No more Snarl?

[Winterwind]

A thought just randomly struck me, and as a brief search did not reveal it had been brought up before (if it has, my apologies; I do not frequent this sub-forum very often), I thought I'd post it to see what you think about it...

The Crayons of Time strips are only the - potentially incorrect - results of the Order of the Scribble's research about the nature of the Snarl, handed down over many years (and perhaps distorted in the process). If the Order of the Scribble misunderstood something about the Snarl, or what they found out passed to the Sapphire Guard in flawed form, they could contain elements that are completely wrong.

Specifically, they claim the previous world was destroyed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html) by the Snarl, and the gods then created world 2.0. They also imply the Snarl used to lurk just behind the rifts, ready to strike out as soon as something approached them.

And then we have #672, with Blackwing seeing this world beyond the rift... and no Snarl.

The thought this is the world thought to have been destroyed is obvious, and has been brought up before, too. And it is possible the Snarl is not lurking behind the rifts anymore because it cannot perceive them, as long as at least one gate remains.

However, the Snarl, being allegedly a being of pure chaos and destruction, should not let a planet exist in its own domain. And while the above might explain why the Snarl was not seen by Blackwing, there might be another explanation...

What if the knowledge of the Order of the Scribble concerning the Snarl was imperfect? What if having been sealed behind these gates/time/some other factor (possibly related with the world that has been destroyed or the Order of the Scribble's heroics) changed the nature of the Snarl, and the Snarl no longer exists in the form it used to?

What if the Snarl, confined to this limited space with no more holes to try to escape through, imprinted with the world it had devoured, curled up like a ball of wool... and then, over years, transformed into the world Blackwing saw?

[Lord Loss]

Winterwind, you're a genius! I think you just figured something hugely important out... you're not a detective, are you? I seriously think this might be right!!!

[Ancalagon]

Winterwind, you're a genius! I think you just figured something hugely important out... you're not a detective, are you? I seriously think this might be right!!!

Serious or sarcasm?

Anyway, the theory isn't quite new and was widely discussed, I think it's a very good one, but if that or something else is true... remains to be seen.

[Grey Knight]

Oh, it was? Drat! And here I thought I was being clever (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6786198#post6786198) as well... Maybe I should just leave the speculating to others! :smallsmile:

[David Argall]

At this point, all is speculation.

We know there was a Snarl and that it was active thru the rifts, apparently after having been locked out for over a thousand years. It has been inactive for a little over 50 years, which should seem like a couple of months to it. Everything dies or changes eventually, but it's kinda odd to have it happen right then.
There are just a zillion possible choices here.

[Elfin]

Agreed. There's not much that will be achieved by creating theories until we know more.

[Grey Knight]

There are just a zillion possible choices here.

And, on giantitp.com, that means... spool upon spool of threads full of speculative discussion! :smallbiggrin:

Personally I think :mitd: is Roy's suppressed frustration with Elan, given flesh.

[Lord Loss]

I'm serious. I think it's correct! Cookies to Winterwind!

[Lord Loss]

Also.. what happened to all those dudes thrown through the rift?

[Optimystik]

What if the knowledge of the Order of the Scribble concerning the Snarl was imperfect? What if having been sealed behind these gates/time/some other factor (possibly related with the world that has been destroyed or the Order of the Scribble's heroics) changed the nature of the Snarl, and the Snarl no longer exists in the form it used to?

This isn't much of a topic; it's fair to say at this point that EVERYONE'S knowledge of the Snarl is imperfect. What we do know is that the Scribble's experiences with it during their adventuring days were accurate. Soon saw both his wife and presumably his teammate slain by the thing firsthand, and passed on that knowledge to Shojo; he may have omitted bits, but would not lie. Lirian also referred to the Snarl explicitly, outside of a flashback.

The Snarl could have (and almost certainly has) changed in some way since then, but it is just too early to say what that truly means.

[Berserk Monk]

No snarl for you!

[Acero]

the snarl got so bored in his prison, he created a mirror world where everyone has moustaches, unless you have one in the real world

[The Vorpal Tribble]

the snarl got so bored in his prison, he created a mirror world where everyone has moustaches, unless you have one in the real world
What about those of us who routinely changes their facial hair, or shaves it, every other week?

[[TS] Shadow]

This is an interesting point, but there is a problem with that. The information found in the Crayons of Time strips were passed down, true, but from Soon himself, a paladin. And because he's a paladin, he can't lie, and so the appearance of the Snarl killing his wife is a contradiction to the fact that there might not be a Snarl.

However, at this point in the story, there aren't SUPPOSED to be answers, only questions. We will learn in time.

[Berserk Monk]

the snarl got so bored in his prison, he created a mirror world where everyone has moustaches, unless you have one in the real world

An entire world with chicks who have mustaches?:smalleek:

[Optimystik]

Shadow;6788479']This is an interesting point, but there is a problem with that. The information found in the Crayons of Time strips were passed down, true, but from Soon himself, a paladin. And because he's a paladin, he can't lie, and so the appearance of the Snarl killing his wife is a contradiction to the fact that there might not be a Snarl.

That's the source of confusion, yes. Soon saw what he saw, but the Snarl may/must have changed since then.

[Cerrakoth]

Shadow;6788479']This is an interesting point, but there is a problem with that. The information found in the Crayons of Time strips were passed down, true, but from Soon himself, a paladin. And because he's a paladin, he can't lie, and so the appearance of the Snarl killing his wife is a contradiction to the fact that there might not be a Snarl.

However, at this point in the story, there aren't SUPPOSED to be answers, only questions. We will learn in time.

The old dude with the cat said himself, he's no Paladin and could himself lie.

[Thanatosia]

Shadow;6788479']This is an interesting point, but there is a problem with that. The information found in the Crayons of Time strips were passed down, true, but from Soon himself, a paladin. And because he's a paladin, he can't lie, and so the appearance of the Snarl killing his wife is a contradiction to the fact that there might not be a Snarl.

However, at this point in the story, there aren't SUPPOSED to be answers, only questions. We will learn in time.
Soon could not lie, but Shojo (and probably his father) could, so there's at least 2 steps where the story could have been altered. That said, I see no compelling reason for them to alter the story in such a way, and I'd say with 99.99% confidence that the Snarl did exist and was impaling people through the rifts at least as recently as imediately prior to the Gates being constructed.

[Kish]

An entire world with chicks who have mustaches?:smalleek:
Do I hear anti-dwarf prejudice there?

[An Enemy Spy]

Also.. what happened to all those dudes thrown through the rift?

They burn up in the planet's upper atmosphere

[Tijne]

Perhaps...
Perhaps we do not know everything we ought to regarding the task which the Order is undertaking.

[Gamerlord]

A thought just randomly struck me, and as a brief search did not reveal it had been brought up before (if it has, my apologies; I do not frequent this sub-forum very often), I thought I'd post it to see what you think about it...

The Crayons of Time strips are only the - potentially incorrect - results of the Order of the Scribble's research about the nature of the Snarl, handed down over many years (and perhaps distorted in the process). If the Order of the Scribble misunderstood something about the Snarl, or what they found out passed to the Sapphire Guard in flawed form, they could contain elements that are completely wrong.

Specifically, they claim the previous world was destroyed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html) by the Snarl, and the gods then created world 2.0. They also imply the Snarl used to lurk just behind the rifts, ready to strike out as soon as something approached them.

And then we have #672, with Blackwing seeing this world beyond the rift... and no Snarl.

The thought this is the world thought to have been destroyed is obvious, and has been brought up before, too. And it is possible the Snarl is not lurking behind the rifts anymore because it cannot perceive them, as long as at least one gate remains.

However, the Snarl, being allegedly a being of pure chaos and destruction, should not let a planet exist in its own domain. And while the above might explain why the Snarl was not seen by Blackwing, there might be another explanation...

What if the knowledge of the Order of the Scribble concerning the Snarl was imperfect? What if having been sealed behind these gates/time/some other factor (possibly related with the world that has been destroyed or the Order of the Scribble's heroics) changed the nature of the Snarl, and the Snarl no longer exists in the form it used to?

What if the Snarl, confined to this limited space with no more holes to try to escape through, imprinted with the world it had devoured, curled up like a ball of wool... and then, over years, transformed into the world Blackwing saw?

What a coincide! This is my theory too!

[Hitorijun]

Granted this is a very well thought out and intersting theory, but a theory none the less.

Untill we get more proof or evidence or clues about this other world in the rift (which I beileve is impossible because to get any more information you would probably need to be in the rift itself, in which case it would probably be hard to communicate from one world to the next.)

So in the end we must wait and see.

[TriForce]

Well, just to add to the speculation, here is my 25 cents :)

Shojo explained that the prison of the snarl was made in multiple layers of existance, so that he couldnt possibly escape from it throuh one of them, so its possible that the world we saw wasnt 1.0, but a alternate version of world 2.0, existing in a different layer of existance, that would explain the lack of the snarl at least, and it also opens a lot of interesting possibilities....

For one, we all know rich just loves to use mirror versions, the order of the scribble and the order of the stick are almost exact copies, and the liniar guild is also a perfectly good example of it. so, lets assume for the sake of my train of tought rolling forward, that this is a alternate world 2.0

we could have exact opposites of the existing cast :) imagine a chaotic evil roy, a evil elan (and good Nale) etc.

or... a good belkar..... who could die sacrificing himself for a good cause.... and since he is belkar, the profecy is fulfilled, but, becouse hes from the mirror world, he cant be resurrected, and the people from alternate 2.0, being almost all evil, wouldnt want to..

we would also have a evil durkon....... who could come to the real 2.0, and go to his homeland, and bring death, destruction, and a lot of confusion :)

ofc, this is all a big stretch, but its not the most unreasonable theory ive seen on this forum, so im sure i can make it work :P

[Herald Alberich]

Shojo explained that the prison of the snarl was made in multiple layers of existance, so that he couldnt possibly escape from it throuh one of them, so its possible that the world we saw wasnt 1.0, but a alternate version of world 2.0, existing in a different layer of existance, that would explain the lack of the snarl at least, and it also opens a lot of interesting possibilities....

Maybe, but I took Shojo's line "multiple coterminous dimensions" to simply be a reference to the Inner Planes, as opposed to the Outer Planes where the gods and outsiders live. Now, forgive me if I don't have enough ranks in Knowledge (The Planes) here, but that would include the Prime Material Plane the comic is set on, and the others that intersect it, like the Ethereal Plane, Astral Plane, and Plane of Shadow, no?

edit: Basically, the Snarl is under a Dimensional Anchor spell of infinite duration. He's stuck in his own demiplane and can't escape through any of the others.

[Xesirin]

This was largely the idea I had brewing in the back of my mind.


This is an interesting point, but there is a problem with that. The information found in the Crayons of Time strips were passed down, true, but from Soon himself, a paladin. And because he's a paladin, he can't lie, and so the appearance of the Snarl killing his wife is a contradiction to the fact that there might not be a Snarl.


One thought that occurred to me was that Paladins cannot knowingly lie........... They aren't prevented from saying what they honestly BELIEVE is the truth, even if what they say is as far from the truth as can be.

But anyways.........

Yeah, the Snarl condensing itself into a new planet is very unlikely..... but at the same time, it would make for an interesting dramatic shift. Do they still need to seal up the Snarl? What happens to The Plan if Redcloak doesn't have a reality-devouring eldritch abomination to unleash upon the gods? How is Xykon going to react? Does stopping Xykon even matter anymore?

Stay tuned to find out................. :smalltongue:

[Kish]

the order of the scribble and the order of the stick are almost exact copies,
Hold the phone. Almost exact copies?

They're six-adventurer parties. That's about it, as far as "almost exact copies" goes. One party has the class composition fighter/rogue/ranger/bard/cleric/wizard and the other has the class composition paladin/rogue/wizard/druid/barbarian/unknown ("tracker and illusionist"). Each has one elf, one dwarf, and one halfling; one has a half-elf and two humans, the other has three humans. Both are standard D&D parties, neither identical nor different in a particular way that suggests an attempt at mirroring, and the personalities of everyone involved are quite distinct.

[Prime32]

What about this for a theory: Blackwing wasn't looking into the prison. He was looking out. The OOTS world is the Snarl.

[Optimystik]

What about this for a theory: Blackwing wasn't looking into the prison. He was looking out. The OOTS world is the Snarl.

Duuuuuuuuude. You just blew my mind.

[borg286]

What about this for a theory: Blackwing wasn't looking into the prison. He was looking out. The OOTS world is the Snarl.

The plot thickens. (dramatic drums)

[Grey Knight]

Duuuuuuuuude. You just blew my mind.

Totaaallly. Prime32 blew us good.

[Dixieboy]

At this point, all is speculation.

We know there was a Snarl and that it was active thru the rifts,


How do we know that?

[Optimystik]

How do we know that?

We do have one fully reliable primary source: Lirian mentions the Snarl in SoD and how dangerous it is. SoD is not a flashback, so her information wasn't filtered through any proxies (like Shojo or Redcloak.)

EDIT for SoD quotage.

Lirian's Snarl statements:

"It almost goes without saying that we cannot allow them to succeed. The entire planet - in fact, all planes of existence - are in danger should they gain the ability to release the Snarl."

And later:

"You may defeat me, you may even kill me, but you will never succeed in releasing the Snarl. Even if you locate them, my friends will stop you from conquering the other four gates."

So she at least knows the Snarl exists, though as was said before in this thread, it could and indeed must have changed somewhat since then.

[Cleverdan22]

Also.. what happened to all those dudes thrown through the rift?

They weren't thrown through the rift. They were attempting to get past the wards placed on the gate by Dorukan. Or rather, Xykon was attempting to see what would happen when they walked into it. For research, and because he was bored.

[Dixieboy]

We do have one fully reliable primary source: Lirian mentions the Snarl in SoD and how dangerous it is. SoD is not a flashback, so her information wasn't filtered through any proxies (like Shojo or Redcloak.)

EDIT for SoD quotage.

Lirian's Snarl statements:

"It almost goes without saying that we cannot allow them to succeed. The entire planet - in fact, all planes of existence - are in danger should they gain the ability to release the Snarl."

And later:

"You may defeat me, you may even kill me, but you will never succeed in releasing the Snarl. Even if you locate them, my friends will stop you from conquering the other four gates."

So she at least knows the Snarl exists, though as was said before in this thread, it could and indeed must have changed somewhat since then.Ah, I have never read SoD.

However:
Couldn't it be theorized that while she believes there is a snarl, there really isn't one.

That she could possibly be wrong, might be a nice little twist. (Which is never going to happen now that it has been suggested on the forum)

[Sequinox]

What about those of us who routinely changes their facial hair, or shaves it, every other week?

The snarl hates you, for you confuse it. That takes talent, because this is an incarnation of chaos that you just confused. Congratulations. Have a bottle of awesomesauce.

[Drider]

What about those of us who routinely changes their facial hair, or shaves it, every other week?

The copy will also change it every other week, and will be whatever you are'nt...They'll also attempt to kill you so they don't have to change their hair styles so often and can just be lazy with it...ya jerk :smalltongue:

[Optimystik]

Ah, I have never read SoD.

However:
Couldn't it be theorized that while she believes there is a snarl, there really isn't one.

There might not be one now, but it almost certainly existed back when she and her friends were sealing the rifts. Note that her claim is that the planet will be in danger if Xykon and Redcloak merely release, rather than capture/control, the Snarl. This implies that she considers the Snarl itself to be the true source of danger, regardless of what Team Evil wanted to do with it.


That she could possibly be wrong, might be a nice little twist. (Which is never going to happen now that it has been suggested on the forum)

Don't worry about that; Rich has said he's never changed the story because someone guessed what would happen. :smallsmile:

While she could have been flat-out wrong, given her background it isn't likely. First, As an epic level druid she has considerable sources of, and ways to gather, information about things that don't belong in the natural world; the Snarl definitely qualifies. Even more importantly, her divinations bypass any deities that would want to obfuscate or mislead her, allowing her to get answers directly from nature itself. Second, if Shojo's story can be believed, she has witnessed the Snarl herself at least once, and experienced firsthand what it's capable of (the deaths of many forest animals, Mijung's murder and Kraagor's.) Finally, as one of the two creators of the gates, she would logically have had to know at least a little about the entity they were designed to hold back. So the evidence is in favor of the Snarl's existence, at least at that point in time.

[TriForce]

Hold the phone. Almost exact copies?

They're six-adventurer parties. That's about it, as far as "almost exact copies" goes. One party has the class composition fighter/rogue/ranger/bard/cleric/wizard and the other has the class composition paladin/rogue/wizard/druid/barbarian/unknown ("tracker and illusionist"). Each has one elf, one dwarf, and one halfling; one has a half-elf and two humans, the other has three humans. Both are standard D&D parties, neither identical nor different in a particular way that suggests an attempt at mirroring, and the personalities of everyone involved are quite distinct.

Roy - soon, both lawful fighter types
V - durokan, both mages
belkar - kraagor, both barbarian ( at least part) both small, both look very quick to anger
durkon - lirian, this is a example of a mirror, both are divine casters, but lirian is a druid, a "treehugger" while durkon, not really :P
serini - haley both rogues, both female, both the same haircolour, both in love with the "illusionist" of the group
Elan - girard, both a token of affection for the rogue, both make plenty of use of illusions (even tough elan isnt a illusionist, its the only bard spell he uses save one)

so yes, they are very much alike, in a lot of ways, ofc when you go in depth, they are not exact clones, but i never said that anyway