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Mongoose87
2009-08-23, 05:43 PM
The base classes in the ToB get to switch out their old maneuvers for new ones at even numbered levels. Does this continue in prestige classes?

quick_comment
2009-08-23, 05:59 PM
No. If you want to swap maneuvers, you need to take levels in the base class and/or use a liberal interpretation of psychic reformatiojn

ColdSepp
2009-08-23, 06:03 PM
Also note that not all PrCs in Tome of Battle advance Initiator Level at the same rate as the base classes. Each one needs to be read carefully to see exactly what it does.

quick_comment
2009-08-23, 06:24 PM
Bloodstorm blade should advance initiator level and grant Iron Heart and Stone Dragon maneuvers.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-23, 06:26 PM
Bloodstorm blade should advance initiator level and grant Iron Heart and Stone Dragon maneuvers.

No, it shouldn't. It's powerful enough already.

ColdSepp
2009-08-23, 06:31 PM
No, it shouldn't. It's powerful enough already.

I agree. It's not really a Martial PrC, flavor wise. IMO, anyway. And it is quite strong.

The Glyphstone
2009-08-23, 06:46 PM
I dunno, having it grant a new maneuver at, say, levels 5 and 10 might actually encourage people to do something other than FighterX/WarbladeY/Bloodstorm Blade 4, picking up some of those cool but not-quite-mechanically superior abilities from the higher levels of the class.

Frosty
2009-08-23, 06:59 PM
Well, technically, the classl grants 3 Fighter Bonus Feats, which CAN be used to grab Martial Study...so there's your progression I guess.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-23, 07:00 PM
No, it shouldn't. It's powerful enough already.

No it isn't! It's not even equal to the base class used to enter it. It's considered a 2-level Dip, at most. If it progressed IL and gave maneuvers, then it would be a +2 PrC (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0). Otherwise, it sucks.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-23, 07:06 PM
No it isn't! It's not even equal to the base class used to enter it. It's considered a 2-level Dip, at most. If it progressed IL and gave maneuvers, then it would be a +2 PrC (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0). Otherwise, it sucks.

..."either it has to be the next Iot7FV or it sucks" is a horrible way to look at prestige classes.

Frosty
2009-08-23, 07:08 PM
No it isn't! It's not even equal to the base class used to enter it. It's considered a 2-level Dip, at most. If it progressed IL and gave maneuvers, then it would be a +2 PrC (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0). Otherwise, it sucks.

It...doesn't suck in certain specialized thrower build. but as a generic PrC, yea, it's not worth it without IL and maneuver progression.

ColdSepp
2009-08-23, 07:15 PM
It...doesn't suck in certain specialized thrower build. but as a generic PrC, yea, it's not worth it without IL and maneuver progression.

Why would you go into it if you didn't want to be a specialized thrower? That's the whole point of the class.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-23, 08:12 PM
..."either it has to be the next Iot7FV or it sucks" is a horrible way to look at prestige classes.

Um, no? There's a difference in those tiers, pal. Just because the class is +2 doesn't mean it's overpowered, it just means taking levels in that class is automatic for anyone playing the assumed entry.

True, most of the overpowered PrCs are in that tier, but I highly doubt the Moonspeaker or Legendary Captain or Soulbow are on par with the Incanatrix in terms of power or broken. The overpowered ones are on that tier because they are the most powerful PrCs in the game, and it makes sense for them to be in the highest tier.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-23, 08:26 PM
Um, no? There's a difference in those tiers, pal. Just because the class is +2 doesn't mean it's overpowered, it just means taking levels in that class is automatic for anyone playing the assumed entry.

True, most of the overpowered PrCs are in that tier, but I highly doubt the Moonspeaker or Legendary Captain or Soulbow are on par with the Incanatrix in terms of power or broken. The overpowered ones are on that tier because they are the most powerful PrCs in the game, and it makes sense for them to be in the highest tier.

A "tier" system makes sense for base classes as a measure of estimable power for DMs to utilize. PrCs, it makes less sense for as there are a myriad number of ways to qualify for the admittedly hundreds of PrCs, so an estimation of each PrC's power in relation to an "assumed entry" is, frankly, about as worthwhile as chewing coffee beans.

The Bloodstorm Blade PrC is possible to enter without taking a Warblade Dip, so assuming that Warblade is 'the assumed entry' is both asinine and presumptive.

Most maneuvers in ToB are not usable with ranged weapons. The Bloodstorm Blade makes that possible, but at the sacrifice of not being able to advance further in the traditional means of powering up your maneuvers. It is akin to entering a PrC that does not fully advance CL, but is built for casters (like, say, Malconvoker). Saying that it "sucks" because you can't think outside the box enough to make it work for you rather than you working for it speaks more towards your lack of ingenuity rather than towards a failure on the PrC's fault. Many players would be happy to take all ten levels of the PrC, and as such it should be regarded as a class of that measure.

Certainly, it can be used as a dip--but then again, so can any "Tier 1" base class in the game. So relegating a class to a "dip only" status because it has good features in its first few levels is a fool's chore: the wizard gets good features in its first few levels. So does the psion. So does the Io7FV, and the Void Disciple, and the Anima Magus, and the MoMF. Does that make them, too, dip classes? No.

Ernir
2009-08-23, 08:29 PM
No it isn't! It's not even equal to the base class used to enter it. It's considered a 2-level Dip, at most.

4 levels of Bloodstorm Blade are the best 4 levels a thrower can get, if you ask me.

Mmmm, I want a Dungeoncrashing, Palm Throwing, Stormguard Warrioring Bloodstorm Blade. Because damage in the thousands becomes more impressive if you do it from across the room. :smallcool:

The Glyphstone
2009-08-23, 08:35 PM
That's not the definition of a 'dip' class. A dip class is one whose class features granted in the early levels is disproportionately more valuable/powerful than those granted at later levels, particularly compared to the alternatives. Call them top-heavy, if you will.

IotSFV and Anima Mage get good stuff all through their progression, Initiate in particular gets increasingly better the more levels you take. MoMF likewise, its best features are in the latter levels of the class. Comparatively, a Bloodstorm Blade 10 will almost always be an inferior thrower to a Bloodstorm Blade 4/Master Thrower 5/Fighter 1 - after getting Lightning Ricochet at level 4, nothing BBlade gives you is really worth it until the 10th level and the ranged Whirlwind ability.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-23, 09:05 PM
That's not the definition of a 'dip' class. A dip class is one whose class features granted in the early levels is disproportionately more valuable/powerful than those granted at later levels, particularly compared to the alternatives. Call them top-heavy, if you will.

I understand that. What I'm saying is that relegating the BB to "dip-class" status because it doesn't progress maneuvers is idiotic.

The Glyphstone
2009-08-23, 09:10 PM
That's not why it's a dip class though - it's a dip class because nothing after those 4 levels is worth the investment. If it granted maneuvers, even just 1 or two over its entire progression, it'd make continuing past level 4 much more attractive. Dip-class status for the BB doesn't come from its lack of maneuvers, but adding them could be what is needed to drag it out of dip status.

Doc Roc
2009-08-24, 12:10 AM
I understand that. What I'm saying is that relegating the BB to "dip-class" status because it doesn't progress maneuvers is idiotic.

I disagree. I've never seen a serious build with more than 4 levels or less than 10. And the one that used 10 managed to stretch its range increment out to around 800 feet, and kill everything within reach.

This is indicative of a problem with the class. Would you be okay with a base class that saw only four levels used outside of remote cases? It's not that the other abilities are bad. It's that they aren't good. I would much rather do something interesting with my precious levels than lose out of most of my existing class features over time.

I personally allow BsB to progress IL but not grant maneuvers, which is still a weak fix, but it makes it a lot more fun and more variable.

Mongoose87
2009-08-24, 12:24 AM
I disagree. I've never seen a serious build with more than 4 levels or less than 10. And the one that used 10 managed to stretch its range increment out to around 800 feet, and kill everything within reach.

This is indicative of a problem with the class. Would you be okay with a base class that saw only four levels used outside of remote cases? It's not that the other abilities are bad. It's that they aren't good. I would much rather do something interesting with my precious levels than lose out of most of my existing class features over time.

I personally allow BsB to progress IL but not grant maneuvers, which is still a weak fix, but it makes it a lot more fun and more variable.

What about progressing IL, and give up the fighter bonus feats for a maneuver progression. Too good?

Salvonus
2009-08-24, 12:25 AM
Query: Why on earth would the Bloodstorm Blade being a +2 tier PrC be a desirable thing? The rest of the PrCs from ToB are +0 or +1 - is that not the "reasonable" range for PrCs? "Automatic entry" is, generally speaking, a bad thing from the perspective of game diversity.

(Of course, if you're looking at something like the Soulknife+Soulbow, that's just fine in my book. It needs the boost. :smalltongue:)

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-24, 12:35 AM
Query: Why on earth would the Bloodstorm Blade being a +2 tier PrC be a desirable thing? The rest of the PrCs from ToB are +0 or +1 - is that not the "reasonable" range for PrCs? "Automatic entry" is, generally speaking, a bad thing from the perspective of game diversity.

(Of course, if you're looking at something like the Soulknife+Soulbow, that's just fine in my book. It needs the boost. :smalltongue:)

So melee can have a nice thing for once, and not shoot themselves in the foot every time they want to do something the casters do?

Is that so wrong?

Longcat
2009-08-24, 12:46 AM
Would you be okay with a base class that saw only four levels used outside of remote cases?

I thought that class was called "Fighter"? With the remote case being Dungeoncrasher. :smallbiggrin:

Elfin
2009-08-24, 12:50 AM
I think Fighter has only two levels...and even that's stretching it.

Doc Roc
2009-08-24, 01:00 AM
So melee can have a nice thing for once, and not shoot themselves in the foot every time they want to do something the casters do?

Is that so wrong?

Ask Rich Baker or Skip Williams. I'll be hiding behind a nice solid crate.

Automatic entry is only a bad thing if there aren't multiple viable archetypes represented within the spread of available +2 PrCs. In other words, I think that mechanically, as long as there are multiple good things to do, it is okay if each of these good things has just one or two natural ways of being done. I am, by nature, a minimalist and a reductionist.

Salvonus
2009-08-24, 01:08 AM
So melee can have a nice thing for once, and not shoot themselves in the foot every time they want to do something the casters do?

Is that so wrong?

First off, there's absolutely nothing wrong with warrior-types having nice things. In fact, my favourite supplement is full of nice things for warriors! :smallsmile: It's called Tome of Battle. :smallwink:

That's where I don't quite get what you mean. ToB is nowhere near caster-level power, but it makes melee fun by giving them a myriad of cool options. I count that as a book full of nice things. :smallsmile: So, "for once" doesn't make much sense to me.

I always thought that PrCs were about adding interesting abilities and flavour to your character. I also thought they were about specialisation, in one form or another. It's supposed to be a trade-off of abilities, is it not? +2 tier PrCs are, as you called it, "automatic choices for entry" - so, suddenly, the "best" Warblade build is always going to involve Bloodstorm Blade. Why is that a good thing? Isn't it more interesting to have a diversity of different options that are more or less equal?

To me, giving more "nice things" to warriors would involve a whole bunch of extra disciplines and +0 or +1 tier PrCs. It wouldn't be making one particular ToB PrC more powerful than the other ones from that book, which is what I gather you're suggesting.

If I've misinterpreted what you're saying, I'm sorry. :smallfrown:

(Ah, in response to the previous post - the ToB base classes are actually quite nice, and +2 PrCs basically make taking 20 levels of the base class a poor proposition. That's another part of why I think it hurts mechanical diversity. Honestly, I hate +2 PrCs of all stripes. :smalltongue:)

Starbuck_II
2009-08-24, 05:49 AM
I think Fighter has only two levels...and even that's stretching it.

Dungeon Crashers take more to gain good Bull rushing damage.

But yeah, that is it.

Dhavaer
2009-08-24, 05:59 AM
Also note that not all PrCs in Tome of Battle advance Initiator Level at the same rate as the base classes. Each one needs to be read carefully to see exactly what it does.

Wut? All prestige classes grant initiator level on a 1:1 basis.


In most cases, you add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to determine your initiator level.

No prestige classes, as far as I'm aware, specify that they don't add full initiator level, so this general rule would apply. Did you mean that they don't advance maneuvers known and readied?

Sophismata
2009-08-24, 06:50 AM
Hmmm... I'm kind of surprised that the RKV is only +1, which puts it next to the Jade Phoenix Mage (not saying Jade Phoenix is bad, just that RKV seems to improve on Crusader / Divine much more than Jade Phoenix improves Swordsage / Arcane).

Kind of a shame to see the Mo9, my favourite prestige class, at -1; with the crazy feat requirements, though, it's easy to see why.

Yuki Akuma
2009-08-24, 07:08 AM
In general, initiators don't really need prestige classes - they get nice things all through their levels, so a Swordsage or Warblade or Crusader 20 is a fine build choice.

They're not like Paladins, whose entire progression beyond level 5 is getting cure disease a few more times per week, or clerics and wizards, who only progress turnign and familiars, respectively, which can easily be overcome by taking feats...

Master of Nine isn't very good because, while it gives you access to all the disciplines, you can't really take any of the higher level maneuvers in those disciplines because you need to start at like level 2.

Douglas
2009-08-24, 08:04 AM
Wut? All prestige classes grant initiator level on a 1:1 basis.
No, they don't.


No prestige classes, as far as I'm aware, specify that they don't add full initiator level, so this general rule would apply. Did you mean that they don't advance maneuvers known and readied?
I just checked, and each and every one of the PrCs that grant additional maneuvers known and readied specifically notes in the "Maneuvers" part of the class description that they advance initiator level at full speed. The sentence you quoted is no more nor less than an observation that this note is present for all but one of the PrCs in the book.


Master of Nine isn't very good because, while it gives you access to all the disciplines, you can't really take any of the higher level maneuvers in those disciplines because you need to start at like level 2.
Tell that to the Swordsage/Master of Nine I'm playing in a PbP here who will eventually end up with 7 of the 9th level maneuvers, including all three of the ones from non-swordsage disciplines.

As for the OP, RAW says that PrCs do not continue swapping. RAI as inferred by comparing maneuver learning rates between base classes and PrCs pretty clearly says that they should, though.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-24, 08:08 AM
Hmmm... I'm kind of surprised that the RKV is only +1, which puts it next to the Jade Phoenix Mage (not saying Jade Phoenix is bad, just that RKV seems to improve on Crusader / Divine much more than Jade Phoenix improves Swordsage / Arcane).

Kind of a shame to see the Mo9, my favourite prestige class, at -1; with the crazy feat requirements, though, it's easy to see why.

Chuck is a specific build. Specific builds weren't taken into account for that list. Chuck would be up there with Hulking Hurler, but normal RKV is just a +1.

Doc Roc
2009-08-24, 09:14 AM
I've seen a number of really potent RkV builds. If I might be indulged in an explanation?

RkV is only +1 because its normal entry method represents one of the most powerful base classes in the game, the cleric.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-24, 09:21 AM
I've seen a number of really potent RkV builds. If I might be indulged in an explanation?

RkV is only +1 because its normal entry method represents one of the most powerful base classes in the game, the cleric.

Well, Pally/Crusader can enter too. As can Crusader/Divine Crusader.

The assumed entry is Cleric X/Swordsage or Crusader Y. The devs usually assume an even 5/5/10 split when it comes to dual-progression PrCs like this (they assumed people would go Wizard 5/Fighter 5/EK 10, Cleric 5/Wizard 5/MT 10, and so on). With an even split between the two, it winds up being only a +1. If you tilt it in favor of one, or use a different class like Ur-Priest to enter, it would be a better PrC choice. But those would be specific builds designed to optimize a single PrC.

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-24, 10:29 AM
Wizard 5/Fighter 5/EK 10

Isn't this quite odd? :smallconfused:

Starbuck_II
2009-08-24, 10:29 AM
Isn't this quite odd? :smallconfused:

I assume he wanted more hps since Wizard 6 gives bab too.

ColdSepp
2009-08-24, 10:31 AM
I assume he wanted more hps since Wizard 6 gives bab too.

He was posting what WoTC assumed a build would have. Because, you know... WoTC has no idea how to build.

Doc Roc
2009-08-24, 10:35 AM
He was posting what WoTC assumed a build would have. Because, you know... WoTC has no idea how to build.

It's worse than that. I can only assume some of their stuff was willfully ignorant.

ColdSepp
2009-08-24, 10:37 AM
It's worse than that. I can only assume some of their stuff was willfully ignorant.

Yes. I just saw a sample Crusader with Two Weapon Fighting... because TWF is so good. Note to WoTC: Crusaders don't get Tiger Claw.

Mongoose87
2009-08-24, 10:43 AM
Yes. I just saw a sample Crusader with Two Weapon Fighting... because TWF is so good. Note to WoTC: Crusaders don't get Tiger Claw.

Maybe he uses a whip to trip and a light weapon for close range in his Thicket of Blades AoO build.

ColdSepp
2009-08-24, 10:57 AM
Maybe he uses a whip to trip and a light weapon for close range in his Thicket of Blades AoO build.

No. Battle Axe and Mace.:smallyuk:

Sophismata
2009-08-24, 10:58 AM
Chuck is a specific build. Specific builds weren't taken into account for that list. Chuck would be up there with Hulking Hurler, but normal RKV is just a +1.

I wasn't referring to Chuck - I just think that the ability to gain extra actions in a turn is extremely powerful (regardless of build), and places the RKV far above many other prestige classes. I note the Jade Phoenix Mage, because it's basically the same thing but for Arcane classes.

I'd say that the assumed build is Crusader 5 / Cleric 5 / RKV 10, because of the manoeuvre requirements and the Armoured Stealth ability.

Doc Roc
2009-08-24, 11:00 AM
No. Battle Axe and Mace.:smallyuk:

No wonder wizards hates us. They have no conception of how we function or what we do.

Eldariel
2009-08-24, 12:59 PM
I wasn't referring to Chuck - I just think that the ability to gain extra actions in a turn is extremely powerful (regardless of build), and places the RKV far above many other prestige classes. I note the Jade Phoenix Mage, because it's basically the same thing but for Arcane classes.

I'd say that the assumed build is Crusader 5 / Cleric 5 / RKV 10, because of the manoeuvre requirements and the Armoured Stealth ability.

You mean Crusader 1-4/Cleric 1-4. 'cause you qualify on level 5 basically automatically that way, no matter how you arrange 1-4 as long as they come out at 5 total. And it's a dual progression for the two, so this should be rather obvious.

And RKV loses out on caster levels hence why even +1 is about right. Casting is just that good, but the extra swift action really helps there, as do the maneuvers.

Sophismata
2009-08-25, 12:27 AM
You mean Crusader 1-4/Cleric 1-4. 'cause you qualify on level 5 basically automatically that way, no matter how you arrange 1-4 as long as they come out at 5 total. And it's a dual progression for the two, so this should be rather obvious.

And RKV loses out on caster levels hence why even +1 is about right. Casting is just that good, but the extra swift action really helps there, as do the maneuvers.

Well assuming the even 5/5/10 split spoken about earlier, it'd be Crusader 5 / Cleric 5 / RKV 10 because RKV has dual progression.

I get your point with the casting, but I will again point out the Jade Phoenix Mage, also a +1. Strictly speaking, RKV is a better PrC, and a better improvement on its base class(es). In my opinion, anyway.

Obviously people disagree, so I will bow to conventional wisdom in this matter.

Eldariel
2009-08-25, 08:21 AM
RKV has slower caster progression than martial progression though, and full BAB so I have a hard time seeing Clr 5 (which loses an extra level of casting), or indeed even Cru/Clr advancement to be assumed.

Sophismata
2009-08-26, 02:56 AM
Well, considering the Devoted Spirit requirement, and the fact that Cha to Will doesn't stack with Cha to Saves from a Paladin, I'm not seeing much else. The description itself mentions Crusader / Cleric, which seems the fastest (or rather, simplest) path.

Yuki Akuma
2009-08-26, 03:59 AM
Tell that to the Swordsage/Master of Nine I'm playing in a PbP here who will eventually end up with 7 of the 9th level maneuvers, including all three of the ones from non-swordsage disciplines.

He is not, however, a master of nine. Only seven. :P

Draz74
2009-08-26, 11:40 AM
He is not, however, a master of nine. Only seven. :P

Well, people at COp have come up with 20-level builds that let you learn all nine L9 Maneuvers. But some of them, well, aren't worth it.

ColdSepp
2009-08-26, 11:41 AM
A master of nine does grant access to all nine disciplines. Something no other class does.

sofawall
2009-08-26, 11:48 AM
He was posting what WoTC assumed a build would have. Because, you know... WoTC has no idea how to build.

And yet they are writing a book on it...

Douglas
2009-08-26, 11:49 AM
He is not, however, a master of nine. Only seven. :P
He may not have Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike (what does it say about me that I typed that from memory despite never having even built a character that has the maneuver, and I'm pretty sure it's exactly correct?:smalleek:) or Feral Death Blow, but he does have Raging Mongoose plus enough other Tiger Claw maneuvers to qualify for it and some significantly high level Shadow Hand maneuvers. I think he's as close to a "Master of Nine" as any character is likely to ever get without being specifically built to get all nine capstones at any cost with results that are rather suboptimal in other respects.

quick_comment
2009-08-26, 11:52 AM
Well, people at COp have come up with 20-level builds that let you learn all nine L9 Maneuvers. But some of them, well, aren't worth it.

Inferno blade is basically meteor swarm. Which sucks, because you can get more damage out of lower level strikes. Also, by the time you get it, everyone is immune to fire.

Time stands still is pretty awesome, as is Mountain tombstone strike. Feral death blow is only good if you have a high enough strength to make things fail the save. Five Shadow Enervating Creeper Strike is good, but again has the issue with the save. Strike of perfect clarity is terrible. You get +100 damage, but cant charge. I suppose its useful if you are unarmed, or a finesse fighter. Diamond Nightmare blade is way better though. Strike of righteous vitality is the best healing in the game. Tornado throw is awesome if optimized. War Master's charge is probably the best. You charge, all your allies and their summons get to charge. Then you use white raven tactics to let one of the people who just charged make a full attack, maybe a time stands still.