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SSGoW
2009-08-23, 04:37 PM
all were level 6

warden
sorcerer
swordmage
bard

v.s

level 15 fighter (multiclassed ranger)

In the fight ... i played the fighter how most ppl would... used her day/enc/at wills when needed or in the best place....

most people on here said that the fighter was to high of a level but... she would have been creamed if the fighter was to stay... (plot reasons she ran away) ... she had magic items to boost her stats (so did the players) but they were still able to destroy her (they wasn't supose to though >.<)

sooo 4 level 7's can take a level 15 fighter (striker/defender)

what i need to know now is stats for a minion generator of some sort, like they kiill all the minions but the generator revives them, anyone know of anything like that? i'm going to put them against a boss monster that has minions that just wont go away unless other methods are done

here is the fighter

rush, level 15
Dragonborn, Fighter, Kensei
Build: Tempest Fighter
Fighter Talents: Tempest Technique
Kensei Focus: Kensei Focus Handaxe

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 21, Con 19, Dex 12, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 11.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 15, Con 16, Dex 10, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 8.


AC: 27 Fort: 28 Reflex: 23 Will: 23
HP: 118 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 33

TRAINED SKILLS
Heal +14, Endurance +15, Athletics +18

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +7, Arcana +8, Bluff +7, Diplomacy +7, Dungeoneering +9, History +10, Insight +9, Intimidate +11, Nature +9, Perception +9, Religion +8, Stealth +7, Streetwise +7, Thievery +7

FEATS
Level 1: Hurl Breath
Level 2: Power Attack
Level 4: Weapon Focus (Axe)
Level 6: Weapon Expertise (Axe)
Level 8: Poison Inured (retrained to Combat Anticipation at Level 11)
Level 10: Martial Freedom
Level 11: Deadly Axe
Level 12: Uncanny Dodge
Level 14: Paragon Defenses

POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Footwork Lure
Fighter at-will 1: Dual Strike
Fighter encounter 1: Funneling Flurry
Fighter daily 1: Tempest Dance
Fighter utility 2: Boundless Endurance
Fighter encounter 3: Crushing Blow
Fighter daily 5: Pinning Smash
Fighter utility 6: Unbreakable
Fighter encounter 7: Savage Parry
Fighter daily 9: Victorious Surge
Fighter utility 10: Strength From Pain
Fighter encounter 13: Crumpling Slam (replaces Funneling Flurry)
Fighter daily 15: Serpent Dance Strike (replaces Tempest Dance)

ITEMS
Assassinbane Chainmail +3, Final Word Handaxe +3, Vengeful Handaxe +3, Bracers of Mighty Striking (paragon tier), Wallwalkers (heroic tier), Strikebacks (heroic tier), Helm of the Flamewarped (heroic tier), Amulet of Resolution +3, Ring of Fury (paragon tier), Belt of Giant Strength (paragon tier), Solitaire (Aquamarine) (paragon tier), Elixir of Reflexes (level 8) (5), Elixir of Will (level 8) (5), Potion of Regeneration (heroic tier) (4), Potion of Healing (heroic tier) (10), Candle, Drum

tcrudisi
2009-08-23, 05:11 PM
I realize this isn't going to be much of a help, but I played in a module where this occurred. It was set up as a "trap". We could disable them via arcana or thievery checks. All I remember is that they were coming from ... chimneys?

Anyway, you might be able to take this info and find the module. At least that gives you a precedent for how to handle the xp, how to handle the difficulty, etc.

SSGoW
2009-08-23, 05:25 PM
i was thinking more of a minion reviver? but a generator would be nice (every round 1dX comes out) that way they get a chance to stay alive

FoE
2009-08-23, 05:45 PM
I am quite frankly astonished they were even able to hit her.

ColdSepp
2009-08-23, 05:46 PM
I am quite frankly astonished they were even able to hit her.

Me to. +7 from half level, plus gear...

SSGoW
2009-08-23, 05:57 PM
they used 22 point buy for their stats (or standard array) i think most had a +2 weapon.. the striker and leader had +10-13 to attack bonuses its not that hard to roll high enough to hit 23 - 27 plus the Bard has powers that grants crits sooo i dont understand why ppl think its even a hard fight when its 4 on 1... when made the same way...

Rush used her action point dragons breath and the same ammount of powers that the players had before they got her down past bloodied (like 45 hp)

FoE
2009-08-23, 06:04 PM
Her defences really seem too weak to me, and their bonuses sound a bit high.

SSGoW
2009-08-23, 06:07 PM
made with the official dnd character creator

erikun
2009-08-23, 06:56 PM
what i need to know now is stats for a minion generator of some sort, like they kiill all the minions but the generator revives them, anyone know of anything like that?
Orcus (MM1) is an example of a minion generator - anything dead stands up as a minion on Orcus's turn. You could also have Necromancers with "robes of bone" which create skeletons each turn, of a Goblin King with warriors running out of nearby tunnels, or simply a bottle of summoning with keeps producing imps. Anything which can potentially flood the fight through infinite minions should have a way to be turned off, though. (hazardous terrain/collapse tunnel for the goblins, smash the bottle)


As for the encounter... why give your Fighter 15 STR if your players were all starting with 20's in all their stats? Why chainmail when scalemail (especially +3 Dwarven Scalemail) is completely superior? Why put bonuses into DEX/CHA for level ups when the character doesn't use them?

If this was a solo, why didn't the Fighter get 2 Action Points, like every other solo?

I mean, I could see intentionally giving the Fighter poor stats if that's what the party had. However, it sounds like you through a rather underpowered character against a team full of optimizers, and see what happened. >_o Your AC could easily have been 30, boosting WIS rather than CHA would have given you +1 Will, I have no clue why you're fighting with two axes....

Yakk
2009-08-23, 07:23 PM
As for the encounter... why give your Fighter 15 STR if your players were all starting with 20's in all their stats?
*nod*, that is a reasonably large one.

A level 15 fighter has two +4s to allocate, and everything else gets a +1.

Why chainmail when scalemail (especially +3 Dwarven Scalemail) is completely superior?
The character is a tempest fighter. So chainmail gives the fighter +1 to hit and +2 to damage.

Why put bonuses into DEX/CHA for level ups when the character doesn't use them?
That looks like a dumb move.

Here is a decent hybrid Ranger|Fighter build:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6583820&postcount=38
that I requested earlier. It is to level 30, but you can see how it would work at lower levels. (Note that it is a half-orc).

A problem with the build as written is that the armor isn't masterwork.

I have no clue why you're fighting with two axes....
A real ranger|fighter hybrid can make hand axes reasonably effective. :)

Izmir Stinger
2009-08-23, 07:49 PM
i was thinking more of a minion reviver? but a generator would be nice (every round 1dX comes out) that way they get a chance to stay alive

Skull Lord is what you are looking for. Level 10 Artillery (Leader). MM page 236. He's a good lynchpin for an awesome boss fight, and level appropriate for your guys, too. I ran one in my group two weeks ago and it was really fun.

His deal is he has three skulls and 40 HP. Every time he is reduced to 0 HP one of the skulls is destroyed (selected randomly) and he is restored to hull HP. One of the skulls gives him a ranged /vs Fort attack that does decent fire damage. Another skull does a ranged attack /vs Will with lower cold damage that pushes the victim a whopping 5 squares. The last skull does what you are asking for; it resurrects a slain undead minion of level 12 or lower. All three of these abilities are minor actions (limit once per round) so he can use all three unless he is forced to move.

He also has a small aura that gives undead allies regen 5 and +2 to saving throws. Worthless for the minions, but this guy deserves a brute or two to run interference for him.

My encounter was him, 2 zombie hulks to keep the good guys off him, 10 "spectral musicians" that were homebrewed level 8 minions (re-flavored hobgoblin warriors) and a "flaming organ" which was a re-flavored elite flame jet (DMG page 90) and a "skeletal Matre d'" which was a homebrewed level 8 artillery that could hose them down with 2000 year old champagne for substantial acid damage (which he only got to do once). I played a selection of Bach's organ concertos in the background, as the "trap" was a giant self playing organ.

Excession
2009-08-23, 07:53 PM
Fighting with off-hand weapons and wearing chain is what Tempest Fighters do.

I notice a couple of problems with the build. The low strength has already been mentioned. At +3, that chain should be Braidmail, giving a +2 to AC from the masterwork bonus.

Feats. You shouldn't use power attack, especially when using one-handed weapons, I recommend Two-Weapon Fighting instead. Combat Anticipation doesn't stack with Paragon Defenses. You said multiclass ranger, but you didn't take any feat for that, did you change your mind?

Powers. Your second at-will should probably have been Brash Strike. Slide powers aren't going to be all that good for a fighter working alone, you can't rearrange enemies to benefit allies, and sliding them out of flanking you is unnecessary because you have Uncanny Dodge. Uncanny Dodge also removes the downside of Brash Strike. I didn't even look beyond at-wills here I'm afraid.

All of that is irrelevant though, because in 4e monsters are built differently from PCs. The system isn't designed around having PCs fight PCs, or for having a defender class fight alone. If you want your players to fight a really tough fighter, find a solo soldier 2 or 3 levels above them from the MM; it'll have a lot more HP for starters.

FoE
2009-08-23, 08:57 PM
Yes, OP, you did prove us wrong. We said a 15th level PC would be more than a match for four NPCs. I said differently. I was mistaken.

1) Excession has it right. PCs are built using different rules than NPCs in 4E; therefore, the general rule of pitting parties against monsters no more than five levels above them is out the window. In fact, using the NPC rules laid out in the DMG, I think you could build a far more appropriate threat to use against the party if you insisted on the lone fighter and it'd be a hell of a lot faster.

2) I underestimated the value of four-against-one odds, especially against a non-Solo monster. Solos can take a lot of punishment; your average Skirmisher, Lurker or even Brute cannot.

3) A fighter is a terrible choice to pit alone against four Arcane casters. Her Combat Challenge is rendered useless, for one thing. For another, her Will and Reflex stats are going to be lower. Overall, it's kind of a lousy build for taking on a party of this make-up and size.

Jack_Banzai
2009-08-23, 09:47 PM
+3 Chainmail should have been of an exotic make and boosted AC higher. Defenses were low. PCs generally have a ton less HP, and what they get are healing surges - but with nobody there to heal them, their survivability is nil. If you had made a level 15 solo monster, fighter flavored, which you SHOULD have done, it would have been a much better fight. Because a PC is a PC, and a monster is a monster.

Mando Knight
2009-08-23, 10:26 PM
I notice a couple of problems with the build. The low strength has already been mentioned. At +3, that chain should be Braidmail, giving a +2 to AC from the masterwork bonus.

Feats. You shouldn't use power attack, especially when using one-handed weapons, I recommend Two-Weapon Fighting instead. Combat Anticipation doesn't stack with Paragon Defenses. You said multiclass ranger, but you didn't take any feat for that, did you change your mind?

Powers. Your second at-will should probably have been Brash Strike. Slide powers aren't going to be all that good for a fighter working alone, you can't rearrange enemies to benefit allies, and sliding them out of flanking you is unnecessary because you have Uncanny Dodge. Uncanny Dodge also removes the downside of Brash Strike. I didn't even look beyond at-wills here I'm afraid.

All of that is irrelevant though, because in 4e monsters are built differently from PCs. The system isn't designed around having PCs fight PCs, or for having a defender class fight alone. If you want your players to fight a really tough fighter, find a solo soldier 2 or 3 levels above them from the MM; it'll have a lot more HP for starters.

Also, Kensai is the wrong Paragon Path. Pit Fighter, Inner Dragon, and Shock Trooper are all better.

Furthermore, the off-hand hand axe's enchantment is wrong: Vengeful weapon does nothing for a solo character. Battlecrazed does better, as does Flaming, and Wounding, and... Y'know, anything.

Here's my attempt at a better build. Note the ridiculously higher Reflex, as well as the higher AC, Fort, and Will. With a level 12 armor and two level 14 weapons, there should be plenty of gp left to purchase additional items with nasty properties.
level 15
Dragonborn, Fighter, Shock Trooper
Fighter Talents: Tempest Technique
Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Strength
Dragon Breath Damage Type: Dragon Breath Fire

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 22, Con 14, Dex 18, Int 11, Wis 15, Cha 11.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8.


AC: 29 Fort: 30 Reflex: 27 Will: 24
HP: 113 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 30

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +14, Endurance +16, Athletics +17

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +10, Arcana +7, Bluff +7, Diplomacy +7, Dungeoneering +9, Heal +9, History +9, Insight +9, Nature +9, Perception +9, Religion +7, Stealth +10, Streetwise +7, Thievery +10

FEATS
Level 1: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 2: Weapon Expertise (Axe)
Level 4: Weapon Focus (Axe)
Level 6: Hurl Breath
Level 8: Dragonborn Frenzy
Level 10: Warrior of the Wild
Level 11: Deadly Axe
Level 12: Paragon Defenses
Level 14: Uncanny Dodge

POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Dual Strike
Fighter at-will 1: Crushing Surge
Fighter encounter 1: Funneling Flurry
Fighter daily 1: Tempest Dance
Fighter utility 2: Unstoppable
Fighter encounter 3: Sweeping Blow
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter utility 6: Unbreakable
Fighter encounter 7: Reckless Strike
Fighter daily 9: Fighter's Recovery
Fighter utility 10: Defensive Resurgence
Fighter encounter 13: Appalling Crunch (replaces Reckless Strike)
Fighter daily 15: Serpent Dance Strike (replaces Tempest Dance)

ITEMS
Final Word Handaxe +3, Battlecrazed Handaxe +3, Amulet of Protection +4, Dwarven Braidmail Armor +3

Notes: This almost auto-hits any level 6 opponent. Switch to Double Sword for even more pain. Fortitude is almost untouchable. Rain of Steel, the only Stance in this build, punishes the Warden and Swordmage for sticking around. Invigorating and other recovery powers keep the fighter up longer despite the Sorcerer. Retraining a feat to Empowered Dragon Breath can annihilate the party with an Area Burst 2 in 10 power that deals 2d10+stat damage.

dragoonsgone
2009-08-23, 10:33 PM
Seems to me like the main reason you wouldn't want to put a PC against them is you don't want them to have that high level gear. Monsters don't have magical gear unless you give it to them. PCs have it for the bonuses.