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Akisa
2009-08-22, 07:14 PM
Is it possible to worship dead goddess such as Tyche or Mycrul and still get cleric spells. Also for Archvist do I have to follow a specific god?

Wings of Peace
2009-08-22, 07:20 PM
I think it'd depend alot on the campaign. Generic DnD in theory you could worship the idea of your god and still gain spells. Forgotten Realms I don't think so but it's all how you rp it really. As an Archivist you don't need a god but you can benefit having one. For example it's a debated issue but in dragon magic there is a rule that some interpret as allowing Archivists to become initiates of Mystra.

HamHam
2009-08-22, 07:23 PM
It's called being a Binder. :smalltongue:

arguskos
2009-08-22, 07:25 PM
Yes, it is completely and easily possible. There's a feat in Lost Empires of Faerun called Servant of the Fallen (or something like that) which lets you select a dead god and worship them to get spells.

As for Archivist, it says nothing about following any deity, though in some settings (like FR), you should anyways.

PId6
2009-08-22, 07:33 PM
Well considering in default D&D, you can worship causes or ideals and still gain spells, worshiping dead gods shouldn't be a problem. You can even worship yourself if you want. :smallbiggrin:

In FR, though, not worshiping a god has Bad Bad consequences, so you'll probably want a patron deity either way. However, an archivist doesn't strictly get spells from any deity, so you don't have to align yourself with that deity to worship them.

DragoonWraith
2009-08-22, 07:36 PM
One of the most flavorful options for this (though I'm not sure how well it works with Archivist) is a slightly reflavored Ur-Priest (basically remove the stipulation that the Ur-Priesting is inherently evil, and so your character is stealing spells while working to bring back his own god, or some such). For all it is potentially broken, the Ur-Priest has excellent flavor.

Random NPC
2009-08-22, 07:46 PM
In FR, though, not worshiping a god has Bad Bad consequences, so you'll probably want a patron deity either way.

which is another why Eberron is awesome. Atheists Clerics FTW

PId6
2009-08-22, 07:53 PM
One of the most flavorful options for this (though I'm not sure how well it works with Archivist) is a slightly reflavored Ur-Priest (basically remove the stipulation that the Ur-Priesting is inherently evil, and so your character is stealing spells while working to bring back his own god, or some such). For all it is potentially broken, the Ur-Priest has excellent flavor.
A lot of the broken aspects of the Ur-Priest can easily be fixed by requiring it be taken at level 9 or later, thus preventing you from getting 9th level spells before 17th level. I like Ur-Priest because it makes a lot of Theurge-types (like Eldritch Disciple) actually workable. And yeah, they do seem very similar to Archivists, flavor-wise, just taken to a deeper extreme.

quick_comment
2009-08-22, 08:16 PM
Yeah, you can worship dead gods. The god-essence of Orcus still exists as the Tenebrous vestige, and it grants spells.

AslanCross
2009-08-22, 09:43 PM
Forgotten Realms has been covered. In Eberron you get spells from worshipping just about anything---the traditional gods, the Silver Flame, the Lord of Blades (who is just a high-level Warforged), yourself (Blood of Vol), or your left toenail.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-22, 10:41 PM
A lot of the broken aspects of the Ur-Priest can easily be fixed by requiring it be taken at level 9 or later, thus preventing you from getting 9th level spells before 17th level. I like Ur-Priest because it makes a lot of Theurge-types (like Eldritch Disciple) actually workable. And yeah, they do seem very similar to Archivists, flavor-wise, just taken to a deeper extreme.Or just don't allow people to start the game with levels in the class. Comparing the Ur-Priest's progression to a normal Cleric's isn't bad, the issue is when people can avoid the weaker levels of the class.

Milskidasith
2009-08-22, 10:53 PM
Well Druids get spells just for worshipping Nature, and they are classified as Divine... so why limit clerics?

EDIT: Huh, there was a post above mine about clerics of an ideal being silly; where did that go?

ericgrau
2009-08-22, 11:20 PM
I'm pretty sure I remember campaigns where a god(dess) dies and then all his/her followers lose all their spells.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-22, 11:27 PM
I'm pretty sure I remember campaigns where a god(dess) dies and then all his/her followers lose all their spells.In the (IIRC) 2e-3.x transition, some Clerics of Lolth were described as losing the ability to gain new spells while she was out of comission, but some of them kept spells prepared for months afterwards. But that's FR, where the gods are a lot closer than many settings and even there, I seem to remember a couple of churches of dead gods.

Altima
2009-08-22, 11:40 PM
In (non-4e) FR, dead gods do grant spells. Actual dead gods, like Bhaal.

However, it's just as likely another deity is impersonating said god and gaining power through the worship. An example would be Shar (Goddess of Night) impersonating Ibrandul (God of Caverns, worshipped mostly by goblinoids) after she slayed him during the Time of Troubles.

When Lolth went silent, she wasn't dead, so there was still divine power to be granted, but she wasn't renewing new spells, for obvious reasons for anyone reading that series.

Really, the only deity I think is off-limits to worshipping is *minor spoilers for Sacrifice of the Widow series*


Kiaransalee, since High Magic--the FR version of creation magick that's more powerful than, well, most deities--was used to erase her name from existance, reducing her to a corpse floating in the astral plane. She *could*, just as Bhaal or Moander can, but no one knows her name to ask.

*EDIT*

Also, Tyche isn't a dead deity. She split into two goddesses, I believe. Beshaba and Tymora.

hamishspence
2009-08-23, 03:30 AM
She was blasted to death by Selune, who saw she'd been corrupted by Moander the Darbringer, and Beshaba and Tymora rose from her corpse.

arguskos
2009-08-23, 03:34 AM
She was blasted to death by Selune, who saw she'd been corrupted by Moander the Darbringer, and Beshaba and Tymora rose from her corpse.
Eh, well, to be totally technical, Tyche split into Beshaba and Tymora, and she never really *died* just divided into Good and Bad luck. Theoretically, if those two godesses recombined, Tyche would be reborn, though that never really happens. :smallwink: Anyways, this is some seriously minor quibbling on my part. Hope you don't mind. :smallwink:

Myou
2009-08-23, 04:10 AM
You need to ask your DM.

In my setting... (Stay out Nic.)



There were never any gods to begin with, but the first extraplanar explorers were so horrified when they discovered this that they sealed the material plane off from the rest of the universe to prevent society breaking down upon discovering that all their religions were wrong.

Now, 100,000 years later, no-one knows why extraplanar travel doesn't work any more - you can summon and call into the material plane, but nothing can come on its own, and no-one can leave. Religions have declined, but are still widespread, with two thirds of the population following one.

Divine magic/spells in my setting come entirely from collective belief/will, so the fact there are no actual gods doesn't stop the clerics from getting spells.

hamishspence
2009-08-23, 05:07 AM
Tymora's Luck has this as a plotline, the recombination of Tyche. The heroes manage to thwart it, feeling it is wrong to join two deities against their will.

Faiths and Pantheons, and FRCS, and Tymora's Luck, refer to Tyche as a rotted corpse, or rotted husk. Its not just a case of the deity spitting like an amoeba- Tyche was dying.

Amiel
2009-08-23, 05:12 AM
The feat, Servant of the Fallen, from Lost Empires of Faerun allows you to receive cleric spells normally. It also include a nice little bonus to any die roll.
You can worship the following ancient deities:
Amaunator, Auppensar, Bhaal, Gilgeam, Ibrandul, Leira, Moander, Myrkul, Ramman and Tchazzar.

Lord Loss
2009-08-23, 07:24 AM
In Elder Evils, it sais that you can worship a concept, and receive spells. it also sais that, therefore, even though Setuous is dead, his Clerics get their spells.

Jergmo
2009-08-23, 10:38 AM
The feat, Servant of the Fallen, from Lost Empires of Faerun allows you to receive cleric spells normally. It also include a nice little bonus to any die roll.
You can worship the following ancient deities:
Amaunator, Auppensar, Bhaal, Gilgeam, Ibrandul, Leira, Moander, Myrkul, Ramman and Tchazzar.

Yeah, in Baldur's Gate, Amaunator still has some power left over, and, naturally, Bhaal (his divine realm is still open for business), and in Icewind Dale, there are a couple of puny liches that are clerics of Myrkul. (Actually, I think there was a cleric of Myrkul in Icewind Dale II, and that takes place quite some time after the original, if I remember right.)

One thing I don't understand is, don't the deities gain power from having worshippers in FR as well, and deities can die because they don't have any? Shouldn't dead gods return if you worship them?