[3.5] Spell Components

[Myou]

I don't verbal, somatic or material components.

If I removed the need for all components, other than those costing 1gp or more would there be any negative effects on the game?

[Dragon Elite]

Yes. Wizards and other casters would be more overpowered, as they can cast without taking silent or still spell.

[Myou]

Yes. Wizards and other casters would be more overpowered, as they can cast without taking silent or still spell.

They can anyway. That's what spells like Dimension Door and Contingency are for.

[Siosilvar]

Grappling would become effectively useless as a tactic for dealing with spellcasters, even before 7th level and Freedom of Movement.

Silence becomes completely useless, except in very specific circumstances.

Other than that, your casters would essentially become psions. Bad move, with the sheer power of spells compared to powers.

[Myou]

Grappling would become effectively useless as a tactic for dealing with spellcasters, even before 7th level and Freedom of Movement.

Silence becomes completely useless, except in very specific circumstances.

Other than that, your casters would essentially become psions. Bad move, with the sheer power of spells compared to powers.

But grappling still forces a concentration check no matter what spell you use. So I don't see how being able to cast spells other than the get-out-of-grapple-free Dimension Door, which is already stilled, in any way makes grappling worse.

Silence is just one spell, and I've never actually seen anyone use it. I wouldn't use silence if I had a full spell list to pick from - your silenced foe can, if I recall correcly, just move closer to automatically silence you back. And casters have good will saves anyway. It seems better as a utility spell.

[blazinghand]

Wizards and sorcerers would be able to cast in armor without worrying about it interfering with the somatic components for their spells.

When the PCs capture a wizard, they can't bind and gag him to prevent him from casting; they must keep him unconscious, and it will be nigh impossible to question him without giving him the opportunity to blast you.

Wizards and sorcerers get substantially stealthier.

Gishs get better, because armor no longer is an issue with arcane casting.

Basically, it makes Arcane casters even more dangerous than they already are.

[Myou]

Wizards and sorcerers would be able to cast in armor without worrying about it interfering with the somatic components for their spells.

When the PCs capture a wizard, they can't bind and gag him to prevent him from casting; they must keep him unconscious, and it will be nigh impossible to question him without giving him the opportunity to blast you.

Wizards and sorcerers get substantially stealthier.

Gishs get better, because armor no longer is an issue with arcane casting.

Basically, it makes Arcane casters even more dangerous than they already are.
Ahh, yeah, I hadn't thought of the armour/capturing issue.

Hmmm... how could I counter that?

[Mangles]

by ruling Armour is too bulky to cast within its confines, the metals interfere with concentration or something to that effect, As for the gagging and binding just say that a caster needs free range of his/her body in order to cast and any effect that would obstruct this would make casting harder, concentration DC vs being tied up + being gagged + not having spell components + wearing Armour if any. That way on the field silent spell just forces a concentration check, or a harder one if your using defensive casting, and same with paralysis or binding or whatever other spells there are (haven't actually played a wizard so not sure what effects normally stop magic)

[Myou]

by ruling Armour is too bulky to cast within its confines, the metals interfere with concentration or something to that effect, As for the gagging and binding just say that a caster needs free range of his/her body in order to cast and any effect that would obstruct this would make casting harder, concentration DC vs being tied up + being gagged + not having spell components + wearing Armour if any. That way on the field silent spell just forces a concentration check, or a harder one if your using defensive casting, and same with paralysis or binding or whatever other spells there are (haven't actually played a wizard so not sure what effects normally stop magic)
Hmm, some good ideas.

Being grappled is a DC 20 + spell level Concentration check, so I could just apply that to any time you're restrained - armor, being tied up, being silenced.

Perhaps being unable to speak (silence, gag, etc) would be a sperate DC 20 + spell level, but combining both physical and verbal restraints would add up to DC 40 + spell level? There are no item skill boosters in my games, so that's fairly hard check even at higher levels.

Silent/Still would just remove the need to make the check, so they'd still be just as good as before really.


What do you guys think?

[Myou]

Raise Thread!


I have no shame. >.>

[Altair_the_Vexed]

OD&D and the BECM D&D sets both said that to cast a spell, you have to make complex signs and speak clear precise words - and that was it. No other components. All spells needed some verbal incantation and hands waved in a mysterious way.

This recommendation is of course coloured by my dislike of the material component system.

[Myou]

OD&D and the BECM D&D sets both said that to cast a spell, you have to make complex signs and speak clear precise words - and that was it. No other components. All spells needed some verbal incantation and hands waved in a mysterious way.

This recommendation is of course coloured by my dislike of the material component system.

Well, what I'd really like is to take out the speaking and signing too. But the problem then is that silence wouldn't be much use.

[Godskook]

You're offering the equivalent of 9 feats, of which 6 are epic, for free? Sure, I'll take that.

It'd help if we knew why you're eliminating the components.

Eschew materials is probably the least game changing.

Auto-silent makes greater invisibility mage-snipers incredibly good.

Personally, I can only come up with 2 reasons for auto-still, one being the ability to wear heavy armor without risking ASF, and the other is the whole grappled/bound issue.

If you're adding all that, and not giving your non-casters a boost to make up for it, it is just going to contribute to the power-gap between them in the later levels.

Also, using the 'they have spells that get around it' argument doesn't work, since that's a finite resource you're essentially making infinite. Not only is a normal wizard limited in the number of dimension doors he can cast per day, it also chews through his ability to do other things, like cast his SoD spells. Saying that spending that resource is equivalent to not having to spend that resource is kinda goofy.

[Myou]

You're offering the equivalent of 9 feats, of which 6 are epic, for free? Sure, I'll take that.

It'd help if we knew why you're eliminating the components.

Eschew materials is probably the least game changing.

Auto-silent makes greater invisibility mage-snipers incredibly good.

Personally, I can only come up with 2 reasons for auto-still, one being the ability to wear heavy armor without risking ASF, and the other is the whole grappled/bound issue.

If you're adding all that, and not giving your non-casters a boost to make up for it, it is just going to contribute to the power-gap between them in the later levels.

Also, using the 'they have spells that get around it' argument doesn't work, since that's a finite resource you're essentially making infinite. Not only is a normal wizard limited in the number of dimension doors he can cast per day, it also chews through his ability to do other things, like cast his SoD spells. Saying that spending that resource is equivalent to not having to spend that resource is kinda goofy.

I don't actually want to make them more powerful at all, I just don't like the fluff of material, somatic or verbal components.

But I'm not sure how to take them out without, as you say, giving casters free stuff.

[Cedrass]

Me thinks what you actually want is Psionics.

It's exactly what you are trying to do: magic without Verbal/Somatic/Material components.

[Godskook]

I don't actually want to make them more powerful at all, I just don't like the fluff of material, somatic or verbal components.

Ok, you don't like the fluff. Why? Would convincing you that they make sense be a better endeavor be useful?

Off the top of my head, watch Full Metal Alchemist, you'll enjoy yourself, and see 'spellcasting' that uses non-expensive material components and somatic components. Bleach shows good use of verbal components in their 'spells'(called kidou).

If you think of D&D spellcasting as something akin to kidou(from bleach), but with an alchemical fluff added(from FMA), than it makes pretty good sense, as far as a non-realistic thing *can* make sense.

[Bogardan_Mage]

I don't actually want to make them more powerful at all, I just don't like the fluff of material, somatic or verbal components.

But I'm not sure how to take them out without, as you say, giving casters free stuff.
Can't you just ignore the fluff and leave the mechanic intact? Here's a rough layout of the mechnics sans fluff:

If a spell has a cheap Material component, you need a spell components pouch or Eschew Materials to cast it.
If a spell has a Somatic component, you need to be able to move or apply Still Spell to it to cast it.
If a spell has a Verbal component, you need to be able to speak or apply Silent Spell to it to cast it.

You, as the DM, don't actually have to describe the movements or incantations or even taking a pinch of bat guano out of one's spell component pouch. Ignore the fluff, just say "These are the conditions under which you can cast the spell". Because that's probably what you're going to end up doing anyway if you remove the components but try to replace them with something to keep the balance.

[Myou]

Ok, you don't like the fluff. Why? Would convincing you that they make sense be a better endeavor be useful?

Off the top of my head, watch Full Metal Alchemist, you'll enjoy yourself, and see 'spellcasting' that uses non-expensive material components and somatic components. Bleach shows good use of verbal components in their 'spells'(called kidou).

If you think of D&D spellcasting as something akin to kidou(from bleach), but with an alchemical fluff added(from FMA), than it makes pretty good sense, as far as a non-realistic thing *can* make sense.

About FMA and Bleach, I prefer the manga. :smallamused:

But that is a good idea, to have the caster name the spell to cast it. I'll use that. :3

Now I just have to get rogues to yell 'Sneak Attack, Bitch!'.



Can't you just ignore the fluff and leave the mechanic intact? Here's a rough layout of the mechnics sans fluff:

If a spell has a cheap Material component, you need a spell components pouch or Eschew Materials to cast it.
If a spell has a Somatic component, you need to be able to move or apply Still Spell to it to cast it.
If a spell has a Verbal component, you need to be able to speak or apply Silent Spell to it to cast it.

You, as the DM, don't actually have to describe the movements or incantations or even taking a pinch of bat guano out of one's spell component pouch. Ignore the fluff, just say "These are the conditions under which you can cast the spell". Because that's probably what you're going to end up doing anyway if you remove the components but try to replace them with something to keep the balance.

Hmmm, I think you've given me an idea or two. :3


So, here's what I'm considering now;

Spells have no material components unless they cost 1gp or more (this never actually limited casting anyway).

Spells must be named to cast them easily, so they can't be cast under Silence without a concentration check of DC 20+2*level.

Being grappled or otherwise resitricted makes it harder to focus, so that's another DC 20+2*level check.

If you're grappled and silenced, that's DC 40+2*level.

Silent/Still take out the need, letting you forgo the checks.

[Ashtagon]

Can't you just ignore the fluff and leave the mechanic intact? Here's a rough layout of the mechnics sans fluff:

If a spell has a cheap Material component, you need a spell components pouch or Eschew Materials to cast it.
If a spell has a Somatic component, you need to be able to move or apply Still Spell to it to cast it.
If a spell has a Verbal component, you need to be able to speak or apply Silent Spell to it to cast it.

You, as the DM, don't actually have to describe the movements or incantations or even taking a pinch of bat guano out of one's spell component pouch. Ignore the fluff, just say "These are the conditions under which you can cast the spell". Because that's probably what you're going to end up doing anyway if you remove the components but try to replace them with something to keep the balance.

This is more or less exactly what I've done. The "spell component pouch" has been renamed "magic wand", but essentially functions in exactly the same way.

basic magic wand - costs 5 gp (just like a spell component pouch), functions as a spell component pouch. technically, you need a hand free to use this (which holds the wand), thus adding a required somatic component to any spell that used to require a spell component pouch. I'm not sure if any RAW spells have M component without S components anyway.

mastercraft staff - a staff that has been made as a mastercraft weapon can, in addition to its usual mastercraft properties, be used instead of a basic magic wand.

magic wands and magic staffs - In addition to their properties as magic items, these can be used instead of a spell component pouch.

[Godskook]

Sounds like you're really not against the mechanics at all, so why bother fixing them if they aren't broke?


Spells have no material components unless they cost 1gp or more (this never actually limited casting anyway).

I'm sure it does, sometimes, just like divine focuses (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html) sometimes come up too. Its a point of vulnerability, and something that, sans a feat, should require protecting somehow.


Spells must be named to cast them easily, so they can't be cast under Silence without a concentration check of DC 20+2*level.

Being grappled or otherwise resitricted makes it harder to focus, so that's another DC 20+2*level check.

If you're grappled and silenced, that's DC 40+2*level.

Silent/Still take out the need, letting you forgo the checks.

Again, the mechanics already work, why change mechanics for fluff reasons when you can just change your understanding of the fluff. You're not even giving fluff reasons for your mechanical changes.

Besides, performing a somatic components should be a strength check or grapple check(both would naturally screw the caster).

Also, when you say level, do you mean 'spell level' or 'class level'? Cause a DC 20 + 2*(Spell level) concentration check would be abominably easy for a L20 character. I mean, they're probably working between a +5 or +7 con modifier easy by then(counting buffs and items), and 23 ranks by default, for +28-30 before any concentration related items or feats(such as the one that lets them take 10 on concentration checks). That's against a DC 38(L9 spells). They'll miss that almost never.

Finally, personally, I like fluffing my own abilities a little. Its nice to know a rough idea what it should look like and the mechanical rules about it, but I like taking some artistic liberties with the exact descriptions. The current system doesn't tie down much of 'what' somatic components are, and I like that, since it allows me a chance to give my own interpretation as to what is actually happening. Same goes for verbal components.

[Myou]

Hmmm, maybe I should just refluff, yeah. :smallsmile: