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Paganboy28
2009-08-24, 05:08 AM
So I have spoken to the DM and in his opinion the team as it is don't really require a druid.

We have an uber-fighter in the Marrusault.
We have a buffer in the Cleric.
We have a party face/rogue/back up in the Swashbucking/Chameleon/Rogue.

He says the party lacks a "blaster" style character.

I've always played blasters (warlocks, wizards, warmages, sorcerers, etc) and so the Artificer was an attempt to still keep magic but in a different sort of way.

The Druid seemed to also fit the bill as I have never played one and they can do spells as well as other nifty things.


What's the "blaster" potential for the Druid compared to the "blaster traditionals"????


What is a really good blaster class (or PrC) that gives me something different from the above?

I have also thought, maybe going the summoning route so that I summon minions to mush foes up, but then I can't seem to find a decent summoning focused PrC.

Saph
2009-08-24, 05:13 AM
Druids aren't good blasters. The traditional Druid way of doing damage is via melee attacks delivered by the druid, their companion, their summons, or all three at once.

Druids are however excellent summoners, so if you want a summoning character don't bother with PrC's, just use a single-classed Druid.

If you want a blaster the simplest and easiest to make effective is a Psion Kineticist, which you can find here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm). They do lots of damage to lots of targets using lots of different energy types, and they have a variety of backup powers to keep them safe and give them extra attack options.

kamikasei
2009-08-24, 05:13 AM
Druid doesn't have great blaster potential. Their schtick is more a) summoning beasties, b) buffing themselves and said beasties, and c) battlefield control via said summoned buffed beasties and various "standard" battlefield control spells.

If you want something that'll blast but be a bit different to what you've already played in that role, may I suggest a psion? A kineticist with Expanded Knowledge: Astral Construct will be able to summon for control/utility, and/or you could pick up some telepathy-based control powers too.

Grrr, ninjas lurks!

Saph
2009-08-24, 05:14 AM
*ninja-stabs Kamikasei*

The Mentalist
2009-08-24, 05:15 AM
For the summoning route you can't go wrong with the Malconvoker. I don't know much about blasting though so I can't advise there.

Gnorman
2009-08-24, 05:38 AM
For the summoning route you can't go wrong with the Malconvoker. I don't know much about blasting though so I can't advise there.

I fully support this, and I feel I should mention:

You're probably aware of the whole "blasters are suboptimal" tack, so I won't belabor the point. But you have a fighter and a rogue, they'll dish out the damage. Might I suggest battlefield control instead? Break the pace, try something new? A good battlefield controller here will concentrate on debuffing the enemy and locking it down with distractions, summons, and the aptly-entitled "kill zone". Conjuration, transmutation, and necromancy would be your go-to schools here, at least as a wizard.

Of course, you shouldn't you take my suggestion to heart if it's not what you want to play. But non-blaster wizards are powerful, full of variety, and most importantly, fun. If you're going down the summoning route (which I highly recommend, as summoners are my favorite archetype) a Malconvoker can be an extremely effective addition to the party, what with mounds of summons providing both tanking, damage, and useful SLAs. Plus, they're nowhere near as broken as some wizard PrCs (note that I said as broken - you're still a wizard). The Malconvoker is, hands down, my favorite PrC. It's well-designed, flavorful, and quite powerful, though rarely resorts to pure cheese to achieve results. Of course, I've been slogging through the class's fiendish repertoire like mad lately (At this point I'd wager that only Treantmonklvl20 has spent more time analyzing the class's potential) so I'm a bit biased. Planar Binding is a broken, broken line of spells, though - make sure your DM understands this.

Druids are still an excellent choice for the BC/summoning route - they do much better there than they do as blasters. Take Augment Summoning, of course, and also look into Ashbound (free extend, +3 attack bonus on all summons) or Greenbound (mighty powerful template) as feats to really amp up your beasties. Imbue Summoning will allow you to throw some nice buffs on them, including the always-overpowered Venomfire.

You have the Big Stupid Fighter. You have the Healbot. And you have the Gimp - I mean, the Glass Cannon. Play God. Whether a god in the shamanistic or hermetic tradition.

Kris Strife
2009-08-24, 06:05 AM
Course, if you wanna blast and do battlefield control, as well as a few other nifty abilities, theres DragonFlame Adept with Entangling Exhalation. Make your allies immune to your breath weapon with the Invocation Endure Exposure, grab Freezing Fog when its avalible, and of course, identify magic items for free and Geas as a standard action. :smallbiggrin:

Aotrs Commander
2009-08-24, 06:15 AM
Actually, if you have Spell Compendium or other non-core spells, Druids aren't too bad at blasting. Nowhere near as good as an arcanist, but much better than a cleric. However, they aren't great at this until mid-level, when you start to get things like Ice Flowers or Ice Lance.

But, it certainly is possible to have a spell-caster support druid rather than a shape-shifting melee or summoning one (I know, I've done it!) They get plenty of SoDs to (Drown, Extract Water Elemental for example), again at higher level. Okay, so it might be quite as optimal as shifting shananigans, but given as the druid is argueably the most powerful class in the game, playing it not to it's theoretical full potential is hardly damning...

If, however, you are limited to Core, it's not really a viable option as the Druid doesn't have that many damaging spells in Core.

Myou
2009-08-24, 08:09 AM
The party doesn't need a blaster. :smallyuk:

Eldariel
2009-08-24, 08:30 AM
Blaster is basically a casting archer, so it's a role many other characters in the party already handle. Feel free to prepare a Call Lightning for the Stormcrow-act, but mostly focus on summons, buffs and battlefield control as everyone has said. Note that Produce Flame is decent at low levels due to enabling multiple ranged touch attacks.

Overall, Druid's shtick as a "blaster" is that each blasty spell in their arsenal does more than just 1 boom. Most of their spells enable you to use the same spell for multiple rounds conserving ammo, and the ones that don't still stick around (e.g. Ice Storm), which means if you really want to blast, you can just prepare few spells geared towards the purpose while still maintaining your good versatility and real function (this is augmented by your spontaneous summons).

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-24, 09:15 AM
You don't need a blaster, you need to get a GOD.

Here's a good one for you. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0)

Person_Man
2009-08-24, 10:54 AM
If you want to go the undead route, there's a classic blaster/summoner combo:

1) Take the Lord of the Uttercold feat (Comp Arcane) which let's you change any energy spell into 50% Cold and 50% Negative Energy.

2) Take the Destructive Retribution feat (Libris Mortis). Now whenever an Undead you create is destroyed, it explodes in a small burst of Negative Energy.

3) Convince as many people in the party as possible to take the Tomb Tainted Soul feat (Libris Mortis), which allows you to be healed by Negative Energy (but harmed by Positive Energy). Also, buy items which grant Energy Resistance or Immunity to Cold (or take levels of Frostrager, which is healed by Cold).

Now summon a ton of weak Skeletons (immune to cold). Toss Uttercold Fireballs on top of them. Heal your friends, destroy your enemies, and provide a bunch of battlefield control via your minions.

Doc Roc
2009-08-24, 11:10 AM
In this situation, I'm going to argue in favor of a war weaver (http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:FQLO0BN1m1gJ:forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D1166718+war+weaver&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a)!

waterpenguin43
2009-08-24, 11:13 AM
To make a druid more blasting oriented, become a stormcaster (see stormwrack.)

Mando Knight
2009-08-24, 11:20 AM
He says the party lacks a "blaster" style character.

The party also lacks a battlefield controller. Guess which one is more versatile, and which one the Druid can fulfill.

That's right... control. You can blast by having armies of wolves hound your foes, or fire a couple of Ice Storms at them. You can control with Entangle, summoned armies, Rusting Grasp, Plant Growth, Baleful Polymorph...

Glyde
2009-08-24, 11:24 AM
Wu Jen have several excellent blasting spells, including Steam Breath - as far as I can tell that's the earliest 'cone' nuke you can grab. A sudden maximized steam breath while specializing in water can turn the tide of a fight right quick.

They might not be anything compared to well... any of the other classes, but their gimmick can be fun to roleplay (Taboos, Spell Secret) and their unique spells can be fun.

Oh, also they have Giant Size.

The Vorpal Tribble
2009-08-24, 11:26 AM
Gonna side with the Psion crowd. Every energy type known to Wizards, plus others. Mind Thrust/Psionic Blast that even bypasses almost all known damage reduction and requires Will saves instead of Fort/Ref.

Personally that's not my cup of tea, but with the right build you can get the energizer bunny out of them.

arguskos
2009-08-24, 11:30 AM
Wu Jen have several excellent blasting spells, including Steam Breath - as far as I can tell that's the earliest 'cone' nuke you can grab. A sudden maximized steam breath while specializing in water can turn the tide of a fight right quick.
Nitpick: Acid Breath is also level three and does comparable damage, but is acid damage. :smalltongue:

However, I'll generally agree that Wu Jen are pretty decent overall. :smallsmile:

Leon
2009-08-24, 11:44 AM
You're probably aware of the whole "blasters are suboptimal" tack, so I won't belabor the point.

a State of Optimal is only a issue of those that must subsist on it - the majority of the players I'd guess don't have the worry.

Sorcerer is a good blaster type with careful selection of spells (try to go for Force or Sonic Damage types as they are the least resisted types) and always have a selection of non blasty utility types that could be useful.

Doc Roc
2009-08-24, 12:02 PM
a State of Optimal is only a issue of those that must subsist on it - the majority of the players I'd guess don't have the worry.

Disagree strongly. Nothing sucks more than forcing your party to limp when they could run. I speak here as a GM, since that's what I am almost exclusively. Arcane\Divine blasting really works poorly because it exhausts resources forcing the pace of the adventure to slow down, can ruin any attempt at time pressure, and is generally unpleasant. I'm not sure what everyone has against casual optimization, particularly when we've suggested excellent ways of playing a blaster without gimping yourself. Now, if you are serious about this, there is a way to play a sorcerer blaster, but it can be something of an uphill battle.

arguskos
2009-08-24, 12:07 PM
Disagree strongly. Nothing sucks more than forcing your party to limp when they could run. I speak here as a GM, since that's what I am almost exclusively. Arcane\Divine blasting really works poorly because it exhausts resources forcing the pace of the adventure to slow down, can ruin any attempt at time pressure, and is generally unpleasant. I'm not sure what everyone has against casual optimization, particularly when we've suggested excellent ways of playing a blaster without gimping yourself. Now, if you are serious about this, there is a way to play a sorcerer blaster, but it can be something of an uphill battle.
While quite true, and something I tend to mention to my players as well, it can and frequently does get blown out of proportion. Arcane blasting CAN work, it's just not the BEST option. There are ways to do it decently enough to keep up with a decently put together party, it's just not the best way to contribute most of the time.

Given that 3.5 breaks if you sneeze at it too hard, it's easy to see where casual optimization is often looked down upon. Not everyone puts the effort into making the game optimized, but still unbroken and fun that you do, after all. (Note that I personally really admire your fire and drive in Test of Spite to keep things unbroken and fairly balanced-ish, so please, don't take anything I've said as an insult in any way.)

Wings of Peace
2009-08-24, 01:24 PM
Your game is anything goes till orb spells. Once you get orb spells stick with them. Your build should be something along the lines of Sorcerer 14/Arch-Mage 1(Mastery of Elements for ganking foes with weaknesses)/Tainted Scholar 2/Incarnate 3.

Take the tainted scholar as soon as you can. With those three levels of Incarnate plus a 1 feat investment you can invest 3 essentia into your Strongheart Vest soulmeld. This means the thing will reduce all con damage by 4 allowing you to apply all the big blasting meta-magics for free. Next take all the blasting meta-magics. Maximize, Empower, Twin, Quicken, Admixture, The pre-req for Admixture and Rapid Meta-magic. This is an 8 feat investment counting the feat for extra investment in Strongheart so talk to your dm about taking a flaw. If he doesnt allow it I'd lose Empower personally but some people would say maximize instead.

It's a bummer I realize to lose 9th level spells but we're making a blaster here and those meta-magics will keep you doing more than reasonable damage without them.

lsfreak
2009-08-24, 01:26 PM
Here's some of the more interesting options for blasty-casters that can also fill in other roles if they need to:

Nevermind on the warlock, you said you'd played it
- Dragonfire Adepts. Like warlocks but differentTM. Plenty of blasty, and when mixed with the breath weapon feats from Races of the Dragon, plenty of awesome. Provided they're focused on breath weapons, you can even tote around full plate and a tower shield and wade into melee.
- Binders. For one thing, they're both the single best fluff-based class and one of the only ones to actually pull it off without being gimped. They fill any role they need to, one being doing 4d6 from two gaze attacks every round. Go here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=784085) (cached version since gleemax is down) (http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:TACidqKZuqkJ:boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D784085+binder+handbook&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a) and search for the Direct Damage build to what to work up to. Two 2d6 damage attacks a round in an area without having to do anything plus other stuff.
- Eldariel's Arcane Archer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6154554&postcount=4) that he's posted a few times. Not recommended if your group looks at you funny for taking two classes and a prestige class. Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 1/Abjurant Champion 4+ and the last in Sacred Exorcist.

Paganboy28
2009-08-24, 01:52 PM
Whats the Dread Necromancer like at blasting/controlling?


I have to be level 8 (or equivalent of); Neutral or good alignment.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-24, 02:04 PM
Whats the Dread Necromancer like at blasting/controlling?


I have to be level 8 (or equivalent of); Neutral or good alignment.

Not very good. He's a Debuffer, not a blaster. Unless you use Destructive Retribution+Infested with Chickens to make Chicken Bombs...

Wings of Peace
2009-08-24, 02:11 PM
As a blaster I can't say I've heard good things. They get an aoe harm spell as I recall but that's about it and against undead that's not a lot of good. Battlefield control is a possibility but personally I think generic wizard or sorcerer could outdo them at that game too, as a de-buffer though they can be vicious.

Edit 1: *Gets ninjad by Sinfire Titan.* Darn you! Though good to see you around still. Over on the Wizards boards I'm Wings of Peace.

Edit 2: To the topic though if you want to battlefield control your main concern is saves largely. Lots of aoe spells have saves so anything that lets you pump those is good. Blasting wise I would say Meta-Magic is the big ace. Lots of low level spells like orbs can with enough meta-magic deal enough damage to floor a dragon and in the case of Orbs those spells don't offer SR which will be your bane. Even in aoe blasting enough meta-magic will easily boost spells to the point where higher levels matter only for the utility spells and buffs to keep yourself alive.

Doc Roc
2009-08-24, 02:14 PM
And please please don't do that.

Oh hey Wings, it's me, Doc Roc!

Wings of Peace
2009-08-24, 02:19 PM
Hey Doc. It's funny since I've seen you around here occasionally and that avatar always makes me think of your handbook.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-24, 02:23 PM
Edit 1: *Gets ninjad by Sinfire Titan.* Darn you! Though good to see you around still. Over on the Wizards boards I'm Wings of Peace.


I usually hang out on BG, but when on Gleemax I frequent the Classes, Psionics, Spells (lurk), and Equipment boards. But Gleemax is dead for the rest of the month, so it doesn't matter right now.


And please please don't do that.

Explosive Chickens? You don't like the Revenge of the Cuccos?

woodenbandman
2009-08-24, 02:34 PM
If blasting is what you desire, may I suggest a Wilder? Pick a bunch of double threat spells. Also, you should definitely look at either an Incarnate/Soul Manifester dip, or going the full way down.

Wild Surged Midnight Augmented Energy Stun = world of hurt + daze. Seriously, you can get (hell, toss in earth power) up to 10 points of free augmentation on a power with the right build, something like Wilder 15/Incarnate1(take Shape Soulmeld somewhere)/Soul Manifester4. Anarchic Initiate also looks good.

Some good "blast" powers are Energy Stun (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyStun.htm) (Been errata'd to 1d6/pp but only +1DC/2pp), Concussion Blast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/concussionBlast.htm) (no save is always good, and being a wilder you have much more damage potential), and, with some creative usage, Telekinetic Maneuver (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/telekineticManeuver.htm) (situationally dependent, but quite often you'll find someone is standing at the edge of a very large cliff, just asking to be pushed off, and you're only too happy to oblige)

Any number of Energy X power will work for you. Also there is a 9th level power in Complete Psionic that is basically a churning vortex of doom and negative levels that you control. Check that out.

Paganboy28
2009-08-24, 02:35 PM
A debuffer works for me. I like the idea of slowly draining a foe of abilities or life, whatever.

I want to avoid the blaster style if I can. Reflecting on what people have said I am now looking for debuffer/controller with a little bit of blaster perhaps.

How about muliticlassing as a Wizard/Druid and then going Arcane Heirophant?

Or...

Druid/Warmage

Druid/Sorcerer

Druid/Beguiler

Druid/Warlock

Druid/Dread Necromancer
Would that work?

Gnorman
2009-08-24, 02:46 PM
A debuffer works for me. I like the idea of slowly draining a foe of abilities or life, whatever.

I want to avoid the blaster style if I can. Reflecting on what people have said I am now looking for debuffer/controller with a little bit of blaster perhaps.

How about muliticlassing as a Wizard/Druid and then going Arcane Heirophant?

Or...

Druid/Warmage

Druid/Sorcerer

Druid/Beguiler

Druid/Warlock

Would that work?

I don't recommend it. You're really going to lag behind the rest of the group in power, and that's no fun. While your cleric buddy is tossing out level four spells (and almost ready to throw around level five), you'll be lucky to hit three. Go with a wizard, and keep Necromancy around for the life-draining flavor.

Paganboy28
2009-08-24, 02:54 PM
So the Arcane Heirophant isnt a good PrC then.

It seems good as it continues progression of Arcane and Druid class abilities.

Mongoose87
2009-08-24, 02:57 PM
So the Arcane Heirophant isnt a good PrC then.

It seems good as it continues progression of Arcane and Druid class abilities.

It's a situation where you end up having many low-level spells and nothing useful of high level.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-24, 02:58 PM
So the Arcane Heirophant isnt a good PrC then.

It seems good as it continues progression of Arcane and Druid class abilities.

It's a good class, but unless you are starting out above 10th it's rather low in power. Also, you want to enter it as soon as humanly possible.

Paganboy28
2009-08-24, 03:01 PM
I quite liked the idea of a Druid/Dread Necromancer/Arcane Heirophant concept.

Power over Life and Death sort of thing.

Oh well... back to the drawing board again.

Gnorman
2009-08-24, 03:17 PM
I quite liked the idea of a Druid/Dread Necromancer/Arcane Heirophant concept.

Power over Life and Death sort of thing.

Oh well... back to the drawing board again.

Look, if you want to play the Arcane Hierophant, we're not trying to stop you. We're just letting you know that there's going to be some issues with it. It's not a bad class. It's certainly better than the Mystic Theurge.

Paganboy28
2009-08-24, 03:23 PM
Look, if you want to play the Arcane Hierophant, we're not trying to stop you. We're just letting you know that there's going to be some issues with it. It's not a bad class. It's certainly better than the Mystic Theurge.


:) I know you're not trying to stop me and I appreciate all the advice. I just want to find something I will be:

a) happy playing
b) not be gimped with
c) have a role in the party
d) something different from the "point and blast" style of play that I have played since day 0.

Gnorman
2009-08-24, 03:36 PM
:) I know you're not trying to stop me and I appreciate all the advice. I just want to find something I will be:

a) happy playing
b) not be gimped with
c) have a role in the party
d) something different from the "point and blast" style of play that I have played since day 0.

Hypothetical progression: Conjurer (banning evocation and illusion) 3 / Master Specialist 2 / Malconvoker 5 / Mindbender 1 / MS +2 / Mal +4 / Paragnostic Disciple 3.

Summon fiendish beasties to ravage your foes, with all kinds of hefty buffs to make them worthwhile (automatically doubled, fast healing 5, crazy bonuses to attack/damage/HP). Communicate with them telepathically so your enemies can't predict what they're going to do. Bend the Lower Planes to your will. Make friends and influence demons. Be really, really, really smart. Keeping Necromancy and Enchantment around will give you plenty of options in the buffing/debuffing department, while banning Evocation will remove the temptation to blast (though you still can with the Orb line). The lack of illusion hurts somewhat, but you'll have enough summons walking around that you can hide behind them instead, and there are a lot of things you can summon with illusion spells to shore up the gap in your repertoire. When in doubt, toss off conjuration and transmutation spells like the minor deity you are. Despite all the dips and complex multiclassing, you only lose one caster level.

Hands down my favorite build, like, ever. The only thing I might alter is replace a level of Paragnostic Disciple with Archmage for Reach Spell.

Instead of "point and shoot," you're more of a military commander - you command legions and influence the conflict as a whole. You're more than just a piece of artillery - you're a freaking five star general.

Paganboy28
2009-08-24, 03:49 PM
Hypothetical progression: Conjurer (banning evocation and illusion) 3 / Master Specialist 2 / Malconvoker 5 / Mindbender 1 / MS +2 / Mal +4 / Paragnostic Disciple 3.

Why in this order?

MS 2 just adds another spell to your book.

Why not take Mal 6??

Gnorman
2009-08-24, 03:53 PM
Why in this order?

MS 2 just adds another spell to your book.

Why not take Mal 6??

Because you can't take Malconvoker until level 6 anyway. Might as well take the two levels of Master Specialist before it.

Way I see it, getting Infernal Legion is your number one priority. After that, Telepathy. Then you finish off the other classes. The order is fairly mutable, and Paragnostic Disciple's not even strictly necessary. I just like it. Heck, Telepathy isn't even that great for you (since you likely speak the necessary languages to begin with) - it's just a lot of fun.

Wings of Peace
2009-08-24, 06:16 PM
Chainspell will also be helpful if you go the debuff route since alot of great de-buff spells only affect a single target. I don't have the url on me but if you Google around there should be a list of SLs available via summoning and I think one for the Malconvoker. If any of them have auras (Not sure on that point) you're going to be the king of causing save failure via statistical probability.

Gnorman
2009-08-24, 06:44 PM
Chainspell will also be helpful if you go the debuff route since alot of great de-buff spells only affect a single target. I don't have the url on me but if you Google around there should be a list of SLs available via summoning and I think one for the Malconvoker. If any of them have auras (Not sure on that point) you're going to be the king of causing save failure via statistical probability.

Treantmonklvl20's Mastering the Malconvoker has SLAs organized by level, but it's on Gleemax, which is currently down. Cached version here (http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:c9d6WGnUjZ8J:forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D918792+mastering+the+malconvo ker&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us). After reading that, if you don't want to play a Malconvoker, I just don't know what to do with you here.

Mxyzplk did a nice series on his dwarven Malconvoker here (http://mxyzplk.wordpress.com/session-summaries/rise-of-the-runelords/valgrim-the-summoner/), full of great recommendations and cheat sheets for the class.

There's also this compendium of evil summons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119401), written by... well... me. Yeah. Told you, I really like the class. It's like being John Constantine.

fryplink
2009-08-24, 06:51 PM
a dragon shamans breath weapon (if you use the cone shape) is a decent blasting ability, no use-limit and the healing aura will let you take the stress off the cleric. A lot of stress, allowing him to make the game more fun for everyone.

if you want a spell caster a fire shugenja allows for some blasting ability while giving you breathing room to do other things, im a big fan of the air spells (but the other party member usually try to make me play a water shug when i play shug). if you take arcane heirphant (never seen it, im assuming its a less sucky variant of mystic theruge) shug multiclasses great with sor or favored soul lvls because they both operate on CHA which (if using point-buy) frees up valuable attribute points for other attributes. (i played a shug/sor theruge, since niether gain abilities after 1st lvl anyway)

Lycanthromancer
2009-08-24, 07:01 PM
According to my exhaustive research (see: reading the two class entries), dragonfire adept is 499.985% more awesome than the dragon disciple.

Leon
2009-08-25, 01:19 AM
Disagree strongly. Nothing sucks more than forcing your party to limp when they could run. I speak here as a GM, since that's what I am almost exclusively. Arcane\Divine blasting really works poorly because it exhausts resources forcing the pace of the adventure to slow down, can ruin any attempt at time pressure, and is generally unpleasant. I'm not sure what everyone has against casual optimization, particularly when we've suggested excellent ways of playing a blaster without gimping yourself. Now, if you are serious about this, there is a way to play a sorcerer blaster, but it can be something of an uphill battle.

I'm all for a good solid character but don't like the attitude on here of Don't go X is not optimal use Y (where y = the same boring list of Wizard/Druid/Etc)
Outside of these boards in the real world of people playing role play a Blasty PC is a perfectly good archetype for a person to play.

Doc Roc
2009-08-25, 01:29 AM
I'm all for a good solid character but don't like the attitude on here of Don't go X is not optimal use Y (where y = the same boring list of Wizard/Druid/Etc)
Outside of these boards in the real world of people playing role play a Blasty PC is a perfectly good archetype for a person to play.

Actually, having run a large number of games where many\most of my arcane players were blasters, I've found people to be pretty disappointed with the archetype. Sometimes, we optimize for Fun, rather than just optimizing for fun.

Now, psionic blasters are incredibly fun, and really cool. But....
I'm going to be a little bit gauche here, and mention that telling someone they represent a Ivory Tower niche is not the best way to articulate your lack of disdain. :smallbiggrin:

Gnorman
2009-08-25, 01:41 AM
I'm all for a good solid character but don't like the attitude on here of Don't go X is not optimal use Y (where y = the same boring list of Wizard/Druid/Etc)
Outside of these boards in the real world of people playing role play a Blasty PC is a perfectly good archetype for a person to play.

The OP said, and I quote:


I just want to find something I will be:

a) happy playing
b) not be gimped with
c) have a role in the party
d) something different from the "point and blast" style of play that I have played since day 0.

I know you're arguing in a general sense, but steering the OP away from a blaster seems to be exactly what he wants us to do. A Blaster might fulfill a) and c), maybe b), but it won't qualify for d).

And I'm rather happy here in my Ivory Tower, to be perfectly honest. I'll never cast an evocation spell with any character ever (barring Contingency or Shadow versions) and will be perfectly happy with it. It's not that it's just suboptimal - it's that it's completely inefficient. And remember, wizards are Smart. They'd know what's inefficient and what's not. Plinking away with Fireballs may be an iconic representation of what wizards do, but any arcanist worth his Headband of Intellect +4 knows that there are much easier ways to deal with your enemies - disable them so hard the room stinks, and then let your minio- err party members finish them off.

Wings of Peace
2009-08-25, 02:43 AM
The OP said, and I quote:



I know you're arguing in a general sense, but steering the OP away from a blaster seems to be exactly what he wants us to do. A Blaster might fulfill a) and c), maybe b), but it won't qualify for d).

And I'm rather happy here in my Ivory Tower, to be perfectly honest. I'll never cast an evocation spell with any character ever (barring Contingency or Shadow versions) and will be perfectly happy with it. It's not that it's just suboptimal - it's that it's completely inefficient. And remember, wizards are Smart. They'd know what's inefficient and what's not. Plinking away with Fireballs may be an iconic representation of what wizards do, but any arcanist worth his Headband of Intellect +4 knows that there are much easier ways to deal with your enemies - disable them so hard the room stinks, and then let your minio- err party members finish them off.

I fully agree but for the sake of representing both sides of the argument I think a big part of what makes blasters sub optimal is that as a blaster you're either too optimal or you're crap. If optimized thoroughly a good blaster can 1 hit most anything whether it be with single target spells or with AOEs. While one spell to potentially the encounter is about as efficient as it gets it's not going to be much fun though is it? I think that's the real crux of the blaster. Be average and pretty lame or be too good at what you're designed for and blow the world to smithereens. There really isn't much room for only blowing a person's head halfway off.

Cyclocone
2009-08-25, 02:45 AM
How about muliticlassing as a Wizard/Druid and then going Arcane Heirophant?

You could go venerable dragonwrought kobold Sorc 1/Druid 3/MT 6/AC 10 using kobold cheese to get 2nd level sorc spells.
You'll lose wild shape, but your casting is only one level behind a normal druid, and you could have full sorc casting (if your DM allows kobold cheese).

Doc Roc
2009-08-25, 02:52 AM
I fully agree but for the sake of representing both sides of the argument I think a big part of what makes blasters sub optimal is that as a blaster you're either too optimal or you're crap. If optimized thoroughly a good blaster can 1 hit most anything whether it be with single target spells or with AOEs. While one spell to potentially the encounter is about as efficient as it gets it's not going to be much fun though is it? I think that's the real crux of the blaster. Be average and pretty lame or be too good at what you're designed for and blow the world to smithereens. There really isn't much room for only blowing a person's head halfway off.

+1 cookie! This is particularly true in a system where there are no wound penalties, and the only hit point that matters is the one that means you can't keep fighting.

Paganboy28
2009-08-25, 03:15 AM
You could go venerable dragonwrought kobold Sorc 1/Druid 3/MT 6/AC 10 using kobold cheese to get 2nd level sorc spells.
You'll lose wild shape, but your casting is only one level behind a normal druid, and you could have full sorc casting (if your DM allows kobold cheese).

Can't go Kobold as they are classified as evil in the campaign, hence I have to be neutral or good.


I am going to ask the DM if the arcane heirophant with Dread Necromancer will continue to advance both the druid and the DN at the same time (not just casting progression but ability progression as well).

If not then I might got the Malconvoker route.

Wings of Peace
2009-08-25, 03:18 AM
rory calhoon
+1 cookie! This is particularly true in a system where there are no wound penalties, and the only hit point that matters is the one that means you can't keep fighting.

Woo! I will always remember today as the day I received my first cookie. *Omnomnoms the cookie's heart absorbing its powers.*

Paganboy28
2009-08-25, 11:11 AM
OK , so the DM said no to the Dread Necromancer and Druid combo.

The Arcane Heirophant still seems funky, though reading through the Malconvoker I quite like the idea of having summoned minions to do my bidding.

I am torn between the two...

Druid/Wizard/Arcane Heirophant would have a lot of options as well as being able to summon, do a bit of blasting, and also control the battlefield with minions and spells. Not to mention the combat option of Wild Shape if needed.

Plus the eventual prospect of having 9th level spells on both Wizard and Druid is also appealing.

I assume Wiz 3/Druid 3/ArcHeir10/MT4 is the most obvious route to get to 17th caster level with both wizard and druid?

Possibly using Practiced Spellcaster one at least one side to bump caster level to 20th.

How would the Druid/Wu Jen combo compare to a Druid/Wizard?


Are there any other arcane classes that would be a good combo (the others I have seen need level 4 before getting 2nd level spells and so not optimal)?

Also are there any arcane casters that use Wisdom as their stat? I don't know any but you never know...



The Malconvoker is good but I have this feeling in the back in my head that it gives the DM too much chance and opportunity to send big ole fiends to get revenge. The idea of summoning minions to do my bidding is appealling though....

Leon
2009-08-25, 11:12 AM
Bah, Forget it
Had i long retort for this but really i cant be arsed with getting into the silly optimal thing again.
It just gets annoying to me every time the "suboptimal" blurb is placed on something - you may find it so but let others try things before they judge.

In Response to the OP - you want play a Druid, then play a druid.
For summoning the Half Orc Sub class is decent as it gives you Augment Summons as a class feature

Another idea could be Archivist X/Malconvoker
Then learn the Druid summons for greater range
The Conjuration Variant Wizard in the SRD is a good pick for a focused Summoner as it lowers the spell cast to a standard action

Druids also do Control fairly well (pending terrain in some cases)

Paganboy28
2009-08-25, 03:08 PM
If allowed by the DM...

In theory, what would the potential of a Warlock/Druid/Arcane Heirophant be?

Would that be a good combination?

If I can get the DM to agree that the MT also continues progression of Warlock invocations and EB.


Concept is a fey-born/taught druid.

EDIT: Maybe a Jaebrin (+1LA though...) or Killoren would fit.

Doc Roc
2009-08-25, 03:14 PM
I personally would favor the archivist+malconvoker, except that they can be a hassle to run. Warlocks are hard to build, and place specific demands on you as a player and as a character designer.

Would you like me to mock-up some builds for you?

@Leon: I'd be utterly delighted if it never came up again.

Paganboy28
2009-08-25, 03:16 PM
I personally would favor the archivist+malconvoker, except that they can be a hassle to run. Warlocks are hard to build, and place specific demands on you as a player and as a character designer.

Would you like me to mock-up some builds for you?


Sure if you don't mind. The Arcane Heirophant sounds most likely at the moment.... the DM's maniacal laughter at me suggesting a Malconvoker worries me.

9mm
2009-08-25, 03:24 PM
Here's some of the more interesting options for blasty-casters that can also fill in other roles if they need to:

Nevermind on the warlock, you said you'd played it
- Dragonfire Adepts. Like warlocks but differentTM. Plenty of blasty, and when mixed with the breath weapon feats from Races of the Dragon, plenty of awesome. Provided they're focused on breath weapons, you can even tote around full plate and a tower shield and wade into melee.


Just remember that meta-breath requires a cool-down that dragonfire adepts DON'T HAVE.

lsfreak
2009-08-25, 04:27 PM
Just remember that meta-breath requires a cool-down that dragonfire adepts DON'T HAVE.
Right, not metabreath, but breath channeling. Entangling exhalation is better than almost all the metabreath feats anywho.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-25, 04:30 PM
Just remember that meta-breath requires a cool-down that dragonfire adepts DON'T HAVE.

Entangling Exhalation isn't a Metabreath feat.

MichielHagen
2009-08-26, 10:32 AM
I just want to suggest the option of an Ultimate Magus.

Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4 / Ultimate Magus x

You have the Enchantment/Illusion spells of the Beguiler.
You can be a Focused Specialist on the wizard side (Evoker if you want blasting, otherwise i suggest Conjurer or Transmuter. Maybe Necromancer for flavor reasons).
Take Practised Spellcaster (for the Beguiler side) to only lose 1 caster level on the Wizard side
You lose the 2nd Wizard caster level when you reach 12th level (Ultimate Magus 7), until then it's just one level, so you don't lose much power.

I believe it has more "power" than most other double progressing prc's, mostly because it uses INT on both sides and doesnt lose a 2nd caster level until level 12. The beguiler has a nice skillset, you may want to take Able Learner if you are human to take full advantage of it.

I thought i'd suggest it since you seem to like a combination of different spellcasting types. This could be quite a different blaster than the standard ones.