Flawless Weapons/Armor

[Jergmo]

I was playing Icewind Dale and came across a Flawless Two-Handed Sword (+2 THACO rather than a High-quality weapon's +1), and this gave me an idea to allow Flawless Weapons/Armor to be created.

Flawless weapons = +2 to attack
Flawless armor = -2 to armor check penalty?

Craft DC: 35
Prices
Weapon: +900 gp
Armor: +450 gp

With a Craft DC of 35, a level 5 Expert (by a realistic comparison, a level 5 Expert would be one of the greatest smiths alive) with, say, 14 Int, 8 ranks in Craft(Weaponsmithing), Masterwork tools, apprentices helping him, and Skill Focus(Weaponsmithing), the smith could create a Flawless weapon or suit of armor on a roll of 18.

Thoughts?

[Tohek]

Sounds pretty reasonable to me, and a nice bit of flavor to the game.

Notes:
- Its worth would be eclipsed by magical items that become available at the middle levels, where PCs start having more money to throw around. Until then, it's worthwile.

- If you're looking at a non-magical campaign, this would definitely be a good addition.
The new component cost as determined by the overall price of the item would be appropriate, but in a non-magical campaign, this is probably the best stuff you could ever hope to get.
In that case, the price would be even higher, unless you scaled money down.

- The DC is appropriate because items like this would be so comparatively rare.

All in all, it would make a good addition to just about any campaign.

[Lubirio]

I agree with Tohek in most respects, however, I'm thinking you could up the price a little, say +1200 to weapons, +600 to armor?

[ClockworkCrow]

I'm just going to point out that, mechanically, that is 24 lbs of gold right there Lubirio, which works out to about 362,223 USD in real monies. I mean, that's versus the initial suggestion of 20 lbs. of gold and roughly 301,840 USD. This might not be relevant, but I always find it nice to keep in mind the relative aspects of money in the game. :smalltongue: I think the rarity of such a piece of armor would potentially balance the 'smaller' cost of +900/+450 gp. Although it would be mighty handy while working within an AMF (the weapons, at least).

I will agree, though, that it provides a rather nice alternative to the magical bonuses typically tacked on to weapons and armor. And, as masterwork bonuses are eclipsed by magical bonuses, isn't overpowered in the slightest.

I might suggest more options, however, in terms of non-magical armor or weapons. If you're going to make them difficult to get, you might as well make them more flavorful than normal masterwork arms and armor. Something similar to the armor from RoS that gets better the less you move, or reduced movement penalties, or perhaps lighter effects on encumbrance. Weapons might do more damage instead, or have significantly improved HP and Hardness, or grant bonuses to Disarm/Trip/whatever.

[Thatguyoverther]

Won't it cease to be flawless the first time the weapon or armor is used in combat? If the idea is that the weapon is perfectly forged and balanced exactly right doesn't that stop working once you put a few notches in the blade. For armor it's flawless until you have to take a hammer to it and bang out all the dents and patch the holes.

[PumpkinEater]

I'm just going to point out that, mechanically, that is 24 lbs of gold right there Lubirio, which works out to about 362,223 USD in real monies. I mean, that's versus the initial suggestion of 20 lbs. of gold and roughly 301,840 USD. This might not be relevant, but I always find it nice to keep in mind the relative aspects of money in the game. :smalltongue: I think the rarity of such a piece of armor would potentially balance the 'smaller' cost of +900/+450 gp. Although it would be mighty handy while working within an AMF (the weapons, at least).

I will agree, though, that it provides a rather nice alternative to the magical bonuses typically tacked on to weapons and armor. And, as masterwork bonuses are eclipsed by magical bonuses, isn't overpowered in the slightest.

I might suggest more options, however, in terms of non-magical armor or weapons. If you're going to make them difficult to get, you might as well make them more flavorful than normal masterwork arms and armor. Something similar to the armor from RoS that gets better the less you move, or reduced movement penalties, or perhaps lighter effects on encumbrance. Weapons might do more damage instead, or have significantly improved HP and Hardness, or grant bonuses to Disarm/Trip/whatever.

Enhancement bonus costs is equal to the bonus squared x 2,000 for a weapon. 2,000 for a +1 bonus; 8,000 for a +2 bonus. Half for armor.

I think Lubirio is going for the bonus squared x 300 (the cost for a Masterwork weapon). 300 for a +1 bonus; 1,200 would be appropriate for a +2 bonus. And, again, half for armor.

[ClockworkCrow]

Enhancement bonus costs is equal to the bonus squared x 2,000 for a weapon. 2,000 for a +1 bonus; 8,000 for a +2 bonus. Half for armor.

I think Lubirio is going for the bonus squared x 300 (the cost for a Masterwork weapon). 300 for a +1 bonus; 1,200 would be appropriate for a +2 bonus. And, again, half for armor.

Which would be internally consistent, just realistically unreasonable :smallbiggrin:

[PumpkinEater]

Which would be internally consistent, just realistically unreasonable :smallbiggrin:

Definitely. According to the DMG, you could buy two small houses with a +1 Longsword, and still have more money than any peasant will ever see just because it cuts a little better and hurts a bit more.

[Boci]

Won't it cease to be flawless the first time the weapon or armor is used in combat? If the idea is that the weapon is perfectly forged and balanced exactly right doesn't that stop working once you put a few notches in the blade. For armor it's flawless until you have to take a hammer to it and bang out all the dents and patch the holes.

Logically yes, but logic is sometimes sacrificed when it would either hinder the game or decrease PCs enjoyment. Keeping track of weapons would do this, since you would need to come up with a system that details just how many armoured guards you could hack apart with a MW greatsword beofre it becomes damaged, and armour would quickly become useless.

[lesser_minion]

Definitely. According to the DMG, you could buy two small houses with a +1 Longsword, and still have more money than any peasant will ever see just because it cuts a little better and hurts a bit more.

Well, it's worth bearing in mind that magic items are meant to be extremely rare and outside of the reach of all but the elite. The cost of the components for the creation of a magic sword amount to the equivalent of 1,250 gold.

At the same time, there are plenty of real-world cases where people are convinced to pay vastly over the odds for something which provides even less 'mechanical' benefit than a D&D magical sword.

[Ashtagon]

http://project-phoenix.wikidot.com/equipment:mastercrafting

I think these rules work very well if you want an advanced system for mastercrafting.

[lesser_minion]

http://project-phoenix.wikidot.com/equipment:mastercrafting

I think these rules work very well if you want an advanced system for mastercrafting.

The second-to-last printed Dragon magazine had a pretty major article on adding exceptional weapon qualities. I think it might overemphasise the skill of bladesmiths who add something like a fuller (a groove down the middle of a blade, used to make it lighter - the material so removed contributes very little to the blade's stiffness) or a basket hilt to a weapon, however

[Thatguyoverther]

Logically yes, but logic is sometimes sacrificed when it would either hinder the game or decrease PCs enjoyment. Keeping track of weapons would do this, since you would need to come up with a system that details just how many armoured guards you could hack apart with a MW greatsword beofre it becomes damaged, and armour would quickly become useless.

You're quite right. I think I'm going to have to give my players a bent flawless sword and see what they do with it.

[Boci]

You're quite right. I think I'm going to have to give my players a bent flawless sword and see what they do with it.

If a weapon is bent I'd probably rule it to be improvised until fixed (blacksmith DC: 10, costs a silver piece)

[ClockworkCrow]

The weapon templates from..hmm..I think it was DMG II were interesting. There was one in RoS if I recall correctly as well. They were somewhat generic, but I can certainly see different regions or cities even developing certain styles of craftsmanship that could easily alter a weapon's statistics along those lines. Instead of Dwarvencraft, it might be a Celian-style rapier, or a Mvorakian Lizardfolk Battleaxe with changes to denote the particular style of the crafting civilization.

But then, a longsword could be a longsword, I suppose. I just find variation more interesting :smallwink:

[Crow]

Hey, what a good place to plug my expanded masterwork rules for weaponry and armor.

Weapons:
Inferior : -1 to hit and -1 damage
Normal : (normal)
Fine : +1 to hit
Superior : +1 to hit and +1 to damage
Masterwork : +2 to hit and +1 to damage

Optional rule for Inferior weapons : Breaks on an attack roll of "1". So a 5% chance.

Optional rule for all weapons : If a blade is commissioned as a custom piece (rather than picked up from a treasure hoard or something), it gets an additional +1 to hit (on top of all other bonuses). This is because the piece can be specifically sized and balanced for the intended wielder. This bonus only applies to the intended wielder, but can apply to another person if they are of close to the same height/build as the original owner.

The damage bonuses are small because it is hard to make a weapon actually do more damage (that is up to the wielder). It is possible however to make a weapon easier to use, which is why the highest grade gets the +2 to hit.

Crafting modifiers (add to base DC for weapon):

Inferior : -3
Normal : +0
Fine : +4
Superior : +8
Masterwork : +12

Costs:

Inferior : -50%
Normal : (normal)
Fine : +300gp
Superior : +1000gp
Masterwork : +2000gp


Armor:
Inferior : -1 AC
Normal : (normal)
Fine : -1 armor check penalty
Superior : +1 AC and -1 armor check penalty
Masterwork : +2 AC and -1 armor check penalty

Optional rule for all armor : If a suit of armor is commissioned as a custom piece (rather than picked up from a treasure hoard or something), it gets an additional -1 armor check penalty (on top of all other bonuses). This bonus only applies to the intended wearer, but can apply to another person if they are of close to the same height/build as the original owner.

Crafting modifiers (add to base DC for armor):

Inferior : -3
Normal : +0
Fine : +4
Superior : +8
Masterwork : +12

Costs:

Inferior : -50%
Normal : (normal)
Fine : +150gp
Superior : +1000gp
Masterwork : +2000gp


In actual games, it works pretty darn well. The only downside that my players brought up was the very long crafting times for some items (of course the same could be said for any item made from adamantine or such).

[Jergmo]

Okay, how about Legendary quality, rather than "Flawless"? Also, what about folded blades, which get sharper the more you use them?

Also, the Mastercrafting bit is neat, but I don't want magic weapons to be totally obsolete.

[Thatguyoverther]

Hey, what a good place to plug my expanded masterwork rules for weaponry and armor.

Weapons:
Inferior : -1 to hit and -1 damage
Normal : (normal)
Fine : +1 to hit
Superior : +1 to hit and +1 to damage
Masterwork : +2 to hit and +1 to damage

Optional rule for Inferior weapons : Breaks on an attack roll of "1". So a 5% chance.

Optional rule for all weapons : If a blade is commissioned as a custom piece (rather than picked up from a treasure hoard or something), it gets an additional +1 to hit (on top of all other bonuses). This is because the piece can be specifically sized and balanced for the intended wielder. This bonus only applies to the intended wielder, but can apply to another person if they are of close to the same height/build as the original owner.

The damage bonuses are small because it is hard to make a weapon actually do more damage (that is up to the wielder). It is possible however to make a weapon easier to use, which is why the highest grade gets the +2 to hit.

Crafting modifiers (add to base DC for weapon):

Inferior : -3
Normal : +0
Fine : +4
Superior : +8
Masterwork : +12

Costs:

Inferior : -50%
Normal : (normal)
Fine : +300gp
Superior : +1000gp
Masterwork : +2000gp


Armor:
Inferior : -1 AC
Normal : (normal)
Fine : -1 armor check penalty
Superior : +1 AC and -1 armor check penalty
Masterwork : +2 AC and -1 armor check penalty

Optional rule for all armor : If a suit of armor is commissioned as a custom piece (rather than picked up from a treasure hoard or something), it gets an additional -1 armor check penalty (on top of all other bonuses). This bonus only applies to the intended wearer, but can apply to another person if they are of close to the same height/build as the original owner.

Crafting modifiers (add to base DC for armor):

Inferior : -3
Normal : +0
Fine : +4
Superior : +8
Masterwork : +12

Costs:

Inferior : -50%
Normal : (normal)
Fine : +150gp
Superior : +1000gp
Masterwork : +2000gp


In actual games, it works pretty darn well. The only downside that my players brought up was the very long crafting times for some items (of course the same could be said for any item made from adamantine or such).

Very Cool. I might have to steal this.

[Boci]

Also, what about folded blades, which get sharper the more you use them?

How would this be represented mechanically? As long as their is a reasonable cap it woulnd't be overpowered, but even a cap at +5 damage its too good for a non-magic weapon.

How about:

Folding blade. A blade like this becomes sharper and sharper as used, until it breaks.

For every week of use, this blade gains a +1 enhancement bonus to damage. However, it also takes an equal penalty to hardness. When its hardness has been decresed by 3 or more points in this manners the blade takes an amount of damage equal to H-2 (were H is the amount of harness lost) whenever you hit with it. If the hardness or hitpoints drops to 0 the blade shatters. Hit points lost in this fashion can be restored by the apropriate craft check, but doing so also removes all penalties to hardness and bonuses to damage.

[Yora]

Flawless weapons are impossible:

If it's really good, it's very expensive.
If it's not very expesive, it's too cheap for it's power.
:smallbiggrin: