PDA

View Full Version : Expedition to Castle Ravenloft CR problems



graymachine
2009-08-24, 12:59 PM
I'm running the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft module soon and the CRs in it seem to be way off. For example, there is a 5 lvl Barbarian vampire that the PCs can encounter by wandering around (he's immune to the vampiric weakness to sunlight) and his CR is *6*. Is this a product of it being a Swords & Sorcery book (i.e. White Wolf incorrectly judging CR)? Or something else?

I think my PCs can handle the encounters, but I think the treasure/XP yield should go up. Is this a bad call? Should I instead weaken the monsters?

Thanks for your help.

arguskos
2009-08-24, 01:15 PM
The CR's are correct, the encounters are just HARD. It's a brutally mean module. Also, last I checked, it was a WotC product, not a White Wolf one. Could be wrong though, I haven't opened my copy in a while.

awa
2009-08-24, 01:44 PM
I haven't seen the modual but the standard vampire template adds 2 cr but if he has less then standard wealth for an npc of his level or lower then average stats for a barbarian they might have reduced it

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-24, 02:01 PM
The fact that it's an undead barbarian is what lowers the CR. Normally, it would be a CR 5 for a living Barbarian with no templates and an LA 0 race. With a template, the CR goes up, but because its Vampire, the CR gets lowered one step.

Vampire abilities focus on:

Cha (Dominate)
Str (Draining Con requires Grapple)
Dex (for Touch attacks, this can be forgone if you use Str to deliver level drain)
Ability to act normally (to make use of all of the abilities it provides)

Vampires give up their Con score entirely.

Barbarians require:

Str (for hitting things)
Dex (some variants, but mostly for AoOs)
Con (for Rage and HP, and maybe Will saves if they have Steadfast determination)
Ability to move around and smash face (interacts poorly with most of the Vampire's abilities, save their Gaze attack).

The Vampire template removes Con from the equation entirely. However, Undead HD and Barbarian HD are the exact same size (d12), so this is a suboptimal choice unless the Barbarian can get Unholy Toughness and effects that extend his Rage duration (3 rounds is very short, considering combats tend to last between 3 and 5 rounds).

Several of the Vampire abilities are actually very bad options for a Barbarian (level drain only works with Slam attacks, unless you have a specific weapon quality that is inferior to the Life Drinker ability from the DMG; Grappling is bad because it stalls the combat, and makes it so your Rage runs out before you kill them unless you are able to kill 2 PCs/round through grappling, thus negating Con drain; summons clutter up the field and prevent Charging, making one of the most powerful Barbarian builds tough to use; Gaseous Form is an emergency button at best; Fast Healing can be obtain through other means).


In other words, WotC can't make NPCs worth s***. And this is supposed to be a CR 6? More like CR 4, possibly a 3 if the party knows what they are doing.

Myou
2009-08-24, 02:16 PM
Ravenloft has nothing to do with White Wolf, it was originally an AD&D TSR product and the updated version, Expedition is by WotC.

I'm running Ravenloft right now, and so far the CRs have been accurate, and actually slightly lenient, I've been bumping um monster stats. I would strongly advise against more treasure.

Later encounters get more brutal, but they're all level-appropriate.

And the solitary barbarian vampire is just a total loser - he'll be slaughtered if your party has two or more melee characters.

Anyway, it's a great module and very well thought out, so just relax and enjoy it. :smallsmile:

graymachine
2009-08-24, 02:39 PM
I mentioned White Wolf because the 3e version of Expedition was put out by Swords & Sorcery, which is White Wolf's 3e Open Gaming License department.

Yeah, I didn't think about the necessity of CON for a barbarian when thinking about that encounter. Hm.

Still, that was intended as an example: Strahd is listed as a CR 15, which seems on the low side; Ignoring that he is a high (for the PCs) level caster, he is immune to all vampiric weaknesses. That is a staggering advantage.

Still, I it seems that my worries are unfounded, so I suppose we'll see how it goes.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-24, 02:51 PM
I mentioned White Wolf because the 3e version of Expedition was put out by Swords & Sorcery, which is White Wolf's 3e Open Gaming License department.

Yeah, I didn't think about the necessity of CON for a barbarian when thinking about that encounter. Hm.

Still, that was intended as an example: Strahd is listed as a CR 15, which seems on the low side; Ignoring that he is a high (for the PCs) level caster, he is immune to all vampiric weaknesses. That is a staggering advantage.

Still, I it seems that my worries are unfounded, so I suppose we'll see how it goes.
Strahd is not really supposed to be something your PCs face with any sort of hope of winning. Certainly, they can, but Strahd is intentionally under-CRed so that he'll be more formidable.

Vikazc
2009-08-24, 03:02 PM
Incidentally I just finished this module last night. In my experience...

Some of the fights are at odd CRs, but are not really overly difficult. The most dangerous fight we had was missing the 2 stone dragons at the entrance and almos have 2 PCs cooked off in he surprise round. Whereas we downed strahd in 2 rounds between our barbarian and my warmage, we then tracked him to his crypt and killed his golem in one round, before finishing him off. This is with a level 8 party mind you.

Myou
2009-08-24, 03:07 PM
Strahd gets weaker once you take away the Fanes, and in case you missed it, he dies in 3 rounds if you force him into a river. Also, staking still kills him, as does sunlight once you destroy the dayheart.

Strahd doesn't seem too deadly to me - a straight up wizard would probably be a bigger threat, because a CR 15 wizard would have level 8 spells instead of just level 5.

Another_Poet
2009-08-24, 03:15 PM
Sounds like the CR question is solved.

Regarding treasure, do not increase it. Expedition to Ravenloft is not low resource, but it is meant to be somewhat limited in gear/magic item options.