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Faulty
2009-08-23, 09:59 AM
I'm not sure what stances to go with for my Warblade. Starting at level 10, my character is a modified LA 0 Gnoll (+2 Str instead of +4, no racial HD). For roleplaying reasons she's not taking any Tiger Claw maneuvers/stances, and a minimal amount of White Raven ones hopefully. Warblade stances are scarce is all, and I'm really not sure what to use.

Siosilvar
2009-08-23, 10:09 AM
At level 10 you'll have a level 1 stance, a level 2 stance and a level 4 or less stance. AFAIK, no level 2 or 4 stances exist, so you'll end up with 2 level 1 stances and a level 3 stance.

Iron Heart:
Absolute Steel: Level 3, effectively gives you Fast Movement (10ft) and Skirmish +0d6/+2 AC.
Punishing Stance: Level 1, +1d6 damage for -2 AC.

Diamond Mind:
Pearl of Black Doubt: Level 3, cumulative dodge bonus for each opponent that misses you, resets at each round. Quite obviously good against hordes of mooks with a few higher-power opponents thrown in.
Stance of Clarity: Level 1, effectively lets you "focus" your AC against one target.

Stone Dragon:
Crushing Weight of the Dragon: Level 3, gives you better damage in a grapple, equal to a greatsword.
Stonefoot Stance: Don't move and you get bonuses against bigger things. Seems rather useless except for "giant-killer" builds.

You said no Tiger Claw, so I'll skip those.

White Raven:
Tactics of the Wolf: Level 3, allies get (at level 10) +5 damage while flanking.
Leading the Charge: Basically what it says, IL10 gets +10 damage on allies' charges.
Bolstering Voice: Bumps up allies' Will saves.

The Verdict
You're probably going to want Punishing Stance and Stance of Clarity, and then pick Absolute Steel or Pearl of Black Doubt, depending on your character.

Keld Denar
2009-08-23, 10:13 AM
If you aren't gonna do Tiger Claw, then pretty much Diamond Mind and Iron Heart have the best stances. Punishing Stance is a pretty typical 1st level stance. Who doesn't like more damage? It quickly fades from usefulness though. Absolute Steel Stance is pretty nice if you tend to move a lot while using strikes. Note that you can tumble the distance if you need to. Meanwhile, Pearl of Black Doubt is amazing if you find yourself often swarmed by mooks, as this can get your AC 8-10 points higher on a given turn. It also combos well with Iron Heart's Wall of Blades counter, since if you can block the first hit, your AC goes up 2 points off the first attack!

Higher than that, Stance of Alacrity is SDGDESGNSFDJKGNFD AMAZING. Action economy is king, and surprisingly with ToB, your Swift Action is needed pretty often to do cool stuff. If you reacted with a counter last round, normally you can't boost or activate a swift magic item. This stance lets you. This can be REALLY big, depending on how many swift actions you regularly take. If you plan on using this a lot, pick up Wall of Blades and Lightning Recovery for sure.

woodenbandman
2009-08-23, 10:14 AM
Actually, at level 10, punishing stance is trivial. Skip it. You'd probably be better with something like whatever that diamond mind stance is at level 1. Anyway 1d6 is literally nothing at level 10 when you have power attack and weapon crystals and whatnot. Plus the -2 AC matters more at this level when monsters pretty much auto-hit and your hide is juicy tasty power-attack bait.

EDIT: And may I suggest a fighter dip of 2 levels? Delays your maneuvers advancement, but it lets you pick higher level stances. At level 8 your IL is 9 and IIRC that gets you a 5th level stance at that level. Generally a good idea.

Faulty
2009-08-23, 11:27 AM
I want to get Warblade 20 if the campaign goes that far, for the dual stances.

I actually have access to Dancing Blade Form at 10th level. Is that useful at all? Seems like it would be.

Elfin
2009-08-23, 12:03 PM
Stance of Alacrity is just amazing. As has been said, Punishing stance is good at low levels but trivial at higher ones. Absolute Steel is quite useful, as is Pearl of Black Doubt.

Faulty
2009-08-23, 12:14 PM
I won't be worrying about Stance of Alacrity for another 5 levels. :smalltongue:

I'm thinking I'll go with Stance of Clarity, Stonefoot Stance and either Pearl of Black Doubt, Absolute Steel or Dancing Blade form. I could always grab Martial Stance to get more.

Elfin
2009-08-23, 12:30 PM
Really, don't bother with Stonefoot; it's probably the most useless of the bunch. If you want, it might be a good idea to get Martial Study (no prereq Devoted Spirit maneuver) so that you can pick up Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades).
But only do this if you have 2 flaws and/or are human; otherwise you can't spare the feats.

Eldariel
2009-08-23, 02:16 PM
If you are a two-hander, Leading the Charge is probably the best stance for offensive purposes. The big question is, how do you fight? Everything depends on that, really.

Defensively, I'd never play a Warblade without access to Roots of the Mountain. That means you actually have a chance of beating all those Trip/Bull Rush/Grapple-checks big monsters throw at you, especially with Steadfast Boots.

Elfin
2009-08-23, 02:21 PM
On another note, you of course shouldn't bother with Pearl of Black Doubt if you have Shock Trooper- and I see no reason why you wouldn't.

Faulty
2009-08-23, 03:09 PM
I'm going to be roleplaying her like a Swordsage, so she'll be very focused. I was thinking of really accentuating Diamond Mind, with Iron Heart and Stone Dragon as complements. I am doing two-handed and will have Power Attack, I don't see why I couldn't pick up Shock Trooper.

Eldariel
2009-08-23, 03:18 PM
Leading the Charge seems like an excellent combat stance then (note that the boost applies to you too).

Haven
2009-08-23, 03:22 PM
I'm going to be roleplaying her like a Swordsage, so she'll be very focused. I was thinking of really accentuating Diamond Mind, with Iron Heart and Stone Dragon as complements. I am doing two-handed and will have Power Attack, I don't see why I couldn't pick up Shock Trooper.

If you're roleplaying her like a swordsage, and also doing a Shock Trooper build, I'd suggest going ahead and dipping Swordsage, as one of their first level stances basically gives you a Blur effect as long as you move at least ten feet in a round, and that'll definitely come in handy.

Faulty
2009-08-23, 03:39 PM
I'm really hoping to get that dual stance thing at Warblade 20 if the campaign gets that far. Talk about sexy.

The idea I have going on his a warrior obsessed with physical and mental self-improvement, who'd charge into combat (Shock Trooper, Power Attack), and then use superior weapon skill and will power (Iron Heart and Diamond Mind strikes/counters/stances/boosts) to defeat her opponents.

I plan on using a halbred. I wish Improved Trip wasn't linked to freaking Combat Expertise.

ColdSepp
2009-08-23, 03:42 PM
I'm really hoping to get that dual stance thing at Warblade 20 if the campaign gets that far. Talk about sexy.

The idea I have going on his a warrior obsessed with physical and mental self-improvement, who'd charge into combat (Shock Trooper, Power Attack), and then use superior weapon skill and will power (Iron Heart and Diamond Mind strikes/counters/stances/boosts) to defeat her opponents.

I plan on using a halbred. I wish Improved Trip wasn't linked to freaking Combat Expertise.

A two level barbarian dip can get you Pounce and Improved Trip. Note that Shock Trooper requires charging, and you can't use Strikes with it. Charge is a Full Round Action, so you don't have the Standard Action needed to initiate strikes.

Eldariel
2009-08-23, 03:51 PM
A two level barbarian dip can get you Pounce and Improved Trip. Note that Shock Trooper requires charging, and you can't use Strikes with it. Charge is a Full Round Action, so you don't have the Standard Action needed to initiate strikes.

You can use strikes that involve charging though, such as Pouncing Charge, Bounding Assault or Battle Leader's Charge.

Elfin
2009-08-23, 03:52 PM
Initiating a strike is a swift action, not a standard.
And if you want pounce you can always do a dip into Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian.

Faulty
2009-08-23, 03:54 PM
Most strikes are one standard action.

Eldariel
2009-08-23, 03:55 PM
Initiating a strike is a swift action, not a standard.
And if you want pounce you can always do a dip into Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian.

Initiating a strike is a standard or a full-round action. Initiating a boost is often a swift action, as are some other maneuvers, but I know of no swift action strikes.

ColdSepp
2009-08-23, 03:56 PM
Initiating a strike is a swift action, not a standard.
And if you want pounce you can always do a dip into Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian.

Initiating a boost or stance is a swift action, counters are immediate actions and strikes are standard, as a general rule. There are some exceptions, of course, and some strikes and stances that work with a charge.

However, I maintain that a PA Full Attack (Pounce) on a charge will be as good or better then any strike.

Faulty
2009-08-23, 04:00 PM
How exactly do I get pounce with a 2 level Barbarian dip?

Eldariel
2009-08-23, 04:01 PM
How exactly do I get pounce with a 2 level Barbarian dip?

Use the Spirit Lion Totem alternate class feature for Barbarian from Complete Champion. Loses Fast Movement, gets Pounce.

And I maintain that charge maneuvers with full PA Shock Trooper are better for characters who have invested levels in acquiring said maneuvers, than just plain full PA Shock Trooper charges (unless refreshing, in which case you obviously just charge).

Elfin
2009-08-23, 04:01 PM
Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian.
From CC, I think.

EDIT: Ninja'd

Faulty
2009-08-23, 04:04 PM
That actually makes sense from a background perspective. Thank you.

ColdSepp
2009-08-23, 04:05 PM
How exactly do I get pounce with a 2 level Barbarian dip?

Go Spirit Lion gets Pounce at Level 1
Go Wolf Totem at level two, which trades Uncanny Dodge for Improved Trip.

Your DM may say no, but you know you want to play A Spirit Totem Wolf Lion. Because its a Wolf and a Lion.

The only way we could be even more awesome is if we could be a Wolf Lion Orca!

Also, a two level dip means you are one IL higher for stances and maneuvers as a Warblade, so better to do that then just 1. Go fighter for an extra feat, if the DM won't combine them.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-08-23, 05:33 PM
Most of a Warblade's ability to kill things come from Tiger Claw. With boosts like Xing Mongoose to grant additional attacks, Pouncing Strike, and Blood In The Water, it's very potent damage output.

If you don't want Tiger Claw, consider that Crusader also gets Stone Dragon and White Raven, and also gets Devoted Spirit, which has some *VERY* nice stances. Thicket of Blades has been mentioned, plus the level 1 stance where you heal 2 points per hit you land on an opponent.

If you are wanting to build in some damage mitigation, Crusader is definately the way to go, with built in damage delay which further increases your damage output. Also, Stone Power feat plus Shards of Granite gives you the ability to ignore the first 10 damage per round, plus ignore all DR and Hardness.

I would suggest dipping Fighter for 2 levels for feats.

Elfin
2009-08-23, 05:38 PM
Devoted Spirit really does have some nice maneuvers and stances; you might consider playing an elf so that you can go into Eternal Blade- it's a great PrC, and let you access Devoted Spirit. The only downside is that you don't get any Tiger Claw or Stone Dragon, but it's still worth a few levels even if you don't take it to 10. Then again, the capstone is pretty damn awesome.

ColdSepp
2009-08-23, 05:57 PM
Most of a Warblade's ability to kill things come from Tiger Claw. With boosts like Xing Mongoose to grant additional attacks, Pouncing Strike, and Blood In The Water, it's very potent damage output.

If you don't want Tiger Claw, consider that Crusader also gets Stone Dragon and White Raven, and also gets Devoted Spirit, which has some *VERY* nice stances. Thicket of Blades has been mentioned, plus the level 1 stance where you heal 2 points per hit you land on an opponent.

If you are wanting to build in some damage mitigation, Crusader is definately the way to go, with built in damage delay which further increases your damage output. Also, Stone Power feat plus Shards of Granite gives you the ability to ignore the first 10 damage per round, plus ignore all DR and Hardness.

I would suggest dipping Fighter for 2 levels for feats.

This is mostly good advise. However, I strongly recommend against Stone Power at Level 10. At this point, 10 Temp HP won't help much, and the penalty to hit applies to all attacks until you start your next round. A lower levels, its great, though.

That said, Crusader is extremely good at tanking and self healing.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-08-23, 07:26 PM
This is mostly good advise. However, I strongly recommend against Stone Power at Level 10. At this point, 10 Temp HP won't help much, and the penalty to hit applies to all attacks until you start your next round. A lower levels, its great, though.

That said, Crusader is extremely good at tanking and self healing.

If you aren't able to compensate for a -5 to attacks by level 10, you have bigger problems than damage mitigation... liberal use of methods for consistently gaining touch attacks is the easiest way, but there are other methods. Also, being able to ignore DR, regardless of the source, is well worth it, particularly when you start squaring off against constructs and outsiders. No having to remember if it is Cold Iron or Silver which bypasses DR anymore, you simply bypass it all. And without any additional penalty above and beyond the -5 from Stone Power to mitigate 10 damage/round.

ColdSepp
2009-08-23, 07:33 PM
If you aren't able to compensate for a -5 to attacks by level 10, you have bigger problems than damage mitigation... liberal use of methods for consistently gaining touch attacks is the easiest way, but there are other methods. Also, being able to ignore DR, regardless of the source, is well worth it, particularly when you start squaring off against constructs and outsiders. No having to remember if it is Cold Iron or Silver which bypasses DR anymore, you simply bypass it all. And without any additional penalty above and beyond the -5 from Stone Power to mitigate 10 damage/round.

Yes, but with a two handed weapon, that is an extra 10 damage you could be doing per attack. Including AoOs. However, the Temp HP is maxed at 10, so you gain no further benefit from it. Furthermore, you can PA up to your BAB (or AC, since it was already stated they where getting Shock Trooper), where Stone Power limits you to -5. And as you said, mitigating the To Hit penalty isn't the issue.

PA is the more useful feat, IMO.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-08-23, 08:15 PM
Yes, but with a two handed weapon, that is an extra 10 damage you could be doing per attack. Including AoOs. However, the Temp HP is maxed at 10, so you gain no further benefit from it. Furthermore, you can PA up to your BAB (or AC, since it was already stated they where getting Shock Trooper), where Stone Power limits you to -5. And as you said, mitigating the To Hit penalty isn't the issue.

PA is the more useful feat, IMO.

Nothing says you can't do both Stone Power and Power Attack...

ColdSepp
2009-08-23, 08:26 PM
Nothing says you can't do both Stone Power and Power Attack...

That is true. :smallbiggrin:

Faulty
2009-08-23, 09:13 PM
The character's concept requires Warblade or at least Swordsage, sorry. No Crusaders. I'm going with Spirit Lion Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 8 for starters. Some Tiger Claw stances could make sense, but I'm really looking for a concept about taming the beast within and making use of concentration and precision.

Elfin
2009-08-23, 09:14 PM
Don't put in a level of fighter- if you make it a warblade 9, you'll get a 5th level maneuver.

And anyway, IMO fighter levels 1&2 aren't really worth the dip just for the bonus feats- you have less skill points (and fewer class skills), a smaller hit die, and miss out on new maneuvers.

Mongoose87
2009-08-23, 09:19 PM
Don't put in a level of fighter- if you make it a warblade 9, you'll get a 5th level maneuver.

And anyway, IMO fighter levels 1&2 aren't really worth the dip just for the bonus feats- you have less skill points (and fewer class skills), a smaller hit die, and miss out on new maneuvers.

I believe, the levels are to raise your initiator level for maneuvers and stances in the first two levels of Warblade.

Faulty
2009-08-23, 09:22 PM
The above is correct.

Elfin
2009-08-23, 09:44 PM
Ah, ok. That makes sense.

Eldariel
2009-08-23, 09:51 PM
Go Barbarian 2. Improved Trip without prerequisites is better than whatever feat you'd pick with Fighter and Barbarian is cooler anyways. And gets more skillpoints.

Faulty
2009-08-23, 10:02 PM
Well, she's from one of two tribes of gnolls that escaped from one plane to another, the lion and the wolf tribes. So that makes sense. Only two stances to choose from, however.

AslanCross
2009-08-24, 03:25 AM
Definitely take Pearl of Black Doubt. It retains its usefulness at higher levels. I've gotten my AC up to the 50s with it. :smallbiggrin:

oxinabox
2009-08-24, 04:24 AM
at low lvls punishign stance is worth a warblade dip.
at higher lvls thers that iron heart that increases your reach by 5 ft

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-08-24, 05:09 AM
If the character is trying to harness the primal side, then Tiger Claw sounds like a natural (if you'll pardon the pun) for her. In which case, may I direct you to the brokenness that is Blood In The Water + 2x Keen Kukri + Xing Mongoose? You'll be critting on every other hit before long.

Faulty
2009-08-24, 10:55 AM
No, she's trying to control her primal side. She has a two levels in Barbarian, and part of the schtick will be that she only rages when she really has to. I've been focusing on Iron, Diamond and Stone. I've got Moment of Perfect Mind, Wall of Blades, Insightful Strike, Iron Heart Surge, Ruby Nightmare Blade, Douse the Flames and Battle Leader's Charge. For stances I have Leading the Charge and Absolute Steel Stance. I'd be charging a lot with Shock Trooper, so I'm not sure Pearl of Black Doubt would be too useful.

Elfin
2009-08-24, 12:28 PM
Not too bad at all. Should be an effective build, as long as you can charge.
Have you picked up Leap Attack? It will triple your PA damage.

Faulty
2009-08-24, 12:39 PM
I could definitely pick up Leap Attack.

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-25, 09:39 AM
Go Spirit Lion gets Pounce at Level 1
Go Wolf Totem at level two, which trades Uncanny Dodge for Improved Trip.

Your DM may say no, but you know you want to play A Spirit Totem Wolf Lion. Because its a Wolf and a Lion.

You can't do that! Both are alternate class features for level 1 and both require sacrificing fast movement. Trading fast movement for pounce alone is generally considered incredibly powerful on its own. I think that's better handled simply in RP/backstory/fluff.

Looking over the entry in Complete Champion, I notice that the totem abilities are supernatural... so you can't pounce into an AMF?

obnoxious
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Eldariel
2009-08-25, 10:29 AM
You can't do that! Both are alternate class features for level 1 and both require sacrificing fast movement. Trading fast movement for pounce alone is generally considered incredibly powerful on its own. I think that's better handled simply in RP/backstory/fluff.

He can. Wolf Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) does not trade away Fast Movement.


Looking over the entry in Complete Champion, I notice that the totem abilities are supernatural... so you can't pounce into an AMF?

Yeah.

lsfreak
2009-08-25, 10:30 AM
EDIT: Nevermind.

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-25, 11:33 AM
He can. Wolf Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) does not trade away Fast Movement.

In that case the character would be a Wolf Totem Variant Barbarian 2 with the Lion Spirit Totem alternate class feature at level 1.

This is a little different than was referenced in the post I was quoting and I mistakenly assumed we were only looking at the Spirit Totems from Complete Champion.

I think labeling the Spirit Totem alternate class features as supernatural is absurd.

obnoxious
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