Optimizing the cleric

[rezplz]

I haven't done much with clerics before other than making heal-bots, so I was wondering how to optimize a cleric so that they'd be good at pretty much everything. Assume that there's a ridiculously high point-buy so all of his ability scores are amazing.

Basically, I want to know what spells and feats are the best to take to make a cleric who can kick some serious butt, cast some awesome spells, and patch himself up after battle. If it matters, this would be an evil cleric.

Edit: His level would be pretty high up there, somewhere from 15-20. I don't know much about higher levels, since the highest level character I've played is level 10.

Edit 2: I'm only familiar with core, so if you're gonna toss something non-core at me explain it please. And if possible I'd like to stick to core + complete series.

[Mongoose87]

Knowledge Devotion. Divine Metamagic: Perisist + Divine Power. You are done.

[Myshlaevsky]

I haven't done much with clerics before other than making heal-bots, so I was wondering how to optimize a cleric so that they'd be good at pretty much everything. Assume that there's a ridiculously high point-buy so all of his ability scores are amazing.

Basically, I want to know what spells and feats are the best to take to make a cleric who can kick some serious butt, cast some awesome spells, and patch himself up after battle. If it matters, this would be an evil cleric.

Edit: His level would be pretty high up there, somewhere from 15-20. I don't know much about higher levels, since the highest level character I've played is level 10.

The standard way to do it is to take a bunch of Extra Turning feats to gain the ability to do a lot of Divine Metamagic. Then you persist your buffs and buff yourself into the stratosphere with stuff like Divine Power, Shield of Faith and the like.

Edit: CoDzilla's make pretty awesome bosses for the PC's. Is that what you are thinking of?

[rezplz]

Mongoose: The only thing in your post that I recognized is Divine power, which is a very good spell if I recall correctly. Not sure what all the other stuff is, or what books they're from.

Myshlaevsky: Don't most buffs not work with permanency? And yeah, BBEG is what I'm going for.

[Myshlaevsky]

Mongoose: The only thing in your post that I recognized is Divine power, which is a very good spell if I recall correctly. Not sure what all the other stuff is, or what books they're from.

Myshlaevsky: Don't most buffs not work with permanency? And yeah, BBEG is what I'm going for.

Meant persist.

[Myou]

Knowledge Devotion. Divine Metamagic: Perisist + Divine Power. You are done.
How do you make Knowledge Devotion good?

[Mongoose87]

Mongoose: The only thing in your post that I recognized is Divine power, which is a very good spell if I recall correctly. Not sure what all the other stuff is, or what books they're from.

Myshlaevsky: Don't most buffs not work with permanency? And yeah, BBEG is what I'm going for.

Divine Power is a great spell, and the Metamagic feat Persist, combined with the other Metamagic feat "Divine Metamagic" can allow you to have it on all day at the cost of a handful of Turn Undead uses.

[Mongoose87]

How do you make Knowledge Devotion good?

Roll a d20?

[Myou]

Roll a d20?

But you'd need loads of skill points to be able to get high enough rolls for the bonus to be that good, and even if you hit 36, it caps there at +5. :smallconfused:

[Milskidasith]

Cloistered Cleric. Max out Spellcraft, Constitution, and four (or more) knowledges of your choice, get magic items to boost knowledge rolls, and boom, you're good.

[Tukka]

The spell lore of the gods (also in Complete Champion) gives you a +10 insight bonus to Knowledge checks if you worship a god that offers Knowledge as a domain (though you don't have to select it as a domain). Otherwise it only gives +5. 10 minutes/level and extendable with a lesser metamagic rod.

[Jack_Simth]

Mongoose: The only thing in your post that I recognized is Divine power, which is a very good spell if I recall correctly. Not sure what all the other stuff is, or what books they're from.

Myshlaevsky: Don't most buffs not work with permanency? And yeah, BBEG is what I'm going for.
Important Feats:
Persistent Spell: Complete Arcane (or was it Complete Mage? No matter, it's in The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell)) - makes a spell (of "personal or fixed" range) have a duration of 1 day, rather than whatever duration it had before. +6 metamagic adjustment, requires Extend Spell.
Divine Metamagic: From Complete Divine. Pick a metamagic feat you know. You can exchange turning attempts (1+metamagic level adjustment) to apply that metamagic on the fly to a spell, for no spell level adjustment.
Nightstick: An item from Libris Mortis. Grants 4 extra turning attempts, costs 9k. Pick up as many as you can. You also want a Strand of Prayer Beads (Core, for the Karma), and a Ring of Enduring Arcana (Magic Item Compendium, I think, but it might also be Complete Mage - +4 to your caster level for purposes of resisting Dispels), and a Ring of Spell Battle (Magic Item Compendium) to re-direct any spells coming at you.
Summon Elemental (Complete Mage Reserve Feat - trapspringer; bsically, summon a small, medium, or large elemental at-will as a supernatural standard action)
Fiery Burst (or one of the other ranged direct damage feats from Complete Mage - ranged offense, usable at will)

For scouting, pick up the Third Eye Sense from the XPH - standard-action command-thought - put your perspective anywhere "familiar or obvious"

The Trickery domain gives you access to the Hide skill.

For melee, DMM Persist Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might. Go to town. Unholy Aura, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, and Elation are not out of place here, either.

For trapfinding, DMM Persist Detect Magic, and watch while you send free elementals to their doom. When you find out what's causing the doom (by watching it) zap the doom until the doom is dead.

For social stuff, invest skill points in Diplomacy.

For healing, use DMM Persist on Mass Lesser Vigor (spell compendium) or Vigorous Circle (also Spell Compendium). Grants fast healing. DMM Persistent Spell makes them last all day.

[xPANCAKEx]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0

this should help you out

[Myou]

Cloistered Cleric. Max out Spellcraft, Constitution, and four (or more) knowledges of your choice, get magic items to boost knowledge rolls, and boom, you're good.

Ahhh, CC makes more sense, yeah. Although I still don't see why +5 is that big a deal - there are spells that can give you that sort of bonus without needing to spend most of your skill points and gold boosting one feat and, af without taking a feat either.

[Douglas]

Ahhh, CC makes more sense, yeah. Although I still don't see why +5 is that big a deal - there are spells that can give you that sort of bonus without needing to spend most of your skill points and gold boosting one feat and, af without taking a feat either.
Not with that bonus type. Just about the only ways to get insight bonuses to attack and damage are Knowledge Devotion and certain psionic powers. Since we're talking about clerics rather than psions here, that means Knowledge Devotion stacks with all the cleric's buffs.

[Thespianus]

Divine Insight (level 2 spell) will give you up to +15 on any skill check which helps you to max out your Knowledge Devotion

With CC, Divine Power, +3 from Divine Favor and a half decent strength score, you're swinging at full BAB, with a strength score that makes the Barbarian blush, and a +5 on attack and damage rolls from Knowledge Devotion.. Well, if you ain't hitting it, it cain't be hit.

Even without Cloistered Cleric, you can do ok if you play a dwarf with the Ancestral Knowledge feat and/or use the Knowledge domain.

It's goody-covered goodness with a goody filling. :smallsmile:

[Yuki Akuma]

Don't take Turning. It's a waste of a feat.

Buy Nightsticks. Lots of Nghtsticks.

[Thespianus]

Don't take Turning. It's a waste of a feat.

Buy Nightsticks. Lots of Nghtsticks.

If the DM allows Nightsticks to stack...well, consider yourself lucky. ;)

(Or a prime target for a shower of Dispel Magics)

[Yuki Akuma]

Why wouldn't they stack?

Do you think having, say, two eternal wands of Cure Light Wounds wouldn't be useable separately either? Two Healing Belts? What about two weapons with once-per-day abilities?

[Thespianus]

Why wouldn't they stack?

Do you think having, say, two eternal wands of Cure Light Wounds wouldn't be useable separately either? Two Healing Belts? What about two weapons with once-per-day abilities?
No, they stack by RAW, by all means.

It just gets slightly on the cheesy side when you buy them in dozens to fuel tons of DMM-Persist Spell-buffs, IMHO.

[Cyclocone]

No, they stack by RAW, by all means.

It just gets slightly on the cheesy side when you buy them in dozens to fuel tons of DMM-Persist Spell-buffs, IMHO.

"Sage also ruled against it" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080428a), is the con-argument i hear the most.


...Even if you should normally take Sage with a grain of salt, but YMMW.

[Myou]

Not with that bonus type. Just about the only ways to get insight bonuses to attack and damage are Knowledge Devotion and certain psionic powers. Since we're talking about clerics rather than psions here, that means Knowledge Devotion stacks with all the cleric's buffs.

Ahhhh, cheezy.

[Thespianus]

"Sage also ruled against it" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080428a), is the con-argument i hear the most.
Yeah, that's how I'd rule it too. One Nightstick per day per Cleric.

No need to invite infinite crazy to the game. ;)

[Mushroom Ninja]

It's bad enough with extra turnings alone...

[Thespianus]

Speaking of optimizing the Cleric.. Are there any decent ranged direct damage area of effect (yes, I know) spells available for the Cleric at the low end of the spell level spectra?

I mean, sometimes a Fireball *IS* the right answer. ;)

Is there any similar spells available for a Cleric before Flame Strike on spell level 5?

[Curmudgeon]

Speaking of optimizing the Cleric.. Are there any decent ranged direct damage area of effect (yes, I know) spells available for the Cleric at the low end of the spell level spectra?
No, there really aren't. The D&D Wizard was envisioned as a blaster. The Cleric was given spells that could target specific enemies (like heretics) for divine displeasure.

[Thespianus]

No, there really aren't. The D&D Wizard was envisioned as a blaster. The Cleric was given spells that could target specific enemies (like heretics) for divine displeasure.

Yeah, that's the impression I've got too. In our last session, the Cleric started to buff the party, while the Sorcerer blew 3 out of 4 rapidly approaching attackers out of the sky. (the fourth slipped on a patch of Grease that your friendly, neighborhood Arcane Rogue cast infront of the running enemies, and he fell into a sewer pit. That was amusing)

Well, my point was, kinda, that the Cleric didn't get to do much fun and the ranged spells she's got kinda sucks unless the target is undead.

[Eldariel]

Few exist, but they have additional effects which make them worthwhile. Level 2 Tyche's Darkbolt [LoM] is a good example - 5d8 (IIRC) damage and a save vs. daze or something. Cometfall (level something, Spell Compendium) is also nice, dealing damage and knocking people prone. Spells like these exist.

Other than that, you can either pimp out your Blasphemy-CL or forget about offensive casting outside SoDs like Destruction, Finger of Death, etc.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Aside from what has already been mentioned, such as playing a CC, (Cloistered Cleric), pick up the 2nd level conjuration spell: Healing Lorecall (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Spells-Cleric.pdf) from CAdv. Persist that bad boy before you do anything else each day. It has three effects:

1. Uses your ranks in Heal as your caster level when casting healing spells.
2. If you have 5+ ranks in heal, you may remove one of the following conditions (in addition to the typical effects of the spell) from the spell's target(s): dazed, dazzled, fatigued
3. If you have 10+ ranks in heal, you may remove one of the following conditions (in addition to the typical effects of the spell) from the spell's target(s): dazed, dazzled, fatigued, exhausted, nauseated, sickened

Also, on top of your default Knowledge domain from CC, at least pick up the Kobold (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) domain so as to gain Disable Device and Search as class skills in addition to a Rogue's Trapfinding class feature. I'm also a big fan of the Travel (SRD) domain so as to gain the (class level)/day SLA: Freedom of Movement. Although... Healing (SRD) is nice for the +1 to caster level on heal spells, Magic (SRD) to use items as a Wizard of 1/2 your Cleric level, Dream (CDiv) to gain immunity to fear, Pestilence (CDiv) to gain immunity to non-magical disease, and Pleasure (BoED) to gain immunity to Cha damage/drain.

If your DM is reasonable, and lets you trade out Lore (Bardic Knowledge for CCs) for the "Bardic Knack" (http://tehgamegroup.com/index.php?title=Burningsky_Bard) variant class ability (using your cleric levels rather than Bard levels, of course), you'd gain the ability to attempt any and all skill checks (if only moderately well) upon taking the Jack of All Trades (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm) feat at level 6.

[Thespianus]

Few exist, but they have additional effects which make them worthwhile. Level 2 Tyche's Darkbolt [LoM] is a good example - 5d8 (IIRC) damage and a save vs. daze or something.
It's not a Good example, it's an Evil example. ;)


Cometfall (level something, Spell Compendium) is also nice, dealing damage and knocking people prone. Spells like these exist. Mm..Cometfall is a level 6 spell, though. I was looking at levels 1-4, but I could have been a lot clearer about that. :)

But, thanks. :)

[Gnaeus]

I second this suggestion

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0

[Curmudgeon]

Aside from what has already been mentioned, such as playing a CC, (Cloistered Cleric), pick up the 2nd level conjuration spell: Healing Lorecall (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Spells-Cleric.pdf) from CAdv.
Pretty much nobody has that option, because there's a substantially revised version of Healing Lorecall in Spell Compendium. By WotC rules if you use anything in Spell Compendium in your game, you're forced to update to the newest versions of all content.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

My books are half a country away at the moment and I was not aware that there was a revised version of the spell in the Compendium. What's changed? :smallconfused:

[ColdSepp]

Pretty much nobody has that option, because there's a substantially revised version of Healing Lorecall in Spell Compendium. By WotC rules if you use anything in Spell Compendium in your game, you're forced to update to the newest versions of all content.

Really? Maybe my books are a later print, because the only difference is the SC one has a duration of 10 min/level, and CAd one has a duration of 1min/level.

[SensFan]

Really? Maybe my books are a later print, because the only difference is the SC one has a duration of 10 min/level, and CAd one has a duration of 1min/level.
Yeah, same with me. I had to reread it a couple of times to make sure.

[jiriku]

For low-level cleric spells, your best multi-damage options are all aura spells or bursts centered on yourself.

Positive Energy Aura (Cl4) in conjunction with the Augment Healing feat will deal 10 damage per round to undead within 10 feat while healing your and your allies for a like amount.

Energy Vortex (Cl3), while not great, is adequate if you take the double damage option and buff yourself with the appropriate energy resistance ahead of time - or if you're a monster with cleric levels and already have immunity or resistance to energy via your race/type.

Corona of Cold (Cl3), Hamatula Barbs (Cl3), and Ring of Blades (Cl3) will also damage adjacent foes or foes who hit you.

All of the above are from Spell Compendium. From the PHB, I'm partial to Sound Burst (Cl2), which deals minimal damage but may stun foes. Especially for a BBEG, who is usually outnumbered, it's often MUCH more valuable to degrade the players' available actions than to degrade their available hit points.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Really? Maybe my books are a later print, because the only difference is the SC one has a duration of 10 min/level, and CAd one has a duration of 1min/level.

So there is really no effect on how I suggest the spell is used. :smalltongue:

[ColdSepp]

So there is really no effect on how I suggest the spell is used. :smalltongue:

There might be, depending on if there where multiple printings of the book in which they updated the text. Or, if Curmudgeon is remembering wrong, there is no difference.