Who is the best warrior in a Song of Ice and Fire?

[Finn Solomon]

If you took all the many, many great fighters of SOIAF and put them all in a massive fight to the death, who would come out the eventual champion? Assume all fighters are at the prime of their lives.

House Stark and the North:

Lord Eddard Stark. Wields the Valyrian greatsword Ice, capable battle commander during Robert's Rebellion.

Robb Stark. Won every battle during his rebellion, although we never actually see him in hand to hand action.

Greatjon Umber. Huge man who wields an equally huge longsword.

Dacey Mormont. Been using an axe ever since she was a girl.

Qhorin Halfhand. Best of the Night's Watch.

House Lannister and the Rock:

Ser Jaime Lannister. Pre-amputation, obviously. Finest fighter in the Seven Kingdoms?

Ser Ilyn Payne. Creepy tongueless bugger.

Ser Gregor Clegane. The Mountain who Rides, uses a two-handed sword in one hand.

Sandor Clegane. The Hound's ferocity is legendary.

Ser Bronn of the Blackwater: Sellsword serving the Imp, famously won his life during a trial by combat in the Vale.

House Tyrell and the Reach:

Ser Loras Tyrell. Great knight and champion in making.

Ser Garlan Tyrell. Fought brilliantly wearing Lord Renly's armour during the Battle of the Blackwater.

House Arryn and the Vale:

Lyn Corbray. Wields Lady Forlorn, legendary sword.

Bronze Yohn Royce. Great lord and knight.

House Baratheon at Storm's End:

King Robert the First. Fearsome warrior in his youth, some say he won the throne with his warhammer.

House Greyjoy and the Iron Isles:

King Balon Greyjoy. Fierce old man, noted warrior.

Victarion Greyjoy. Can raid like the best of Vikings with that axe of his.

Asha Greyjoy. Married to her axe, with the dirk as her sweet suckling babe?

Theon Greyjoy. Expert archer.

Dagmer Cleftjaw. Took a horrible wound to the face and kept on coming.

House Tully and the Riverlands:

Ser Brynden Tully, the Blackfish. Won great acclaim fighting the Ninepenny Kings.

House Martell of Dorne:

Prince Oberyn Martell. The Red Viper of Dorne brought down the Mountain, Inago Montoya style.

House Targaryen in exile:

Khal Drogo. Genghis Khan, essentially.

Ser Barristan the Bold. Legendary knight in his youth.

Ser Jorah Mormont. Won a tourney once.

Strong Belwas. "STRONG BELWAS LETS EACH MAN CUT HIM ONCE BEFORE HE KILLS HIM! COUNT THE NUMBER OF CUTS TO SEE HOW MANY MEN STRONG BELWAS HAS KILLED!"

Historical Figures:

Aegon the Conqueror. Who better than Aegon the First?

Daeron the Young Dragon. The Alexander the Great of Westeros.

Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. His name is a byword for chivalry and knighthood.

Symeon Star-Eyes. Okay, I don't know much about this guy, but he was a good knight.

Florian the Fool. It says something when you're named "the fool" and people still honour you.

Daemon Blackfyre. Looked every inch the king the second Daeron was not, was the "Warrior himself" with a sword.

Lord Brynden Rivers, Bloodraven. Terrific archer.

Ser Duncan the Tall. From flea-bitten orphan to Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of Morning. "Could have beaten all five of you with one hand while he took a piss with the other."

Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull. Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. Okay he was beaten by Robert, but by all accounts he was a formidable fighter.

[DraPrime]

One of the Targaryens would win, because of the dragons. I forget which ones had dragons (Aegon the conquerer, maybe?), but they would simply incinerate everyone else into oblivion.

[Sneak]

Probably either Jaime, Oberyn, or Gregor.

[Finn Solomon]

One of the Targaryens would win, because of the dragons. I forget which ones had dragons (Aegon the conquerer, maybe?), but they would simply incinerate everyone else into oblivion.

Well, having Dragons would be a one-hit kill. I was thinking more sword to sword.

[Hann]

Jaime, Maybe Robert, Khal Drogo would probably be up there too. Gregor's just too damn big.

[Spiryt]

Gregor's just too damn big.

Since when being big is bad in a fight? :smallconfused:

I didn't read the books (yet, I hope) so I can't really say more.

[Sneak]

Jaime, Maybe Robert, Khal Drogo would probably be up there too. Gregor's just too damn big.

Yeah, I think a two handed Jaime is probably your best bet.

We didn't ever really get to see Robert in action, and I got the impression that Drogo would be more formidable in a battle situation as opposed to a duel type deal.

I still think Oberyn should be up there because he's such a tricky bastard (and could've probably managed to beat Gregor without getting mauled in the process). But I wouldn't count Gregor out, either—despite his size, I don't remember him being described as exceedingly slow or lumbering.

[Dienekes]

Jaime is always considered at the top. And he has shown that he is indeed formidable as a jouster (beaten fairly by the Hound the eventual winner of the tourney, as opposed to the second place, Loras, who used a trick to defeat the Mountain). However outside of that we only have one instance of how truly good he was at a fight, and that was when he battled Robb and took down people left and right trying to get to him. While impressive, the only other notes of how strong he was comes from a girl infatuated with him, and his own admittedly arrogant mind. He undoubtedly was one of the great, if not the greatest warriors of Westeros, before the hand thing anyway.

Sandor is better than the Gregor and I would argue better than Oberyn. As evidence when Jaime lost his hand when he was looking through the warrior's he had he compared them all negatively to Sandor. Also in the first book Sandor fought Gregor at the tourney, during which he never attacked just stood there defending Loras against the raging Gregor. This was a bit underplayed since we didn't get to see how much a monster Gregor was yet, but overall I found this to be more impressive than Oberyn's assault on the Mountain (much less epic though)

Let us not forget Thoros of Myr, the red priest. The only evidence we have of his prowess is that he was first over the walls of the Pyke (his survival is incredibly impressive) and then winning the melee. While undoubtedly part of the reason for his victories are his flaming swords, but still he is the only person to beat the Hound (He took part of the melee and came at him many times before he was beaten back). Pity we've never seen him fight onscreen.

A character I would argue is one of the best is Syrio Forel. His skill may be the best on the list. However, the former first sword's fighting style does not lend well against heavily armored knights. Looking at his only battle he disarms and/or kills five guards using a wooden practice sword before taking on and completely outclassing one of the Kingsguard. In that fight he dodged sword blows and laid down attacks until the near impregnable knight cut his weapon in two. I'd definitely back Syrio as the most skilled fighter in the series.

However the person I believe who had the most impressive fight, again off screen, was Greatjon Umber. Now he was often regarded as the big badass of the North army, who could laugh off incredible pain. However during the Red Wedding he is disarmed, incredibly drunk, and taken by surprise. Apparently he fought off 30 people in this state. Sandor had trouble fighting 2 when he was armed and drunk, Greatjon fought 30.

Others to look for where Areo Hotah, who we've never actually seen fight (ok he beheaded one guy riddled with arrows) but from his backstory alone could be one of the most impressive fighters on Westeros. Also Donal Noye, simply because he dueled a giant in one on one combat and tied. Quorin Halfhand, also of the wall once he lost his sword hand he simply switched hands and was still considered the best fighter on the Watch.

Now looking at historically there really only is one answer, The Warrior Reborn, Daemon Blackfyre. He mastered all the weapons of the battlefield and was considered a living legend.

[The_JJ]

Jaime is always considered at the top. And he has shown that he is indeed formidable as a jouster (beaten fairly by the Hound the eventual winner of the tourney, as opposed to the second place, Loras, who used a trick to defeat the Mountain). However outside of that we only have one instance of how truly good he was at a fight, and that was when he battled Robb and took down people left and right trying to get to him. While impressive, the only other notes of how strong he was comes from a girl infatuated with him, and his own admittedly arrogant mind. He undoubtedly was one of the great, if not the greatest warriors of Westeros, before the hand thing anyway.

Sandor is better than the Gregor and I would argue better than Oberyn. As evidence when Jaime lost his hand when he was looking through the warrior's he had he compared them all negatively to Sandor. Also in the first book Sandor fought Gregor at the tourney, during which he never attacked just stood there defending Loras against the raging Gregor. This was a bit underplayed since we didn't get to see how much a monster Gregor was yet, but overall I found this to be more impressive than Oberyn's assault on the Mountain (much less epic though)

Let us not forget Thoros of Myr, the red priest. The only evidence we have of his prowess is that he was first over the walls of the Pyke (his survival is incredibly impressive) and then winning the melee. While undoubtedly part of the reason for his victories are his flaming swords, but still he is the only person to beat the Hound (He took part of the melee and came at him many times before he was beaten back). Pity we've never seen him fight onscreen.

A character I would argue is one of the best is Syrio Forel. His skill may be the best on the list. However, the former first sword's fighting style does not lend well against heavily armored knights. Looking at his only battle he disarms and/or kills five guards using a wooden practice sword before taking on and completely outclassing one of the Kingsguard. In that fight he dodged sword blows and laid down attacks until the near impregnable knight cut his weapon in two. I'd definitely back Syrio as the most skilled fighter in the series.

However the person I believe who had the most impressive fight, again off screen, was Greatjon Umber. Now he was often regarded as the big badass of the North army, who could laugh off incredible pain. However during the Red Wedding he is disarmed, incredibly drunk, and taken by surprise. Apparently he fought off 30 people in this state. Sandor had trouble fighting 2 when he was armed and drunk, Greatjon fought 30.

Others to look for where Areo Hotah, who we've never actually seen fight (ok he beheaded one guy riddled with arrows) but from his backstory alone could be one of the most impressive fighters on Westeros. Also Donal Noye, simply because he dueled a giant in one on one combat and tied. Quorin Halfhand, also of the wall once he lost his sword hand he simply switched hands and was still considered the best fighter on the Watch.

Now looking at historically there really only is one answer, The Warrior Reborn, Daemon Blackfyre. He mastered all the weapons of the battlefield and was considered a living legend.


This plus a shout out to Barristan the Bold and the Sword of Morning. Gotta love the Kings Guard.

I think we also don't give enough credit to young Robert Barathon, tainted as we are by our close up of the man's later, les glorious, years.

[Sneak]

Yeah, I knew Sandor was up there, I just didn't consider him to be the top of the top in terms of pure dueling ability. Syrio Forel, though—I had forgotten about him. He's definitely up there somewhere. Mr. Selmy, too.

[DraPrime]

Well, having Dragons would be a one-hit kill. I was thinking more sword to sword.

Well it was part of their weaponry.

But anyways, if there are no dragons, I'd hand it either to Syrio (even though he isn't on the list) or Gregor. Seriously, Gregor is just unbelievably tough. It's nearly impossible to kill him. Even now, we're not sure if he died. Oberyn had him pinned to the ground by impaling him through the chest, and Gregor was still able to survive, and win the fight. In fact, no one wanted to fight against him for Tyrion in the first place. He's that feared by everyone else. So along with his great fighting abilities, he also has a psychological advantage.

However, Syrio might be able take him. As mentioned before, he beat 5 guards using a wooden practice sword. That's pretty damn impressive. He could possibly beat Gregor the way Oberyn almost did, except that Syrio specializes in the use of the sword, not in the use of the spear. He'd have to get close, and that's pretty hard when Gregor's sword is what, 6 feet long? I recall it being described like that at one point in the books.


Since when being big is bad in a fight? :smallconfused:

I didn't read the books (yet, I hope) so I can't really say more.

In the end, Geralt could beat them all. :smallwink:

[Zocelot]

Many of the characters listed have been defeated in fair one on one fights, failed to survive situations where a more capable warrior would have, or their prowess is unclear.

I'd say the warriors who are the most likely to win are Greatjon Umber, Ser Jaime Lannister, and Syrio Forel. It really depends on the type of fight. (I've ignored the historical examples, because it's hard to tell what is exaggeration and what is real)

[Dienekes]

Well it was part of their weaponry.

But anyways, if there are no dragons, I'd hand it either to Syrio (even though he isn't on the list) or Gregor. Seriously, Gregor is just unbelievably tough. It's nearly impossible to kill him. Even now, we're not sure if he died. Oberyn had him pinned to the ground by impaling him through the chest, and Gregor was still able to survive, and win the fight. In fact, no one wanted to fight against him for Tyrion in the first place. He's that feared by everyone else. So along with his great fighting abilities, he also has a psychological advantage.

However, Syrio might be able take him. As mentioned before, he beat 5 guards using a wooden practice sword. That's pretty damn impressive. He could possibly beat Gregor the way Oberyn almost did, except that Syrio specializes in the use of the sword, not in the use of the spear. He'd have to get close, and that's pretty hard when Gregor's sword is what, 6 feet long? I recall it being described like that at one point in the books.



In the end, Geralt could beat them all. :smallwink:

1) Who's Geralt?

Oberyn only beat Gregor because he was smart enough to stay out of his reach. The only person shown to beat him within normal fighting distance is Sandor. Syrio would not have been able to defeat Gregor because he simply was not strong enough. His thin sword would have batted at Gregor quite a bit but would have caused little damage, and within Gregor's massive range his sword would have cleaved through him like it did on that peasant boy. You can't really regard skill on who could beat who because some do simply have an advantage. Syrio was highly skilled, but he would have had to work against the lowliest knight do to his size and the lightness of his blade.

Also it should be noted Bronn was willing to fight the Mountain if Tyrion had anything to offer that would make it intelligent to risk the fight. Tyrion had nothing and so all he got from Bronn was a good luck.

And to The_JJ, your mentions are fine though I'd say Jaime is better than Barristan. And the Sword of the Morning was worse than Daemon, though they are both great swordsman.

And as for Robert, he beat Rhaegar. And Rhaegar was considered to be a great swordsman, though not the best. I actually think Robert's true forte was in diplomacy over combat, though he'd never admit it. The fat drunken fool could charm enemies to being friends just by having dinner with them.

[Spiryt]

In the end, Geralt could beat them all. :smallwink:

Possible, but he uses dangerous, illegall performance-enhancing drug substances.

[The_JJ]

Well it was part of their weaponry.

But anyways, if there are no dragons, I'd hand it either to Syrio (even though he isn't on the list) or Gregor. Seriously, Gregor is just unbelievably tough. It's nearly impossible to kill him. Even now, we're not sure if he died. Oberyn had him pinned to the ground by impaling him through the chest, and Gregor was still able to survive, and win the fight. In fact, no one wanted to fight against him for Tyrion in the first place. He's that feared by everyone else. So along with his great fighting abilities, he also has a psychological advantage.

However, Syrio might be able take him. As mentioned before, he beat 5 guards using a wooden practice sword. That's pretty damn impressive. He could possibly beat Gregor the way Oberyn almost did, except that Syrio specializes in the use of the sword, not in the use of the spear. He'd have to get close, and that's pretty hard when Gregor's sword is what, 6 feet long? I recall it being described like that at one point in the books.

Disagree. The man's a monster on the battlefield but dumb as a rock and prone to roid rage. Obyern took him via taunting, lost by gloating. Sandor was able to just stand there and deflect shot after shot while Gregor raged. My theory? Intimidation. Intimidation and way more armor than anyone else can put on. Suffiecent planning or ballsyness (or familiarity, in Sandor's case and unmitigated hate in both his and Obyern's) means a giant on the ropes.

Gregor is good, and a real terror, but you have to remember that he was also Cersei's first choice. And so by definition, more showy than substance. :smallbiggrin:

Now here's the fun part. Who, of the surviving, unmaimed, and still mentally stable is the best warrior in Westros, as of book four?

Have fun with that one.

[Sneak]

Now here's the fun part. Who, of the surviving, unmaimed, and still mentally stable is the best warrior in Westros, as of book four?

Have fun with that one.

Hmm.

Maybe Barristan or Victarion. If Sandor is alive, then he would definitely be a contender, but I'm not sure he would quite qualify as "mentally stable."

[The_JJ]

That's what I was thinking. Or the Arryn vassals untouched by war. I mean, we haven't seen them fight at all, but that just means they're not as deadified. Assume equal distribution of badassitude, and they must have the best fighters on their side. Just remember what they say about assumptions.

Maybe one of the Tyrells? Loras can tear it up in a tourney fight, and did well enough on his first real battlefield, and Garlan's supposed to be only a little worse, but has more actual experience.

Huh. I'm kinda suprised no ones tried to exploit that before. Wilas = the crippled heir. Garlan = does stuff and is really good fighter. Loras = fangirls and praise. Sucks to be the middle child, doesn't it?

[DraPrime]

Disagree. The man's a monster on the battlefield but dumb as a rock and prone to roid rage. Obyern took him via taunting, lost by gloating. Sandor was able to just stand there and deflect shot after shot while Gregor raged. My theory? Intimidation. Intimidation and way more armor than anyone else can put on. Suffiecent planning or ballsyness (or familiarity, in Sandor's case and unmitigated hate in both his and Obyern's) means a giant on the ropes.

Well, Gregor is still nearly impossible to kill. I mean, he was impaled through the chest, stabbed many times in other places (specifically the armpits, which contain some arteries if I remember correctly), poisoned, and he still had the strength to kill Oberyn with his bare hands.. And it's implied that he survived the poison, although we'll just have to wait for the next book to come out to find out. Overall, even if you're like Sandor who can hold against his brother, he's still got the brute strength to keep on going, and to kill you.

Of course, if both fighters are on horses, then the other guy just needs a mare that's in heat and he wins. Loras Tyrell almost succeeded with this.


1) Who's Geralt?

Someone outside of this series. It's something that Spiryt understands.

[Sneak]

That's what I was thinking. Or the Arryn vassals untouched by war. I mean, we haven't seen them fight at all, but that just means they're not as deadified. Assume equal distribution of badassitude, and they must have the best fighters on their side. Just remember what they say about assumptions.

Maybe one of the Tyrells? Loras can tear it up in a tourney fight, and did well enough on his first real battlefield, and Garlan's supposed to be only a little worse, but has more actual experience.

Huh. I'm kinda suprised no ones tried to exploit that before. Wilas = the crippled heir. Garlan = does stuff and is really good fighter. Loras = fangirls and praise. Sucks to be the middle child, doesn't it?

One of the Arryn vassals is a possibility. As for the Tyrells...Loras might be dead. And I have a pretty bad memory, but I seem to recall Garlan being described as good, but not great.

Howland Reed is also another possibility. We haven't actually seen him "on-screen," as it were, but he did survive the Tower of Joy (where Lyanna was being held, guarded by the original awesome Kingsguard) with Ned.

[Dienekes]

I forgot Garlan, he's better at Loras with a sword, and was known for practicing against 3 men and often coming out on top. He was very very good. Actually, makes you wonder why Loras gets all the praise.

As for who's still alive and in fighting condition. Gregolem may be a contender, when he's shown. Greatjon is still captured in a tower. Sandor is heavily implied to be still alive. Garlan, of course. Areo Hotah. Victareon Greyjoy. Shagga, son of Dolf (Ok, no idea how good he is, but the man is hilarious).

Also a side note, nowhere does Gregor show that he is stupid. He is shown to be very clever when it comes to planning ambushes and to have some of the darkest (witty, but dark) comments heard by others. His problem is he flies into rages, which seeing how he crushed Oberyn's scull is working out rather well for him.

You see the problem with getting strung up on who's the best fighter is because it's shown that the real key to surviving and to victory is to have a conniver working for you. Give me Tywin over any of these folk any day.

[Achilles]

On a completely off topic note, I've high fived George RR Martin and had about an hour or so conversation with him on a few occasions. He lives in Albuquerque and I live in Santa Fe, so I run into him at local Sci-Fi conventions. His beard is glorious and he has a plethora of sweet hats.

[pita]

Hot Pie is the greatest warrior in the realm.

[The_JJ]

I forgot Garlan, he's better at Loras with a sword, and was known for practicing against 3 men and often coming out on top. He was very very good. Actually, makes you wonder why Loras gets all the praise.

He's prettier.


As for who's still alive and in fighting condition. Gregolem may be a contender, when he's shown. Greatjon is still captured in a tower. Sandor is heavily implied to be still alive. Garlan, of course. Areo Hotah. Victareon Greyjoy. Shagga, son of Dolf (Ok, no idea how good he is, but the man is hilarious).

Gregolem is fan speculation at this point. :smalltongue: In a tower counts as alive, but he's certainly out of action. If Sandor's alive, but I don't think he's fighting anyone soon (totally chilling with the monks, right? That's my theory.) Shagga is awesome.
"Chop off his manhood and feed it to the goats."
"No please not my... beard?"


Also a side note, nowhere does Gregor show that he is stupid. He is shown to be very clever when it comes to planning ambushes and to have some of the darkest (witty, but dark) comments heard by others. His problem is he flies into rages, which seeing how he crushed Oberyn's scull is working out rather well for him.


Well, either he plans it or his cadre of slime and his boss, the one and only Tywin plan stuff. I'd say number two. And flying into rages is stupid.


You see the problem with getting strung up on who's the best fighter is because it's shown that the real key to surviving and to victory is to have a conniver working for you. Give me Tywin over any of these folk any day.

Fine, give me a pissed off son with a crossbow. And then get me Littlefinger, dammit. Yeah, that's more or less the point I was making with the whole "Who's still alive an well?" comment.


On a completely off topic note, I've high fived George RR Martin and had about an hour or so conversation with him on a few occasions. He lives in Albuquerque and I live in Santa Fe, so I run into him at local Sci-Fi conventions. His beard is glorious and he has a plethora of sweet hats.

I'm so stealing your identity.

[Spiryt]

Well, Gregor is still nearly impossible to kill. I mean, he was impaled through the chest, stabbed many times in other places (specifically the armpits, which contain some arteries if I remember correctly), poisoned, and he still had the strength to kill Oberyn with his bare hands.. And it's implied that he survived the poison, although we'll just have to wait for the next book to come out to find out. Overall, even if you're like Sandor who can hold against his brother, he's still got the brute strength to keep on going, and to kill you.

I'm probably going to stop reading this thread, since I will probably want to read it myself.

But I'm just going to say that if Gregor is really 8 foot and more than 350 punds (is it correct?)... That's really huge advantage.

Depends on the fight too- if it's civilian sword fight with longswords, pants and shirts, when one quick slice to the wrist is likely to end the fight - then his size matters a bit less.

Still he has giant advantage of reach, trip, grapple, punching, body work, slamming, control and changing direction of even very heavy sword, in bashing aside enemy's weapon and probably few other things.

If it's fight with one handed swords and shields, then his advantage raises. AFAIK this style hugely favor those of bigger stature, and quick attacks to the wrist etc, are largely ruled out.

If it's armored fight, with poweful blows, much more important grappling, trampling, and all - his advantage raises even more. He may be actually able to knock armored people out with a sword, which is generally rather hard to do. He is able to just run over guy, hold him on the ground and finish with dagger. Et cetera...

It's generally a myth that huge size make you "slow and clumsy".
It does, to some extent, but not in matter that matters so much in the fight. So huge guy wouldn't probably be too good football (soccer) forward beacuse he canot speed up, slow down, turn direction in run so fast.

Just look at this acrobations (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K30gm2OFhY). Of course, Wrestling is about as close to real fight as Power Rangers, but it perfectly shows that Huge, and in one instance fat and ill (acromegaly) guy doesn't have to be clumsy or slow.

Lightweight boxer will indeed be quite faster than heavyweight, but the difference isn't even in 5% big enough to change the fact that fight would be an execution (of course assuming that lightweight isn't Oscar de la Hoya, and hw some local level thug :smallamused:)

If one want to find some real, clear and confirmed disadvantage of such size it is going to be endurance of course. The bigger you are, the bigger pressure over your heart, blood vessels, lungs et cetera is (even though they're big too). And your muscles must perform bigger work to just move the whole system around. That why cyclist, longdistance runners and racewalkers are often 60kg in boots, even when they're pretty muscled.

Again, I don't know what level of realism and all exist in SoIaF.

Kinda long post, but maybe my last in the thread so... :smallwink:




Someone outside of this series. It's something that Spiryt understands.

Geralt of Rivia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geralt_of_Rivia)

[DraPrime]

Actually, I just realized that a faceless man could possibly win in a fight against these people. Granted, they're more stealth based than anything, but that guy who granted Arya three kills was very good at what he did. In a straight up fight a faceless man may still find a way out of it. They seem to have some weird powers, like shapeshifting. Who knows what else they can do? I wouldn't say they're serious contenders yet for "best warrior" but they could be. We just don't know enough about them.

Although the fact that Tyrion says (in his thoughts) that he lacks the money to pay a faceless man shows that they are pretty effective killing machines. He's a Lannister, so he should be pretty rich. If he can't afford one of these guys, you gotta wonder how good they are exactly.

[The_JJ]

Yeah, we just don't know, but I'm guessing they're a more sneaky, sneaky, I'm just a servent lalala-*STAB*lalala.

As to Tyrion's wealth, he's a Lannister but not House Lannister. Even as an heir he has less land (and thus income) than, say, Littlefinger.

Sure, he probably gets an allowance from his father, but ultimately, he's actually dirt poor... until he inheirits.

This is why the Crusades and the Conquistadoring bussiness were very popular with the second son's of nobility, they could go and carve out their own estates. It was either that, begging off your brother, joining the clergy, or mercenary work. Or hoping your brother died.
Or arranging your brother's death.

[DraPrime]

You know what, I actually take back my support of Gregor. Ser Arthur Dayne is easily better. Only Howland Reed and Ned survived the fight with him. We don't know exactly how many men were involved in the fight, but I think it's safe to assume that it was far more than the usual amount needed to kill a man. And Jaime said that he could never have defeated Dayne. So even with his hand, when he's one of the best fighters around, Jaime couldn't have stood a chance against him. I don't care how insanely strong Gregor is, because Dayne still had the skill to kick his ass. Pretty much everyone respects him, even though he was on the losing side. It just seems like he would be the best.

[pita]

You know what, I actually take back my support of Gregor. Ser Arthur Dayne is easily better. Only Howland Reed and Ned survived the fight with him. We don't know exactly how many men were involved in the fight, but I think it's safe to assume that it was far more than the usual amount needed to kill a man. And Jaime said that he could never have defeated Dayne. So even with his hand, when he's one of the best fighters around, Jaime couldn't have stood a chance against him. I don't care how insanely strong Gregor is, because Dayne still had the skill to kick his ass. Pretty much everyone respects him, even though he was on the losing side. It just seems like he would be the best.

Actually, we know the exact number. It was seven men sent to kill three men. Two of the seven survived. The seven were comprised of lords who knew how to fight.
Also, Gregor lost a battle. I mean, he won, but that was because someone gave it up after being in a winning position.
Oberyn Martell is the best warrior in the Song of Ice and Fire.
After Hot Pie, that is. None can beat Hot Pie.

[DraPrime]

Actually, we know the exact number. It was seven men sent to kill three men. Two of the seven survived. The seven were comprised of lords who knew how to fight.
Also, Gregor lost a battle. I mean, he won, but that was because someone gave it up after being in a winning position.
Oberyn Martell is the best warrior in the Song of Ice and Fire.
After Hot Pie, that is. None can beat Hot Pie.

Oh, seven? Well then, that still proves him to be awesome. Although he might just lose to Hot Pie...

[Finn Solomon]

I completely forgot to list Syrio Forel, Thoros of Myr and Brienne of Tarth.

[thorgrim29]

Brienne? please. I mean, she is freakishly huge for a woman all right (that would make her about average for this contest in a world where nobles are mostly 6 feet, 200+ pounds) but she's not shown to be exceptionally competent (well, she does get a close win in that one melee).

No, best fighter would have to be Dayne. Best one as of feast of crows?
Gregolem if he exists and is not a pathetic cop out by false maester/mad scientist guy. Apart from him, hard to say but Greatjohn if he's not too tortured, the Hound if he's not dead, or someone else we don't know about yet, who'll end up serving Danaeris and joining her awesome bodyguard squad and chilling with the imp and the goat guy.

[Dhavaer]

1) Who's Geralt?

The Witcher.

[chiasaur11]

The Witcher.

Well, if we're adding in characters from every fantasy book, it's fair odds most of them don't know much about how to deal with Ankh Morpork street fighting.

And if a man can kill werewolves with his bare hands...

Thing is, we probably ain't. So...


yeah.

[Dienekes]

Brienne? please. I mean, she is freakishly huge for a woman all right (that would make her about average for this contest in a world where nobles are mostly 6 feet, 200+ pounds) but she's not shown to be exceptionally competent (well, she does get a close win in that one melee).

She out lances Loras and out fights a starved chained Jaime. Lannister himself claims she was a great warrior. Not up to par with himself, though I doubt he'd place anyone on par with himself. She is shown at numerous times to outfight known men and win.

Now I'm all for saying Loras wasn't as good as his reputation, but she was an impressive fighter. Not the best, but impressive.

And I stand by my statement that Dayne was not the best of all time, numerous legendary and near legendary could best him. Daemon Blackfyre for instance was seen still in complete awe by a character in The Sworn Sword where he was shown to be the greatest warrior of the age.


YAnd Jaime said that he could never have defeated Dayne.

Actually if memory serves, Jaime said that Dayne could beat everyone around him. He does not include himself when addressing Dayne. Meaning he probably places himself after Dayne but his ego is unable to cope with it.

Yeah... I don't like Jaime.


Fine, give me a pissed off son with a crossbow.

You mean give you one incredibly sneaky spider who cleverly manipulates the pissed off son to kill his father. Re-read the passage. Varys basically spoon feeds him the situation so he can have his revenge.


Well, either he plans it or his cadre of slime and his boss, the one and only Tywin plan stuff. I'd say number two. And flying into rages is stupid.

On the contrary, his rages have made him one of the most feared men in the Seven Kingdoms. He's a brute. Undoubtedly, he has no plans to make his life better, and understands he is a pawn to Tywin. However, reread the passages around him. He's grotesque, disgusting, twisted, and (tied with Ramsay Bolton) pure evil, but he knows what he is about. He's methodical, practiced, and seems to know how to work a situation to allow him to do what he wants, namely kill, rape, and get wealth.

His only truly idiotic moment is the attack on Loras. Which, I believe, he thought his political contacts would protect him from any repercussions. Or he did go into his infamous hulk rage that made him such a feared man to begin with.

[Finn Solomon]

Brienne? please. I mean, she is freakishly huge for a woman all right (that would make her about average for this contest in a world where nobles are mostly 6 feet, 200+ pounds) but she's not shown to be exceptionally competent (well, she does get a close win in that one melee).


Give her a little credit, she beat a lot of guys and managed to kill that wild bear with a blunted tourney sword in Harrenhal.

[Mewtarthio]

No, a bunch of archers killed the bear. Brienne just managed to stay alive long enough for the cavalry to show up (which, granted, is still impressive, just not superhuman).

A Faceless Man probably could kill anyone you sent him after, but that doesn't mean he's the best fighter. The only one we've seen in action, Jaqen, avoided confronting his targets directly except when absolutely necessary (i.e. the prison break, and even then he had allies and tricks). They're probably very good fighters, granted, but they rely primarily on stealth and magic, the latter of which their targets generally aren't prepared to counter. Heck, Jaqen managed to land himself in prison somehow, so they aren't perfect assassins.

Seeing as this is George RR Martin we're talking about, my vote is that everyone dies. I don't know who'd be the last one standing, but he'd quickly succumb to his wounds. This, naturally, means that the real winner is Littlefinger, who set this whole scenario up somehow.

[mitch0816]

One of the Targaryens would win, because of the dragons. I forget which ones had dragons (Aegon the conquerer, maybe?), but they would simply incinerate everyone else into oblivion.

Hehe, well my assumption for this question is that everyone is at the peak of their fighting careers and are equipped to their preference. Also, i'm assuming that they are not being assisted by pets/animals such as a direwolf (Robb/Jon) or a dragon (Aegon I/other Targaryens) and that they are not mounted.

So, with these assumptions I would have to say that my short list would include Ser Arthur Dayne, Aemon Blackfyre, Lord Robert Baratheon, Sandor "The Hound" Clegane, Ser Jaime "the Kingslayer" Lannister and perhaps the Red Viper.

The martial skill of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, is based purely on hearsay as we don't actually get to witness him in combat but we know that he destroyed the Smiling Knight in single combat and was considered by many in the book (notably Ned and Jaime) to be the greatest swordman they ever knew/of all time. Not a bad resume, not to mention my personal favourite for the title.

Then there is Aemon Blackfyre who, in regards to the ASOIAF series, is ancient history but he was described as having fought "like the Warrior himself". Not bad.

From memory, ser Jaime believes that he could best the likes of Sandor and Gregor Clegane and Greatjon Umber etc despite them being physically stronger than him but I think i got the impression that he wasn't so confident when referring to some people in the past, one of them being Robert Baratheon (another might've been Dayne). I may be wrong but that is the impression i got. I looked through the books quickly to find the passage but couldn't find it, if someone could find it then I would love to reread it and either confirm/abolish my suspicions. Not to mention that a young Ser Jaime held off the Smiling Knight for a while before Ser Arthur Dayne took over.

With that in mind the Usurper, Robert Baratheon, would definitely be up there with the best of them. The man was huge and a reputed fighter as well. He defeated Rhaegar Targaryen who was a legend in his own right.

Sandor Clegane is one of my favourite characters from the books and an extremely capable fighter. I would love to have seen him come up against the Kingslayer when they were both fit and well so he could put Jaime's skills to the test. That would have been an interesting encounter. Arguments for Sandor have already been brought up such as the fact that he stood before his brother the Mountain's fury and survived, the fact he beat Beric Dondarrion in single combat when Beric had a flaming sword, plus a few other things.

The Red Viper is obviously a very skilled and crafty fighter, which he shows in his duel with the Mountain, despite ultimately being killed.

So, this is my short list and my choice would most likely be Ser Arthur Dayne as his achievements speak for themselves, plus we are given a few direct recollections of him from the likes of Jaime and Ned which are first-hand and thus, most likely accurate.

My other choice would be Daemon Blackfyre, though his case is built upon rumours and legends, which is why i went for Dayne.

cheers...

[Yoren]

If its a free form, anything goes deathmatch, with horses and no set boundaries (I'm assuming no dragons, cause then Dany just serves everyone up to her 3 dragons and calls it a day) I'd say Drogo comes out the winner. I can just see him riding circles around all the knights until he gets lucky and puts an arrow through their visor or he gets them so tired they fall off their horses.

In a knockdown drag out arena fight I have to say Arthur Dayne comes out on top. Like mitch0816 said Dayne is a legend and both Ned and Jaime have both said he was the greatest knight they had ever met. Plus the general feeling I get from the books is that Arthur Dayne is considered to be the best of Aery's Seven which is perhaps the most skilled Kingsguard in history. Also he's got Dawn: which (if Jaime can be believed) wrecks opponents' swords during the course of the fight. I assume it does a number on armor too.

[mitch0816]

Oh and, though it may be futile, I secretly hope that Jon Snow grows to be a really great warrior, and given that many readers, including myself, believe him to be the son of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark (who could very well be the Knight of the Laughing Tree) I think that he could be destined to be a reputable warrior.

[Hawriel]

Dunc the Lunk

[pita]

I'm reminded of the interview with GRRM when someone asked him how many books are going to be in the series, and Martin said "Six. In the fifth book everyone dies, and the sixth is a thousand pages describing snow." He later changed the number to seven, but it's still funny.

[Eldan]

I'd read that. I like snow.

[pita]

I'd read that. I like snow.

California snow or normal snow?

[Eldan]

No idea what california snow is like, but I mean the grey sludge that falls from the sky in switzerland.

[thorgrim29]

It's cocaine

[Nerocite]

None can beat Hot Pie.

Hodor can beat Hot pie.

We also have Qyburn's experiment, which is probably some sort of zombie.

[Weezer]

I would say Arthur Dayne is the best of all the knights depicted in the novels, his final duel w/ Ned and company, the admiration that Jaimie has for him all seem to point to his preeminence as a knight.

We cant really comment on the historical knights, Aemon the Dragonknight, Florian the fool etc. because they haven't been fleshed out enough and probably any accounts we did get would be greatly exaggerated. Also the knights that are shown in the dunk & egg stories, Baelon Breakspear, the laughing storm etc. cant really be measured except among themselves.

[averagejoe]

I think people might be underestimating Strong Belwas. Sure, he does have the unfortunate tendency to be stylish where he should be substantive, but he is also the only one who is an actual professional at fighting people. Not in battles or tourneys, but actually fighting people one-on-one-or-more to the death. And he's good at it; good enough to get cut exactly once by every person he has fought and still be alive and healthy. He has a good grasp of tactics and, while he does tend to put on a show where he should end it, I believe he's canny enough to avoid doing so in a tactically compromising way. The only cravat is that Oberyn Martell would obviously beat him pretty much every time, as the whole "getting cut once" thing makes it pretty much impossible to survive poisoned weapons. The only way he'd have a chance is if he knew about the poison ahead of time.

[Sneak]

I think people might be underestimating Strong Belwas. Sure, he does have the unfortunate tendency to be stylish where he should be substantive, but he is also the only one who is an actual professional at fighting people. Not in battles or tourneys, but actually fighting people one-on-one-or-more to the death. And he's good at it; good enough to get cut exactly once by every person he has fought and still be alive and healthy. He has a good grasp of tactics and, while he does tend to put on a show where he should end it, I believe he's canny enough to avoid doing so in a tactically compromising way. The only cravat is that Oberyn Martell would obviously beat him pretty much every time, as the whole "getting cut once" thing makes it pretty much impossible to survive poisoned weapons. The only way he'd have a chance is if he knew about the poison ahead of time.


The only cravat is that Oberyn Martell would obviously


cravat (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cravat)

...er...

I believe you mean "caveat." :smalltongue:

I agree with your point, though.

[Yoren]

I think people might be underestimating Strong Belwas. Sure, he does have the unfortunate tendency to be stylish where he should be substantive, but he is also the only one who is an actual professional at fighting people. Not in battles or tourneys, but actually fighting people one-on-one-or-more to the death. And he's good at it; good enough to get cut exactly once by every person he has fought and still be alive and healthy. He has a good grasp of tactics and, while he does tend to put on a show where he should end it, I believe he's canny enough to avoid doing so in a tactically compromising way. The only cravat is that Oberyn Martell would obviously beat him pretty much every time, as the whole "getting cut once" thing makes it pretty much impossible to survive poisoned weapons. The only way he'd have a chance is if he knew about the poison ahead of time.

There is no doubt that Strong Belwas is a very formidable fighter. However both he and a knight of the Kingsguard are "professional fighters". A knight's job (especially if he has forsworn lands and marriage as those of the KG did) is to fight and fight well: its what they are breed and trained to do.

While Belwas might have more experience in the arena, I think the training a knight goes through daily is more than enough to keep him up to speed. When we see Jon training the combat is very real with only the blunted blades saving the combatants from grievous harm.

Plus we don't know how Belwas would fair against an opponent in full plate. The only other time we've seen an arakh against armor was when Jorah fought Drogo's bloodriders. There his mail and bits of plate provided him decent protection even though he didn't have a helm. We know that Belwas can beat other fighers who are armed and lightly armored like himself and we know he can beat a fool who has an open top helm so he doesn't get hat hair. But against a fully armed, armored, and trained knight? I wouldn't put money on him.

[averagejoe]

...er...

I believe you mean "caveat." :smalltongue:

I agree with your point, though.

>.<

Oop. I really hate to make mistakes like that...

[Dienekes]

seconding Yoren, Strong Belwas is good, no doubt. But he shouldn't be able to do anything against full plate.

[valadil]

I forgot Garlan, he's better at Loras with a sword, and was known for practicing against 3 men and often coming out on top. He was very very good. Actually, makes you wonder why Loras gets all the praise.


Garlan is indeed slightly better with the sword, but Loras is the better jouster and that's why he's more famous.

One of the Greyjoy's also compared himself to the Kingslayer at some point in book 4. I can't remember which though.

[Winterwind]

I am surprised how many people here completely disregard ser Barristan. Well, I do understand it for when we consider historical figures, too (by all accounts of the people within that world - though not the events in the books themselves, for obvious reasons - Arthur Dayne or one of the Targaryens of yore would win that contest then), but as of book 4? He (and Jaime) are the last knights of the Kingsguard as it used to be (and Jaime is no longer a contender here), and his actions both during and after his escape proof he is still as dangerous as he ever was. As of the 4th book, he might very well be the best warrior still alive in the entire world.

[Dienekes]

I am surprised how many people here completely disregard ser Barristan. Well, I do understand it for when we consider historical figures, too (by all accounts of the people within that world - though not the events in the books themselves, for obvious reasons - Arthur Dayne or one of the Targaryens of yore would win that contest then), but as of book 4? He (and Jaime) are the last knights of the Kingsguard as it used to be (and Jaime is no longer a contender here), and his actions both during and after his escape proof he is still as dangerous as he ever was. As of the 4th book, he might very well be the best warrior still alive in the entire world.

I doubt it. The world is a rather large place, and Barristan is very old.

Barristan was great once, and is great now. Though his actual actions seem to be coming from surprise as well as skill. We do not know how he dispatched those following him (but in my mind it involves him setting a trap like the wily old bugger he is, though no proof of this can be given), he whacked a monster out of an assassins hands, through expert staffsmanship as well as the assassin didn't think of him as a threat, or even involved. Don't take this the wrong way, old Barry is a great warrior but his best days were behind him, and even in youth he wasn't considered one of the strongest members of the kingsguard.

And don't put there place on the old kingsguard make you believe they are somehow untouchable. Jaime regarded Mandon Moore as the second of the kingsguard, after himself of course. And he was not a part of the old kingsguard. Also many people could not join the old kingsguard do to political or religious reasons, the entire North for instance.

[Raiki]

If you took all the many, many great fighters of SOIAF and put them all in a massive fight to the death, who would come out the eventual champion? Assume all fighters are at the prime of their lives.


Okay...I might have to play around with the definition of "at the prime of their lives", maybe change it to "in best fighting form"...but then my vote would have to go to Berric Dondarrion, The Lightning Knight. Really, you can't kill the man. Well, assuming Thoros is around of course.

That's my two dragons anyway.

~R~

Edit: Oops...hope I'm not skirting the thread-necromancy line here...

[Megatron46]

If we're talking one on one here; Ser Arthur Dayne Sword of the Morning would, (ahem), 'open can of whoop on their asses'!
He was only defeated because Stark had help.
In a mass brawl/melee? Dunno...Jaime probably!

[pita]

If we're talking one on one here; Ser Arthur Dayne Sword of the Morning would, (ahem), 'open can of whoop on their asses'!
He was only defeated because Stark had help.
In a mass brawl/melee? Dunno...Jaime probably!

HOT PIE!!!ONESHIFT
Nobody would kill Hot Pie. Nobody could ever kill Hot Pie. He's Baby Aegon.

[Flame of Anor]

Well, Hot Pie is pretty cool...no pun intended...

...and Hodor hodor hodor hodor hodor hodor hodor...

...but I'm going to have to go with Ser Arthur Dayne.

[Dienekes]

HOT PIE!!!ONESHIFT
Nobody would kill Hot Pie. Nobody could ever kill Hot Pie. He's Baby Aegon.

Assuming that's true, I raise your no one can kill him with 1 Gregor Clegane. I think he's proven his Targ killing capabilities.

[Whammydill]

Syrio Forel is the best warrior, even against Gregor and here is why:

Syrio fights with speed, precision, and intelligence. His braavosi style I assume is based on our real-world smallsword or Itallian dueling-sabre styles. Maybe even going into some older rapier (Fabris, Capo-ferro...etc.)

Given that, Gregor's strength and reach aren't going to mean a thing because Syrio will just use timing, distance, measure against Gregor and stop-cut him to death. Simply moving out of measure of a body strike and stop-cutting to his hand, severing fingers in the process will end it for Gregor. Hard to swing a big ol'sword when you don't have fingers.

[Dienekes]

Syrio Forel is the best warrior, even against Gregor and here is why:

Syrio fights with speed, precision, and intelligence. His braavosi style I assume is based on our real-world smallsword or Itallian dueling-sabre styles. Maybe even going into some older rapier (Fabris, Capo-ferro...etc.)

Given that, Gregor's strength and reach aren't going to mean a thing because Syrio will just use timing, distance, measure against Gregor and stop-cut him to death. Simply moving out of measure of a body strike and stop-cutting to his hand, severing fingers in the process will end it for Gregor. Hard to swing a big ol'sword when you don't have fingers.

Haha, yeah... no.

I'll admit Syrio is more skilled but light blade does not beat long blade. And armor definitely beats armorless.

His sword is too light to actually make a dent against plate or poke holes into the male.

[Spiryt]

Syrio Forel is the best warrior, even against Gregor and here is why:

Syrio fights with speed, precision, and intelligence. His braavosi style I assume is based on our real-world smallsword or Itallian dueling-sabre styles. Maybe even going into some older rapier (Fabris, Capo-ferro...etc.)

Given that, Gregor's strength and reach aren't going to mean a thing because Syrio will just use timing, distance, measure against Gregor and stop-cut him to death. Simply moving out of measure of a body strike and stop-cutting to his hand, severing fingers in the process will end it for Gregor. Hard to swing a big ol'sword when you don't have fingers.

I thought I had wrote something somewhere about the type of the fight in this thread? :smallconfused:

Yeah, if it's "duel" with smallswords, minimal clothing, "gentleman - ready?" etc, then right, size doesn't matter so much, and the guy who's much more skilled in such type of fight's is going to have advantage.

If it's fight in more "battlefield" conditions, no one better touch smallsword even with 10ft pole. Especially if shield is involved.

(Let alone armor, I assume you're talking about "naked" duel)

[Whammydill]

Haha, yeah... no.

I'll admit Syrio is more skilled but light blade does not beat long blade. And armor definitely beats armorless.

His sword is too light to actually make a dent against plate or poke holes into the male.

Ahh, but the post is about who is the best warrior, not about who stays alive because he wears a tin-can.

And as for the light-blade vs long-blade it's solely in the hands of who is the better warrior. When I was living in Maryland I was into Western martial-arts and attended a seminar where arguably two of the best swordsmen in their fields were sparring. One was Christian Tobler with a longsword and the other was Thomaso Leoni using a rapier in the Fabris style. The free-style I'd say honestly was a draw. The single-time rapier was more than a match for the longsword. Another mind-boggling test they did was a full intent swing with a longsword against a proper parry with a rapier. The rapier was just fine.

Christian did a strike that began from the vom-tag guard, a zorn-hau(strike of wrath) Tom executed a parry at the forte in a tierce guard with his weapon inline against Christian. If that were taken through in a combat Tom could have put that rapier point anywhere he wanted on Chris......but I digress and appologize if I butchered spellings there, its been a while.

[Whammydill]

I thought I had wrote something somewhere about the type of the fight in this thread? :smallconfused:

Yeah, if it's "duel" with smallswords, minimal clothing, "gentleman - ready?" etc, then right, size doesn't matter so much, and the guy who's much more skilled in such type of fight's is going to have advantage.

If it's fight in more "battlefield" conditions, no one better touch smallsword even with 10ft pole. Especially if shield is involved.

(Let alone armor, I assume you're talking about "naked" duel)

Granted. The best warrior overall should be able to succeed in any scenario. Armor doesn't make someone a better warrior though.

[Dienekes]

Ahh, but the post is about who is the best warrior, not about who stays alive because he wears a tin-can.

And as for the light-blade vs long-blade it's solely in the hands of who is the better warrior. When I was living in Maryland I was into Western martial-arts and attended a seminar where arguably two of the best swordsmen in their fields were sparring. One was Christian Tobler with a longsword and the other was Thomaso Leoni using a rapier in the Fabris style. The free-style I'd say honestly was a draw. The single-time rapier was more than a match for the longsword. Another mind-boggling test they did was a full intent swing with a longsword against a proper parry with a rapier. The rapier was just fine.

Christian did a strike that began from the vom-tag guard, a zorn-hau(strike of wrath) Tom executed a parry at the forte in a tierce guard with his weapon inline against Christian. If that were taken through in a combat Tom could have put that rapier point anywhere he wanted on Chris......but I digress and appologize if I butchered spellings there, its been a while.

Ahh, while I admit this is cool and interesting. I'm referring to range. Gregor wields a 6 foot blade in 1 hand and moves it around fast. While I'll admit this seems illogical it's canon. Syrio wouldn't get in range to attack ever.

[Dienekes]

Granted. The best warrior overall should be able to succeed in any scenario. Armor doesn't make someone a better warrior though.

True, but it does breed superior fighting styles. An amazing fighter in an unoptimized style is still dead. It could be argued that the best fighter would understand these mechanics and adjust his style accordingly.

[Spiryt]

And as for the light-blade vs long-blade it's solely in the hands of who is the better warrior. When I was living in Maryland I was into Western martial-arts and attended a seminar where arguably two of the best swordsmen in their fields were sparring. One was Christian Tobler with a longsword and the other was Thomaso Leoni using a rapier in the Fabris style. The free-style I'd say honestly was a draw. The single-time rapier was more than a match for the longsword. Another mind-boggling test they did was a full intent swing with a longsword against a proper parry with a rapier. The rapier was just fine.


I've heard about few such recreations, and indeed I've heard that properly wielded single rapier against longsword result in fight where unsurprisingly, fighters matter not the weapons.

However, smallsword is not a rapier, and as far as I understand this Gregor is not very unskilled type really.


While I'll admit this seems illogical it's canon. Syrio wouldn't get in range to attack ever.

Assuming that he would want range.

If enemy was on some big empty sqaure, notoriously prancing around and using smallsword for range fighting, Gregor could just use his weapon to get close for some clinch/wrestling match.

[Dienekes]

If enemy was on some big empty sqaure, notoriously prancing around and using smallsword for range fighting, Gregor could just use his weapon to get close for some clinch/wrestling match.

Unfortunately, Gregs is even worse in wrestling matches. Remember the skull crushing?

[Spiryt]

Unfortunately, Gregs is even worse in wrestling matches. Remember the skull crushing?

I haven't read the books.

I'm just talking about fighting beacuse I like it, and checking how long I can go before someone notices. :smallwink:

[Whammydill]

True, but it does breed superior fighting styles. An amazing fighter in an unoptimized style is still dead. It could be argued that the best fighter would understand these mechanics and adjust his style accordingly.


Ironically, armor made the warrior irrelevant. Firearms and massed longbow fire (better weapons/tactics) were developed in response to armor, not superior fighting styles.

For the individual warrior the fighitng style developed to combat armor was a system of combat grappling and dagger use. Usually the rondel. If my memory serves it was called or referred to as kampfringen, dolfechten or something translating to "wrestling at the sword."

However, we are de-railing the topic.

Thus, I concede that as far as canon and the world of ASoIaF goes, Syrio would get spanked by dudes in tin-cans. :smallbiggrin:

[Spiryt]

Firearms and massed longbow fire (better weapons/tactics) were developed in response to armor, not superior fighting styles.


Eh, I don't (and fortunatelly not only, I AFAIR:smallwink:) don't think it was that simple. We can talk about systems developed in response to something in modern warfare, but not in medieval.

Massed longbow fire and firearms weren't developed as a response to anything, they just... developed. From many different reasons.
(And massed bow fire rather old inveniton)

They just have proven to be effective in certain situations, and one of them happened to be future of battlefield(Although was rather long road)

OFF TOPIC! Gaaaah....

[Whammydill]

Necessity is the mother of invention

*off-topic induced /wrist*

[warty goblin]

Ironically, armor made the warrior irrelevant. Firearms and massed longbow fire (better weapons/tactics) were developed in response to armor, not superior fighting styles.

Weird. My understanding is that the reason the longbow's use declined was that armor worked too well against it. Looking at Agincourt, the longbow fires stopped the French cavalry since horses were less well armored than the riders, and thus could be brought down. They also dispersed the rather pathetic French attempt to respond in kind with crossbowmen, who were themselves lightly armored. All three lines of French infantry heavy infantry reached the line through the arrow volleys however. There were of course casualties and I believe some loss of cohesion from the arrows, but the longbow itself did not play a particularly decisive role in that battle. The mud, and the greater ease with which lightly armored archers could move in it, combined with the folly of marching heavy infantry through a few hundred yards of recently ploughed field after a rain, did.


For the individual warrior the fighitng style developed to combat armor was a system of combat grappling and dagger use. Usually the rondel. If my memory serves it was called or referred to as kampfringen, dolfechten or something translating to "wrestling at the sword."
Either that or they were smart enough to bring a weapon really designed to be used against armor, ala a polehammer or suchlike. The great benefit of the plate armors of the fourteen hundreds seems to be that they provided sufficient protection to make a shield redundant, thus freeing the second arm of its traditionally defensive role. This in turn allowed for the greater use of massed pole arms, which indeed is what I recall seeing a lot of when I was doing research along these lines.

It is, to my mind, this shift to battles being won by massed infantry and not heavy cavalry actions that really spelled the end of heavy armor.

[Whammydill]

To say the longbow had little effect in that battle is nonsense. Granted they were able to make to the lines alive at Agincort but the were USELESS when they got there. After moving, visors down (hard to breathe), across muddy terrain in 50 to 60 pounds of armor all the while being HAMMERED by non-penetrating hits from 100+lb bows, they were combat inneffective. They were so useless in fact that the lightly armored bowmen joined the melee without much problem after they ran out of arrows.

Without the concept of massed volley fire against armored troops in these situations the battles would have been vastly different. Granted terrain was a large factor against the French, thats just a smart commander on the English side and foolish, rash, prideful knights on French side. If the arrow storms hadn't been present the footmen could have taken their time and reached the lines fresh and uninjured.

[Dienekes]

To say the longbow had little effect in that battle is nonsense. Granted they were able to make to the lines alive at Agincort but the were USELESS when they got there. After moving, visors down (hard to breathe), across muddy terrain in 50 to 60 pounds of armor all the while being HAMMERED by non-penetrating hits from 100+lb bows, they were combat inneffective. They were so useless in fact that the lightly armored bowmen joined the melee without much problem after they ran out of arrows.

Without the concept of massed volley fire against armored troops in these situations the battles would have been vastly different. Granted terrain was a large factor against the French, thats just a smart commander on the English side and foolish, rash, prideful knights on French side. If the arrow storms hadn't been present the footmen could have taken their time and reached the lines fresh and uninjured.

Actually from what I've read/been told about the battle the more expensive armors were definitely able to shrug off the arrows. However very few knights at any time had this form of armor and the cavalry lines broken before they got to the English taking heavy losses from the more unarmored cavalry they had. It can be recorded in that of the Agincort deaths most of the more wealthy nobles on the French side did not die.

This does not say that the longbow was ineffective, just that heavy armor was superior in this instance.

Though, I'm waiting for Swordguy to come and tell everyone how they're wrong and why.

[warty goblin]

To say the longbow had little effect in that battle is nonsense. Granted they were able to make to the lines alive at Agincort but the were USELESS when they got there. After moving, visors down (hard to breathe), across muddy terrain in 50 to 60 pounds of armor all the while being HAMMERED by non-penetrating hits from 100+lb bows, they were combat inneffective. They were so useless in fact that the lightly armored bowmen joined the melee without much problem after they ran out of arrows.

But they were combat inneffective due to the distance covered in crappy terrain. Being under attack certainly made it less pleasant, and as I noted led to a loss of cohesion and some casualties. These are certainly important factors, but by themselves should not have made enough difference to keep the three numerically superior waves of French from overruning the English positions

As to the bowmen joining the melee, it was precisely the mud that allowed them to do so effectively, not the scads of arrows they'd fired off earlier. Remove the mud and the archers would quite literally have been chopped to pieces, as happened pretty much every other time you slammed heavy infantry into light throughout history.

Due to the mud however, and the fact that much of the analysis I read indicates that the English almost certainly placed their archers in projecting chevrons in advance of their men at arms*, the lighter infantry enjoyed a real advantage. This formation would also serve to break the attacking line up, funnelling it between the archer chevrons into the men-at-arms.



*This seems a little illogical, since it places the more vulnerable elements, the archers, in exposed positions. However the entire point of massed archery against a close combat limited enemy is to keep them from reaching your lines to begin with. Placing the archers in forwards chevrons, with their rear flush with the men at arms line allows maximum projection of force from the archers without risk of friendly fire or the severely angled fire that would come from deploying them on the flanks as Wikipedia suggests.

Again, I'm not saying that the archery was insignificant. Simply not decisive. Remove the arrow storms, and it seems clear to me that the English would most likely have still prevailed. Perhaps not as dramatically, but they would still have held the field. Remove the mud however, and this seems unlikely to have been the case, since the archers were unable to halt even a single part of the French infantry line.


Without the concept of massed volley fire against armored troops in these situations the battles would have been vastly different. Granted terrain was a large factor against the French, thats just a smart commander on the English side and foolish, rash, prideful knights on French side. If the arrow storms hadn't been present the footmen could have taken their time and reached the lines fresh and uninjured.

The contemporary descriptions have the French sinking into mud up to their knees. Unless they spent the better part of a day or two crossing that morass, they'd be tired out. Even not tired out, that sort of handicap is going to be lethal against the much lighter archers, particularly if, as I already indicated, they could attack from the flanks against small pieces of the French line. Again, mud, not arrows.

[krabat]

khal drogo would win over all of them

[krabat]

i believe daario naharis is also better than the most people of the list.. ;)

[Vaynor]

The Red Towel: Thread necromancy.