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Elfin
2009-08-22, 02:59 PM
Since the dawn of D&D, geeks cloistered in windowless basements have sought to stat out the characters in The Lord of the Rings and Tolkien's other works.
And now, I'm starting the millionth or so such discussion.
How would you stat out the main heroes in Middle-earth (some or all of their classes, levels, feats, etc.)? Specifically, in this thread I'm looking for the Fellowship, but any characters would do.
Oh, and what levels would you peg the Fellowship's contents at before and after the events in The Lord of the Rings?

My thoughts:
*Note-All wizards and sorcerers use either the Good or Evil Middle-earth spell lists (bottom of page), depending on their alignment

The Fellowship
Aragorn-Ranger/maybe a couple levels of Fighter/maybe Paladin
Boromir-Fighter
Frodo-Commoner or Expert/Rogue
Gandalf-10-20 outsider HD/Wizard or Sorcerer (Divine Rank 0)
Gimli-Fighter/Dwarven Defender
Legolas-Scout/Deepwood Sniper
Merry-Commoner/Rogue/Maybe a level of Fighter
Pippin-Commoner/Rogue/Maybe a level of Fighter
Sam-Commoner/Rogue/Fighter

Everyone in the Silmarillion is basically either a Paladin, Ranger, Fighter, Sorcerer, Rogue, or some combination thereof.

The Bad Guys
Sauron-20-30 Outsider HD/Sorcerer (Divine Rank 5)
The Witch-King-10HD Advanced Wraith/Sorcerer/Fighter
The (other 8) Ringwraiths-10HD advanced Wraiths/ Sorcerers and Fighters


Middle-earth Good Magic

0-Resistance, Detect Poison, Flare, Mending, Guidance, Virtue, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Arcane Mark, Prestidigitation, Cure Minor Wounds

1-Cure Light Wounds, Obscuring Mist, Shield, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Protection from Evil, Sleep, Bless, Identify, True Strike, Ventriloquism, Cause Fear, Sanctuary, Divine Favor, Command, Doom, Shield of Faith, Remove Fear

2-Aid, Align Weapon, Consecrate, Cure Moderate Wounds, Heroism, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Eagle's Splendor, Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom, Delay Poison, Zone of Truth, Shield Other, Status, Spiritual Weapon, Fog Cloud, Gust of Wind, Detect Thoughts, Protection from Arrows, Knock, Continual Flame, Pyrotechnics

3-Sleet Storm, Keen Edge, Greater Magic Weapon, Daylight, Arcane Sight, Dispel Magic, Cure Serious Wounds, Magic Circle Against Evil, Prayer, Searing Light, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Neutralize Poison

4-Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Solid Fog, Detect Scrying, Cure Critical Wounds, Divination, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Divine Power, Tongues, Control Water

5-Break Enchantment, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Commune, Spell Resistance, True Seeing, Hallow, Control Winds, Dream

6-Globe of Invulnerability, Repulsion, Greater Dispel Magic, Legend Lore, Greater Heroism, Mass Bear's Endurance, Mass Bull's Strength, Mass Cat's Grace, Mass Eagle's Splendor, Mass Fox's Cunning, Mass Owl's Wisdom, Contingency, Find the Path, Mass Cure Moderate Wounds

7-Control Weather, Greater Restoration, Holy Word, Mass Cure Serious Wounds, Vision, Heal

8-Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience, Protection from Spells, Mass Cure Critical Wounds, Shield of Law, Holy Aura, Sunburst

9-Miracle, Foresight, Storm of Vengeance

Note: only with the consent of the Valar can Istari use 9th-level spells.

Middle-earth Evil Magic

0-Resistance, Touch of Fatigue, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Daze, Ghost Sound, Inflict Minor Wounds

1-Doom, Protection from Good, Inflict Light Wounds, Cause Fear, Curse Water, Command, Bane, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Chill Touch, Shield, True Strike

2-Darkness, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Eagle's Splendor, Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom, Knock, Blindness/Deafness, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Shatter, Desecrate, Death Knell, Hold Person, Silence, Fog Cloud

3-Inflict Serious Wounds, Bestow Curse, Deeper Darkness, Magic Circle Against Good, Contagion, Dispel Magic, Keen Edge, Greater Magic Weapon, Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud, Vampiric Touch, Slow, Ray of Exhaustion, Tongues, Lightning Bolt

4-Unholy Blight, Death Ward, Poison, Inflict Critical Wounds, Fear, Enervation, Contagion, Crushing Despair, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability

5-Dispel Good, Slay Living, Mass Inflict Light Wounds, Unhallow, Greater Command

6-Harm, Mass Inflict Moderate Wounds, Antilife Shell, Circle of Death, Shadow Walk

7-Destruction, Blasphemy, Mass Inflict Serious Wounds

8-Unholy Aura, Create Greater Undead (Wraiths and Shadows only), Mass Inflict Critical Wounds, Horrid Wilting

9-Wail of the Banshee, Power Word Kill, Soul Bind, Energy Drain, Storm of Vengeance

quick_comment
2009-08-22, 03:02 PM
Gandalf and Sauron both have Divine Rank 0 or 1.

Elfin
2009-08-22, 03:05 PM
Right, changing that.
I think I'm going to give Sauron a Divine Rank of 5.

awa
2009-08-22, 03:45 PM
Gandalf the Grey wasn't all that tough he couldn't fly and had no reliable magic attack. He nearly died when a bunch of goblin lit the tree he was hiding in on fire becuase he couldn't do anything to stop them or escape after they done it. He couldn't even be a level 5 wizard much less 20. he fights with a magic sword more then he does with magic

Innis Cabal
2009-08-22, 03:47 PM
You know they do have stats. In their own d20 based game?

Nerd-o-rama
2009-08-22, 04:27 PM
I feel a great disturbance in the force. As if millions of nerds were about to descend on this thread and turn it into a ragefest.

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-22, 04:29 PM
I feel a great disturbance in the force. As if millions of nerds were about to descend on this thread and turn it into a ragefest.

A ragefest? So what, stat them all out as barbarians or something? Gandalf is a Frenzied Berserker?

Tengu_temp
2009-08-22, 04:29 PM
How would you stat out the main heroes in Middle-earth (some or all of their classes, levels, feats, etc.)?

I wouldn't. DND and LotR are incompatible on every but the most basic of levels, and even trying to stat characters from the latter in the former will, at best, give very unprecise results.


I feel a great disturbance in the force. As if millions of nerds were about to descend on this thread and turn it into a ragefest.

My name is legion.

Coidzor
2009-08-22, 04:39 PM
Too much of a headache, really.

Elfin
2009-08-22, 04:48 PM
Gandalf the Grey wasn't all that tough he couldn't fly and had no reliable magic attack. He nearly died when a bunch of goblin lit the tree he was hiding in on fire becuase he couldn't do anything to stop them or escape after they done it. He couldn't even be a level 5 wizard much less 20. he fights with a magic sword more then he does with magic

True...in The Hobbit, Gandalf seems rather weak. However, when compared to the Gandalf in The Lord of the Rings, who battles the Nazgul, fights a pack of wargs, and slays a Balrog single-handedly, the images don't match up.

Kobold-Bard
2009-08-22, 04:48 PM
Middle Earth is seriously low level, I don't think anyone in the fellowship is above level 5.

Aragorn - Ranger/Fighter (he doesn't use one of the combat styles, but can track, so maybe more fighter than Ranger)

Gandalf the Grey - Some sort of Wizard + either a level of Fighter or martial weapon feat.

Gandalf the White - Brought back with Paladin levels

Boromir - Straight Fighter.

Legolas - Ranger, and lots of it.

Gimli - Fighter/Barbarian of course.

Merry + Pippin - Rogue/Fighter

Sam - Rogue with Craft (Stew) and Profession (Gardener) ranks.

Frodo - Rogue with an obscene Will Save to resist the Ring all that time.


Of course this is all completely pointless, but I coudn't help myself.

Edit: Anything I know outside the LotR trilogy is limited to Wikipedia skimming, so I apologise if this makes no sense at all.

AslanCross
2009-08-22, 05:37 PM
Is it wrong that I want to stat out Fingolfin as a Gestalt Fighter//Warblade 20/Eternal Blade 10? It's the only way he can have Time Stands Still (At The Iron Hill) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWDR_ncgqwg) as his theme song.

Feanor would probably be a Fighter/Artificer.

Starbuck_II
2009-08-22, 05:41 PM
Gandalf the Grey wasn't all that tough he couldn't fly and had no reliable magic attack. He nearly died when a bunch of goblin lit the tree he was hiding in on fire becuase he couldn't do anything to stop them or escape after they done it. He couldn't even be a level 5 wizard much less 20. he fights with a magic sword more then he does with magic

Grey used Lightning bolt, summoned multiple Giant Owls, and shot orbs of fire from his ring in the prequel.

Just because he didn't use anything for Frodo: mayhap he was trying not to let Sauron know his location so he couldn't use the big guns?
Yes, that was his plan.

Milskidasith
2009-08-22, 05:45 PM
So he had... a level three spell? That's level 5. Generally, most fantasy worlds never have anything stronger than level 5~7, 10 if they are really high powered.

Salt_Crow
2009-08-22, 05:49 PM
True...in The Hobbit, Gandalf seems rather weak. However, when compared to the Gandalf in The Lord of the Rings, who battles the Nazgul, fights a pack of wargs, and slays a Balrog single-handedly, the images don't match up.

He was an NPC played by a DM who wanted to give the scene a much more dramatic air than it would've otherwise. The PC (...bilbo?) got to role-play to his heart's content, so I'd say that's just a case of DM intervention.

No-one likes to have a DMPC ruin a good moment I guess ;)

By the way, many of the 'casts' in the Hobbit would be NPC-classed as their power levels are much, much lower than it is w/ LotR. Except the guy who kills a dragon with a crit. RIP Smaug, you were a smug dragon if I knew one.

Elfin
2009-08-22, 05:54 PM
Nah, the Black Arrow was just a Slaying Arrow, and Smaug rolled a 1 on his save.
Bard was probably a low-level fighter, as was Thorin. I'd say the rest of the dwarves were low-level experts and warriors.

Starbuck_II
2009-08-22, 07:09 PM
Really, the Ages work backwards in power:
1st Age was Epic.
2nd Age was High Level (11-20th)
3rd Age was Low to Meduim (1-10)

In the 1st age, human guy kills a god.

Elfin
2009-08-22, 07:22 PM
I agree; the power of heroes definitely went downhill as history progressed.

ColdSepp
2009-08-22, 08:09 PM
Is it wrong that I want to stat out Fingolfin as a Gestalt Fighter//Warblade 20/Eternal Blade 10? It's the only way he can have Time Stands Still (At The Iron Hill) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWDR_ncgqwg) as his theme song.

I awesome cause it's true.

vrellum
2009-08-22, 08:18 PM
DnD models worlds in a completely unrealistic way because of Hit points.

Although think about this. Aragorn fights and kills a lot of Orcs and Oruk Hai (sp?) without magic armor or other magical protections. He's wearing chainmail and even with a good dex has an AC of < 20. Average Orc, even if they are only a level 1 warrior, is likely to have an AB of + 5, therefore Aragorn would get hit a lot. He never seemed to take damage, indicating that he had a lot of hitpoints. Or that he had improved combat expertise and was able to boost his AC to such a high level that the Orcs couldn't hit him, but his AB was still high enough to easily hit them. Either way he is pretty high level. Also he identified the footprints of Merry and Pippin before they went into the forest. That requires a skill check in the range of 40. So any way you want to cut it, he is high level. The other members of the fellowship appeared to be in the same ball park as him, so they were also high level.

Sure Boromir was killed by a guy with a long bow (after Boromir killed a large number of Orcs and by DnD rules would have taken a lot of damage). However, a crit from a longbow (the wielder certainly seemed to be higher level than the average Oruk Hai):
3X(4.5 + 5 (str) + 2 (specialization) + 4 (ranger favored enemy human (not completely unreasonable) = 47. And he was hit 3? times before he died. Again, good evidence the members of the Fellowship (hobbits excepted) were high level.


Gandalf was expressly forbidden from playing a large role in the battle against Sauron. Therefore it is difficult to judge just how powerful he is. However, he did beat a Balrog in one-on-one combat.

JonestheSpy
2009-08-22, 08:23 PM
Gandalf the Grey wasn't all that tough he couldn't fly and had no reliable magic attack. He nearly died when a bunch of goblin lit the tree he was hiding in on fire becuase he couldn't do anything to stop them or escape after they done it. He couldn't even be a level 5 wizard much less 20. he fights with a magic sword more then he does with magic

And this is why trying to adapt epic literature to ggaming mechanics just doesn't work out...

Really, most of the magic in LoTR is pretty subtle - it involves willpower, domination, subtle (and not so) influencing of emotions and attitudes, that sort of thing - especially the more powerful sort. Saying the characters must be low-level because they don't use a bunch of Vancian ultra-powerful magic is just trying to compare apples to avocados.

Zevox
2009-08-22, 08:30 PM
I wouldn't bother for anyone with magic, personally. D&D and LotR are mostly compatible when it comes to physical combat characters, but with magic, they're utterly impossible to reconcile. D&D is all about making magic into a science and showing off the most powerful effects it can cause, whereas Tolkien always tried to keep his magic on the sidelines and make it seem, well, magical, every time even the least manifestation of it was shown. And the whole way D&D codifies what few magic spells its sorcerers know and has wizards need to study and memorize their spells just does not work with Tolkien's conception of magic at all. All of which leads to silly things like people insisting that Arda is a low-level world, as we've already seen in this thread, simply because Tolkien didn't write about his characters wielding flashy, destructive magic, even though Sauron, Gandalf, and Saruman were all nothing less than gods.

For physical characters, Aragorn would obviously be a Ranger, as would Legolas, and Gimli and Boromir would be Fighters (possibly with a level or two of Aristocrat for Boromir, though probably not, since he wasn't big into that aspect of his life). The Hobbits would likely start as Experts or Commoners, and pick up levels in Warrior or Fighter (or maybe Rogue, at least for Sam and Frodo) as they went along. Most others we see, such as Theoden and his children, would be a combination of Aristocrat and Fighter. Faramir would probably be an Aristocrat/Ranger.

I would advise against giving anyone from LotR Paladin levels. Much like it's concept of magic, the D&D concept of a Paladin just does not work with LotR.

Zevox

Tyndmyr
2009-08-22, 09:11 PM
Saying the characters must be low-level because they don't use a bunch of Vancian ultra-powerful magic is just trying to compare apples to avocados.

Right, you just can't make that comparison. Mainly because Apples totally wtfpwn avocados.

AslanCross
2009-08-22, 10:05 PM
How would you guys stat out Galadriel? I always saw her as a very high-level gestalt cleric//wizard.

(I prefer statting the elves who've been around since the First Age since everyone pretty much agrees that they were epic or at least had very high levels.)

ken-do-nim
2009-08-22, 10:24 PM
I know this is a 3.5 thread, but I just thought I'd give some perspective from the original edition of the game, which took more of this into account. The whole affair is intended for the level 10 and under range.

The Nazgul are spectres, says so right in the spectre monster description.

The big bad balrog is a 10 hit die monster, which is actually pretty high for OD&D.

Aragorn is a ranger of at least 9th level, because it is at 9th level that rangers get the ability to use scrying devices and we know that Aragorn was able to use the palantir. I'm going to say 10th level, because Aragorn used his knowledge of herbs to slow Frodo's poison, and I think the game mechanic for that was to give rangers cleric spells, and slow poison is a 2nd level cleric spell which rangers gain at 10th. Definitely arguable though.

All the LOTR hobbits are just fighters, ahem fighting-men, and since OD&D caps halflings at 4th level fighting man, that's probably what they are.

Bilbo was a halfling thief, I have no clue what level, but probably not as high as 10 because he never had the ability to read magical writing afaik.

FlawedParadigm
2009-08-22, 11:00 PM
Bilbo was a halfling thief, I have no clue what level, but probably not as high as 10 because he never had the ability to read magical writing afaik.

Speak 'friend', and enter...

Unless I'm misremembering, that was Bilbo's handiwork.

Elfin
2009-08-22, 11:06 PM
No, that was Gandalf at the Doors of Durin.

Zevox
2009-08-22, 11:08 PM
Speak 'friend', and enter...

Unless I'm misremembering, that was Bilbo's handiwork.
You're misremembering. On multiple accounts, actually. Bilbo was the titular character of "The Hobbit," not an active character in LotR, and the doors of Moria incident to which you refer was in LotR. And it was only in the movies that one of the Hobbits solved that problem - in the novels, Gandalf did.

Zevox

AslanCross
2009-08-22, 11:16 PM
What about the Valar? The idea of Divine Ranks (for the Ainur) and an Overdeity (Iluvatar) works well with Tolkien's cosmology.

Since Fingolfin was actually able to hurt Morgoth, it wouldn't be a stretch to stat him out.

Morgoth would probably be similar to Bane as described in Forgotten Realms's Faiths and Pantheons: Fighter 15/Blackguard 10/Cleric 20 (of himself). The Rogue levels Bane has don't really fit Morgoth, though.

Elfin
2009-08-22, 11:22 PM
I like that...Fingolfin as a Warblade 20/ Eternal Blade 10, and Morgoth as a Fighter15/Blackguard10/Cleric20...hmm...
I've got to stat out the two of them now. Or AslanCross, would you do one?

AslanCross
2009-08-23, 12:23 AM
I'll take care of Fingolfin. This is going to be fun.

EDIT: Any restrictions on stat rolling/point buy?

Elfin
2009-08-23, 12:35 AM
Cool. We'll give 70 point buy and max hp for every level.

Elfin
2009-08-23, 12:22 PM
This (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=148790) is as far as I've gotten with Morgoth. He's terribly, terribly unoptomized, but still packs a punch.
His AC shouldn't be any problem, though, so if Fingolfin wins initiative (which is almost assured) he should have a pretty easy time dealing some serious damage.