Epic level HD

[Kanlyven]

As the ultimate encounter for a game I'm running, I'm going to put together an ancient red dragon. My question is this: how do the dragon's 36hd interact with epic rules, and also would it's base attack really be +36 or would it be 20 with +16 epic base attack? So actually, I guess what I'm really wondering is how do monster hd fit into the epic scheme of things...

[Elfin]

BAB does not increase after level 20, though epic characters do get a fixed epic attack bonus.
The dragon is 36th level, and thus is an epic character.
Each monster type is its own "class", in a sense: the dragon has 36 levels in Dragon, a Wraith has 5 levels in Undead, an Ogre has 3 levels in Monstrous Humanoid.

[Xenogears]

They act pretty much like levels do. That 21st HD allows epic feats ( so that means what 6 epic feats?).

[Milskidasith]

Also, it gets a +8 epic AB and a +8 epic bonus to all saves, not a +16 like you think. So it's AB would be +20/+15/+10/+5 BAB +8 Epic +X other.

[Douglas]

Racial hit dice are a specific exception to the epic attack bonus and saves rules. This dragon would, indeed, have +36 BAB. It really doesn't matter for saves, though, because the epic progression and the all good progression that dragons get are exactly the same. Even if it gets iterative attacks somehow (natural attacks normally don't) it would not get more than the four that +16 BAB gives you.

[Kanlyven]

So then if I were to load up a... for example, nightwalker, with another 21 undead hd, then it would be eligible for 7 epic feats, +10 BA and the cr would theoretically only increase by 5. (well 6 due to size increase)

Oh CR system, is there any encounter you can't be destroyed by?

[lsfreak]

You ONLY get epic feats when you have at least 20 class levels, not hit dice. The exception to this is dragons of at least Old age, which can take epic feats after reaching Old age.

[Douglas]

No, hit dice count. You can take epic feats when your character level is above 20, and racial hit dice do count towards that.

[sofawall]

No, hit dice count. You can take epic feats when your character level is above 20, and racial hit dice do count towards that.

I think you are wrong. Let me look for a quote.

Anyway, Dragons of at least Old Age (Typically assumed to mean 21 HD, but Dragonwrought Kobolds would like to disagree) cant take epic feats. Most RHD cannot. Dragons can.

EDIT: I am wrong. As long as you have one class level, you go epic at ECL 21.
Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060411a), near the very end. Second last paragraph.

[KillianHawkeye]

You are the DM. If you wanna replace their feats from 21+ HD with Epic Feats, go ahead. I won't stop you. :smallwink: