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Lubirio
2009-08-24, 11:23 AM
While being frustrated at the lack of good ranged classes in D&D for a while, I haven't done much about it until now. I now have homebrewed an attempt to make a decent ranged combatant, and possibly a base for many other such classes (and possibly a ranged based PrC?). So without further ado, I present to you, the Archer:

Seems to be finished, if you want to suggest any changes you can post here or PM me, whichever you feel is more convenient,

Archer

Hit Die
d6

Class Skills
The Archer's class skills (and the key ability for each skill), are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) (Wis), Knowledge (Geography) (Wis), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex)

Skill Points:
4 + Int modifier, x4 at first level.

The Archer:
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Trick Shots|Trick Shots /day

1st|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+0|Archery Style|
1|
4

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+0|Dodge|
2|
4

3rd|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+1|Eagle Eyes +1|
2|
5

4th|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+1|Power Shot|
3|
5

5th|
+5|
+1|
+4|
+1|Ranged Precision Damage|
3|
5

6th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+5|
+2|Eagle Eyes +2, Evasion|
4|
6

7th|
+7/+2|
+2|
+5|
+2|Improved Archery Style|
4|
6

8th|
+8/+3|
+2|
+6|
+2|Mobility|
5|
6

9th|
+9/+4|
+3|
+6|
+3|Eagle Eyes +3, Bypass Barrier|
5|
6

10th|
+10/+5|
+3|
+7|
+3|Improved Evasion|
6|
7

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+3|
+7|
+3|Ranged Combat Proficiency|
6|
7

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+4|
+8|
+4|Eagle Eyes +4, Greater Archery Style|
7|
7

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+4|
+8|
+4|Improved Bypass Barriers|
7|
7

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+4|
+9|
+4|Safe Shooting|
8|
7

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+5|
+9|
+5|Eagle Eyes +5, X-ray Vision|
8|
8

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+10|
+5|Archery Style Supremacy|
9|
8

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+5|Greater Bypass Barrier|
9|
8

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+11|
+6|Eagle Eyes +6|
10|
8

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+11|
+6|Phase Arrows|
10|
8

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+12|
+6|Archery Style Perfection|
11|
9
[/table]
For feat requirements where fighter levels are required, fighter levels and archer levels stack and are generally considered to be the same in that respect.

Class Features
All of the following are class feature of the Archer.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Archers are proficient with all simple weapons and all ranged weapons, including throwing weapons, and with light armor, but not with shields.

Trick Shots
An archer has knowledge of several trick shots, the amount of trick shots known to the archer is equal to 1/2 his BAB +1 (rounded down). A comprehensive list of all the trick shots is detailed below.

Archery Style
At 1st level an archer chooses one of two styles of archery, the Volley Archer who fights through sheer number of arrows rather than pure damage, or the Sniper Archer who fights through a single, strong, devastating shot, usually under safety of cover. Once this choice is made, it effects the progression of all further archery style benefits and trick shots.

At 1st level the Volley Archer gains the Rapid Shot feat, and the Sniper Archer gains the benefits of the Darkstalker feat, even if he does not qualify for it. A Sniper Archer who is entitled an extra attack in a round instead adds the damage from another arrow to his only arrow fired. This effect stacks with anything else effectively adding damage.

Dodge
An archer gains Dodge as a bonus feat at 2nd level.

Eagle Eyes
At 3rd level the archer's senses enable superior shooting. He gains a +1 competence bonus to ranged attack rolls. Every 3 levels thereafter, he gains an additional +1 to attack rolls for ranged attacks.

Power Shot
At 4th level, an archer gains the benefit of the Power shot feat, on your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all ranged attack rolls and add the same number to all ranged damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Ranged Precision Damage
The archer gains an understanding of his chosen archery style unmatched by any other. At fifth level, a Sniper Archer gains +1d6 extra damage whenever a target is further than 20ft away, and an additional +1d6 every 2 levels after 5th. And a Volley Archer gains +1d6 extra damage to each arrow fired in a round, as long as he fires at least 3 arrows, this damage is increased by +1d6 every 5 levels after 5th for every arrow fired.

Evasion
At 6th level and higher, an archer can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the archer is wearing light armor or no armor. If an archer would lose his dexterity bonus to AC, he does dot gain the benefit of Evasion.

Improved Archery Style
At 7th level an archer's archery style advances. A Volley Archer gains Manyshot as a bonus feat. A Sniper Archer instead gains both Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot as bonus feats.

Mobility
An archer gains Mobility as a bonus feat at 8th level.

Bypass Barrier
At 9th level any archer can ignore non-solid barriers and shoot straight through them, this includes effects like Wind Barrier and the like.

Improved Evasion
At 10th level an archer becomes even more difficult to hit with magic and other attacks. This ability works like evasion, except that while the archer still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, henceforth he takes only half damage on a failed save. An archer that would lose his Dexterity bonus to AC cannot use this ability.

Ranged Combat Proficiency
At 11th level, all archers become more attuned to all ranged weapons and increase the damage die by one interval (shortbow would become 1d8, longbow 1d10, etc.), this damage counts for all ranged weapons at all times, except when an archer is less than 20ft away from his target, he is then unable to get enough focus to be able to increase the damage.

Greater Archery Style
At 12th level an archer's archery style advances yet again. A Volley Archer gains the benefit of Improved Rapid Shot. A Sniper Archer instead gets the ability to retain cover easier when sniping. He only takes a -10 penalty to hide checks after an attack instead of -20.

Improved Bypass Barriers
At 13th level, an archer's ability to bypass nonphysical barriers increases to the point where the archer can successfully shoot at anything withing line of sight without dealing with extreme winds or magical effects possibly blocking the arrows.

Safe Shooting
At 14th level and beyond, an archer may fire even in the midst of melee. The true archer no longer provokes attacks of opportunity for firing in melee. He now retains the improved damage die for all ranged attacks, even when his enemy is within 20ft of the archer.

X-ray Vision
At 15th level, the archer gains the ability to see into and through solid matter. Vision range is 50 feet, with the archer seeing as if he were looking at something in normal light even if there is no illumination. X-ray Vision can penetrate 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, or up to 3 feet of wood or dirt. Thicker substances or a thin sheet of lead blocks the vision. This ability can be used a number of minutes per day equal to the archer's constitution score +10. This does not grant the archer the ability to also shoot through solid matter.

Archery Style Supremacy
At 16th level an archer's archery style reaches the best of his kind. A Volley Archer gains the ability to rain arrows from the sky, the arrow splitting into many mid-flight. As a standard action he may target a 20 ft. radius area and deal his normal damage, with a Reflex save DC 10 + 1/2 class level + Dex modifier, for half damage. A Sniper Archer likewise gains a similar power, but instead attacks in a 120 ft. line, striking all opponents within the line with a Reflex save DC 10 + 1/2 class level + Dex modifier for half damage. This arrow is not subject to AC and can therefore not be blocked, it keeps going until it reaches 120ft.

Greater Bypass Barriers
At 18th level, in addition to ignoring any magical effects, an archer's arrows ignore 30% of all concealment or cover, magical or otherwise. This means that total concealment only provides a 20% miss chance.

Phase Arrows
At 19th level, a select few of an archer's arrows are able to ignore nigh any barrier. This ability creates ethereal arrows, these arrows ignore physical barriers and damages all ethereal creatures with normal damage, this is only valid for one range increment, beyond one range increment, the arrows will resume normal form and be blocked by any barriers it would normally be blocked by. This ability can be used once for every Intelligence score +1/2 archer level, rounded down, it creates the effect for all arrows fired in that round.

Archery Style Perfection
As the archer becomes more and more focused on his style of archery, he gains the perfection needed to be so much more devastating than any other 'bowman'. At lvl 20, a Sniper archer may make a single attack at full BAB doing damage as normal, but adding damage from to possible extra arrows, dealing even more damage than normal, adding an additional 2 arrows to the total damage. A Volley Archer may make a full attack action to fire the number of arrows his BAB allows him, plus one more arrow at full BAB and BAB-5 each.

Specific Trick Shots

Armor Breaker: An archer may make a standard action to attack a creature at half his Base Attack Bonus. If her attack is successful the archer's attack ignores damage all reduction, an archer with extra attacks because of high BAB does not get to make those additional attacks. (Level 10+ Sniper Archers Only)

Arrow Spray: As a full-round action an archer may make a ranged attack against all opponents within 30 feet, an archer that gains multiple attacks because of high Base Attack Bonus, also gets to utilize these attack against all opponents. (Level 10+ Volley Archers Only)

Doom Shot: A Sniper Archer is so attuned to kill in a single shot, that with this shot, his arrow whizzes from the string, screaming with fury and carrying the power of Death itself. The target of this trick must make a Fortitude save with a DC of 10 + your dexterity modifier + 1/2 Archer level or be slain instantly. If the save is made, the arrow instead deals an additional 20d6 damage. A Sniper Archer can use this ability once per day for every ten archer levels. (Level 20+ Sniper Archers Only)

Hail of Black Death: As a Volley Archer advances he is more and more able to shoot hordes of arrows, and at the peak of his powers he knocks an arrow, then swifter than time itself he lets loose a deadly rain of steel upon his foes in a mad whirlwind of lightning-fast action. Using this trick, you can make a full attack on every single creature within range, bonus attacks for high BAB applies, a sniper archer may make additional attacks based on his Dexterity modifier at full BAB (1 extra attack per +4 mod). A Volley archer can use this ability once per day for every 10 archer levels. (Level 20+ Volley Archers Only)

Hidden Shot: When an archer makes a ranged attack against an opponent while hidden, his location is not automatically known by onlookers. This Trick shot is only available to Sniper Archers.

Parabolic Shot: An archer may make an attack that fires over any walls, up to 15ft high, at half the range increment of his weapon, at the penalty of halving the weapon's range increment again, the archer can shoot over walls up to 30ft high, this option is continuously available (each time the range is halved, the max. wall height doubles, starting at 15ft for one half).

Rain of Arrows: Whenever an archer uses a full attack action against a single opponent, that opponent is blinded for 1d4 rounds and is treated as flat-footed for that duration plus another 2 rounds. This Trick Shot is only available to Volley Archers.

Ranged Cripple: As a ranged attack, an archer may attempt to shoot at a target's feet, effectively doing half damage, but also halving the target's base land speed, as caltrops do. When attempting a ranged cripple trick shot, the defender's AC is treated as if he is one size-category smaller. After all, feet aren't that big.

Ranged Disarm: As a ranged attack, an archer may attempt to disarm his opponent, he knocks the opponent’s weapon out of his hands and to the ground. If he fails on the disarm attempt, the defender cannot attempt to disarm the archer. Bows and crossbows, except the hand crossbow, count as two-handed weapons for this purpose.

Ranged Feint: Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check by the target. The target may add his base attack bonus to this Sense Motive check. If the archer's Bluff check result exceeds the target’s Sense Motive check result, the next ranged attack he makes against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before the archer's next turn.
When feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid the archer takes a -4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), the archer takes a -8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible.
Ranged Feint does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Ranged Sunder: An archer can use a ranged attack to strike a weapon or shield that his opponent is holding, all bows and crossbows, except the hand crossbow, count as two-handed weapons for this purpose. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Ranged Trip: An archer may make a ranged touch attack against his opponent, if the attack succeeds, he makes a dexterity check opposed to the target's constitution check, normal size modifiers do apply as for the trip special attack. If the archer wins, the target character is tripped and drops prone. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity, and it is a full-round action.

Ricochet: An archer can use his ranged attack against enemies without line of effect. If the target is within one range increment they may be attacked if the line of effect can be made with 5 connected straight lines. (Level 15+ Archers Only)

Running Shot: An archer may take a full move action as well as firing a full round attack at any point in the movement, however, an archer using this Trick Shot can only use half his BAB for that round.

Sample Archers (lvl 20): Volley Archer (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=149185) and Sniper Archer (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=149210).

Credit to helpers of this Archer class (In order of appearance): Myou, arguskos, AgentPaper, vampire2948, Elvenblade, Jallorn, Person Man, Dienekes, DragoonWraith, The Dark Fiddler.
Thanks to all who helped, even if it was only to say something like 'this is overpowered', all help helped in the end to make this great homebrew class for what it is, so, to all: Thank You.

The Epic Archer:
{table=head]Archer Level|
Special|Trick Shots /day

21st|Eagle Eyes +7|
9

22nd||
9

23rd|Bonus Feat|
9

24th|Eagle Eyes +8|
9

25th||
10

26th|Bonus Feat|
10

27th|Eagle Eyes +9|
10

28th||
10

29th|Bonus Feat|
10

30th|Eagle Eyes +10|
11

[/table]

Abilities that are a function of the Archer's class level continue to use the Archer's class level, even when increased beyond 20th level. (These are abilities like Eagle Eyes, Phase Arrows and Ranged Precision Damage)

The number of Trick Shots known doesn't increase after 20ft level, as he then already knows all trick shots, but the number of trick shots will increase at a pace of one extra per day, every 5 levels, as displayed in the table above.

Myou
2009-08-24, 11:40 AM
Why doesn't the sniper path gain long-range precision damage?

Also, you get so few uses of Elemental Arrow, that it looks a little weak.

The class looks good though, although I'd change a few things.

arguskos
2009-08-24, 11:53 AM
It's a nice start, but it doesn't fix the issues archery actually has. For example, this class is still shafted when someone tosses up a Wind Wall. Anything with energy resistance 10 or better laughs at it's only source of damage increase.

What this class needs is something like ranged precision damage, such as "As long as you are 50 ft or more away from your opponent, you deal an extra +Xd6 (+1d6/2 levels or so) damage on your first attack against that opponent" for the Sniper, and "As long as you fire 3 or more arrows this round, each attack you make this turn deals +1d6 damage/4 levels on each shot" for the Volley Archer.

Further, it NEEDS a way to push through it's shots, such as something to penetrate barriers. Something like, "At level 9, the Archer gains the supernatural ability to phase arrows through obstacles. So great is their skill that all shots they fire ignore all cover, concealment, or barriers that would prevent a physical arrow from hitting it's target." Worded better, of course, so it doesn't cut out Invisibility or something. Just an ability to punch through walls and Wind Wall, so the class isn't totally screwed.

Notably, I do like the effort, I just think it's not where it needs to be yet. It gets roflcrushed by any caster still. With some alterations, it could probably be a Tier 2 class.

EDIT: Also, your table for saves is messed up. The high level Ref and Will saves are flipped. Might wanna fix that one. :smallwink:

AgentPaper
2009-08-24, 12:07 PM
As well as the balance issues, I can't help but notice that this would be a very, very boring class to play. The entire playstyle consists of moving as little as possible and making the same attack every single round. Give the player something to do, some sub-game that they're playing besides "roll attacks, now roll damage, okay my turn is done."

vampire2948
2009-08-24, 12:24 PM
Maybe learn special shots?

Like... Trick Shot : Knockdown, knocks the target prone on a successful hit.

I'm sure you can think of more.. Would make it more interesting.

Maybe make them work like ToB classes maneuvers do?

arguskos
2009-08-24, 12:28 PM
Maybe make them work like ToB classes maneuvers do?
No! Please, please, PLEASE don't do this!! Not all of us like ToB, and there are already a few ToB archery disciplines floating around, enough to be worth playing with. I'd much prefer that any trick shot mechanics be unique, and not ToB.

vampire2948
2009-08-24, 12:29 PM
No! Please, please, PLEASE don't do this!! Not all of us like ToB, and there are already a few ToB archery disciplines floating around, enough to be worth playing with. I'd much prefer that any trick shot mechanics be unique, and not ToB.

:smallsmile: Oh, okay then.

Having them a certain amount of times / day seems a bit... meh.

Perhaps allow the archer to do them infinitely? But give different shots different conditions to be allowed? Combination shots perhaps?

e.g.

'Distracting Shot' - Distracts the target, giving it a penalty to listen and spot checks equal to half the archer's level.

'Sneaky Shot' - Adds 1d6 damage to the next arrow fired. The target must be distracted, or be in a condition that would normally allow a rogue's sneak attack to work.

Or something?

Elfin
2009-08-24, 12:35 PM
Distracting Shot is already a feat.

vampire2948
2009-08-24, 12:37 PM
Distracting Shot is already a feat.

Meh... they were just ideas for combination shots.

AgentPaper
2009-08-24, 12:39 PM
Well, coming up with interesting attack options is all fun and good, but really the focus should be more on figuring out what the archer would be trying to do in combat, and then giving them options to facilitate that. Whether they're trying to control the battlefield, or just pump out damage, they should have at least a handful of options on any given round, and ideally no two rounds would be alike.

Elfin
2009-08-24, 12:40 PM
Oh, by the way- looks pretty good.
A good addition, though, would be the changes suggested by Argus in the third post.

arguskos
2009-08-24, 12:45 PM
:smallsmile: Oh, okay then.
No biggie man, I just think that ToB is often overhyped as the end-all-be-all. In official material only, perhaps. In homebrew, nah, you can make all sorts of awesome, non-ToB abilities that give fun tricks and options in combat.

Anyways, I do think the stuff I suggested will help greatly in making the class more powerful, and not as shafted by a single effect. I also support making trick shots that you can learn a number of and use frequently.

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 01:00 PM
So I'm thinking of eliminating the elemental arrows for special trick shots starting at 5th (or so) level, where you can choose between 5 or more different types of shots and you can use once per encounter and once extra per 3 lvls?

If so I'll need ideas for the special shots, probably half of those being: 'as long as an archer has line of sight to his target, his arrows will reach it' or something like that.

EDIT: fixed the saves :smallwink:

arguskos
2009-08-24, 01:13 PM
So I'm thinking of eliminating the elemental arrows for special trick shots starting at 5th (or so) level, where you can choose between 5 or more different types of shots and you can use once per encounter and once extra per 3 lvls?

If so I'll need ideas for the special shots, probably half of those being: 'as long as an archer has line of sight to his target, his arrows will reach it' or something like that.

EDIT: fixed the saves :smallwink:
Awww... no love for my ideas? They'd help with the damage issues archery has... :smallwink:

Anyways, I'll return later (if I remember) with trick shots.

Jallorn
2009-08-24, 01:16 PM
Personally, the energy bonus seems to be the wrong flavor to me. Instead, I think an archery based sneak attack bonus for the sniper and something similar for the volley sounds good.

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 01:23 PM
Awww... no love for my ideas? They'd help with the damage issues archery has... :smallwink:

Anyways, I'll return later (if I remember) with trick shots.

No, I love your ideas, I was building off of them in order to come up with my other idea about the trick shots...

Person_Man
2009-08-24, 01:24 PM
Quibbles:

No other full BAB class gets Evasion at level 2. You're basically stealing a niche from the Rogue/Scout/Ninja. I suggest moving it to level 9ish to be in line with the Ranger.

The wording for Power Shot is a bit confusing. Can I use Shock Trooper with Power Shot? Leap Attack? Something like this might be more appropriate: "Before making a ranged attack roll with a bow, choose a number to subtract from your attack rolls up to your base attack bonus and add this same number to the damage dealt with any bow attacks that hits. The penalty on attack rolls and bonus on damage rolls last until the beginning of your next turn."

I hate dead levels. Give them something at level 17.

You might want to add in a series of trick shot class abilities similar to the Master Thrower. You need not make them manuevers - if they're balanced well, you can just make them At Will abilities.

arguskos
2009-08-24, 01:24 PM
No, I love your ideas, I was building off of them in order to come up with my other idea about the trick shots...
I'd suggest the damage bonuses and the wall penetration as permanent abilities, otherwise, they're tricks EVERYONE is going to take. By making them class features, you free up the tricks to be more esoteric stuff, like ranged disarm, ranged pin, crippling shots (shoot someone in the foot to cripple them), ranged sunder, you know, awesome combat options.

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 01:32 PM
That makes sense, and I'll make the wording for power shot more readable too. Thanks a lot so far on your help, I'll make some changes now, based on your suggestions.

EDIT: I also put in some trick shots, still brainstorming though...

Elfin
2009-08-24, 02:24 PM
Looks much better with the changes; nice work.

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 02:46 PM
do you have any suggestions for more Trick Shots? If I don't get enough I might change it to how many do you know, and you can always use ones you know, no limit...

Dienekes
2009-08-24, 03:24 PM
Nice class so far. I had a similar idea actually for an archer class, except it used range precision damage (I personally don't like adding magic to my martial classes, though I understand how such attacks like elemental arrow would be useful)

I'm still working on concepts for trick shots to add to my class as well (we also seem to have given the same progression for abilities) some ones that i had developed were

Hampering Shot (Ex): An archer may take standard action to attack an opponent using half her ranged precision bonus. Upon dealing damage the opponent must make a Reflex saving throw (DC 10 + ½ archer’s level + her Wisdom modifier) or only be able to move at half speed for 1 round.

Leg-Piercing Shot (Ex): An archer may take a standard action to attack an opponent using half her ranged precision bonus. Upon dealing damage the opponent must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ½ archer level + her Wisdom modifier) or become flat-footed for 1 round.

High Shot (Ex): An archer may make an attack that fires over any walls at half the range increment of her weapon.

Insightful Shot (Ex): An archer may make a standard action to attack a creature at half her ranged precision bonus and add +10 to her attack roll.

Armor Breaker (Ex): An archer may make a standard action to attack a creature at half her ranged precision bonus. If her attack is successful the archer's attack ignores damage reduction. (Required level 10)

Hidden Shot (Ex): When an archer makes a ranged attack against an opponent while hidden, her location is not automatically known by onlookers.

Arrow Spray (Ex): As a full round action an archer may make a ranged attack against all opponents within 30 feet. (Required level 10)

Wing Piercing Shot (Ex): An archer may make a standard action to attack a creature that is flying at half her ranged precision bonus. If her shot deals damage the targeted opponent must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ½ archer level + her Wisdom modifier) or plummet from the sky, this ability work against all flying opponents, including those flying with magic. (Required level 10)

Rain of Arrows (Ex): Whenever an archer uses a full attack action against a single opponent that opponent is blinded for that round, and must make a Will saving throw (DC 10+ ½ archer’s level + archer’s Wisdom modifier) or become shaken for 1d3 rounds. (Required level 10)

Ricochet (Ex): An archer can use her ranged attack against enemies without line of effect. If the target is within 60 feet they may be attacked if the line of effect can be made with 3 connected straight lines. (Required level 10)

Improved Close Combat Shot (Ex): An archer, when using a ranged weapon threatens all opponents within a 15 foot radius. This ability requires Close-Combat Shot. (Required level 10)

Running Shot (Ex): An archer may take a full move action as well as firing either a Precise Shot or a full round attack at any point in the movement. (Capstone)

I hope some of these help, they'll probably need to be retooled though

Myou
2009-08-24, 03:42 PM
One trick shot could let you bypass DR.

Maybe one could let you pierce magical barriers like Wind Wall.

Elfin
2009-08-24, 03:46 PM
There's already a class ability that pierces barriers.
Dienekes, I like those tricks, especially Hidden Shot, Armor Breaker, Rain of Arrows, Running Shot, Arrow Spray, and Ricochet.

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 04:13 PM
I'm thinking of adding High shot (calling it Parabolic shot, seems more appropriate), Hidden Shot (can be learned by sniper Archers only), Arrow spray (for Volley Archers only), Armor Breaker (for Sniper Archers only), Rain of Arrows (for Volley Archers only), Running Shot and Ricochet (making it 4 or 5 instead of 3, but only lvl 15 onward), all as trick shots, with the current number in the trick shot column as the maximum # of trick shots known. Any thoughts?

Elfin
2009-08-24, 04:24 PM
Sounds good to me.
There definitely should be some more tricks, though...I'll start working on some.

EDIT:Here we go:

Capstone Tricks
Doom Shot (Sniper Only)
Your arrow whizzes from the string, screaming with fury and carrying the power of Death itself. The target of this trick must make a Fortitude save with a DC of 10+ 1/2 your archer level+your dexterity modifier or be slain instantly. If the save is made, the arrow instead deals an additional 20d6 damage.
Required Level: 20

Hail of Black Death (Volley only)
Stern and mighty, you stand before your enemies. Slowly, you knock an arrow, then swifter than time itself you let loose a deadly rain of steel upon your foes in a mad whirlwind of lightning-fast action.
Using this trick, you can make a full attack on every creature within range.
It takes a full-round action to use this trick.
Required Level: 20

Myou
2009-08-24, 04:44 PM
DC of 10+your Archer level+ your dexterity modifier or be slain instantly

DC 40 save or die? o.o

Elfin
2009-08-24, 04:46 PM
How about taking out the "+Archer level"
Reduces the DC by 20...
Changed it.
Or maybe +1/2 your Archer level?

Myou
2009-08-24, 04:50 PM
How about taking out the "+Archer level"
Reduces the DC by 20...
Changed it.
Or maybe +1/2 your Archer level?

Yeah, half archer level would be more in line with other kill effects. Without adding something for level it would be too weak. :smallsmile:

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 04:50 PM
Thanks so much, I'm adding it all in now, tell me how I can reward you all for helping me so much :smallwink:

EDIT: I retooled some tricks a bit, but for the (pretty surely) instant kill tricks, I made it available whenever, should I place a maximum per day on that or no? Also, should an archer be able to combine an elemental arrow with any trick or is that too powerful?

Myou
2009-08-24, 05:06 PM
Thanks so much, I'm adding it all in now, tell me how I can reward you all for helping me so much :smallwink:

EDIT: I retooled some tricks a bit, but for the (pretty surely) instant kill tricks, should I place a maximum per day on that or no? Also, should an archer be able to combine an elemental arrow with any trick or is that too powerful?

I think the simple tricks should be at will.

I really don't think the elemental effect matches the rest of the fluff though, you might want to change that. I think you ought to remove it and give scaling precision damage.

I haven't done much to help, but you're welcome. :smallsmile:

Elfin
2009-08-24, 05:08 PM
I agree; the Elemental Arrow ability doesn't really match the feel of the class, and it's a rather small bonus.
There should definitely be a maximum number of times you can use the more powerful shots...let me stew over this for a bit.

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 05:15 PM
So I can replace the elemental arrow with Ranged Precision bonuses, +1d8 or +2d6 every time? and for ranges over 50ft then.

arguskos
2009-08-24, 05:19 PM
So I can replace the elemental arrow with Ranged Precision bonuses, +1d8 or +2d6 every time? and for ranges over 50ft then.
I still like my precision damage suggestions! Also, I am stewing over some more unique archery tricks.

Myou
2009-08-24, 05:21 PM
I still like my precision damage suggestions! Also, I am stewing over some more unique archery tricks.

Yeah, I'd go with yours too - lots of damage to one shot at long range for the sniper, a little extra at any range to each shot for the volley.

Elfin
2009-08-24, 05:22 PM
How about we treat Tricks like spells, but modify the levels at which you get new spell levels- level 1 tricks at level 2, level 2 at 4, 3 at 6, 4 at 8, and so on- essentially, like sorcerer spells, but starting at level 2 instead of 1. Level 1-3 Tricks can be used an infinite number of times, but for levels 4-9 we use the Sorcerer's Spells Per Day.
The two capstone Tricks can be Level 9 Tricks, meaning that they'd come at level 18.

And I like the idea for Ranged Precision Bonus. Good stuff.

Dienekes
2009-08-24, 05:23 PM
Glad I could be of assistance, Lubirio.

And I would agree, Ranged Precision is definitely a good switch.

Also some other options I've implemented that could be changed into more archer only abilities you might like are targeted shots.

Targeted Attack, Arm: Attacks suffer a -6 penalty. Upon a successful hit of the opponent’s arm the target must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC the attack’s damage) or suffers -1d2 Strength damage and an additional -1 to all attack rolls with that arm, -1 to all casting rolls with somatic components, -1 to all skill rolls involving the targeted hand. The effects of several Targeted Attacks to the arm stack. When an arm is dealt 1/3 of an opponent’s maximum hit points then the opponent has lost total use of its arm. They can no longer use their arm in any fashion. All checks or attacks that require the use of the lost arm automatically fails. All casting rolls that require somatic components take an additional -8.

Targeted Attack, Eyes: Attack suffers a -10 penalty. Upon a successful hit of the opponent’s eyes the target must make a Reflex saving throw (DC the attack’s damage) or they lose its eye and become dazzled for 1d2 rounds and suffer a -4 penalty to Perception checks based upon sight. Upon losing all of its eyes the opponent becomes permanently blinded.

Targeted Attack, Head: Attack suffers a -8 penalty. Upon a successful hit of the opponent’s head the target must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC the attack’s damage) or become dazed for 1d4 rounds. Upon a target’s head is dealt 1/3 of its maximum hit points then the opponent falls unconscious, upon failing the last Fortitude saving throw.

Targeted Attack, Leg: Attacks suffer a -6 penalty. Upon a successful hit of the opponent’s leg the target must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC the attack’s damage) or suffers -1d2 Dexterity damage and take a -5 feet penalty to their base speed. The effects of several Targeted Attacks to the leg stack. When a leg is dealt 1/3 of an opponent’s maximum hit points then the opponent has lost its leg. They can no longer use their leg in any fashion. If the opponent has lost ¼ of its legs or more it must make a Reflex saving throw (DC the attack’s damage) or be knocked prone. **Currently trying to figure out how this would work against many legged opponents.

I'm not sure if they are usable with what you have in mind, but I thought I'd throw them out to see if you can forge a trick or two out of them

Dienekes
2009-08-24, 05:26 PM
How about we treat Tricks like spells, but modify the levels at which you get new spell levels- level 1 tricks at level 2, level 2 at 4, 3 at 6, 4 at 8, and so on- essentially, like sorcerer spells, but starting at level 2 instead of 1. Level 1-3 Tricks can be used an infinite number of times, but for levels 4-9 we use the Sorcerer's Spells Per Day.
The two capstone Tricks can be Level 9 Tricks, meaning that they'd come at level 18.

One problem that I see is that for this to work you have to (for options sake) create and categorize at least 20 to 30 tricks.

That is a hell of a lot of work.

Elfin
2009-08-24, 05:29 PM
How about tricks that do ability damage? There would be 6 of them, one for each ability, and you could select Improved and Greater versions as you progress. The Lesser would do 1d6 ability damage, the Improved 2d6, and the Greater 4d6.

And Dienekes, I don't mind doing all that work.

Another idea- maybe Improved Armor Breaker, which lets you make a full attack, each one bypassing DR.

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 05:37 PM
I still like my precision damage suggestions! Also, I am stewing over some more unique archery tricks.
I'm probably gonna go with that for a replacement to elemental arrow.


How about we treat Tricks like spells, but modify the levels at which you get new spell levels- level 1 tricks at level 2, level 2 at 4, 3 at 6, 4 at 8, and so on- essentially, like sorcerer spells, but starting at level 2 instead of 1. Level 1-3 Tricks can be used an infinite number of times, but for levels 4-9 we use the Sorcerer's Spells Per Day.
The two capstone Tricks can be Level 9 Tricks, meaning that they'd come at level 18.

And I like the idea for Ranged Precision Bonus. Good stuff.
Though a very good idea, I don't think I'm gonna be able to use this as there are only a maximum of 11 tricks any archer can know/use.


Glad I could be of assistance, Lubirio.

And I would agree, Ranged Precision is definitely a good switch.

Also some other options I've implemented that could be changed into more archer only abilities you might like are targeted shots.

[Details on Targeted Attack]

I'm not sure if they are usable with what you have in mind, but I thought I'd throw them out to see if you can forge a trick or two out of them
This would work well for the Sniper Archer, the only problem being to find a replacement trick set for the Volley Archer...

These are all good ideas, thanks. However, I find only one of them currently ready for use, which is the ranged precision damage argus suggested, if altered somewhat with the suggestions I gave I might use them. And of course when all is said and done I will credit all of you appropriately :smallbiggrin:


How about tricks that do ability damage? There would be 6 of them, one for each ability, and you could select Improved and Greater versions as you progress. The Lesser would do 1d6 ability damage, the Improved 2d6, and the Greater 4d6.

And Dienekes, I don't mind doing all that work.

Another idea- maybe Improved Armor Breaker, which lets you make a full attack, each one bypassing DR.
Yet another great idea I might use (I feel like I'm being overwhelmed with great ideas right now, don't know what to do! :smalleek:)

Dienekes
2009-08-24, 05:40 PM
@ Elvenblade

Now here's a problem to that idea, if you do improved versions of abilities that requires that the class has to waste it's limited resources to get such abilities. To do a trick and be relevant for later levels it'd have to take the same thing 3 times. This drastically cuts into the classes flexibility, especially when it's only getting 10-11 tricks.

AgentPaper
2009-08-24, 05:42 PM
Bouncing Shot:

Pick a solid object that you can target with your ranged attack. Then, treat that target as the origin of your shot for the purposes of cover. This shot takes a -4 penalty to the attack roll and denies the target its dexterity bonus. You can bounce the shot off of multiple surfaces, taking another -4 penalty to the attack roll each time. You still must be able to see the target from where you are standing. Calculate range by adding the distance from you to the surface, and from the surface to the target.


Also, for the sniper, I would recommend giving them something like +1d6 damage for every 3 points above the enemy's AC they roll, up to a max of Character level/2 or something.

Also, while you do have something new every level, you should take away all the improvements to old abilities from the list, and then look at how often they get something NEW. For example, casters get a new set of spells to work with every other level, the fighter gets a new feat every other level, and so on. Ideally, the class would give out something new every single level, though since you get feats at levels 3/6/9/12/15/18, you could leave those levels as "dead levels" except for static number improvements.

Elfin
2009-08-24, 05:42 PM
How about using the mechanic for replacing old abilities that ToB classes have? On levels in which you do not gain a new trick, you can replace an old one.
That way, you can keep improving your tricks, so that you have a wider variety of options available.

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 05:49 PM
I think the trick mechanic as it is would be fine (I actually made it so that all archers can learn all tricks for their chosen style, eventually), but adding more tricks might still be a good idea.

Bouncing Shot is like ricochet in a way, but more focused :smallconfused:


Also, while you do have something new every level, you should take away all the improvements to old abilities from the list, and then look at how often they get something NEW. For example, casters get a new set of spells to work with every other level, the fighter gets a new feat every other level, and so on. Ideally, the class would give out something new every single level, though since you get feats at levels 3/6/9/12/15/18, you could leave those levels as "dead levels" except for static number improvements.
I see where you're going, and I like what I hear! more special abilities for my precious archer! :smallbiggrin:

AgentPaper
2009-08-24, 06:02 PM
How about this for trick shots:

Trick Shot: Before making an attack, you can choose to apply a number of tricks to that attack. Each trick has a cost associated with it, which you subtract from your attack roll. You can apply as many tricks as you want, as long as the total penalty does not exceed your base attack bonus.

Then, each trick would only be counter-balanced by the attack bonus cost associated with it. For example, the Elemental Arrow trick might have a cost of 2 for 1d6 damage, and also allow you to add another 1d6 damage of that element by increasing it's cost by another 2. The bouncing shot I outlined above would have a cost of 4, that you can increase by 4 to add another bounce. And so on and so forth.

If you do this, though, it should be an important feature of the class to increase it's chances of hitting. The rapid shot style archer can do this by increasing the number of shots he puts out, making it more likely that one will hit, and the sniper could do it by gaining bonuses to-hit, perhaps only if he has concealment from the target. Add in that, as a full round action, he can make a ranged attack with twice and many tricks as normal, and also gains +X to the attack roll, and he'll probably be doing about as much damage as the multi-shot archer.

As for numbers, I would say something like a +10 to hit over the course of the class, (ranged attacks only) and then give the sniper an extra +10 to hit with his single, powerful attack. (also starting much lower and scaling up)

Edit: Ricochet, that's the word I was thinking of!

Elfin
2009-08-24, 06:06 PM
I was thinking of doing something like that. A good idea, especially once you get to the point where your primary attacks always hit.

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 06:10 PM
I have made some edits, (continual bonus for Eagle Eyes is not there, but still extra bonus, will put it back up later) if you guys could take a look at them and give your opinion, I'll try to work out a way to add the 'trick points' in there somehow...

the main edit there was adding ranged precision damage...

Elfin
2009-08-24, 06:15 PM
Hmm...could I create the iconic archer?
As for suggestions- I think that by 20th level, you should have +10d6 precision damage and +10 Eagle Eye bonus.

Myou
2009-08-24, 06:18 PM
Mmm, I want to play it! :smallsmile:

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 06:20 PM
Funny, I was about to make a sample archer, how about I make a volley archer, and you make a sniper one.

Hmmm. That makes sense, but Eagle Eye every 2 sounds like overpowering it, and +10d6 precision damage is like sneak attack damage, but always when beyond 50ft (which will ideally always be the case)

EDIT: the samples are lvl 20...

Elfin
2009-08-24, 06:23 PM
Ok then. Sniper archer coming up...I'll have it ready by tonight.

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 06:27 PM
for ability scores, I'm using 14, 18, 12, 10, 10, 10, for ease of compare I recommend you use the same. So I'm guessing no more changes to the archer as it is then?

Myou
2009-08-24, 06:30 PM
for ability scores, I'm using 14, 18, 12, 10, 10, 10, for ease of compare I recommend you use the same. So I'm guessing no more changes to the archer as it is then?

I really think the sniper should get +10d6 precision by level 20.

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 06:34 PM
I guess so, but what's the comparative bonus for volley? extra arrows makes sense, but +10d6 is a lot and the archer gets tricks he can use indefinitely (at least for the most part).

Dienekes
2009-08-24, 06:37 PM
One final note not so much for balance, but for party usability. Precision damage as is only works 50 ft and beyond, however, in most cases the party meleer, rogue, ect. cannot work at that range. This could lead to some odd moments in the party, as the fighters would be charging forward to be able to do something, and the archer would be left back completely undefended in case someone charges him.

Myou
2009-08-24, 06:38 PM
I guess so, but what's the comparative bonus for volley? extra arrows makes sense, but +10d6 is a lot and the archer gets tricks he can use indefinitely (at least for the most part).

Doesn't the volley get +4d6 precision to every shot at that level? I think that's pretty good, assuming that the +10d6 is only for one shot.

If the 10d6 is for every shot, then I'd just give the volley a few extra shots to make up for it. :3

AgentPaper
2009-08-24, 06:41 PM
Hmm, Ranged Combat Mastery seems kinda...worthless. It's +1, maybe +2 damage. Level 20 might as well be a dead level, really.

As for the ranged options, you shouldn't try to pigeonhole the archer into attacking from far away only. Perhaps the sniper can have something like that, but he should also be a master of stealth, so that he can keep out of trouble while away from the party. The Volley archer, on the other hand, might fight more like Legolas, to use a common example. Always moving, always shooting something, though less likely to pull out his swords and hack away. The ability to shoot all the arrows they want and still move sounds like a good core feature for them. (the sniper, on the other hand, is content to fire off his one shot per turn)

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 06:42 PM
One final note not so much for balance, but for party usability. Precision damage as is only works 50 ft and beyond, however, in most cases the party meleer, rogue, ect. cannot work at that range. This could lead to some odd moments in the party, as the fighters would be charging forward to be able to do something, and the archer would be left back completely undefended in case someone charges him.

I assume so, yes, and I guess in a party, the volley style works a lot better, but for assassin-like types the sniper is great, but I think I'll make it 20ft?


Hmm, Ranged Combat Mastery seems kinda...worthless. It's +1, maybe +2 damage. Level 20 might as well be a dead level, really.
I hadn't thought of that, maybe instead of the second die interval increase an increas in # of dice, so the longbow does 2d8 damage?

Myou
2009-08-24, 06:45 PM
I assume so, yes, and I guess in a party, the volley style works a lot better, but for assassin-like types the sniper is great, but I think I'll make it 20ft?

Why not make it any range? Staying back is still a god idea because you avoid getting into melee.

AgentPaper
2009-08-24, 06:46 PM
I hadn't thought of that, maybe instead of the second die interval increase an increas in # of dice, so the longbow does 2d8 damage?

that's still a pretty pitiful capstone. I'm not sure what you should add, but it should be something that will make players go "Wow! I want to hit level 20 so I can do THAT!"

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 06:51 PM
Then I'll make it any range, add 2 dice, AND increase the dice interval! magnifique! :biggrin: (side note, would d12 go to d20:smalleek:)

DragoonWraith
2009-08-24, 06:52 PM
I think the Sniper Archer needs a way to take a Full Round Attack as a single attack, which is as good as a Volley Archer's Full Round Attack, but with one arrow, not multiple.

I'd do it with the ranged precision damage. Say, "When a Sniper Archer is 50 feet or further from a target, they may make a single attack at their highest attack, as a full-round attack, which deals the weapon's base damage a number of times equal to the number of iterative attacks they would otherwise enjoy (so a Sniper Archer with +11/+6/+1 BAB with a Composite Longbow attacks once at +11 BAB for 3d8 damage). They further add 2d6 precision damage to the attack, which increases by 2d6 every other level." The 2d6 matches the 1d6 a volley archer would get on two iterative attacks, but falls behind as the volley archer gets more attacks (which is counterbalanced by the fact that the further attacks are at lower BAB, while the full sniper damage is at the highest BAB). What do you think?

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 06:54 PM
Sorry, you lost me about halfway through your story. I understand that the sniper archer wil get one attack at extra damage, you lost me where you explained how much extra damage...

The Dark Fiddler
2009-08-24, 06:58 PM
that's still a pretty pitiful capstone. I'm not sure what you should add, but it should be something that will make players go "Wow! I want to hit level 20 so I can do THAT!"

Not sure if it's quite level 20 worthy, but two ideas I had, names pending, luckily:

Uber Snipe: When a Sniper Archer would normally make a full attack, they may instead make a single attack at their full BAB. This single arrows has all the effects of every arrow that the Sniper Archer would have shot, plus the damage of two extra arrows (including extra damage from outside affects such as magic spells and weapon enchantments.)

Uber Volley: When a Volley Archer makes a full attack, they may make an additional two attacks, one at their full BAB and one at the next highest. Bonuses apply to these shots normally.

Obviously can be scaled as needed.

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 07:03 PM
I like that idea however, I'm still waiting for an explanation from Dragoon, which might be an even better idea, don't know yet, maybe for the name: Archery Style Perfection?

The Dark Fiddler
2009-08-24, 07:05 PM
I like that idea however, I'm still waiting for an explanation from Dragoon, which might be an even better idea, don't know yet, maybe for the name: Archery Style Perfection?

Dragoon's idea is that the Sniper makes one attack. The damage is x times the amount of normal damage, where x is the normal number of attacks a full attack grants.

Therefore, if you had 4 attacks in a full attack, your attack would do 4 time the normal damage. Like my idea, I guess, but mine also give two extra attacks essentially.

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 07:08 PM
so dragoon's idea can be a regular sniper attack, while yours is the lvl 20 Archery Style Perfection, perfect, adding it in...

AgentPaper
2009-08-24, 07:19 PM
How about this for a capstone:

Eternal Archer:

All ranged weapons you use are considered one size category larger. All attacks you make ignore any kind of damage resistance, and you can create +5 Brilliant Energy, Seeking, Distance, Keen, Flaming/Icy/Shocking Burst Adamantite Arrows at-will as a free action, which last for 1d4+2 rounds after being fired.

Looks massive to new players, and it is a good ability, but in the end most will find out that they're not getting all that much better than the normal arrows they could use.

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 07:21 PM
I think I have a good capstone already, but that could be another 'capstone' at level 30? :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: the one size category larger is effectively covered by Ranged combat proficiency...

DragoonWraith
2009-08-24, 07:23 PM
The Dark Fiddler seems to have it right, you basically do all of your full-attack damage in a single attack.

So, say a level 12 Sniper Archer (+12/+7/+2 BAB) with 20 Dex and a Masterwork Longbow uses the ability:

One attack:
Attack bonus = 12 (base) + 5 (Dex) + 1 (MW weapon) = 18
Damage = 3d8 (three attacks with 1d8 Longbow) + 6d6 (precision damage)


Compare, volley archer:
Three attacks:
Attack 1:
Attack bonus = 18
Damage = 1d8 + 3d6
Attack 2:
Attack bonus = 13
Damage = 1d8 + 3d6
Attack 3:
Attack bonus = 8
Damage = 1d8 + 3d6
Average attack bonus = 13
Total potential damage = 3d8 + 9d6
The volley archer does more damage, if all of his shots hit.

Err... I assumed that this would be his Ranged Precision Damage variant, not his capstone. The problem with making it his capstone are numerous:
If he only attacks once, he only gets his precision damage once. Xd6 once versus Xd6 four to six times?
If the volley archer gains full BAB to all iteratives, and an extra two attacks besides, that completely eliminates the BAB advantage of the sniper, plus he's doing less weapon damage as well as the lower precision damage.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-08-24, 07:32 PM
I think I have a good capstone already, but that could be another 'capstone' at level 30? :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: the one size category larger is effectively covered by Ranged combat proficiency...

It could, but... epic?


Archery Style Perfection
As the archer becomes more and more focused on his style of archery, he gains the perfection needed to be so much more devastating than any other 'bowman'. At lvl 20, a Sniper archer may make a single attack at full BAB doing damage as normal, but adding damage from to possible extra arrows, dealing even more damage than normal. A Volley Archer may make a full attack action to fire the number of arrows his BAB allows him, plus one more arrow at full BAB and BAB-5 each.

This is a bit awkward in its wording, could be phrased a bit better, such as:

At level 20, a Sniper Archer may make a single attack full BAB, doing damage as normal, but adding all damage their other arrows would have done to this total. A Volley Archer instead may, when making a full attack, fire two extra arrows at full BAB and BAB-5 respectively.

Of course, mine might also be awkward. It's a constant struggle. But here, the Volley Archer gets the better end; two extra attacks at full and full -5 BAB, whilst the Sniper Archer only gets to do all their damage in one hit. I suggest my addition of also doing the damage of two extra arrows.

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 07:43 PM
The Dark Fiddler seems to have it right, you basically do all of your full-attack damage in a single attack.

So, say a level 12 Sniper Archer (+12/+7/+2 BAB) with 20 Dex and a Masterwork Longbow uses the ability:

One attack:
Attack bonus = 12 (base) + 5 (Dex) + 1 (MW weapon) = 18
Damage = 3d8 (three attacks with 1d8 Longbow) + 6d6 (precision damage)


Compare, volley archer:
Three attacks:
Attack 1:
Attack bonus = 18
Damage = 1d8 + 3d6
Attack 2:
Attack bonus = 13
Damage = 1d8 + 3d6
Attack 3:
Attack bonus = 8
Damage = 1d8 + 3d6
Average attack bonus = 13
Total potential damage = 3d8 + 9d6
The volley archer does more damage, if all of his shots hit.

Err... I assumed that this would be his Ranged Precision Damage variant, not his capstone. The problem with making it his capstone are numerous:
If he only attacks once, he only gets his precision damage once. Xd6 once versus Xd6 four to six times?
If the volley archer gains full BAB to all iteratives, and an extra two attacks besides, that completely eliminates the BAB advantage of the sniper, plus he's doing less weapon damage as well as the lower precision damage.

at lvl 12 an archer with a longbow does 1d10 damage with it, which is essentially better for the sniper.
At the capstone, a sniper does 6d10+8d6 damage (w/out mods) and volley does 1d10+4d6, times 6, at successively lower attack bonus, while it may not seem like the sniper does a whole lot of damage, against an enemy with high AC, the sniper has a lot more chance to survive because all of his damage uses the high attack bonus...

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 07:47 PM
Of course, mine might also be awkward. It's a constant struggle. But here, the Volley Archer gets the better end; two extra attacks at full and full -5 BAB, whilst the Sniper Archer only gets to do all their damage in one hit. I suggest my addition of also doing the damage of two extra arrows.
I meant that, forgot to add it in, and also: I added that special ability for snipers (all their damage in one hit) as his regular attack, he has no choice...

DragoonWraith
2009-08-24, 07:47 PM
Oh, I thought it said the volley archer's iteratives were all set to full-BAB. Which would have largely ruined the sniper archer's advantage.

Still, I feel like the sniper should get that ability earlier. It's not that huge an advantage, and seems (at least to me) to be key to the idea of a sniper. Otherwise, your sniper is shooting as many arrows as the volley archer, he's just doing it from further away...

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 07:52 PM
Made changes as to that effect, look in the new Archery Style section:

Archery Style
At 1st level an archer chooses one of two styles of archery, the Volley Archer who fights through sheer number of arrows rather than pure damage, or the Sniper Archer who fights through a single, strong, devastating shot, usually under safety of cover. Once this choice is made, it effects the progression of all further archery style benefits and trick shots.

At 1st level the Volley Archer gains the Rapid Shot feat, and the Sniper Archer gains the benefits of the Darkstalker feat, even if he does not qualify for it. A Sniper Archer who is entitled to more than one attack per round due to high BAB instead adds the damage from another arrow to his only arrow fired. This effect stacks with anything else adding damage.

EDIT: now that I think of it, I think it's completely finished :smallsmile:, could you check to see if it's balanced while I make sample archers (one volley and one sniper)?

The Dark Fiddler
2009-08-24, 07:58 PM
Made changes as to that effect, look in the new Archery Style section:

Archery Style
At 1st level an archer chooses one of two styles of archery, the Volley Archer who fights through sheer number of arrows rather than pure damage, or the Sniper Archer who fights through a single, strong, devastating shot, usually under safety of cover. Once this choice is made, it effects the progression of all further archery style benefits and trick shots.

At 1st level the Volley Archer gains the Rapid Shot feat, and the Sniper Archer gains the benefits of the Darkstalker feat, even if he does not qualify for it. A Sniper Archer who is entitled to more than one attack per round due to high BAB instead adds the damage from another arrow to his only arrow fired. This effect stacks with anything else adding damage.

Now that seems pretty good to me. So then the capstone is that the Volley can fire two extra shots, and the Sniper can add two extra arrow's worth of damage.

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 08:06 PM
exactly, in the end, the volley will be better against enemies with high HP but low AC, and the sniper for any HP and and any AC. (now for one which is good for low HP and high AC...)

As I said in the earlier post, could you review it for being balanced or not?
Meanwhile I'm done with the sample volley archer, on the the sample sniper, will post the sheet for samples in the OP

Elfin
2009-08-24, 08:08 PM
Sounds good. I'll get to work on my sniper now that I'm back on.

DragoonWraith
2009-08-24, 08:10 PM
I wouldn't specify "due to high BAB", as he may also be hasted or something. Just say "at any point when a Sniper Archer is normally entitled to multiple attacks, he instead attacks a single time for damage equal to the sum of each attack's damage" or something like that.

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 08:14 PM
That makes sense, Elvenblade, I appreciate your eagerness to make an Archer, although for comparative purposes I'd like to make my own Sample Sniper Archer. Feel free to still make yours for a possible single adventure led by [insert name of someone other than me here].

Dienekes
2009-08-24, 08:32 PM
Hoy, anyone mind if I steal some of these ideas for my own archer class I mentioned awhile back, giving due credit of course.

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 08:36 PM
No, go right on ahead, it reminded me to give credit too, will do it now :smallwink:

Elfin
2009-08-24, 08:40 PM
I can't access the sample Volley Archer.
Isn't the Wep Spec/Focus line besides Weapon Focus fighter only?

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 08:41 PM
fixing it, along with the credit...

EDIT: There, that should do it, I think it's finished now :smallbiggrin:

EDIT2: Forgot to add, since fighter is a martial class (melee) and archer is a martial class (ranged) fighter levels and archer levels in respect to feat requirements stack and are considered equal...

Elfin
2009-08-24, 08:50 PM
Ah, ok. Makes sense, was just wondering.

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 08:53 PM
Also, now that I think of it, what happened to you in the Halls of Smoke game? (since you didn't respond Sallera first NPC'd you, then just 'took care of' you, we now have 5 party members...)

DragoonWraith
2009-08-24, 08:57 PM
OK, so my only remaining comment is that you have several dead levels towards the end. That's generally not good... even if the capstone is cool enough that people don't want to PrC out, you really don't want people ever leveling up and saying "I get... some higher numbers." They should be able to mark down new abilities of some sort. Even if they're weak. And at high levels... they probably shouldn't be.

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 08:59 PM
What do you suggest then, I'm all out of ideas :smallsigh:

Dienekes
2009-08-24, 09:01 PM
Ehh, move archery style and safe shooting down a level.

Getting a new trick shot is as good as a feature, and as of now you were giving the class 2 capstones.

Lubirio
2009-08-24, 09:05 PM
I could make an 'Improved Bypass Barriers' at 13th level, and make greater somewhat better, keep Safe Shooting where it is, and put something new in 19th level.

Lubirio
2009-08-25, 06:31 PM
Sorry, for double posting, but I'm now completely done with the class, if anyone wants to use it in a campaign that allows homebrew, feel free to use it. I might even consider DMing a game allowing the Archer and other such homebrew. I am!

Lubirio
2009-10-13, 01:56 PM
Sorry for double-posting, and possibly even thread necromancy (:smalleek:), but I've added the Epic Class progression, and I'm now running a campaign with this class in it.

Here are links to both the IC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124778) and the OOC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124749) thread. :smallwink: