PDA

View Full Version : Flatfooted?



quick_comment
2009-08-24, 01:46 PM
Other than winning initative and a few maneuvers in shadow hand, what methods exist for making the opponent flatfooted. (Note: Not denied dex to AC - I want to stop immediate actions, not deal sneak attack)

ColdSepp
2009-08-24, 01:47 PM
Other than winning initative and a few maneuvers in shadow hand, what methods exist for making the opponent flatfooted. (Note: Not denied dex to AC - I want to stop immediate actions, not deal sneak attack)

There is a spell in SC... um... Distract Assailant, I think. Wiz/Sor/Assassin. It's a swift action spell.

tonberrian
2009-08-24, 01:53 PM
There's at least one Shadow Hand strike that does that, but the name escapes me.

deuxhero
2009-08-24, 01:54 PM
Grease on any foe with less than 5 points in balance.

Johel
2009-08-24, 02:00 PM
An tripped opponent is prone.
He can still act, mind you, but the malus are so high he will rather try to get up asap.

Many spells can make the enemy Nauseated, Paralyzed, Dazed or any other situations where he can't actually act much.

Doesn't answer your question but offers an alternative, maybe ? :smallfrown:

arkol
2009-08-24, 02:09 PM
It's amazing the amount of people who can't read, and yet, somehow still manage to reply...

:smallbiggrin:

Mongoose87
2009-08-24, 02:17 PM
White Raven Strike does it, as well.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-24, 02:20 PM
Agreed Arkol. Had any of them read the OP, they would have seen that the OP specified Flat Footed, a condition only two of the replies actually suggested.


Invisibility acts like psuedo-flat footed-ness. They can't take AoOs on you if you are invisible, unless they can otherwise detect you.

BTW, the only way to make someone Flat Footed is to prevent their Initiate count from occurring. There's a handful of ways to do this:


Shapechange into a Dire Tortoise (Sandstorm) before combat begins. You are automatically allowed to act during the surprise round thanks to WotC being idiots.

Time Hop them into a latter round.

Celerity and act again before they get their action.

Penalize their Initiative check during the Surprise round.

9mm
2009-08-24, 02:50 PM
blurstrike property also gives you limited access to cause flat-footed.

Superglucose
2009-08-24, 02:52 PM
Oh, and can I get an additional ruling on a question?

If both parties are expecting combat, are you still flat footed until your first action?

quick_comment
2009-08-24, 02:53 PM
And a second question: Other than succubus, what other really high charisma races are there?

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-24, 02:57 PM
Oh, and can I get an additional ruling on a question?

If both parties are expecting combat, are you still flat footed until your first action?

Yes. Ever see a stand-off? The first one to act usually has an advantage.

Dragonmuncher
2009-08-24, 03:07 PM
Oh, and can I get an additional ruling on a question?

If both parties are expecting combat, are you still flat footed until your first action?

You're always flatfooted until your first action in combat, but if both parties are expecting combat, I don't think there'd be a surprise round.

Johel
2009-08-24, 03:39 PM
And a second question: Other than succubus, what other really high charisma races are there?

Harpy ?
Not the best but it has charisma and use it.

Jothki
2009-08-24, 04:12 PM
I'd assume that the standard assumption for flatfootedness is that the party has just kicked down a door or had a patrol stumble across them, and neither side is immediately prepared for a fight. If anyone actually was aware in advance they get to act in the suprise round, and beyond that everyone gets their acts together in initiative order.

If you have a stare down before combat starts, it makes no sense for anyone to be flatfooted.

Can you enter "combat time" without actually taking any offensive actions? If you can, sitting through a round of that should remove any flatfootedness on both sides. If not, that's completely absurd and the designers should feel ashamed of themselves.

Darrin
2009-08-24, 04:15 PM
Grease on any foe with less than 5 points in balance.

Ice Slick (Frostburn, Cleric 1), grease for churchgoers.
Path of Frost (Dragon Magic, Druid 1), grease for treehuggers.

If that doesn't work, you can add Grease to your arcane spells by taking Arcane Disciple: Slime domain. Deities with the Slime domain include Ghaunadaur (drow), Moander (dead god of rot, requires a feat), and Ilsensine (illithid).

Marbles (A&EG p. 24, 2 SP per bag). Non-magical grease. Takes a standard action to deploy, but you can buy a monkey and train it to spread and/or throw the marbles into a designated square as a trick. This reduces it to a move action. Unseen Servants also work well for this (and you can get one all day with a Collar of Perpetual Attendance (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c).) If you have a familiar, animal companion, or wild cohort, then you can reduce it to a free action.

Feat: Confound the Big Folk (Races of the Wild p. 153). This one is interesting... against a foe two or more size categories larger than you, use Knee Striker to enter their space without provoking an AoO (thanks to Underfoot Combat). On the next round, your foe is considered flat-footed to all your attacks. The Other Killer Gnome build combines this with Iajutsu focus and a gnome quickrazor to do insane damage. Another interesting build would be a Hengeyokai (Oriental Adventures race) that turns into a sparrow (fine-sized flier, +8 size bonus on AC and attacks, +6 Dex bonus, for an AC 24 at 1st level). Now add some way to attack your opponent (Warlock's Eldritch Blast is good) and all the sneak attack damage you can get your hands on.

Feat: Improved Feint kinda works, but is usually a waste of an action. If you go into Invisible Blade PrC(CWar), I think you can improve this to a swift action, but I can't recall if the errata mucked this up or not. Scarlett Corsair PrC (Stormwrack) gets Improved Feint as a free action, but it has a recharge time of 2d4 rounds.

Johel
2009-08-24, 04:20 PM
It's amazing the amount of people who can't read, and yet, somehow still manage to reply...

:smallbiggrin:

or "I'm so smart and make snappy remarks but doesn't offer any solutions, right or wrong"

AslanCross
2009-08-24, 04:45 PM
Oh, and can I get an additional ruling on a question?

If both parties are expecting combat, are you still flat footed until your first action?

You always are flat-footed until your first action. Even if both parties are expecting combat, the other guy can still get the drop on you if he charges you first.

sofawall
2009-08-24, 05:39 PM
Let me clarify something. Do we want the enemy flat-footed against an attack, or flat-footed in general?

Flat-footed against an attack means they still can't Celerity, Wings of Cover or Abrupt Jaunt away, if that's the type of thing you were aiming to prevent.

Emy
2009-08-24, 06:58 PM
And a second question: Other than succubus, what other really high charisma races are there?

Petals. (+8 Cha, LA 2 [cohort])
If you feel like using Dragon Magazine, toss Magic-Blooded and Unseelie Fey in the mix, for a total racial Cha of +12

sofawall
2009-08-24, 07:11 PM
There was something in the Fiendish Codex 2 that just topped Succubus for Charisma.

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-24, 07:18 PM
There was something in the Fiendish Codex 2 that just topped Succubus for Charisma.

Was it the Falxugon?

Haven
2009-08-24, 07:23 PM
Other than winning initative and a few maneuvers in shadow hand, what methods exist for making the opponent flatfooted. (Note: Not denied dex to AC - I want to stop immediate actions, not deal sneak attack)


There's at least one Shadow Hand strike that does that, but the name escapes me.


It's amazing the amount of people who can't read, and yet, somehow still manage to reply...

:smallbiggrin:

Indeed.

That said--seconding Improved Feint; it's a pretty reliable way if you can pump up your bluff enough. Since you're most likely playing a rogue, Skill Mastery would probably come in handy as well.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-24, 07:25 PM
Was it the Falxugon?

No, it was the Lilitu (sic).

Yukitsu
2009-08-24, 07:38 PM
No, it was the Lilitu (sic).

That's in fiend codex 1, not 2.

A falxugon is close, but not quite as high as a succubous. Pleasure devils are the fiendish codex 2 creatures with higher charisma.

Person_Man
2009-08-24, 07:59 PM
There have been a couple different builds on Iaijutsu Focus, which also require being Flat Footed. You might want to look them up. Underfood Combat comes to mind.

Yzzyx
2009-08-24, 08:46 PM
Underfood Combat comes to mind.

The mighty Underfood Combat! Who doesn't like bonuses whenever standing below something edible?

...


Sorry, I can contribute nothing.

Seffbasilisk
2009-08-24, 10:07 PM
Ach, someone's already mentioned Improved Fient. I'd say go Invisible Blade for all it's worth to take a 10 on the bluff check as a free action to make them flatfooted.

Forbiddenwar
2009-08-25, 10:30 PM
what about acrobatic backstab, a skill trick? that makes enemies flatfooted.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-25, 10:52 PM
what about acrobatic backstab, a skill trick? that makes enemies flatfooted.

1/encounter.

Alejandro
2009-08-25, 10:58 PM
That 1/encounter works out great for me :) But I suppose it is moot if we have to be able to do it all the time.

Zaq
2009-08-26, 02:44 AM
There's a feat in Drow of the Underdark (Surprising Riposte, it's called) that makes an opponent flat-footed for one round after you feint against it and do damage. It's got a couple of prereqs (Combat Expertise and Improved Feint), but there's no limit on how often you can do it.

Person_Man
2009-08-26, 10:13 AM
The mighty Underfood Combat! Who doesn't like bonuses whenever standing below something edible?

...


Sorry, I can contribute nothing.

You're forgiven. Obviously, I meant Underfoot Combat. There's also the Acrobatic Backstab, Hidden Blade, Sudden Draw, and Escape Attack Skill Tricks from Complete Scoundrel, each of which gives you the Flat Footed (with various restrictions). Complete Warrior also has an alternate use of Sleight of Hand which lets you draw a dagger as a free action and treat your enemy as Flat Footed for your next attack after 2 rounds of fighting the same enemy with no weapon in off hand.

Also, it's worth mentioning that when combat starts each individual is Flat Footed until they act. So if you win Initiative and make them helpless somehow (Hold Person, Sleep, anything that paralyzes, Stuns, etc) then they're still Flat Footed.

Starbuck_II
2009-08-26, 11:22 AM
The mighty Underfood Combat! Who doesn't like bonuses whenever standing below something edible?

...


Sorry, I can contribute nothing.

That could be useful in a bar fight: or a cannibal (does a elf count as a cannibal if he eats dwarfs?).

sofawall
2009-08-26, 11:25 AM
I'm thinking it'd be the dwarves eating th'elves.