[3.5] Sorcerlator Help

[Burley]

I've recently joined a 3.5 group, after playing only 4e since it's release. The campaign setting is Dawnforge, so if anybody with knowledge can help me pick a race, that'd be helpful.

Basically, I need a sorcerer. I'm shooting for a chaotic/neutral good character, so, necromancy and a lot of evocation are out.
The character will be 9th level, and it's been suggested (but not strongly) that I investigate the PHB2 sorceror alternate class feature.

So, what spells and feats should I consider? Opinioins on the alt-feature?

[Myou]

Necromany and Evocation spells are not innately aligned. Only spells with the [Alignment] descriptor after their spell school affect yor alignment.

[Tempest Fennac]

It depends on which variant you mean (I know of 1 variant which trades the Familiar for the ability to apply Metamagics as a standard action rather then a full round action). If you want to avoid blasting, Haste may be a good choice, and battlefield controls like Grease and Solid Fog can help your allies. (What other characters are involved in the game?)

[UserClone]

I'm going to have to go with Doppelganger. Very versatile, and nets you lots of Charisma. :smallwink:

[lsfreak]

Just to point out, Myou is basically right unless you're playing exalted-level good. You're also just as likely likely to have problems with Enchantment spells as evoc/necro. Chaotic characters are all about doing what they want, when they want, which Enchantment's entire school violates horribly. Imagine modern low-government supporters (libertarian/anarchist/whatever) talking about the freedom of the individual, and then mindraping people into thinking the same. That's just as conflicted as a good character sucking life energies out of people.
/smallrant

[Burley]

Yeah, yeah. I know that they aren't usually inherently aligned. But, in the party I'll be joining, which is a mix of all chaotic neutrals (bordering on evil as far as I've seen) I want to realling hit home with effective without being destructive.

The party has a the Dawnforge equivelant of a Cleric and a Favored Soul, as well as a Wizard, who from what I've seen has Summon Spells, Haste and a lot of controlly stuff. As much as I'd love to be useful I'd hate to step on his toes... (I've only seen him in action one session, though. I don't know his whole spell book.)

Doppleganger is a great choice idea. One that escaped my original thought, but the best in my mind. Any specific traits or transformations that would help there?

This may be the perfect opportunity to play a Master of Masks. Though... I'd lose caster levels to it...
Prestige classes?

[UserClone]

I like the talents/transformations that increase your ability to shapeshift, personally.

[Burley]

I like the talents/transformations that increase your ability to shapeshift, personally.

I dunno... I just find them to be rather weak and unfulfilling. I mean, you wait two levels to look like one new person? Meh... Tres Meh.
The monstrous humanoid transformation is kind-of okay, but I don't know if feats that take advantage of it would be allowed.
I'm definitely thinking Doppleganger, though.

Edit: Can anybody get me a link to a Sorcerer Handbook on the Playground forums? Preferably not one that is actually a snark thread?

[Mushroom Ninja]

Here it is in all of its black-magey goodness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4050553)

[Doc Roc]

I also maintain a sorcerer's guide, but it's on gleemax which is currently down. Let me see if google has it cached.

[Burley]

I like the talents/transformations that increase your ability to shapeshift, personally.

Wait.... FlWiPig... You may just be a mad genious. If you take an alternate form, there is a trait or transformation that gives you one of the racial features of that race while in that form, yes? Like, if I took Dawn Elf I could get the spell immunity, yes? Spell Immunity to say... Anti-Magic Field?

[UserClone]

Nope. Has to be something that involves a skill bonus or an attack bonus.
Why not just be a Dawn Elf?

[Flickerdart]

Human is always a good race for a Sorcerer. In terms of spells, you'll want ones that can apply to a broad range of things and that you'll want to use often. Such as, say, Shadow Conjuration.

[arguskos]

I'm not much help here, but what is Dawnforge, and where can I get a copy? Preferably, free and in PDF form.

[Burley]

Because... I dunno... I like the idea of being a Doppleganger Sorcerer, who pretends to be a Dawn Elf Wizard. He carries a massive tome around, but the pages of the book are one solid mass with Explosive Runes inside.

I need to look over the Dopple again. I wish I had me books...

[Doc Roc]

The ECL of a doppleganger makes them completely unplayable, unless you're using a version I don't know about.

Try a changeling PrCed into Recaster instead. They're fantastic! Or try a war weaver.

[Tokiko Mima]

You're nearly always going to be better off with a Changeling than a Doppleganger. Dopplegangers have 4 Racial HD, and +4 LA. Changlings have 0 of each of those. If you want all the best parts of Doppleganger, grab 5 levels of the Cabinet Trickster PrC (Races of Eberron) and you'll have Detect Thoughts at will, full Shape Change (as a normal Doppleganger) and you'll even have tricks that make the Detect Thoughts worthwhile to use. And you end up saving yourself 3 levels of Saves, skill bonuses, and you'll even keep your racial skill bonuses. The only thing that the Changeling/Cabinet Trickster loses out on is the +2 ability bonuses.

[UserClone]

We're talking the Dawnforge version here. All the races therein are ECL 0, with respect to each other, gaining their racial abilities along the course of their first...what, 10 levels, I think?

[arguskos]

We're talking the Dawnforge version here. All the races therein are ECL 0, with respect to each other, gaining their racial abilities along the course of their first...what, 10 levels, I think?
I already asked this, but where can I find Dawnforge?

[Burley]

Dawnforge is a third party campaign setting, with full racial rewrites and rewrites for the Cleric, Favored Soul, Druid and Monk.
The main jist is that the world is extremely young, so young, in fact, that many elves (long-living but mortal) remember when the world was created and they were punted into the material plane, much to their chagrin.

There are no dieties in this world, rather powerful "Immortals" who are each grasping for power and gathering followers. These "Immortals" will later become the Gods we know in the "present D&D." An example is an Immortal named Lothail, who leads semi-terrorist, certainly evil Night Elfs (ancestors of Drow). She later becomes Lolth.

Because there are no real gods, the 4 previously mentioned classes (which all have a very divine feel) have been completely banned and redone, using the abstracts essense of the world as a powersource. Sometimes, its a win, sometimes its a lose.

The races are the shining point in the setting, in my opinion. 5 different elves, 4 different humans, halflings, gnomes, minotaurs, yuan-ti thinbloods, ogres, orcs, lizardfolk and more are all playable characters. More powerful than Core, but balanced extremely well against each other. At each even and odd level you gain a special racial transformation or racial trait, respectively, from 1st through 10th. These are very similar to feats reserved for your race, but add so much more customization that it sometimes hurts my bla.....

[ericgrau]

Avoid similar/redundant spells. You'll probably want lots of (different) battlefield control spells: i.e., at least 1 barrier, at least one AoE save-or-suck, etc. Get multiple uber non +X buffs like haste and greater invisibility. Note that invisibility has a far longer duration, so you might want both even though on the surface they seem similar. Add on a good single target direct damage spell like scorching ray, a good AoE damage spell like fireball or lightning bolt. Maybe a single target save-or-lose, though you can often heighten an AoE save-or-suck to do even better. You have a ton of spell slots as a sorc, so consider using your low level slots for long duration buffs like protection from energy, heroism, greater magic weapon, etc. You'll still have plenty of mid-high level slots for combat. Avoid short duration +X buffs unless you can reliably count on more than 1 buffing round; even then I'd only focus on 1 or maaaybe 2 to be the one you use, and only after you cast the better non +X buffs.

Spontaneous metamagic is a sorc's friend. Like heighten, empower and extend spell. Consider lesser metamagic rods instead if you only need the feat for low level spells.

Otherwise the strat for item selection and other things is pretty similar to a wizard.

I played a sorc that worked out extremely well because of the sorc's extreme versatility when using a general-purpose spell list. Much more than the party wizard in fact. Here's the spell list I used, just as an example:



Level Name
0 Message
Read Magic
Detect Poison
Detect Magic
Open/Close
Light
Mage Hand
Mending
Prestidigitation
1 Mage Armor
Shield
Feather Fall
Alarm
Benign Transportation (SC)
2 False Life*
Invisibility
Melf’s Acid Arrow ^
Glitterdust*
Baleful Transportation (SC) ^
3 Invisibility Sphere ^
Shrink Item: on a rotating (caster level) cycle so (caster
level) items were always affected. Good for
carrying several large objects from the PH
equipment table.
Fireball
Protection from Energy
4 Dimension Door
Solid Fog*
Otiluke’s Resilent Sphere*
Greater Invisibility*
5 Stoneskin*
Wall of Stone*
Wall of Force
6 Mass Bear’s Endurance
Veil
7 Brilliant Aura* (SC)
^ = This is one of the few spells that didn't turn out to be that useful.
Practically every single spell besides those three saw frequent use.
I also regret not having dispel magic, especially to remove my on solid
fogs (they're not dismissable). Haste is missing b/c the party
wizard liked to cast it.
* = Favorites. You can burn higher level spells known/per day to fuel
4th level slots if needed, heh. And, yes, stoneskin is a
4th level spell.

He had a ton of cheap utility scrolls as well. About every session I
used 1 of those, and it was always completely different and
unpredictable. Money well spent: It didn't take much gp and he was
always prepared for the strangest things.

[Burley]

The biggest problem is that I can't use scrolls. See, the Doppleganger, while cool in many ways, if incapable of reading. Ever.

[Doc Roc]

I..... what? That must make certain impersonations impossible.

[ericgrau]

The biggest problem is that I can't use scrolls. See, the Doppleganger, while cool in many ways, if incapable of reading. Ever.

Everything else still applies and still is plenty to be versatile in most situations. Scrolls are secondary. If you still want to be ready for strange occurrences, then wands, potions and certain expendable wondrous items can help. The potions and wondrous items just cost double and partially limit your options, that's all.

[sofawall]

Here it is in all of its black-magey goodness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4050553)

This one is more recent. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2180.0)

[UserClone]

The biggest problem is that I can't use scrolls. See, the Doppleganger, while cool in many ways, if incapable of reading. Ever.

...Really? can I get a page number on that? I don't remember reading that bit...

[Burley]

Its in the racial features. They are illiterate and can never learn to read. They have some unique brain physiology that makes it impossible. I think sometimes you can make a forgery check to copy something down that you saw, but... That doesn't mean you understand it.


Anyway, I've been informed that I'm allowed to take any changeling feats from the Eberron books, so are any in there that increase DCs or something useful?
As an addition to that, I'll definately be taking Alter Self as a spell. Dopplegangers get a racial transformation that makes them Monstrous Humanoid (shapechanger), instead of just Humanoid (shapechanger). Are there any... ~broken~ monstrous humanoids that I could look into for this? I see Centaurs and Harpys, but other than movement type and speed, I don't know what I can get from it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Don't forget to grab the feat Duo-Wand for Hurt and Burn...

oh, wait... not that kind of Sorcelator... :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, Changelings are better than Dopplegangers. They also count as Humans for purposes of feats, which means Able Learner and a couple other goodies. They also qualify for the Recaster, which is crack on steroids for sorcerers. This gives you spells not normally on your caster list as spells known.

The ACF is, in every way, superior to having a Familiar until the time when you can get Imbue Familiar with Spell-Like Ability. If you don't feel like using that kind of cheese, it's superior in every way.

If you do want to use Familiars as More Dakka, then you have two choices: 1) Take the ACF and pick up the feat that gives you a familiar, or 2) Pick up the feat Rapid Metamagic (obtainable at level 9) which does the same thing as the ACF, only an unlimited number of times. Either way, you are blowing a feat, but it's generally worth it.

[UserClone]

I don't think everyone in this thread understands, so I will point it out a third time:

Changelings do not exist in Dawnforge. The Doppelganger as presented in Dawnforge is LA +0, like all the other races in Dawnforge. And one last time for emphasis: DAWNFORGE (http://www.amazon.com/Dawnforge-Various/dp/1589941241).

[Burley]

I don't think everyone in this thread understands, so I will point it out a third time:

Changelings do not exist in Dawnforge. The Doppelganger as presented in Dawnforge is LA +0, like all the other races in Dawnforge. And one last time for emphasis: DAWNFORGE (http://www.amazon.com/Dawnforge-Various/dp/1589941241).

Exactly. Thank you. Changelings are distant descendants of Doppelgangers. Changelings don't exist.
I am allowed to use feats that are Changeling only, though.
By the way, what book is Rapid Metamagic in?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Exactly. Thank you. Changelings are distant descendants of Doppelgangers. Changelings don't exist.
I am allowed to use feats that are Changeling only, though.
By the way, what book is Rapid Metamagic in?

Too bad, Recaster is tasty good. Maybe ask the GM politely if it would be possible?

Rapid Metamagic is found in Complete Mage, page 46. Handy for any spontaneous caster who wants to take advantage of Metamagic

[UserClone]

PHB II, if I recall correctly.

Apparently, I don't.

[Burley]

Okay. So, since I'll be starting at 9th level, I may as well get the better end of the deal and take the feat over the ACF.

I've already decided that I'm going to take the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil prestige class. Though I've not read incredibly in-depth, I understand it to be an extremely strong class that isn't completely broken. (Though it can be.) This choice has already been approved by the DM, and he suggested the seven veils from the Magic Item Compendium, alluding that I may get some of them for free!

[UserClone]

Just bear in mind that the prerequisites for that class are steeper for a Sorcerer, since you have precious few spells known, so your main focus will likely become protection.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Just bear in mind that the prerequisites for that class are steeper for a Sorcerer, since you have precious few spells known, so your main focus will likely become protection.

Also extremely feat-intensive. You may need to be Human for the bonus racial feat to qualify.

[Burley]

Hm... I guess I'll need to study the class some more. Are any of the prerequisites dead feats? Would this be a focues class or a gimped class?

Is Recaster a better prestige class? I can probably take it... What's the point of the class? Sell me.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hm... I guess I'll need to study the class some more. Are any of the prerequisites dead feats? Would this be a focues class or a gimped class?

Is Recaster a better prestige class? I can probably take it... What's the point of the class? Sell me.

Recaster lets you pick spells and add them to your spell list. Any spells. Like Heal or Divine Power. You may want delayed entry due to the level of spell you can add is dependent on highest level spell you can cast. It's only a 5 level PrC, so theoretically you could take both it AND Iot7V

Iot7V requres three 'dead' feats. Spell Focus (Abjuration), Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration) and Skill Focus (Spellcraft). Plus you need to be able to cast at least 5 Abjuration spells, including *TWO* of 4th level of higher. So you aren't getting into it before 10th level as a Sorcerer.

Recaster simply requires 3rd level casting, some skills, and any two Metamagic Feats. So entry is simple by level 6.

Recaster looses one caster level... at 1st level of the 5 level PRC. However, you get the following:

* Effectively Eschew Materials feat, plus 1/day Still/Silent Spell without level adjustment
* 3/day auto-quicken without any level adjustment, although duration is decreased to 1 round
* 5/day re-shaping your area effects
* Bonus Spells Known *FROM ANY SPELL LIST*

[Burley]

Recaster lets you pick spells and add them to your spell list. Any spells. Like Heal or Divine Power. You may want delayed entry due to the level of spell you can add is dependent on highest level spell you can cast. It's only a 5 level PrC, so theoretically you could take both it AND Iot7V

Iot7V requres three 'dead' feats. Spell Focus (Abjuration), Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration) and Skill Focus (Spellcraft). Plus you need to be able to cast at least 5 Abjuration spells, including *TWO* of 4th level of higher. So you aren't getting into it before 10th level as a Sorcerer.

Recaster simply requires 3rd level casting, some skills, and any two Metamagic Feats. So entry is simple by level 6.

Recaster looses one caster level... at 1st level of the 5 level PRC. However, you get the following:

* Effectively Eschew Materials feat, plus 1/day Still/Silent Spell without level adjustment
* 3/day auto-quicken without any level adjustment, although duration is decreased to 1 round
* 5/day re-shaping your area effects
* Bonus Spells Known *FROM ANY SPELL LIST*

Hm... Recaster could be interesting. It would definitely blow my cover, though. I'm to sorta spy on the group for the 'good guys'...
Also, is it that bad that I'd have a bunch of Abjuration spells? Some of them are freakishly nice. I mean, I'll definitely take Stoneskin. I'm sure there are some non-core spells that are worth taking, as well. Between Dispel Magic(!), Mage Armor/Shield and Explosive Runes, Abjuration won't be a problem. Dispellin' will be a handy trick to have, too, that with all the feats and spellcraft ranks and junk.

[UserClone]

It's absolutely doable (although mage armor is conjuration), but highly specialized. For every abjuration you take, that's one less illusion (invisibility), conjuration (solid fog), enchantment (suggestion), or otherwise specifically-helpful-to-spying spell. That being said, the veils are NICE, and the class (and of course the magic item set) is powerful, and flavorful.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hm... Recaster could be interesting. It would definitely blow my cover, though. I'm to sorta spy on the group for the 'good guys'...
Also, is it that bad that I'd have a bunch of Abjuration spells? Some of them are freakishly nice. I mean, I'll definitely take Stoneskin. I'm sure there are some non-core spells that are worth taking, as well. Between Dispel Magic(!), Mage Armor/Shield and Explosive Runes, Abjuration won't be a problem. Dispellin' will be a handy trick to have, too, that with all the feats and spellcraft ranks and junk.

You require TWO Abjuration spells of 4th or higher. That's the killer. Well, that and the three worthless feats.

Also, Stoneskin is a HUGE trap for Sorcerers due to Material Cost. If you are using it enough to be worth having as a Spell Known, it's going to drain your bank account dry.

Granted, there ARE some good Abjuration spells, I'm not saying there aren't (Shield and Dispel Magic being good ones), but being locked into 2 4th level spells (or even further delayed entry) being Abjuration is... weak. Particularly when 4th also has Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Confusion, Shadow Conjuration, Enervation, Fear, and Polymorph. It just... doesn't stack up.

Now, if you are willing to further delay entry, you might go with Dimensional Anchor and and Greater Dispel Magic, but that would be 12th level entry at minimum, which means barely squeezing in all seven levels before epic.

Also, I fail to see how Recaster would 'blow your cover'. If anything, it would be the opposite.

[Burley]

I think it would blow my cover. The group is frightfully aware of certain prestige classes. And, as per the deal my DM and I have worked out, he'll keep my secret from the group (IC and OOC), if I play plot-device at a specified time. I'm considering him never speaking Common, just to mess with the group. I mean, his main alternate form is Ghost Elf, and they only know Elven automatically. He'll know common, but pretend not to. Also, Russian Accent.

Also, can't I retrain spells like... every level after fourth? Once I gain a higher level slot, I'll retrain. Io7V is full-progression, yeah? Easy.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I think it would blow my cover. The group is frightfully aware of certain prestige classes. And, as per the deal my DM and I have worked out, he'll keep my secret from the group (IC and OOC), if I play plot-device at a specified time. I'm considering him never speaking Common, just to mess with the group. I mean, his main alternate form is Ghost Elf, and they only know Elven automatically. He'll know common, but pretend not to. Also, Russian Accent.

Also, can't I retrain spells like... every level after fourth? Once I gain a higher level slot, I'll retrain. Io7V is full-progression, yeah? Easy.Just lie about what PrC you are. Say it's a really good meatmagic class, like, say Incantrix, but the DM is only allowing you to take it with a sizable nerf.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think it would blow my cover. The group is frightfully aware of certain prestige classes. And, as per the deal my DM and I have worked out, he'll keep my secret from the group (IC and OOC), if I play plot-device at a specified time. I'm considering him never speaking Common, just to mess with the group. I mean, his main alternate form is Ghost Elf, and they only know Elven automatically. He'll know common, but pretend not to. Also, Russian Accent.

Also, can't I retrain spells like... every level after fourth? Once I gain a higher level slot, I'll retrain. Io7V is full-progression, yeah? Easy.

You can re-train *ONE* spell every other level after 4th, and if you don't meet prerequsites, you'll still be unable to enjoy the benefits of the PrC. So if you don't have at least 2 spells of 4th or higher, ALL your Iot7V features vanish. Including spellcasting progression...

Besides, there's a word for being able to identify what your character is through OOC knowledge... it's called Metagaming. Also known as Cheating. Unless the characters are able to, say, make a DC 35 Knowledge (Arcana) check to realize that what you just used was, in fact, a Recaster class ability rather than simply Rapid Metamagic + appropriate metamagic feats.

[UserClone]

Just lie about what PrC you are. Say it's a really good meatmagic class, like, say Incantrix, but the DM is only allowing you to take it with a sizable nerf.

...a meatmatgic class? *shiver* That sounds terrifying.

[Leon]

...a meatmatgic class? *shiver* That sounds terrifying.

See if you can wiggle in the Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep for metamagic fun




Yes, I'm aware that its not a Published PrC and was made for the computer game by Obsidian

[UserClone]

See if you can wiggle in the Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep for metamagic fun




Yes, I'm aware that its not a Published PrC and was made for the computer game by Obsidian

...I think you may have missed my point.:smallconfused:

[Leon]

...I think you may have missed my point.:smallconfused:

you point has nothing to do with mine except that they both are to do with metamagic

My point initially was going to be off topic with a question reagrd ing the prc that i mentioned - i got my answer while looking it up myself

[Burley]

you point has nothing to do with mine except that they both are to do with metamagic

My point initially was going to be off topic with a question reagrd ing the prc that i mentioned - i got my answer while looking it up myself

Actually, his point didn't have anything to do with metamagic. It had to do with Meatmagics. Steak Sorcerery. Innards Invocations. Carnivorous Castings.

[UserClone]

Thank you Burley.

[Doc Roc]

Man, your avatar's quizzical expression just keeps getting more and more apropos.

[UserClone]

I'm not sure what you mean by that, actually.

Or do you just mean the way I may have been looking at the monitor when I pointed out the meatmagic and someone started talking about metamagic?

[Leon]

Hmm, didn't see it as that.
Oh well.


Meatmagic = Pork Futures