(3.5) Favorite bow enchantment package?

[Coidzor]

So I was wondering what the proscribed bow bundles and the steps to assemble them are for the various archer builds around the place while I was thinking about the swift-hunter mystic ranger I've been thinking about building.

What sort of enchantments and what order would you put 'em on, basically.

[Olo Demonsbane]

My current swift hunter mystic ranger has a +X Splitting (+3) Magebane (+1)Bow. If you can get a little bit higher enchantment, I reccomend a +X Splitting (+3) Wounding (+2) Bow.

Those, IMO, are the three best bow enchantments.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

My current swift hunter mystic ranger has a +X Splitting (+3) Magebane (+1)Bow. If you can get a little bit higher enchantment, I reccomend a +X Splitting (+3) Wounding (+2) Bow.

Those, IMO, are the three best bow enchantments.

+1 to splitting (Champions of Ruin). Wounding is great if you're actually facing creatures with Con scores. I'm a big fan of Collision (+2 property, MiC). Adds more damage to each hit. With splitting, you're getting double the return.

[Siosilvar]

Collision's also in the XPH and SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#collision).

[Seffbasilisk]

While I cannot deny the power behind splitting, Holy, Unholy, Magebane, and the like...

My favorite bow is still a +1 Distance Seeking Bloodseeking bow, with choice of Flaming, Explosive, or specific Bane/Slaying arrows.

You put that on a Composite Longbow rigged for your strength, and loose an arrow...it's just an attack roll. No miss chances, no bonuses from cover or invisibility...your shot is getting through.

[Coidzor]

What're the sources on Explosive and Bloodseeking, btw?

...and that collision enchantment seems really tasty... too bad it's a psionic enhancement.

[Douglas]

too bad it's a psionic enhancement.
Which really means precisely nothing. Even by original RAW all that means is it takes a different feat to make, and even that difference can be removed with a variant rule in MIC, I think. And even without that, it was reprinted as a magical enhancement in the MIC. So forget the psionic thing, it really truly doesn't matter.

[sofawall]

The enchantment is not necessarily psionic. It just happens to be in a psionic book. You can refluff it with ease.

[Coidzor]

Which really means precisely nothing. Even by original RAW all that means is it takes a different feat to make, and even that difference can be removed with a variant rule in MIC, I think. And even without that, it was reprinted as a magical enhancement in the MIC. So forget the psionic thing, it really truly doesn't matter.

oo, that's good.

As far as I knew, it was sometimes fuzzy whether psionics would exist between DMs/worlds. <_< >_> As evidenced by Redcloak's annoyance of having to check if they were using psionics in OotS.

[Seffbasilisk]

Blood Seeking is from Complete Warrior, page 134 and is a +1
Explosive is also Complete Warrior. +1 for melee, +3 for ranged, same page apparently.

[Curmudgeon]

By the time you can afford splitting most enemies will be able to put up Wind Wall. So what you really need is a great crossbow with splitting and sizing, and then use Enlarge Person to become Large size. When you make the great crossbow be that size as well and use appropriate Large bolts they'll qualify as siege engine-size projectiles, which punch right through Wind Wall.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

By the time you can afford splitting most enemies will be able to put up Wind Wall. So what you really need is a great crossbow with splitting and sizing, and then use Enlarge Person to become Large size. When you make the great crossbow be that size as well and use appropriate Large bolts they'll qualify as siege engine-size projectiles, which punch right through Wind Wall.No, they don't. They count as very big crossbow bolts. A Tibbit wielding a Tiny Ballista will go through a Wind Wall, a Giant-Sized Wu Jen wielding a Monkey Gripped Great Crossbow won't. No, it doesn't make sense, but crossbows/= siege weapons.

[Darrin]

No, it doesn't make sense, but crossbows/= siege weapons.

Hah. If only that were true. From the DMG, p. 100:

"A ballista is essentially a Huge heavy crossbow fixed in place. Its size makes it hard for most creatures to aim it, as described under Weapon Size on page 113 of the Player’s Handbook. Thus, a Medium creature takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls when using a ballista, and a Small creature takes a –6 penalty."

Which is still the dumbest thing I've found in the DMG. Why would humans build a siege engine that is two sizes too large for them to use? Ugh.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Hah. If only that were true. From the DMG, p. 100:

"A ballista is essentially a Huge heavy crossbow fixed in place. Its size makes it hard for most creatures to aim it, as described under Weapon Size on page 113 of the Player’s Handbook. Thus, a Medium creature takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls when using a ballista, and a Small creature takes a –6 penalty."

Which is still the dumbest thing I've found in the DMG. Why would humans build a siege engine that is two sizes too large for them to use? Ugh.Say wha? I though Ballista were statted out somewhere specifically(and much better than that). Heroes of Battle or similar.
Even so, a Ballista is not a very large crossbow fixed in place, the 2 are designed completely differently, with different purposes in mind. That's idiotic. Knowing WotC, I'm not sure why I'm surprised.

[Glimbur]

Can't you get a Force bow instead?

[Coidzor]

I have been wanting to get Hank's Energy bow since they statted up the old cartoon show...:smallamused:

[Cieyrin]

Say wha? I though Ballista were statted out somewhere specifically(and much better than that). Heroes of Battle or similar.
Even so, a Ballista is not a very large crossbow fixed in place, the 2 are designed completely differently, with different purposes in mind. That's idiotic. Knowing WotC, I'm not sure why I'm surprised.

Heroes of Battle briefly describes balistas as being like huge crossbows but then go on to explain them as their own weapon, so no silly size penalties, though they require their own feat, Ballista Proficiency, fittingly. Plus, the rest of the crew working the machine can aid the crew chief in his attack roll, so they can make a decent attack against smaller targets than gates and other siege engines.

[Curmudgeon]

As I pointed out, it's purely the size of the bolts that matter. You just need enough momentum that wind won't deflect your shot significantly.

[Draz74]

Can't you get a Force bow instead?

You can, and should, get a Force bow. Overcoming all DR and incorporeality for a +2 enhancement is a steal!

However, while I've seen the claim a number of times that Force Bows penetrate Wind Walls, I have yet to see any justification of why this would work from the game rules. I'd love to be proved wrong, though.

[Doc Roc]

Splitting wounding.

[Bad Situation]

Are you allowed to put weapon enhancements on specific weapons? Because ever since my DM let me put Splitting on an Energy Bow the question has been nagging at me for awhile.

But any my favorite bow properties are Force and Splitting with arrows of Greater Dispelling and Magebane whenever I have to go against a caster. I also try to fit Holy or Unholy onto my bow whenever possible.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Are you allowed to put weapon enhancements on specific weapons? Because ever since my DM let me put Splitting on an Energy Bow the question has been nagging at me for awhile.Yes, but you have to figure out the cost of the weapon in terms of +X enhancements first, which sometimes is harder than it sounds.

[Emy]

I just copied this from one of my posts in a similar thread.

:)


I see I've been beaten to some things (raptor arrows), but here's my bow. Or what would be my bow if I were ever a very wealthy archer.

Spellblade (GP) Initiative (GP) Parrying (GP) Splitting (+3) Seeking (+1) Accurate (+1) Distance (+1) Holy [or Unholy] (+2) Energy Bow Item Familiar (overall, a +10 equivalent weapon)

Item familiar abilities:
Intelligent Item Lesser Power: Bless 3/day
Intelligent Item Greater Power: Haste 3/day
Special Purpose Item Dedicated Power: Wielder gets +2 luck bonus on attacks, saves, and checks

Crystal of Return, least - I wanted to put an Energy Assault crystal on this, but it doesn't look like it'll transfer the effect. This one is actually useful.

Modifications: Oil Chamber (Use oils of greater magic weapon), Wand Chamber (Wand of Arrow Storm. Maybe something else, though. I wonder if the Bloodstorm Blade trick works with Arrow Storm.)

Template: Dwarvencraft - if it can be applied to this weapon. It might be impossible.

Also: Raptor Arrows and Efficient Quiver (aka Quiver of Elhonna) for use with the bow. (I'm not sure what enchantments to put on them, though.)

Grab some pixie sleep arrows and memory loss arrows for utility/fun.

(Replace Distance with Aptitude if you're feeling abusive.) Also, I had Warning on the bow, but if you want it just hold a +1 Eager Warning Whatever normally, and quick draw your bow for combat. Or put it on Armor Spikes.


Sources

Accurate: Drow of the Underdark pg 95
Aptitude: Tome of Battle pg 148
Arrow Storm: Spell Compendium pg 16
Eager, Warning, Raptor Arrow, Crystal of Return: Magic Item Compendium pg 34, 46, 56, 65
Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a)
Initiative: Oriental Adventures pg 126
Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm), Seeking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#seeking), Distance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#distance), Parrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#parrying), Efficient Quiver (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#efficientQuiver): SRD
Oil Chamber + Wand Chamber: Dungeonscape pg 33/34
Pixie arrows: Savage Species pg 51
Splitting: Champions of Ruin pg 42
Spellblade: Player's Guide to Faerun pg 120

[sofawall]

As I pointed out, it's purely the size of the bolts that matter. You just need enough momentum that wind won't deflect your shot significantly.

Uh oh. We're straying dangerously close to real-life physics in D&D.

[Eloel]

Uh oh. We're straying dangerously close to real-life physics in D&D.

Quick, hide the catgirls.

[Eldariel]

Emy pretty much covered it, but I'd definitely make the baby Elvencraft. Also, Pitspawned template might be superior to Dwarvencraft due to actual combat boost, albeit a mild one.

Energy Bow, Splitting (Force - sorta worth it when using arrows), Collision (or Holy/Unholy), Seeking and mayhap Distance or Accurate.


As for Force vs. Wind Wall, it's mostly a common sense application. If the bullet is Force and Wind Wall doesn't deflect e.g. Magic Missiles (it doesn't), the Force-bolt is equally uneffected.

[Curmudgeon]

As for Force vs. Wind Wall, it's mostly a common sense application. If the bullet is Force and Wind Wall doesn't deflect e.g. Magic Missiles (it doesn't), the Force-bolt is equally uneffected.
It may be common sense, but it's not RAW.
Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss, while any other normal ranged weapon passing through the wall has a 30% miss chance. (A giant-thrown boulder, a siege engine projectile, and other massive ranged weapons are not affected.) There are no exceptions for types of arrows and bolts, only for their size.

[Eldariel]

It may be common sense, but it's not RAW. There are no exceptions for types of arrows and bolts, only for their size.

You're supposed to use common sense for things not covered by rules.

[Curmudgeon]

You're supposed to use common sense for things not covered by rules.
OK, so let's use common sense. Magic Missile always hits, and that's clearly different from an arrow shot. With a composite bow you add your Strength bonus to a force arrow shot ("Ammunition shot from a force weapon deals the same amount of damage as normal ammunition"), so it's clearly varying in response to external influences; again, this is unlike Magic Missile. Wind Wall is just another external influence, so to be consistent it should deflect an arrow of force as it deflects other arrows.

Thanks, Eldariel. It pays to use common sense.

[Eldariel]

OK, so let's use common sense. Magic Missile always hits, and that's clearly different from an arrow shot. With a composite bow you add your Strength bonus to a force arrow shot ("Ammunition shot from a force weapon deals the same amount of damage as normal ammunition"), so it's clearly varying in response to external influences; again, this is unlike Magic Missile. Wind Wall is just another external influence, so to be consistent it should deflect an arrow of force as it deflects other arrows.

Thanks, Eldariel. It pays to use common sense.

Wow... I just don't know what to say. Do you really believe that or are you trying to come up with extremely unplausible explanations just to vindicate game rules not covering everything? Magic Missile launches force projectiles. Force bow launches force projectiles (it's even spelled out in the ability). Wind Wall doesn't affect one force projectile so it doesn't affect another.

As for strength-rating, the projectile is turned to force after it's fired. Not before it's fired. So you fire it normally and then it maintains everything else and becomes a force projectile.

[wadledo]

Wow, I can't believe I haven't thought of this build before.

Gestalt Soulknife/Soulbow//Swift Hunter (Which isn't unreasonable, as long as you keep the ranger/scout levels to one side).
Congratulations.
You have now become the most self-sufficient archer ever.

[Curmudgeon]

Wind Wall doesn't affect one force projectile so it doesn't affect another.
What in the rules makes you think this? Magic Missile has specific characteristics that are at odds with a force arrow. Why should a single similarity be enough to make you think it would dictate other characteristics of force arrows, when multiple differences exist?
The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment. ... Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell.
Shield creates an invisible, tower shield-sized mobile disk of force that hovers in front of you. It negates magic missile attacks directed at you. Should Shield negate force projectiles, too?

Let's just back off this lunacy, follow the rules, and pretend that common sense is actually common.

[sofawall]

I'm falling on Curmudgeon's side here.

Anyway, what size bolts do ballistas shoot, in D&D? I remember hearing they're Huge Crossbows, but does that mean a Huge Creature can pick one up and shoot is as a normal crossbow? What type of crossbow?

I'm somewhat confused.

[Curmudgeon]

Anyway, what size bolts do ballistas shoot, in D&D? Darrin provided the answer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6778168&postcount=13) on the previous page.

[sofawall]

So a Huge Creature could pick up a Ballista and shoot it at no penalty?

[Eldariel]

Should Shield negate force projectiles, too?

Shield gives you +4 AC bonus vs. them just like everything else, so the chances of it intercepting the arrows is already factored in. Considering force arrows have an attack roll, you don't need blanket "hits" and "doesn't hit"-factors here. Though the whole "Shield blocks Magic Missiles, period"-thing is pretty dumb.

[Myrmex]

Hah. If only that were true. From the DMG, p. 100:

"A ballista is essentially a Huge heavy crossbow fixed in place. Its size makes it hard for most creatures to aim it, as described under Weapon Size on page 113 of the Player’s Handbook. Thus, a Medium creature takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls when using a ballista, and a Small creature takes a –6 penalty."

Which is still the dumbest thing I've found in the DMG. Why would humans build a siege engine that is two sizes too large for them to use? Ugh.

I can see the reason why a ballista has an attack penalty. The reason why a human made it two sizes too big is so he has a freakin' ballista. Artillery is usually fairly inaccurate. Versus fortifications & formations, though, they do just fine.

[paddyfool]

If there was a +1 enhancement that negated Wind Wall & similar spells, would you take it? Let's say:

"Windrider" (+1): Projectiles with this enhancement are unaffected by any spell or other effect with "wind" in the descriptor.

[Curmudgeon]

So a Huge Creature could pick up a Ballista and shoot it at no penalty?
Pick up? No. A ballista is fixed in place. But a Huge creature with heavy crossbow proficiency could shoot one, without needing Ballista Proficiency.

[Cyrion]

Are the catgirls in danger if you bring history into D&D?

Historically, there are two different kinds of ballista- the Romans used one that shot rocks. It was bigger (especially longer) than the crossbow versions, but similar in principal. Sort of an early conceptual demo of a railgun.

[Moriato]

Wind Wall is just another external influence, so to be consistent it should deflect an arrow of force as it deflects other arrows.

Thanks, Eldariel. It pays to use common sense.

Great. Except you're not firing arrows anymore.


A projectile weapon with the force property turns ammunition shot from it into a force attack

Does wind wall deflect force attacks?

[Curmudgeon]

Great. Except you're not firing arrows anymore. Of course you are. These are still arrows, with a magical property added.
These force projectiles ... Ammunition shot from a force weapon deals the same amount of damage as normal ammunition. The force projectile weapon special ability defines exactly what properties a force attack provides:
These force projectiles automatically overcome damage reduction and suffer no miss chance against incorporeal targets, but they don't damage creatures immune to force effects. Apart from that, the arrows are still arrows; the weapon ability refers to them as both projectiles and ammunition, which have specific D&D meanings.
Does wind wall deflect force attacks? If they're force arrows or bolts, absolutely yes. As I said, the item property defines all the special characteristics of a force attack in one line. Everything else follows the usual rules.

[Moriato]

Of course you are. These are still arrows, with a magical property added.


Actually, no. The description of of the force property does not say that it adds anything at all to the ammunition.

It specifically says that it "turns the ammunition into a force attack".

Force bows do not fire arrows enchanted with force, they fire a force attack. Force slings do fire bullets enchanted with force, they fire a force attack. Etc, etc.

[Cieyrin]

That brings up the question of whether the Soulbow's mind arrows would be similarly affected by Wind Wall, as though they're called arrows, they're more bursts of force, which don't exactly have a mass for wind from a Wind Wall or other source of moving air to affect. I would rather say the Force Bow would fall under similar things, though only when firing the bolts of force it generated itself, not normal ammunition that can also be fired with it, as noted here from the description:

The bow can be used to fire normal or magic arrows, but in such cases the bow does not confer its damage due to force.

ALSO:
As they are force effects, the arrows do not suffer a miss chance when used against incorporeal creatures.
Emphasis mine. The arrows created by the Force Bow are specifically force effects, not arrows, so they wouldn't be affected by a Wind Wall.

On the matter of Huge creatures using ballistas like heavy crossbows, I would lean towards not, as, if we go by the Heroes of Battle description, ballistas are not strictly Huge heavy crossbows, they are their own weapon with a weapon proficiency that goes with them. As Heroes of Battle came out after the DMG, the information about them contained within supersedes the DMG's, which makes the Heroes of Battle description the current version.

This is just strictly speaking, of course. If a Huge giant were to take a light ballista and he had proficiency in heavy crossbows, I wouldn't see there being much difference between the two and rule that he could use one, though that's a DM ruling, not strictly supported by the rules. I wouldn't support the same for said giant using a heavy ballista, which is probably more akin to a Colossal Heavy Crossbow (though the damage doesn't scale correctly, unfortunately). I suppose the same could be done, though you'd have to be a Titan who advanced to Gargantuan sized to do such.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Curmudgeon]

It specifically says that it "turns the ammunition into a force attack".
And the force weapon special ability describes exactly what properties this force attack has, in one line.

Where in the rules are you getting anything else?

[Moriato]

And the force weapon special ability describes exactly what properties this force attack has, in one line.

Where in the rules are you getting anything else?

Umm... how about the part where it specifically says that it turns the ammunition into a force attack? As in, the part where the arrow/bullet/bolt/whatever ceases to be an arrow/bullet/bolt/whatever and becomes (turns into) a force attack.

Wind wall blocks arrows/bullets/bolts/etc.

You are not firing an arrow, or a bullet, or a bolt, you a firing a force effect.

Edit: Actually, looking at wind wall, it only completely blocks arrows and bolts, while other "normal" ranged weapons, which I suppose would include sling bullets, have a 30% miss chance.

Regardless, a "force projectile" is not an arrow or a bolt, and I wouldn't exactly call it a "normal" ranged weapon.