlaw
Shadow Blade
TWF
Quick Draw (for throwing efficiently, and for improved UMD Wandifying)
Craven

Could drop Swashbuckler too, but losing out on Insightful Strike sorta sucks.

Draz74
2009-08-25, 04:40 PM
Lidda: I think she would come out really well as a Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage 2/Rogue 15, maybe Swordsage 1/Rogue 16 for the last special ability, or few levels of Warblade or whatever over the "weaker" Rogue-levels for 4th iterative. She's definitely a TWFer with some throwing thrown in, so Swordsage-dip for Shadow Blade, Assassin's Stance and some Tiger Claw is nearly a must.
Guess I just haven't seen the right pictures of her. I don't remember her being a TWFer at all. That definitely strengthens the argument for Swordsage ... a lot.


Craven

While Craven is very powerful, I'm not sure it fits her very well fluff-wise. Is she cowardly?

I should think if she has at least 13 Rogue levels, then Savvy Rogue is a very important feat to consider.

Eldariel
2009-08-25, 04:55 PM
While Craven is very powerful, I'm not sure it fits her very well fluff-wise. Is she cowardly?

She's a Rogue. Obviously she's cowardly. Why else do you think they have bad Will-saves and have their very combat mechanic tied to "hitting opponents unable to defend themselves properly in really vital spots"? I mean, she has the Halfling Courage-thing going on, but still. Besides, it's too good not to pick up. Refluff it to "Rogue Paragon" or something - embodies everything Rogue stands for in dirty fighting and fighting smart, not strong.

Also, note that she really tackles the usual Saves-problem Rogues suffer of with the multiclassing. Swashbuckler has good Fort, Swordsage has good Will and all but Swash have good Ref.


As for TWF, I offer you the Sudden Draw depiction of Complete Scoundrel:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/compscoundrel_gallery/102059.jpg

Sorry that it had to involve Mialee, but that's literally the only melee combat picture of Lidda I could find.

Also, on a completely unrelated note, I found a non-horrible picture of the Frog Princess (though that may be 'cause it's uncolored and her hair looks like a hair instead of something resembling a sparrow's nest and defying gravity):
http://www.enworld.org/Pozas/Pictures/Iconics/mialee.jpg

Still anorexic and not wearing nearly enough clothes (maybe her Str is too low to carry clothes?), but doesn't make me sick like all other pictures of her.

T.G. Oskar
2009-08-25, 05:30 PM
In Hennet's case, I'd go with the idea of Incarnum and Sorcery, with full Incantatrix levels at the end. Since he'd get more Metamagic Feats, and the important ability of Improved Metamagic.

Something along the lines of Sorcerer 4 (Instant Metamagic variant)/Incarnate (or Totemist) 2/Soulcaster 3/Incantator 10 (probably ditching Necromancy and Enchantment). Granted, one level is missing (which would grant him 9th level spells). I'd say Soulcaster 4, since it raises meldshaping while raising Sorcerer levels, or reduce two levels on Incantatrix and add that to the last level for Fatespinner or Archmage 3. As an important point, aside from Incarnum Spellcasting, he should get a lot of Con and get Open Greater Chakra for his Waist, so that he can finally accomplish his belt fetish. Hennet won't be capable of binding several belts to his Chakra, but at least he'll have some potent soulmelds to complement his Metamagic-infused spellcasting.

I'd go with Totemist, though. Soulcaster grants the least chakra binds at 3rd, and that would mean 4 chakra binds, 5 if Waist is opened.

Afterwards, fill him with...blasty stuff? Hennet seems to be the kind of guy that enjoys blasting stuff...

Elfin
2009-08-25, 06:38 PM
Also, on a completely unrelated note, I found a non-horrible picture of the Frog Princess (though that may be 'cause it's uncolored and her hair looks like a hair instead of something resembling a sparrow's nest and defying gravity):
http://www.enworld.org/Pozas/Pictures/Iconics/mialee.jpg

Still anorexic and not wearing nearly enough clothes (maybe her Str is too low to carry clothes?), but doesn't make me sick like all other pictures of her.

What is she doing with her hand...?
:eek:

T.G. Oskar
2009-08-25, 06:49 PM
What is she doing with her hand...?
:eek:

Never mind that, just look at the amount of pouches!!

Looks like a Liefeld nightmare!

Which explains the anemic state of Mialee...though this seems to be an attempt to show Liefeld how to draw better comics?

Frosty
2009-08-25, 06:50 PM
I think she's fondling her...spell component pouches.

Eldariel
2009-08-25, 06:57 PM
According to this (http://web.archive.org/web/20031206004759/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/dnd/oathofnerull), Hennet has Magic Missile, Mage Armor, Invisibility and Protection from Evil on level 4, so I think a more buffish spell suite is in order rather than a Blastish one.

Elfin
2009-08-25, 07:05 PM
And according to that, he has the feats Alertness, Point Blank Shot, Skill Focus (Concentration), and Toughness. :smallamused:
Sorry, it just always amazes me how terrible WotC is at their own game.

Starbuck_II
2009-08-25, 07:09 PM
Wait, Hennet desires Ember?
I would never had know that had I not seen that link.

T.G. Oskar
2009-08-25, 07:25 PM
Not to mention that it has a bat, which we haven't seen nearly anywhere.

It makes a good starting point, but not a definite point. Besides, having sexy chances to pull off a Quicken Spell, or even a Fell Drain Metamagic while, say, activating a Belt of Battle (or firing Celerity) to shoot with his Manticore Belt soulmeld?

Gotta dream a little, you know.

As for feats, well...yeah, they suck. Alertness is because of the familiar, remember, so he mostly chose from the Player's Handbook, while not choosing feats like Expand Spell. At least, he chose Skill Focus (Concentration) instead of Combat Casting. And had he access to Complete Warrior, he'd have gone for Improved Toughness instead, if he wanted more HP. Still, being part Meldshaper would give him a pretty hefty HP pool, if he really needed it.

But, Point-Blank Shot isn't that bad. Had he had an actual reason to use it (and no, throwing that shortspear or using that crossbow isn't good reason)

Also, Eldariel...it's level 4. He'll probably go with Fireball...his Int is average, so he'll think it's a nice thing to go with. Odd on that choice of Invisibility, though...that shows some smarts.

One final thing: notice how his third highest stat, almost fighting there with Dexterity, is Concentration? It's not that hard to think that Hennet will attempt to get Meldshaper levels eventually.

Though, I feel sad for Ember, VERY sad...I mean, Skill Focus: Move Silently!?!?!? DODGE!?!? I think both the Shadow Sun Ninja and the local monastery of Zuoken have to teach her a lesson on taking proper feats. You know, like...Hidden Talent, or Martial Study, or Shadow Blade...

Elfin
2009-08-25, 07:45 PM
Skill Focus (Move Silently)!!? I didn't think anyone in the history of 3.5 D&D had ever taken Skill Focus (Move Silently).
WotC is just ridiculous. I still can't wrap my head around the fact that they can be so terrible at their own game.

Eldariel
2009-08-25, 07:47 PM
Skill Focus (Move Silently)!!? I didn't think anyone in the history of 3.5 D&D had ever taken Skill Focus (Move Silently).
WotC is just ridiculous. I still can't wrap my head around the fact that they can be so terrible at their own game.

You must remember that Ember was a MONK limited to CORE FEATS. I mean, wtf does a Monk take in Core? The few feats that help Monk are already available as bonus feats. What's next? Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike? Improved Natural Attack would work, but I doubt they planned on it - it just sorta worked for Monks.

shadow_archmagi
2009-08-25, 07:51 PM
I saw the thread title and thought that Iconics was a cool new kind of magic that wasn't very useful, sort of like the truenamer.

Draz74
2009-08-25, 08:21 PM
You must remember that Ember was a MONK limited to CORE FEATS. I mean, wtf does a Monk take in Core? The few feats that help Monk are already available as bonus feats. What's next? Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike? Improved Natural Attack would work, but I doubt they planned on it - it just sorta worked for Monks.

Feats in the PHB that I would rather take than Skill Focus, as a Monk:


Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist (whichever didn't get picked as a bonus feat)
Improved Initiative
Stealthy
Alertness
Acrobatic
Blind-Fight
Weapon Finesse
Ability Focus: stunning fist (oh wait, that's MM, but at least it's Core)
Leadership :smallwink: (oh wait, that's DMG, but at least it's Core)


... yeah, maybe by level 20 you'd have to take Weapon Focus or Skill Focus. But not by Level 3!

Starbuck_II
2009-08-25, 08:37 PM
Feats in the PHB that I would rather take than Skill Focus, as a Monk:


Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist (whichever didn't get picked as a bonus feat)
Improved Initiative
Stealthy
Alertness
Acrobatic
Blind-Fight
Weapon Finesse
Ability Focus: stunning fist (oh wait, that's MM, but at least it's Core)
Leadership :smallwink: (oh wait, that's DMG, but at least it's Core)


... yeah, maybe by level 20 you'd have to take Weapon Focus or Skill Focus. But not by Level 3!

But a Monk can't even take Stunning fist till high level if they didn't pick it at 1st. Look at the Preqs.

T.G. Oskar
2009-08-25, 09:20 PM
Feats in the PHB that I would rather take than Skill Focus, as a Monk:


Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist (whichever didn't get picked as a bonus feat)
Improved Initiative
Stealthy
Alertness
Acrobatic
Blind-Fight
Weapon Finesse
Ability Focus: stunning fist (oh wait, that's MM, but at least it's Core)
Leadership :smallwink: (oh wait, that's DMG, but at least it's Core)


... yeah, maybe by level 20 you'd have to take Weapon Focus or Skill Focus. But not by Level 3!

I'd think about it if I were to take these ones. The bonus to the skills are pretty limited, and most of them don't have much utility except for, say, prerequisites. Stealthy is, arguably, the best of the bunch since Move Silently and Hide still have some precedence (up until the moment the Wizard gets Scrying and pretty much realizes always where you are); Acrobatics gets a tad lost (you need +14 in Tumble to work things out, +24 if you want to actually auto-pass going through squares having enemies around. Alertness gets a bit lost eventually, since you already have the Wisdom and skill points enough to invest on either Listen or Spot. The bonus, albeit unnamed, is a simple +2 on two skills, which you can easily replace even in Core, and that get in the way of your 7 or 8 feats.

Arguably, Weapon Focus would be a relatively more decent choice than Stealthy, Alertness or Acrobatics. Monks aren't well known for hitting a lot, and Weapon Finesse only adds a bit to that; at least this is one Weapon Focus that you can apply to several things, and technically it's one of the best uses of the feat (which is saying enough, actually)

Improved Grapple would have been awesome...with a high Str character. Or someone who actually has some powerful grapple modifiers. Monks...well, unless you work the School of Grappling teachings, isn't pretty powerful.

Improved Initiative, Blind-Fight and Weapon Finesse are truly some of the best choices for a Monk if limiting to strictly Core. Going first is never bad, for example. Blind-Fight is actually a great deterrent against characters going against the one defense you have a bit lower (Dex, since your Wis-based AC applies against touch attacks), plus it makes concealment less of a hassle. And Weapon Finesse lowers a bit of the MAD, since while you won't hit as hard, you'll at least hit...

As for the non-PHB-yet-still-Core feats...Leadership is broken (and Monks consider Charisma to be a dump stat), Improved Natural Attack is almost a must for most Monk builds that want some extra damage (and that know how to raise their damage die even more), and Ability Focus...well, I'd wonder how that'd apply to feats linked to Stunning Fist, though.

I'd also add Snatch Arrows if you took the liberty of taking Deflect Arrows. If you've played Final Fantasy Tactics, you can just tell the DM "hey, thanks for the loot!" (even if it has returning, since you pretty much stopped the arc of return) That feat can spell doom for Master Throwers and I'd say even Bloodstorm Blades, since you effectively disarm them.

Sounds interesting, though I dunno if that would work with Teleporting weapons...

Oh, and checked in the other iconics...wow, now it makes sense!

Mialee has pisspoor Charisma, gruff if not outright rude, probably hates her familiar (a raven, of all familiars...probably because the raves pesters her by saying "I am the servant of a frog...I should be the master, dammit!"), has low alcohol tolerance, only average Constitution and Strength...she's a nutjob.

She also has True Strike, Glitterdust, Invisibility, Web, and believe it or not...Disguise Self. Appearance issues much?
It's fun to see how the other iconics relate to each other.
Ugh...Frog Princess is one thing, but a bard hitting on her!?
Pretty funny.
I am so not going to ask Devis how to woo a woman...
Hilarious.

Starbuck_II
2009-08-25, 09:54 PM
Wait, so Mialee is optimized spell wise?

So at least one Pc they made was done well.

chiasaur11
2009-08-25, 09:58 PM
Wait, so Mialee is optimized spell wise?

So at least one Pc they made was done well.

Makes sense.

Min-maxers are legendary for dumping Cha.

Cieyrin
2009-08-25, 09:58 PM
Improved Grapple would have been awesome...with a high Str character. Or someone who actually has some powerful grapple modifiers. Monks...well, unless you work the School of Grappling teachings, isn't pretty powerful.
On the other hand, considering you get it free through monk and no one does quite as much damage as a monk in a grapple, I don't think it's so bad. Sure, other classes can do it better but do they? Generally not. They're typically happier smacking things with sticks than grabbing and punching them like a monk does.


I'd also add Snatch Arrows if you took the liberty of taking Deflect Arrows. If you've played Final Fantasy Tactics, you can just tell the DM "hey, thanks for the loot!" (even if it has returning, since you pretty much stopped the arc of return) That feat can spell doom for Master Throwers and I'd say even Bloodstorm Blades, since you effectively disarm them.

Sounds interesting, though I dunno if that would work with Teleporting weapons...

Love the FF Tactics reference, because it is so true. I'd rather go Deflect Arrows over Combat Reflexes, given Combat Reflexes serves better with other feats and weapons with reach, things Monks don't generally have access to.

T.G. Oskar
2009-08-25, 10:09 PM
On the other hand, considering you get it free through monk and no one does quite as much damage as a monk in a grapple, I don't think it's so bad. Sure, other classes can do it better but do they? Generally not. They're typically happier smacking things with sticks than grabbing and punching them like a monk does better.

Grapple works better with big creatures, with heaps of Strength, that have at least one or two natural weapons they can pretty much abuse. A creature like that with Monk levels is only adding to the original.


Love the FF Tactics reference, because it is so true. I'd rather go Deflect Arrows over Combat Reflexes, given Combat Reflexes serves better with other feats and weapons with reach, things Monks don't generally have access to.

Combat Reflexes can be used to good degree with a Monk, but out of Core. You need something to increase your size (which lowers your Dex and AC but raises your damage), Decisive Strike (the Monk ACF from PHBII), and the elements to get Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit. Going with one strike as a full-round action for double damage doesn't seem as much, but when ALL of your attacks of opportunity get that, and you just maximized the chances of getting attacks of opportunity, you can show some creatures that hitting you can be the worst thing they can do. A Necklace of Natural Weapons, on your fists, can certainly make it even more dangerous.

But yeah...when you make Ninja's throw you Chaos Blades for free, you know a skill is better than it seems.


Wait, so Mialee is optimized spell wise?

So at least one Pc they made was done well.

Guess what are her 3rd level spell choices...
For those curious: Dispel Magic, Fly...and Fireball...
Also, it seems iconics usually reach around 6th level, and they are based off their 3.0 incarnations, not their 3.5 incarnations. So it may explain why you see some odd stuff.

Draz74
2009-08-25, 10:28 PM
Sorry that it had to involve Mialee, but that's literally the only melee combat picture of Lidda I could find.

Hence why I thought she should maybe be a very non-combat-focused Rogue, possibly going into Exemplar. :smallcool: Maybe she doesn't even have TWF, but in that picture she's just holding two weapons, fighting with one at a time ...


I'd think about it if I were to take these ones. The bonus to the skills are pretty limited, and most of them don't have much utility except for, say, prerequisites.
Yeah, they're obviously not great, but my point was that choosing +2 Hide, +2 Move Silently is an easy choice compared with choosing just +3 Move Silently (as the WotC version did). And if Stealthy is obviously better than Skill Focus, maybe Alertness and Acrobatics are too.


Arguably, Weapon Focus would be a relatively more decent choice than Stealthy, Alertness or Acrobatics. Monks aren't well known for hitting a lot,
Fair enough.


Oh, and checked in the other iconics...wow, now it makes sense!

Where did you read this stuff?

T.G. Oskar
2009-08-25, 10:37 PM
Where did you read this stuff?

Same place where I read the info on the iconics.

Look at one of Eldariel's posts, there's a nifty link to the archives of the D&D novels with all of the iconics. There, you can find stats for nearly all of the 3.0 iconics, including and not limited to Devis (the half-elf bard), Nebin (the gnome Illusionist), Naull (the human Wizard), and even Eberk, IIRC.

There's also the updated stats for the other books in the sequence, right up 'til the end. They pretty much end up as characters of 4th or 6th level, and all of them single-classed. Every single one of them is single-classed, and use only the PHB just in case.

Which is why we can use them as inspiration, but not base exactly upon them.

Draz74
2009-08-25, 10:41 PM
Same place where I read the info on the iconics.

Look at one of Eldariel's posts, there's a nifty link to the archives of the D&D novels with all of the iconics.

Yeah, I found some of those but didn't see which links to click to get from those to the others.

Eldariel
2009-08-25, 10:42 PM
Hence why I thought she should maybe be a very non-combat-focused Rogue, possibly going into Exemplar. :smallcool: Maybe she doesn't even have TWF, but in that picture she's just holding two weapons, fighting with one at a time ...

That's probably because it's the Sudden Draw-picture; that enables you to take an AoO while unarmed (that is, draw weapons as a part of the action) and you can only take AoO with 1 weapon by default, so...

But yeah, few characters have pictures of them in combat; that doesn't really tell anything. Anyways, my point was that Lidda fights with two weapons, and I really think going Exemplar over Rogue is pretty senseless (given that they have the same skill points, it only expands Rogue's skill lists in ways Rogue doesn't care about and the Skill Mastery is actually worse than Rogue's). Or I just want a decent Sneak Attacker in this thread, one or the other.

T.G. Oskar
2009-08-25, 10:46 PM
Yeah, I found some of those but didn't see which links to click to get from those to the others.

Click at the link that says "D&D novel page" right below the whole page. That should take you to articles based off the novels. Look, and then click, for any of the ones that say "Iconic Review".

...Or, if you're lazy, click here (http://web.archive.org/web/20031210043405/www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/dnd).

Elfin
2009-08-25, 11:19 PM
Those sound like some pretty awful books. :smallbiggrin:
Has anyone here read them?

Dhavaer
2009-08-26, 04:16 AM
Those sound like some pretty awful books. :smallbiggrin:
Has anyone here read them?

I have. They're not that bad.

Cieyrin
2009-08-26, 10:40 AM
I have. They're not that bad.

Well, they're not that bad if you're into trashy teen fiction, anyways. I read 'em when they came out and they were okay to my high school brain but, now looking back with my post-college brain, I can only think "Why'd I think these were any good?"


Grapple works better with big creatures, with heaps of Strength, that have at least one or two natural weapons they can pretty much abuse. A creature like that with Monk levels is only adding to the original.

Sure, Grapples always been the bullying tactic, where the bigger and stronger pick on the weaker guys but that doesn't mean it's a monster-only tactic, you just gotta be specific about your target and realize that you it's not an auto-win button in all situations. Yes, you probably don't want to get in a grapple contest with an assassin vine (though I have and I won :smalltongue:) but you can use it effectively against mage-types, first with a Stunning Fist and then Flurry of Grapples him into a non-casting pin (Maybe it's just in my experience but I don't see a lot of mage-types specifically having Silent Spell for grapple situations). I'm just saying discounting grapple tactics is silly. Let's not turn this thread into a monk vs. mage thread, as it's not the time or place and it's been done to death already, anyways.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Ernir
2009-08-26, 09:30 PM
Soveliss, Ranger of the Solstice Glade (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=149583)
Male CG Wild Elf Mystic Ranger 14/Scout 4/Swordsage 2.

All done, I think.

Except for: I can't think of a way to make someone with a Dex bonus of +12 wear armor effectively. Do you guys know of anything?

Also, I am thinking of splicing a level of Wizard in there somewhere. Gets you your own spellbook, and allows you to dump Spellcraft again (no spellcraft checks to prepare spells from the party Wizard's book). Shouldn't lose more BAB either, with fractional bases in use. And we can lose Scribe Scroll for a Fighter Feat!
I might be moving away from the archetype again, though. :smalleek:

But speaking of Wizards, our favourite mutant is next on my list. :smallamused:

Elfin
2009-08-26, 09:56 PM
There's a +1 enhancement called Graceful, which gets rid of the maximum dexterity bonus.

EDIT:And I'm pretty sure he wields a longsword and shortsword, not two shortswords.
(http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph35_gallery/PHB35_PG46_WEB.jpg)

Cieyrin
2009-08-26, 10:42 PM
I'm not sure what Graceful is from but the only enhancement I'm aware of is Nimbleness (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/magweapdesc.pl?Nimbleness^marmortype), which is a +1 enhancement for +2 Max Dex. For an armor, use Nightscale from Underdark. It's exotic but it has no ACP, anyways, so it doesn't really matter. AC +2, Max Dex +10. Nimbleness makes it +12, which is what you're looking for.

T.G. Oskar
2009-08-26, 10:46 PM
Except for: I can't think of a way to make someone with a Dex bonus of +12 wear armor effectively. Do you guys know of anything?

Um...Dastanas? Chahar-Aina? Though...well, both are treated as additions to better armor, and require either Armor Prof.: Light (for Dastanas) or Armor Prof.: Medium (for the Chahar-Aina)

Alternatively, Bracers of Armor. Seriously, with that armor bonus, you can't get much more than that. Add Magic Vestment to your clothes and enjoy the show.


Also, I am thinking of splicing a level of Wizard in there somewhere. Gets you your own spellbook, and allows you to dump Spellcraft again (no spellcraft checks to prepare spells from the party Wizard's book). Shouldn't lose more BAB either, with fractional bases in use. And we can lose Scribe Scroll for a Fighter Feat!
I might be moving away from the archetype again, though. :smalleek

I dunno, it seems counterproductive, even more since he's using Divine Spells and not Wizard spells, so I don't see why he'd need a spellbook?

1st level spells are useful, but by that level, not so much. Besides, the Ranger list isn't so bad, either.

Ernir
2009-08-26, 11:06 PM
There's a +1 enhancement called Graceful, which gets rid of the maximum dexterity bonus.

Ooo. Do you know where that one is?


EDIT:And I'm pretty sure he wields a longsword and shortsword, not two shortswords.
(http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph35_gallery/PHB35_PG46_WEB.jpg)
Would a shortsword and a dagger be an acceptable interpretation? :smalltongue:

Because that way, he can still add his Dexterity bonus to his damage rolls with both weapons due to Shadow Blade.


I'm not sure what Graceful is from but the only enhancement I'm aware of is Nimbleness (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/magweapdesc.pl?Nimbleness^marmortype), which is a +1 enhancement for +2 Max Dex. For an armor, use Nightscale from Underdark. It's exotic but it has no ACP, anyways, so it doesn't really matter. AC +2, Max Dex +10. Nimbleness makes it +12, which is what you're looking for.

Ah. Perfect. Thanks.

Add Magic Vestment to your clothes and enjoy the show.
Why haven't I ever thought of that? Hilarious.


I dunno, it seems counterproductive, even more since he's using Divine Spells and not Wizard spells, so I don't see why he'd need a spellbook?

1st level spells are useful, but by that level, not so much. Besides, the Ranger list isn't so bad, either.

I gave him the feat "Sword of the Arcane Order" (Champions of Valor). Allows him to prepare Wizard spells in his Ranger spell slots. :smallamused:

Level 5 spells are hardly a win-button either at those levels, but it should allow him to contribute more to the pre-battle buff routine, at least. He could cast his own Fly and such.

Also, Wraithstrike. :smallbiggrin:

Elfin
2009-08-26, 11:20 PM
Would a shortsword and a dagger be an acceptable interpretation? :smalltongue:

Because that way, he can still add his Dexterity bonus to his damage rolls with both weapons due to Shadow Blade.

Oh, right. Two shortswords it is, then.

T.G. Oskar
2009-08-26, 11:22 PM
I gave him the feat "Sword of the Arcane Order" (Champions of Valor). Allows him to prepare Wizard spells in his Ranger spell slots. :smallamused:

Level 5 spells are hardly a win-button either at those levels, but it should allow him to contribute more to the pre-battle buff routine, at least. He could cast his own Fly and such.

Also, Wraithstrike. :smallbiggrin:

Why I didn't expected that at all...?
Maybe it's because when I think of Elves, I think of Corellon.
In either case, you get your first 2nd-level spell at level 4, one level lower than a Wizard gets it. That allows you to cast either Glitterdust, Invisibility or Web, albeit once (when your Wizard gets it at least twice; you at least get other spells to cast, including Entangle, and quite possibly Briar Web later), which are always known to be near-battle-winning spells. A Ranger with that, casting as a Divine spell IIRC, and then going pew pew pew with arrows makes it worthwhile (after all, you're stealing one of the Kobold tactics) Since you can move and strike, that means eventually you can get stuff like Lesser Celerity + Full Attack + Rapid Shot + Improved Rapid Shot + Skirmish, with perhaps a dose of Assassin's Stance (if you're near 30 ft) for greater hilarity. You can use Blink if you want to, albeit not as effective as Greater Invisibility, you can Haste, you can go Mirror Image...well, you can use quite a lot of spells, actually.

I reckon if you can use the wands and scrolls as well? I'm not sure if the feat lets you do so. Also, a bit of a shame that Champion of Corellon sucks a bit: that would allow you to use Longsword for Weapon Finesse, though you'd still be limited for Shadow Blade.

Though personally I'd go for just 1 level of Master of Masks, the Gladiator mask, and then dual-wield both the Elven Lightblade and the Elven Thinblade.

Ernir
2009-08-27, 09:34 PM
I bring Mialee (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=149840), Wizard 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 10/Archmage 5. Elven Generalist Transmutation Domain Wizard base.

The only thing I think is special about her is the versatility. She casts anything on the Wizard list, and in the unlikely event she doesn't know it, she can borrow it. :smalltongue:

For sheer power, I would have gone Focused Specialist and dipped Master Specialist. Lots of extra spells and a freed-up feat that way. But for someone who is always the example for every Wizard spell ever, I thought this was more appropriate.


I reckon if you can use the wands and scrolls as well?

Not without that Wizard dip, looks like. :smallfrown:

Eldariel
2009-09-17, 04:35 AM
I'll try to link the characters done to the OP and see what comes out of it.