[3.5] Making Spell Points less overpowered and giving casters more stamina

[Myou]

Under the Spell Points variant casting a level 9 spell costs just 17 points, compared to a level 1 spell costing 1. To me this seems wrong, because spells don't scale in a linear way - higher levels spels are far better than lower ones, so normally under this variant the caster just blows all his points on high level spells ad forgets he even knows anything below level 6 or so.

I've been working on a revaluing of spells to account for the disparity in power, and to rein in high level spells a little, while also giving casters more stamina when using lower level spells.

Original idea;

I propose making the cost of a spell equal to the sum of it's level and all previous levels (I forget the name for that function).

For example;

A level 0 spell is free, a level 1 spell costs 1 (0+1).
A level 2 spell costs 3 (0+1+2).
A level 3 spell costs 6 (0+1+2+3).

A level 6 spell costs 21 (0+1+2+3+4+5+6).

A level 9 spell costs 45 (0+1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9).


I also propose that a casters gain new spell levels this cost should be slightly reduced, making low level spells very cheap, or even free, but having a negligible effect on high level ones.

My idea is that the cost of your spells decreases by half of the level of the highest spell level you have access to. Round down.

This means that at level 1 nothing happens, but at level 3, when you gain second level spells, your first level spell become free, while your second level spells cost 2 points instead of three. (2nd level spells / 2 = a cost reduction of 1.) When you got third level spells they would cost 5.

At level 7, when you get 4th level spells, your second level spells would cost 1, while your third level spells would cost 4, and your fourth level spells would cost 8. When you got fifth level spells they would cost 13.

At level 11, when you get 6th level spells, your second level spells would become free, your third level spells would cost 3, your fourth level spells would cost 7, your fifth level spells would cost you 12 and your sixth level spells would cost you 18.


By the time you got 9th level casting your spells would have the following costs;

0th- free
1st -free
2nd - free
3rd - 2
4th - 6
5th - 11
6th - 17
7th - 24
8th - 32
9th - 41


My hope is that this system would encourage casters to use lower spell levels, making them less overpowered compared to the current Spell Points system (and reducing the need for constant rest stops assuming the DM allows those) while still allowing them to 'go nova' if they want to.


I'm sorry there's no table, it just would have been a nightmare to type out. I have an excel version in table form if anyone wants to see that though.


So, what do you all think? Would this work? Is it sickeningly broken?

Edit: See post 7 for revised spreadsheet, using caster level to calculate reduction.

My finished fix (wherin I rename 'Spell Points' as 'Mana');


The base cost of a spell is equal to the sum of its level and all preceding levels. This can be expressed as N(N+1)/2 or 1 + 2 + 3 + .... + N

For example;

Level 0 = 00 (0).
Level 1 = 01 (0+1)
Level 2 = 03 (0+1+2)
Level 3 = 06 (0+1+2+3)
Level 4 = 10 (0+1+2+3+4)
Level 5 = 15 (0+1+2+3+4+5)
Level 6 = 21 (0+1+2+3+4+5+6)
Level 7 = 28 (0+1+2+3+4+5+6+7)
Level 8 = 36 (0+1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8)
Level 9 = 45 (0+1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9)


This base cost drops slightly as the spell caster rises in level. The drop in cost is based on the base caster level of the character (before any caster level boosting effects are applied).

The cost drop for each level of spells is calculated as follows; Base Spell Cost - ((Caster Level/2)-Spell Level)

This means that the highest spell level you can cast always costs its full base price, but at higher levels the lowest spell levels become free to you.

For example, when you are at caster level 2 a first level spell would be; Base Spell Cost of 1 - ((Caster Level of 2/2)-Spell Level of 1) = 1 (no reduction)

At caster level 6 a first level spell would be; Base Spell Cost of 3 - ((Caster Level of 6/2)-Spell Level of 1) = -1 (this level of spell is now free to you)
A second level spell would be; Base Spell Cost of 3 - ((Caster Level of 6/2)-Spell Level of 2) = 2 (reduction or one from base cost)
A third level spell would be; Base Spell Cost of 6 - ((Caster Level of 6/2)-Spell Level of 3) = 6 (no reduction)

This sounds complex, but I find the results to be elegant and effective. The costs per level are summarised in this spreadsheet: http://www.sendspace.com/file/rz4up4

[Temet Nosce]

Yes, it's sickeningly broken (mostly because this style of magic doesn't exist in a vacuum, with all the variant systems that don't work based on spell points) but uh... I kinda like it. This may be because I'm running a high fever and am not thinking straight however... It addresses both my irritation with high level magic feeling depressingly mundane to an extent, and my issue with running out of piddling low level spells at high levels.

I think I'd make two adjustments though. Make the level based cost adjustment only apply to spells other than your highest level ones, and make the reduction equal to half the CL of the caster.

[Myou]

Yes, it's sickeningly broken (mostly because this style of magic doesn't exist in a vacuum, with all the variant systems that don't work based on spell points) but uh... I kinda like it. This may be because I'm running a high fever and am not thinking straight however... It addresses both my irritation with high level magic feeling depressingly mundane to an extent, and my issue with running out of piddling low level spells at high levels.

I think I'd make two adjustments though. Make the level based cost adjustment only apply to spells other than your highest level ones, and make the reduction equal to half the CL of the caster.

I don't actually understand what you mean when you talk about a vacuum in your first paragraph, sorry. ^^;

But thanks!

I initially thought half caster level, but then by level 20 you'd get free level 4 spells and level 5 spell for just 5 points, which seems a bit much for me.

The reason I have the reduction affect all levels, including your highest, is because I didn't think it would be a big deal when you're still paying 40-odd mana, and because it's extra complexity. Is this a misjudgement?

Perhaps I could make the cost reduction decrease as the spell level rose, so a -3 to the cost of level 1 spells would be -2 to level 2 spells, and just -1 to levle 3, etc.

[Temet Nosce]

I don't actually understand what you mean when you talk about a vacuum in your first paragraph, sorry. ^^;

But thanks!

I'm referring other casting systems (Psionics et al). This would actually work fine if it's core only. Although come to think of it those systems are balanced against the more traditional vancian style casting so maybe it doesn't matter.


I initially thought half caster level, but then by level 20 you'd get free level 4 spells and level 5 spell for just 5 points, which seems a bit much for me.

The reason I have the reduction affect all levels, including your highest, is because I didn't think it would be a big deal when you're still paying 40-odd mana, and because it's extra complexity. Is this a misjudgement?

Perhaps I could make the cost reduction decrease as the spell level rose, so a -3 to the cost of level 1 spells would be -2 to level 2 spells, and just -1 to levle 3, etc.

It's level 20, you're on the verge of epic and at that point it seems reasonable to me. Also, this means that it will continue to increase into epic. Yeah though, it's not balanced but eh... I'm really not concerned with actually balancing magic personally.

I suppose I just want to emphasize high level spells being awe inspiring in a way but yeah it's a minimal difference I guess. Although as far as complexity, applying it to all spells except your highest level ones seems reasonably simple.

[Myou]

I'm referring other casting systems (Psionics et al). This would actually work fine if it's core only. Although come to think of it those systems are balanced against the more traditional vancian style casting so maybe it doesn't matter.

Ahhh, I see! I never even use those myself, to me it's either one or the other.


It's level 20, you're on the verge of epic and at that point it seems reasonable to me. Also, this means that it will continue to increase into epic. Yeah though, it's not balanced but eh... I'm really not concerned with actually balancing magic personally.

I suppose I just want to emphasize high level spells being awe inspiring in a way but yeah it's a minimal difference I guess. Although as far as complexity, applying it to all spells except your highest level ones seems reasonably simple.

Mmm, true, at level 20 it does make sense. I'm not hugely worried about balance, but I want it to be better balanced than the existing Spell Points system, which is too overpowered.

And I too want high level spells to be a little more special - something you pull out in emergencies rather than casting nothing else the way it is in Spell Points at the moment.

I think I'm going to go with cost reduction decreasing as the spell level rises (so a -3 to the cost of level 1 spells would be -2 to level 2 spells, and just -1 to level 3, etc.).

(An excel spreadsheet is avialable via PM with the varying costs shown in full.)

[Temet Nosce]

Ahhh, I see! I never even use those myself, to me it's either one or the other.

I've been playing to long, I need the extra options.


Mmm, true, at level 20 it does make sense. I'm not hugely worried about balance, but I want it to be better balanced than the existing Spell Points system, which is too overpowered.

And I too want high level spells to be a little more special - something you pull out in emergencies rather than casting nothing else the way it is in Spell Points at the moment.

I think I'm going to go with cost reduction decreasing as the spell level rises (so a -3 to the cost of level 1 spells would be -2 to level 2 spells, and just -1 to level 3, etc.).

(An excel spreadsheet is avialable via PM with the varying costs shown in full.)

It seems less that it's overpowered (it's casting, it's overpowered by default in 3.5), than that it doesn't scale appropriately. I absolutely agree about higher levels though.

Go ahead and shoot me the spreadsheet. Although I'm unsure whether you're basing it on CL or the earlier version.

[Myou]

I've been playing to long, I need the extra options.



It seems less that it's overpowered (it's casting, it's overpowered by default in 3.5), than that it doesn't scale appropriately. I absolutely agree about higher levels though.

Go ahead and shoot me the spreadsheet. Although I'm unsure whether you're basing it on CL or the earlier version.

Ok, sent that. Still basing it on spell level. :3

I may a well put the link here in case anyone else wants to see it.


Edit: I prefer your caster level idea actually.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/nexa9d

[J.Gellert]

After working on a spell point system for two years I just decided spell points aren't worth it. You can accomplish the same thing by letting wizards cast like sorcerers (no preparations, you can cast any spell you know by spending a slot for the day) and it's much faster both in familiarity (it's almost exactly what you've been using) and in play (less book keeping).

This knowledge may save you a couple years as well :smallwink:

But if you insist, no, it's not any more broken than this kind of thing is inherently... But if you do give free spells at level 0-1 (I was doing that as well) make sure you get rid of Cure Minor Wounds. Replace it with Stabilize or something.

In the end, even the very worst "mana" system beats vancian, so it's all cool.

[lesser_minion]

One of the main reasons why spell points are overpowered is that the designer massively underestimated the value of being able to convert many weak spells into a few stronger ones.

The points totals should be based on the best 6 - 8 spells available to the caster (essentially, his two highest levels) in order for the system to be balanced, but unfortunately you can see for yourself that that isn't the case. I ended up with the rough estimates (not playtested, unfortunately):

Wizard: 4 or 5 points/CL + smaller of CL or Intelligence score Sorcerer: 8 points/CL plus smaller of cha score or CL Cleric or Druid: 6 points/CL plus weaker of CL and wis score.


If you apply the rule of ignoring all but the best few spells here, you probably wouldn't need to also implement a discount system - the lower level spells would be all but trivial at high levels in any event.

@Firkraag: why the Vancian hate?

[Myou]

After working on a spell point system for two years I just decided spell points aren't worth it. You can accomplish the same thing by letting wizards cast like sorcerers (no preparations, you can cast any spell you know by spending a slot for the day) and it's much faster both in familiarity (it's almost exactly what you've been using) and in play (less book keeping).

This knowledge may save you a couple years as well :smallwink:

But if you insist, no, it's not any more broken than this kind of thing is inherently... But if you do give free spells at level 0-1 (I was doing that as well) make sure you get rid of Cure Minor Wounds. Replace it with Stabilize or something.

In the end, even the very worst "mana" system beats vancian, so it's all cool.

Thanks for the warning. xD

I'm glad you approve. :3
Vancian Magic is flavourful but too annoying.

I actually allow infinite healing out of battle, as long as you find somewhere safe to stop and do it.


One of the main reasons why spell points are overpowered is that the designer massively underestimated the value of being able to convert many weak spells into a few stronger ones.

The points totals should be based on the best 6 - 8 spells available to the caster (essentially, his two highest levels) in order for the system to be balanced, but unfortunately you can see for yourself that that isn't the case. I ended up with the rough estimates (not playtested, unfortunately):

Wizard: 3 points/CL + smaller of CL or Intelligence score Sorcerer: 5 points/CL plus smaller of cha score or CL Cleric or Druid: 4 points/CL plus weaker of CL and wis score.


If you apply the rule of ignoring all but the best few spells here, you probably wouldn't need to also implement a discount system - the lower level spells would be all but trivial at high levels in any event.

I did think of doing something like this, but it's just not quite how I want to model things.

Your numbers would actually make classes weaker by the way, at level 20 4 level 9 spells would be all of a wizard's points for the whole day. xD


Anyway, page three of this spreadsheet is what I'm looking at using now;

http://www.sendspace.com/file/nexa9d

[lesser_minion]

Your numbers would actually make classes weaker by the way, at level 20 4 level 9 spells would be all of a wizard's points for the whole day. xD

That's the intent behind the numbers - the assumption is that only the most powerful few spells are relevant and worth awarding spell points for. You could probably double the numbers I suggested and be a bit closer to where they are now.

Remember that a wizard can break the game without spending all of his spell slots.

[Myou]

That's the intent behind the numbers - the assumption is that only the most powerful few spells are relevant and worth awarding spell points for. You could probably double the numbers I suggested and be a bit closer to where they are now.

Remember that a wizard can break the game without spending all of his spell slots.

I prefer the scaling method I'm working on, but that can work too. ^^

[Jergmo]

So, let me get this straight. To balance a magic system that has already been updated so as to be a bit more balanced by cutting spell points by 25% or more, you're changing it so it's completely unbalanced by allowing high level folks to toss Cure Moderate Wounds, Aid, Bear's Endurance/Bull's Strength/Eagle's Splendor/Fox's Cunning, Empowered Magic Missiles, True Strike, Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement, Enlarge Person, Scorching Ray, Invisibility, False Life, and a bunch of other spells all the time every day at no cost, with additional metamagic stuff being chump change? :smallconfused:

Forget something like Meteor Swarm, I'm tossing Maximized Empowered Widened fireballs around.

Edit: Oh, and Maximized Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement. -16 strength per round, and it only costs me 6 spell points a pop!

[Myou]

So, let me get this straight. To balance a magic system that has already been updated so as to be a bit more balanced by cutting spell points by 25% or more, you're changing it so it's completely unbalanced by allowing high level folks to toss Cure Moderate Wounds, Aid, Bear's Endurance/Bull's Strength/Eagle's Splendor/Fox's Cunning, Empowered Magic Missiles, True Strike, Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement, Enlarge Person, Scorching Ray, Invisibility, False Life, and a bunch of other spells all the time every day at no cost, with additional metamagic stuff being chump change? :smallconfused:

Forget something like Meteor Swarm, I'm tossing Maximized Empowered Widened fireballs around.

Apparently you have got it wrong. :smallconfused:

I've made no change to the number of spell points characters get.

If you think that casting empowered magic missle without spending points at level 18 is broken then maybe you've never tried spells like Time Stop. Besides which, at those levels these spells are nearly free anyway under the existing system.

You don't seem to know how metamagic works. o.O
A Maximized Empowered Widened Fireball would require a level 11 slot. So you'd have to be epic to even think about casting it, and it would cost you 66 mana under my system, as opposed to 21 under the old system.

[Jergmo]

Apparently you have got it wrong. :smallconfused:

I've made no change to the number of spell points characters get.

If you think that casting empowered magic missle without spending points at level 18 is broken then maybe you've never tried spells like Time Stop. Besides which, at those levels these spells are nearly free anyway under the existing system.

You don't seem to know how metamagic works. o.O
A Maximized Empowered Widened Fireball would require a level 11 slot. So you'd have to be epic to even think about casting it, and it would cost you 66 mana under my system, as opposed to 21 under the old system.

The Spell Point system has been updated since Unearthed Arcana, having the spell points reduced - it's in the variant section of www.d20srd.com. My bad, I didn't realize Widen was +3. I was thinking of Extend. :B Well, in that case, Maximized Empowered fireballs for all! It does 1.5x as much damage as the average of a Meteor Swarm and is only level 6!

And while Empowered Magic Missiles may not be much, it's still nothing to sneeze at. That's an average of 20 (force damage, mind you), per round, for free. And that free Scorching Ray does an average of 42 damage per round on a touch attack, which you can then slap another 20 points of damage on for 2 spell points. (or 6 points if you want to do half damage to something immune to fire)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The Spell Point system has been updated since Unearthed Arcana, having the spell points reduced - it's in the variant section of www.d20srd.com. My bad, I didn't realize Widen was +3. I was thinking of Extend. :B Well, in that case, Maximized Empowered fireballs for all! It does 1.5x as much damage as the average of a Meteor Swarm and is only level 6!

And while Empowered Magic Missiles may not be much, it's still nothing to sneeze at. That's an average of 20 (force damage, mind you), per round, for free. And that free Scorching Ray does an average of 42 damage per round on a touch attack, which you can then slap another 20 points of damage on for 2 spell points. (or 6 points if you want to do half damage to something immune to fire)

Empower is +2 LA, not +1, so Empowered Magic Missiles would be 2 points.

I would be more concerned with spamming spells like Glitterdust, Grease, and various hours/level buffs.

Really, if you want to give casters some endurance, either look at Reserve Feats or Warlock/Dragonfire Adept.

[Myou]

The Spell Point system has been updated since Unearthed Arcana, having the spell points reduced - it's in the variant section of www.d20srd.com. My bad, I didn't realize Widen was +3. I was thinking of Extend. :B Well, in that case, Maximized Empowered fireballs for all! It does 1.5x as much damage as the average of a Meteor Swarm and is only level 6!

Again, you don't seem to have your figures right. Fireball is level 3. Maximise is +3, Empower is +2.

That's a level 8 slot.

Meteor Swarm does 32d6 for an average of 112, this does 90 damage.

I really don't know where you're getting these ideas, my variant does't even hae any affect on this. x_x


And while Empowered Magic Missiles may not be much, it's still nothing to sneeze at. That's an average of 20 (force damage, mind you), per round, for free. And that free Scorching Ray does an average of 42 damage per round on a touch attack, which you can then slap another 20 points of damage on for 2 spell points. (or 6 points if you want to do half damage to something immune to fire)

Given that a fighter can deal vastly more than 20 damage a turn and that you have to make 3 ranged touch attacks to do that 42 damage at level 18, it's not even impressive.

And how are you adding 20 damage for a one level increase? Empower is +2 if that's what you're thinking of.

[Myou]

Empower is +2 LA, not +1, so Empowered Magic Missiles would be 2 points.

I would be more concerned with spamming spells like Glitterdust, Grease, and various hours/level buffs.

Really, if you want to give casters some endurance, either look at Reserve Feats or Warlock/Dragonfire Adept.

Why would you worry about that? They can already do that in the Spell Points variant, grease costs 1 point. 1.

So, if that's a problem, its a problem inherent in the Spell Points variant. :smalltongue:

[Jergmo]

...Did someone up and change the cost of metamagic spells without my knowing, or what?!

Meteor Swarm = 6d6 x 4. Average of 6d6 = 3 x 6 + 3 = 21 x 4 = 84.
Maximized Empowered fireball = 6 x 10 = 60 x 1.5 = 90

[Myou]

...Did someone up and change the cost of metamagic spells without my knowing, or what?!

Meteor Swarm = 6d6 x 4. Average of 6d6 = 3 x 6 + 3 = 21 x 4 = 84.
Maximized Empowered fireball = 6 x 10 = 60 x 1.5 = 90

No. xD

Meteor Swarm = 6d6x4 + 2d6x4 = 32x3.5 = 112. Ranged Touch, no save, reflex half for anyone nearby.

[Jergmo]

No. xD

Meteor Swarm = 6d6x4 + 2d6x4 = 32x3.5 = 112. Ranged Touch, no save, reflex half for anyone nearby.

Aha. :smallfrown:

[Myou]

Aha. :smallfrown:

It's easy to forget about those extra details though. :3

Thanks for your time, I really appreciate it! :smallsmile:

[Jergmo]

It's easy to forget about those extra details though. :3

Thanks for your time, I really appreciate it! :smallsmile:

You had better! That's time I'll never be able to get back! :smallwink:

[Myou]

You had better! That's time I'll never be able to get back! :smallwink:

Mwah hah hah hah hah! x3

[Godskook]

...Did someone up and change the cost of metamagic spells without my knowing, or what?!

Meteor Swarm = 6d6 x 4. Average of 6d6 = 3 x 6 + 3 = 21 x 4 = 84.
Maximized Empowered fireball = 6 x 10 = 60 x 1.5 = 90

Iirc, Maximized Empowered Fireball = 60 + 10d6/2 ~= 60 + 35/2 = 77.5

[Myou]

Raise Thread!

I totally stole that line.

[Ashtagon]

The problem with *any* spell point system is that it encourages you to spend your spell points on the highest level spells you have available, then rest for the night.

The only real difference I can see with this system is that, once you've spammed your highest-level spells and burned your spell points, you then use the "free" spells (those spell levels that cost no mana) until your fighter runs out of hp. But the wizard won't be using those until he has no spell points left, unless one of them happens to be the exact spell needed.

I'm still undecided how best to fix this issue.

[Myou]

The problem with *any* spell point system is that it encourages you to spend your spell points on the highest level spells you have available, then rest for the night.

The only real difference I can see with this system is that, once you've spammed your highest-level spells and burned your spell points, you then use the "free" spells (those spell levels that cost no mana) until your fighter runs out of hp. But the wizard won't be using those until he has no spell points left, unless one of them happens to be the exact spell needed.

I'm still undecided how best to fix this issue.

Err, but with my system it's very expensive to cast a top level spell - you pay, for example, 45 mana to cast a level 9 spell at level 18, that's about 30% more than you pay to cast a level 8 spell and more than four times what you'd pay for a level 5 spell.

That's the whole point here - you're encouraged to conserve mana by casting mid-level spells, only using high-level spells when you have to.

[Ashtagon]

Making the highest-level spells extra-expensive merely means the wizard's five-minute workday becomes a one-minute workday. It doesn't fix the core issue of making him have staying power to last multiple encounters. Or at least, it does nothing to discourage the player from going nova then having the party go home to rest.

[Myou]

Making the highest-level spells extra-expensive merely means the wizard's five-minute workday becomes a one-minute workday. It doesn't fix the core issue of making him have staying power to last multiple encounters. Or at least, it does nothing to discourage the player from going nova then having the party go home to rest.

Actually, that is a DM failing. As a DM you can't just allow yourp layers to blow all of their resources in one go - you have to find ways to make them keep fighting, such as time limits and the like.

If you stick to the reccomended 4 equal level encounters per day the problem never arises.

[magic_unlocked]

Unsder this system, to avoid massive book keeping, I'd simply be a Warlock and get the infinate casting, and then, for more cheesy goodness, i'd get the "Supernatural Transformation" feat from savage species. Now, my spell-like ability, eldritch blast, is a supernatural ability. >_>

[Ashtagon]

Serious question - how do you make the party wizard not go nova in the first encounter? Because there is no mechanical reason he can't, except for the number of rounds in the battle and casting times.

[Myou]

Serious question - how do you make the party wizard not go nova in the first encounter? Because there is no mechanical reason he can't, except for the number of rounds in the battle and casting times.

According to your logic psioics are epicly broken. o.O

Maybe the enemy get reinforcements after a few rounds.

Maybe he's in a dungeon and there's nowhere safe to rest.

Maybe the party only have a few hours before the villain enacts his latest plan, one they must stop.

Maybe the wizard isn't such a jerk that he expects everyone to drop everything because he has arcane incontinence.

Maybe the party tell him he can rest on his own - they just spent eight hours sitting on their thumbs for his sake - they're going on ahead.

Maybe in trying to retreat to rest the players meet more foes.

http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/wandering-monster.html

In any case, this is not an issue with my rules, it's an issue with spell points in general.



Unsder this system, to avoid massive book keeping, I'd simply be a Warlock and get the infinate casting, and then, for more cheesy goodness, i'd get the "Supernatural Transformation" feat from savage species. Now, my spell-like ability, eldritch blast, is a supernatural ability. >_>

Where's the book keeping? This has less book keeping than normal Vancian casting. :smallconfused:

[magic_unlocked]

Exactly. Under your rules, I'd have book keeping. With the warlock, I avoid any and all book keeping because i have a +15 BAB and my attack is a Ranged Touch Attack that I can use whenever i feel like. Simply because you feel that spell points are over powered (and they are) and because you are going out of our way to limit that, I, as a player, feel that that is an arms race and therefore, I have to come up with my own ways to beat you. And so, the warlock answeres my call. even if you lower the BAB, trhe Eldrfitch Blast is a spell like ability usable at will. If you mess with the eldritch blast, you mess with my core casting and so, you destroy the warlock. If trhat happens, I will simply find another way to combat your arms race. >_>

[Ashtagon]

Rope trick. This beats most low-level ways of stopping a retreat. At higher levels, this is what the various teleport effects are for.

If a wizard can burn three encounters' worth of magic in a single fight and still have enough magic ready for one more "fair" fight, things are broken.

Personally, i think some kind of "trickle" mechanism is needed, so the wizard fully charged has only slightly more than one encounter worth of magic ready, but that recharges enough that four even;y spaced fights through the day can still be done. Possibly add an "overload" mechanic so that you can nova if you don't mind the risk of spells backfiring.

[magic_unlocked]

Then why not simply use the Recharge Times from Unarthed Arcana and recure a Spellcraft DC of 15 + spell level + metamagic adjustment?

[Myou]

Exactly. Under your rules, I'd have book keeping. With the warlock, I avoid any and all book keeping because i have a +15 BAB and my attack is a Ranged Touch Attack that I can use whenever i feel like. Simply because you feel that spell points are over powered (and they are) and because you are going out of our way to limit that, I, as a player, feel that that is an arms race and therefore, I have to come up with my own ways to beat you. And so, the warlock answeres my call. even if you lower the BAB, trhe Eldrfitch Blast is a spell like ability usable at will. If you mess with the eldritch blast, you mess with my core casting and so, you destroy the warlock. If trhat happens, I will simply find another way to combat your arms race. >_>

Errr, I see. :smallconfused:

I'm not sure why you see this a some sort of adversarial contest, and under my rules, as I said, you'll have less book keeping, so logically you would have taken Warlock even under the PHB rules.

In any case, if you really think this is an arms race then Warlock is a pretty silly choice, since it's weaker than full casters even with this limitation.

Anyway, a a DM I work with my players, not against them. In a way I'm glad you're not one of them - you seem to have a very different style of gaming.



Rope trick. This beats most low-level ways of stopping a retreat. At higher levels, this is what the various teleport effects are for.

Dispel Magic.

Dimensional Lock.

A few punishing attacks by magic-users or creatures after the wizard blows all his spells, and the party will quickly learn to stop metagaming and actually conserve some spells.


If a wizard can burn three encounters' worth of magic in a single fight and still have enough magic ready for one more "fair" fight, things are broken.

Well, under my rules that's a lot harder than the normal spell points rules.


Personally, i think some kind of "trickle" mechanism is needed, so the wizard fully charged has only slightly more than one encounter worth of magic ready, but that recharges enough that four even;y spaced fights through the day can still be done. Possibly add an "overload" mechanic so that you can nova if you don't mind the risk of spells backfiring.

I think magic_unlocked's suggestion my be for you. :smallsmile:

[lesser_minion]

In theory, recharge magic can work in a normal game. The current version makes casters more powerful, but with some work on the mechanics of recharging, they could work fine.

As for Rope Trick: At a high enough level, it does completely eliminate the need to find a safe place to rest. At the same time, at some point, the DM either has to start introducing proactive stories (where magic use is often less of a problem), make use of time limits (the goblins will conquer the city in two hours. Think you have time to rest?), set up ambushes and call up reinforcements (all future encounters in a particular adventure will become much harder if the players waste time).

If all of your opponents have to adapt to you, then you will win. The DM shouldn't let that be an absolute.

[magic_unlocked]

Well, that's why I would take up the feat "supernatural transformation" it changed the eldritch blast into a supernatural effect. Which is nice, since it ignores SR and provokes no AoOs for its use.

Anyhow, I was drinking when i posted that and it came off as an arms race, sorry.

[Myou]

In theory, recharge magic can work in a normal game. The current version makes casters more powerful, but with some work on the mechanics of recharging, they could work fine.

As for Rope Trick: At a high enough level, it does completely eliminate the need to find a safe place to rest. At the same time, at some point, the DM either has to start introducing proactive stories (where magic use is often less of a problem), make use of time limits (the goblins will conquer the city in two hours. Think you have time to rest?), set up ambushes and call up reinforcements (all future encounters in a particular adventure will become much harder if the players waste time).

If all of your opponents have to adapt to you, then you will win. The DM shouldn't let that be an absolute.

That seems to be what I was trying to say, yeah.


Well, that's why I would take up the feat "supernatural transformation" it changed the eldritch blast into a supernatural effect. Which is nice, since it ignores SR and provokes no AoOs for its use.

Anyhow, I was drinking when i posted that and it came off as an arms race, sorry.

That's quite alright! I was just a little baffled. xD

I'm not really worrying about Warlocks at the moment, but I would be interested to know if that's a known abuse or faily balanced.

[Amros Aldarion]

I like the scaling up by factorials (mathematically i think it's n!) as a points per spell system.

Following the rule of "Yes, and..." Two things I think might balance casters a bit more:

Tie in Sanity rules to magic (Unearthed Arcana, Call of Cthulu).

I think this works pretty well in any campaign: consider how often one hears of 'mad wizards.' Giving Sanity rules to magic makes things a bit more interesting, and ties in well with your points system.

To make things hard for casters, simply make their points from which they cast part of their sanity. This also reduces the numbers one tracks on paper and makes spell casting rarer and more dire.

Paperwork problems:

Switch the 'Moderate' level indicated on the spellcasting table for your factorial scale spell casting. Then include the following rule:

Sanity checks after encounters:

fluff-wise, the adrenaline rush of combat has worn off, and the full reality of the spells cast hits the caster:

roll a sanity check d% against the total points cast during the encounter. The sanity result is easy table/moderate (factorial) table. In other words:

If you succeed your sanity check after an encounter, you lose sum: (spell level * frequency of casting during encounter) in sanity points.

If you fail, you lose (factorial cost * frequency of casting during encounter) in sanity points.

To make everyone's life easier (and safer), take the metamagic variant as a certain number of times per day one can metamagic spells rather than increasing points costs. Again, this reduces paper work (and danger).

To reduce paperwork,

for temporary insanity

remove the dice durations for insanity and simply make insanity last for an encounter or a day,

for indefinite insanity,

require a full side-quest to restore sanity that goes hand in hand with the main mission (unraveling the madness as one adventures).

The Heal skill for Mental Therapy can be used to reduce insanity duration by category:

day to encounter to one round.

but cannot reduce quest duration insanity.

Only fulfilling certain riddles of the mind and so forth (granted with help or through active work of others) can free a character of indefinite insanities.

going nova:

With these rules, going nova means more than just having to recharge: a caster threatens their sanity and the safety of the party.

stamina

On the other hand, a caster that keeps passing sanity tests can go until he reaches negative 10 sanity.

Even if he goes temporarily or indefinitely insane, as long as his insanity doesn't make him useless, he can still cast spells all day long. The main danger is that at some point, he may go permanently insane.

So spellcasters keep their omnipotence- they can cast literally all day long- but have a high price of failure.

To give spellcasters a bit of a break, following the spell points rule, the marginal points added whenever they gain levels are added to their sanity as they progress in levels.

In the end, spellcasters who fluctuate more in their current sanity based simply on their spellcasting may still have less sanity than the rest of the party, even if they level up.

That's my two cents. Thoughts?

[Myou]

I like the scaling up by factorials (mathematically i think it's n!) as a points per spell system.

Following the rule of "Yes, and..." Two things I think might balance casters a bit more:

Tie in Sanity rules to magic (Unearthed Arcana, Call of Cthulu).

I think this works pretty well in any campaign: consider how often one hears of 'mad wizards.' Giving Sanity rules to magic makes things a bit more interesting, and ties in well with your points system.

To make things hard for casters, simply make their points from which they cast part of their sanity. This also reduces the numbers one tracks on paper and makes spell casting rarer and more dire.

Paperwork problems:

Switch the 'Moderate' level indicated on the spellcasting table for your factorial scale spell casting. Then include the following rule:

Sanity checks after encounters:

fluff-wise, the adrenaline rush of combat has worn off, and the full reality of the spells cast hits the caster:

roll a sanity check d% against the total points cast during the encounter. The sanity result is easy table/moderate (factorial) table. In other words:

If you succeed your sanity check after an encounter, you lose sum: (spell level * frequency of casting during encounter) in sanity points.

If you fail, you lose (factorial cost * frequency of casting during encounter) in sanity points.

To make everyone's life easier (and safer), take the metamagic variant as a certain number of times per day one can metamagic spells rather than increasing points costs. Again, this reduces paper work (and danger).

To reduce paperwork,

for temporary insanity

remove the dice durations for insanity and simply make insanity last for an encounter or a day,

for indefinite insanity,

require a full side-quest to restore sanity that goes hand in hand with the main mission (unraveling the madness as one adventures).

The Heal skill for Mental Therapy can be used to reduce insanity duration by category:

day to encounter to one round.

but cannot reduce quest duration insanity.

Only fulfilling certain riddles of the mind and so forth (granted with help or through active work of others) can free a character of indefinite insanities.

going nova:

With these rules, going nova means more than just having to recharge: a caster threatens their sanity and the safety of the party.

stamina

On the other hand, a caster that keeps passing sanity tests can go until he reaches negative 10 sanity.

Even if he goes temporarily or indefinitely insane, as long as his insanity doesn't make him useless, he can still cast spells all day long. The main danger is that at some point, he may go permanently insane.

So spellcasters keep their omnipotence- they can cast literally all day long- but have a high price of failure.

To give spellcasters a bit of a break, following the spell points rule, the marginal points added whenever they gain levels are added to their sanity as they progress in levels.

In the end, spellcasters who fluctuate more in their current sanity based simply on their spellcasting may still have less sanity than the rest of the party, even if they level up.

That's my two cents. Thoughts?

I thought it was n! too! But on my calculator n! did AxBxCxD instead of A+B+C+D. :smallconfused:

Anyway, thanks!


Your sanity rules look like a very good method, but not really suitable for my games I'm afraid. But thanks!
Hopefully others who run grittier games will make good use of them!

[Amros Aldarion]

oh phooey. I just checked wikipedia, and unfortunately, your calculator was right, n! does mean axbxcxd.

however, if you wanted to use it, i'm pretty sure it would guarantee very little use of spells over 6th level.

I guess the closest thing to your formula would be the sum:(columns above) function on excel.

but that's so much more wordy.

[Myou]

oh phooey. I just checked wikipedia, and unfortunately, your calculator was right, n! does mean axbxcxd.

If only I could remember my maths lessons form a few years ago - I remember that there was a function we learnt that did this, I just forget the name.


however, if you wanted to use it, i'm pretty sure it would guarantee very little use of spells over 6th level.

I guess the closest thing to your formula would be the sum:(columns above) function on excel.

but that's so much more wordy.

Actually, that's the goal here. Casters are heavily encouraged to use the lowest level spell they can afford to conserve power, instead of nuking away.

The old spell points system has a static cost increase for each spell level. This means that, sice the increase in power between levels is not so static, that casters are encouraged to cast only the higest spell level that have - it's the best use of their resources.

Under the revised rules the most powerful spelsl are very costly, and while they can just blast away with top-level spells, it means that after a few combats they'll be runing on empty. Basically they're encouraged to treat their top level spells as an ace-in-the-hole, a trump card, not their mundane normal method of attack. It makes high level spells something a little more special.

[Godskook]

If only I could remember my maths lessons form a few years ago - I remember that there was a function we learnt that did this, I just forget the name.

Iirc, you're looking for:

N(N+1)/2 = 1 + 2 + 3 + .... + N

Right? Far as I know, it has no 'official' name(at least, I don't recall learning one).

[Myou]

Iirc, you're looking for:

N(N+1)/2 = 1 + 2 + 3 + .... + N

Right? Far as I know, it has no 'official' name(at least, I don't recall learning one).

Shame. ><

I'm not sure about the formula, but I'm too tired to be sure if I'm sure. :smallsigh:

[Godskook]

Shame. ><

I'm not sure about the formula, but I'm too tired to be sure if I'm sure. :smallsigh:

What do you mean, 'not sure'? Its definitely an accurate equation, if that's what you mean.....

[Myou]

What do you mean, 'not sure'? Its definitely an accurate equation, if that's what you mean.....

Ack, I completely misunderstood what you were saying, I thought for some reason that you were modeling the cost reduction! ><

That is indeed the function, thanks! ^^

[magic_unlocked]

Why not simply give tyhem less spell points? Or use a different equation? I am assuming that you are using the fine print in spell points saying that everything cast is at minimum caster level, right? So, a sorcerer under this system, always spends 5 mana to deal 6d6. Now, if he wants to make the fireball deal 10d6 (as well as have a better caster level to beat SR) he'll need to spend an additional 4 mana.

[Myou]

Why not simply give tyhem less spell points? Or use a different equation? I am assuming that you are using the fine print in spell points saying that everything cast is at minimum caster level, right? So, a sorcerer under this system, always spends 5 mana to deal 6d6. Now, if he wants to make the fireball deal 10d6 (as well as have a better caster level to beat SR) he'll need to spend an additional 4 mana.

No, I personally don't bother with that bit of fine print.

The reason you can't just give fewer spell points is explained in the post above yours.

[lesser_minion]

Beyond "summation of an arithmetic series", I'm pretty sure that your function doesn't have a fancy name.

There is a fancy symbol for it, but not something I could represent fully using unicode.

[Myou]

Beyond "summation of an arithmetic series", I'm pretty sure that your function doesn't have a fancy name.

There is a fancy symbol for it, but not something I could represent fully using unicode.

Ooh, fancy symbol! Could you show me it in a linked image?

[Amros Aldarion]

by the by, with my 'guaranteed' line, I was being humorous: once you get past 5th level spells, if you use factorials, your spell points used go over the total one would have at 20th level.

1 1
2 2
3 6
4 24
5 120
6 720
7 5,040
8 40,320
9 362,880

So whereas your system in its current form already makes sure lower level spells get used, the actual factorial system would just be a joke... or a low-level magic setting for points.

one thought i had about your actual system was making it a bit more like the vancian(?) system, by which i mean, the vancian system guaranteed that one would have to use lower level spells because they could only use a certain number of upper level slots anyway, leaving lower levels slots intact.

The general idea would be to work backwords: one could cast more lower level spells per day, but doing so would drain the overall magic left to cast more powerful spells. However, it would not work vise-versa. One would have a limited number of high spells per day that left the lower level spells in play. I can see this working only in an altered vancian system with something like 'spontaneous casting' allowing one to select certain spell levels.

Maybe, for a points system, casters can only cast so many spells (Int/Wis/cha mod per day) whose points total exceeds their knowledge (arcana) skill? Sort of like a mental version of carry capacity?

not that your system won't deter players from going nova, just that it would be nice if there were a points system safeguard for that certain occasion - a nova limit, if you will.

[Milskidasith]

Wait, why is the sanity suggestion basically saying that it costs more sanity for a wizard to cast a high level spell if they make their throw than it could cost them to meet an evil god if they don't? Seems kind of absurd; if you don't want casters, just say "No casters, sorry."

Anyway, the problem with this system is that "free" low level spells can still be spammed around. Arcane Thesis: Enervation, with a few good metamagic feats, can become essentially free and is giving your enemies a pretty big decrease on all their abilities.

[Zeful]

Serious question - how do you make the party wizard not go nova in the first encounter? Because there is no mechanical reason he can't, except for the number of rounds in the battle and casting times.

There's no reason a Wizard's can't nova now. Which is the problem with the "five minute workday" as the only real way to stop it is to put the world on a schedule that punishes that specific playstyle.

[magic_unlocked]

Indeed, wizards tend to work with the "5 minute workday". Though, i think what would limit a caster from going nova in the first round is that, they should have to use spells from 1st level first, then work their way up to their 9th-level last. That way, you force the caster to refrain from goin nova, and, if the party can't defeat the enemy by round nine, then the caster deserves to show off his potent spells.

[Ashtagon]

One way to give a wizard a lot of the flexibility of spell points would be to make the following change from RAW:

When you memorise your spells for the day, you can choose to take one of more spells, merge their spell levels into a common pool, and use that pool to memorise an equivalent number of spell levels. Any spells memorised from this pool must be of a spell level no higher than the lowest-level spell slot used to fill this pool. For example, you could use a 3rd level spell slot and a 5th level spell slot (8 spell levels total) to memorise four 2nd spells. You could not use that pool to memorise two 4th level spells, as a 3rd level spell was used to fill the pool.

Spontaneous casters can, with a short (5 minute) rest, take an uncast spell slot and place it into their pool. A running record should be kept of how many spell levels are in the pool, as well as the lowest-level spell that has been used to fill this pool. If the pool is ever completely empty, any record of the lowest-level spell used to fill the pool is discarded. A spontaneous caster can voluntarily empty this pool, in order to clear that record. The pool is automatically cleared when the caster recovers his available spell slots normally (such as with a long rest).

[Myou]

One way to give a wizard a lot of the flexibility of spell points would be to make the following change from RAW:

When you memorise your spells for the day, you can choose to take one of more spells, merge their spell levels into a common pool, and use that pool to memorise an equivalent number of spell levels. Any spells memorised from this pool must be of a spell level no higher than the lowest-level spell slot used to fill this pool. For example, you could use a 3rd level spell slot and a 5th level spell slot (8 spell levels total) to memorise four 2nd spells. You could not use that pool to memorise two 4th level spells, as a 3rd level spell was used to fill the pool.

Spontaneous casters can, with a short (5 minute) rest, take an uncast spell slot and place it into their pool. A running record should be kept of how many spell levels are in the pool, as well as the lowest-level spell that has been used to fill this pool. If the pool is ever completely empty, any record of the lowest-level spell used to fill the pool is discarded. A spontaneous caster can voluntarily empty this pool, in order to clear that record. The pool is automatically cleared when the caster recovers his available spell slots normally (such as with a long rest).

Hmmm, well, it lets you cast more low level spells, but wizards normally wouldn't use it, because higher level spells are just better.


by the by, with my 'guaranteed' line, I was being humorous: once you get past 5th level spells, if you use factorials, your spell points used go over the total one would have at 20th level.

1 1
2 2
3 6
4 24
5 120
6 720
7 5,040
8 40,320
9 362,880

So whereas your system in its current form already makes sure lower level spells get used, the actual factorial system would just be a joke... or a low-level magic setting for points.

one thought i had about your actual system was making it a bit more like the vancian(?) system, by which i mean, the vancian system guaranteed that one would have to use lower level spells because they could only use a certain number of upper level slots anyway, leaving lower levels slots intact.

The general idea would be to work backwords: one could cast more lower level spells per day, but doing so would drain the overall magic left to cast more powerful spells. However, it would not work vise-versa. One would have a limited number of high spells per day that left the lower level spells in play. I can see this working only in an altered vancian system with something like 'spontaneous casting' allowing one to select certain spell levels.

Maybe, for a points system, casters can only cast so many spells (Int/Wis/cha mod per day) whose points total exceeds their knowledge (arcana) skill? Sort of like a mental version of carry capacity?

not that your system won't deter players from going nova, just that it would be nice if there were a points system safeguard for that certain occasion - a nova limit, if you will.

That sounds like it could work. It's not the sort of thing I'd want to use personally, but it ought to be effective if you choose to develop it. :3


Wait, why is the sanity suggestion basically saying that it costs more sanity for a wizard to cast a high level spell if they make their throw than it could cost them to meet an evil god if they don't? Seems kind of absurd; if you don't want casters, just say "No casters, sorry."

Anyway, the problem with this system is that "free" low level spells can still be spammed around. Arcane Thesis: Enervation, with a few good metamagic feats, can become essentially free and is giving your enemies a pretty big decrease on all their abilities.

I really think that's a problem with Arcane Thesis, and DMs without the guts to tell their players 'No, Arcane Thesis does not work on +0 metmagics', not a problem with my variant. Even under normal spell points that works just as well - spending about 3 points per spell when you have hundreds of points a day is no worse than spending 0 points. Not unless your DM plans on making you go for a week without rest.


There's no reason a Wizard's can't nova now. Which is the problem with the "five minute workday" as the only real way to stop it is to put the world on a schedule that punishes that specific playstyle.

Well, as said in the thread already, that's a DM responsability.


Indeed, wizards tend to work with the "5 minute workday". Though, i think what would limit a caster from going nova in the first round is that, they should have to use spells from 1st level first, then work their way up to their 9th-level last. That way, you force the caster to refrain from goin nova, and, if the party can't defeat the enemy by round nine, then the caster deserves to show off his potent spells.

Sorry, but that's far more restrictive than I'm comfortable being.

[magic_unlocked]

Sorry, but that's far more restrictive than I'm comfortable being.

well, yer just being picky, aren't you? :smalltongue: You might simply have you casters take a feat called "Going Nova"

Itr lets them, as the phrase goes, go nova, but, then they'd be exhausted at the end of combat or something. >_>

[Ashtagon]

Hmmm, well, it lets you cast more low level spells, but wizards normally wouldn't use it, because higher level spells are just better.


That is the exact point of it.

A spell point system that lets you burn low-level spells to cast high-level ones just contributes to the five-minute workday issue, which is the death of good party dynamics. Even making it draconianly expensive to do so won't prevent that - it'll just turn it into an arbitrarily-short workday instead. It certainly won't encourage low-level spell use if there's any way those spells could otherwise be used.

[magic_unlocked]

Then.... Why not use a combination of spell points AND recharge magic?

[Omegonthesane]

Recharge Magic is good for removing game-breakers even though it makes sane spellcasters last longer in a given day. I'd have to rule that Time Stop either doesn't exist or explicitly does not give you extra rounds, just extra rounds' worth of actions.
"Time Stop. Buffify. It's been 1d4+1 rounds so I cast Meteor Swarm."
"No, you can't. It's been 1 round. You just took 1d4+1 rounds of actions in that 1 round."

That also helps fix Celerity IIRC, as a method of game-breaking if not as a method of escape.
"Celerity. Time Stop. Greater Teleport outta here. Plane Shift to my personal demiplane. Wait out the time stop and the stunned round. Lose battle by default and give enemy full XP for defeating me even though I'm unharmed."

[Ashtagon]

Then.... Why not use a combination of spell points AND recharge magic?

Seems less complicated to use one patch on Vancian magic than to use two patches.

[Omegonthesane]

Seems less complicated to use one patch on Vancian magic than to use two patches.

Then use recharge magic without removing the spell charges, if you prefer Vancian to spell points. The big point of recharge magic as an anti-game breaker mage feature is outlined in my earlier post.

[Ashtagon]

My big grudge against recharge magic is simple...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargemagic.htm

That table listing the various recharge times is 22 screens high. And it doesn't account for any spell that hadn't yet been made core by the time Unearthed Arcana was published, so even more design work will be needed any time a new spell is introduced, or a player wants to use a non-core spell.

[Myou]

Just to state my position, I'm not personally interested in the recharge variant at the moment, but I encourage anyone who is to try adapting it.


well, yer just being picky, aren't you? :smalltongue: You might simply have you casters take a feat called "Going Nova"

Itr lets them, as the phrase goes, go nova, but, then they'd be exhausted at the end of combat or something. >_>

xD

I like that idea actually, that might be something I'll try to make aside from this. :3


That is the exact point of it.

A spell point system that lets you burn low-level spells to cast high-level ones just contributes to the five-minute workday issue, which is the death of good party dynamics. Even making it draconianly expensive to do so won't prevent that - it'll just turn it into an arbitrarily-short workday instead. It certainly won't encourage low-level spell use if there's any way those spells could otherwise be used.

Well, the idea here is that if a caster wants to spend all his mana on high level spells he can, but the cost rise outpaces the increase in utility, so when I, as DM enforce longer working days, the casters find that if they do 'nova', that they're left without any powerful spells for three quarters of their battles.

[Ashtagon]

Well, the idea here is that if a caster wants to spend all his mana on high level spells he can, but the cost rise outpaces the increase in utility, so when I, as DM enforce longer working days, the casters find that if they do 'nova', that they're left without any powerful spells for three quarters of their battles.

Problem here is that I can see many players nova-ing anyway, then complaining that the wizard sucks because it can't last as long as the meat-shields.

Having the consequences of a nova being more immediate (or designing the class so a nova is not really possible) prevents that. For similar reasons, if my cat pees on the carpet, I rub its nose in the mess straight away, not hours after the event, when the cat has forgotten why that corner smells at all.

[Omegonthesane]

My big grudge against recharge magic is simple...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargemagic.htm

That table listing the various recharge times is 22 screens high. And it doesn't account for any spell that hadn't yet been made core by the time Unearthed Arcana was published, so even more design work will be needed any time a new spell is introduced, or a player wants to use a non-core spell.

That is a big problem. I can only suggest one solution: pretend special recharge times don't exist for any spells ever, et voila, you have a simpler recharge mechanic that allows use of all the other spells. After all, all the other spells usually have other checks and balances like material costs, and if you're combining recharge with limited resources then there's less need to extra-nerf the big spells IMHO.


Problem here is that I can see many players nova-ing anyway, then complaining that the wizard sucks because it can't last as long as the meat-shields.

Having the consequences of a nova being more immediate (or designing the class so a nova is not really possible) prevents that. For similar reasons, if my cat pees on the carpet, I rub its nose in the mess straight away, not hours after the event, when the cat has forgotten why that corner smells at all.

Recharge magic helps with this by forcing you to wait between blasting your biggest spells. Maybe if you caused physical consequences for going below half MP, or something... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm#spellPointVariantVitalizing)

[lesser_minion]

Heavily cutting spell points and providing a specific recharge method might be a worthwhile compromise. If the number of spell points regained also depended on the number of spell points remaining, it would encourage casters to only cast a few spells (in order to be refreshed in time for the next fight).

A possible rule:

{table=head]Fraction of spell points remaining|Recovery time
3/4 or more|6 minutes
1/2 to 3/4 inclusive|24 minutes
1/4 to 3/4 inclusive|2 hours
less than 1/4|12 hours
[/table]

IIRC, factorials grow even faster than exponentials.

By the way, the symbol for summation is a capital sigma (∑).

The difficulty in representing it in unicode is that the limits of summation (the numbers or symbols representing which terms you're adding) go above and below the sigma.

I'd turn it into a picture, but OpenOffice hates me.

[Myou]

Problem here is that I can see many players nova-ing anyway, then complaining that the wizard sucks because it can't last as long as the meat-shields.

Having the consequences of a nova being more immediate (or designing the class so a nova is not really possible) prevents that. For similar reasons, if my cat pees on the carpet, I rub its nose in the mess straight away, not hours after the event, when the cat has forgotten why that corner smells at all.

Well, if I had any players that shortsighted and rude I'd just have to expalin to them that they were wasting all their mana right away, and that it was their own fault.

And if they were unable to get over it, I'd tell them to try a fighter, since they seem to suck at wizards. :smalltongue:


Heavily cutting spell points and providing a specific recharge method might be a worthwhile compromise. If the number of spell points regained also depended on the number of spell points remaining, it would encourage casters to only cast a few spells (in order to be refreshed in time for the next fight).

A possible rule:

{table=head]Fraction of spell points remaining|Recovery time
3/4 or more|6 minutes
1/2 to 3/4 inclusive|24 minutes
1/4 to 3/4 inclusive|2 hours
less than 1/4|12 hours
[/table]

Character must meditate in order to recover - any attacks against him while recovering spell points treat him as stunned.

That's a very interesting idea that I'll probably be mulling over for a while. :3

[Milskidasith]

Problem here is that I can see many players nova-ing anyway, then complaining that the wizard sucks because it can't last as long as the meat-shields.

Having the consequences of a nova being more immediate (or designing the class so a nova is not really possible) prevents that. For similar reasons, if my cat pees on the carpet, I rub its nose in the mess straight away, not hours after the event, when the cat has forgotten why that corner smells at all.


But what does your thing do? Can you answer that? It does nothing.

Spell point systems don't decrease the Wizard's workday. They increase it. Why? Because he can use his first, second, and third level spell "slots" to cast a couple extra high level spells every day. That is useful.

Giving up a ninth level spell to get a fifth level and a fourth level spell? That's the exact opposite of useful. High level spells are exponentially stronger than low level spells, so sacrificing to get them on a 1:1 basis is completely pointless.

[Ashtagon]

A high level spell is exponentially more powerful. But is only good for a single encounter, for the same general role of spell.

On the other hand, two 4th level spells can be used in two different encounters. That inherently implies a longer-lasting workday.

A wizard who has nova-d all his high level spells still has his low level spells under RAW and under my system. Under a spell point system, he has absolutely nothing left.

[magic_unlocked]

Indeed. The problem with spells is that they scale too high at higher levels. But, having a simplistic/general recharge time, while costing mana should do the trick, right?

Perhaps if you also included a Spellcraft check as well? DC = 15 + Spell Level x2.

That way, at, say, level 20, to cast a 9th-level spell, it'd have a DC of 33.

With the "Nova Feat" requirement, it should limit casters. keyword: Should

[Myou]

Perhaps if you also included a Spellcraft check as well? DC = 15 + Spell Level x2.

That way, at, say, level 20, to cast a 9th-level spell, it'd have a DC of 33.


Ooooh, I wouldn't tie anything as crucial as a class' main feature to a skill, down that path Truenaming lies. :smalltongue:

[magic_unlocked]

I suppose, however, the DC will remain flat. I'm just putting ideas on the table. You are a picky one. :smalltongue:

[Myou]

I suppose, however, the DC will remain flat. I'm just putting ideas on the table. You are a picky one. :smalltongue:

Even so, in my opinion skills should never be that crucial to using your class abilities. You should be able to cast spells without a high spellcraft mod being mandatory. xD

After all, players will just get a custom spellcraft item and make it pointless.

[Milskidasith]

A high level spell is exponentially more powerful. But is only good for a single encounter, for the same general role of spell.

On the other hand, two 4th level spells can be used in two different encounters. That inherently implies a longer-lasting workday.

A wizard who has nova-d all his high level spells still has his low level spells under RAW and under my system. Under a spell point system, he has absolutely nothing left.

No, you don't get it. By the time you have ninth level spells, fourth and fifth level spells pale in comparison (excluding Enervation, which with good metamagic reducers is godlike... Incantrix chaining maximized split enervations, anybody?). I mean, yeah, I can see using lower level spells in encounters. But I can't see giving up a ninth level spell (or the points required for it) in order to get a fifth and fourth level spell.

Unless I'm seriously misreading your system, that's exactly what it is. You give up higher level slots to get more lower level slots. That just doesn't work. At level 17, few lower level spells can win an encounter singlehandedly. Ninth level spells can. Time Stop, Gate, Wish, Miracle, Foresight (which actually works for more than long enough for multiple encounters, so it's even more useful than lower level spells), Astral Projection, Shapechange (Again, it lasts a while), all of them can and will break the game in half easily, and make you unkillable. Sacrificing them for a suped up enervation and a slightly less metamagic'd cheesed enervation is not worth it, for the most part.

[Ashtagon]

I think at this point, we must agree to disagree.

[Milskidasith]

Give me one good reason, ONE, why a wizard would ever sacrifice the ability to know the best course of action to protect himself for over three hours in exchange for two low level spells.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

The wizard might have known that the best course of action anyways and needed those 2 lower level spells to act upon it?

It's like lighting a match to find a fireplace...

[Zeful]

The wizard might have known that the best course of action anyways and needed those 2 lower level spells to act upon it?

It's like lighting a match to find a fireplace...

But you light a match to light the fireplace anyway, so if you need to find it, you won't have to light another match.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Bad example... perhaps maybe...

You've accidentally drank a deadly, but common poison. There is a bottle that says ANTIDOTE on the table. There is also a booklet nearby, that upon reading tells the reader to drink the bottle labeled ANTIDOTE to cure the poison, but you have to drink it within 5( or however long it took to read the booklet) minutes which you've burned reading the booklet to find a cure.

And you could've drank the antidote.

Edit: Perhaps it's a very windy (atleast for a match) room and the only covered place was the fireplace.

[magic_unlocked]

Bad example... perhaps maybe...

You've accidentally drank a deadly, but common poison. There is a bottle that says ANTIDOTE on the table. There is also a booklet nearby, that upon reading tells the reader to drink the bottle labeled ANTIDOTE to cure the poison, but you have to drink it within 5( or however long it took to read the booklet) minutes which you've burned reading the booklet to find a cure.

And you could've drank the antidote.

Edit: Perhaps it's a very windy (atleast for a match) room and the only covered place was the fireplace.

In the above example, any wizard worth his salt has the intelligence to avoid drinking random potions. Because, all wizards know that magic can go bad. Thus, all the wizard has to do is cast "detect poison" and the crisis is averted using a 0-level spell.

Now, if we take a 9th-level spell and convert it into 0-level spells, you would get about 18 0-level spells, since, it is mentioned in many places, that, 0-level spells cost 1/2 as much as a 1st-level spell.

But who in their right mind would want 18 0-level spells instead of 1 9th-level spell? Hmm?

[lesser_minion]

In the above example, any wizard worth his salt has the intelligence to avoid drinking random potions. Because, all wizards know that magic can go bad. Thus, all the wizard has to do is cast "detect poison" and the crisis is averted using a 0-level spell.

It was an analogy. I guess you could argue that you are actually a 1st-level wizard though.

[Milskidasith]

If you are a first level wizard then your system doesn't even apply, unless you want to burn one of your few first level spells to get a detect poison. Even then, it's not necessarily a good trade, because that spell could still save your life against something actively trying to kill you (just don't drink the poison.)

Also, there are very few poisons that are a massive threat to wizards, just due to the fact they are generally weak.

[magic_unlocked]

True. And, if you ever become epic, there are Epic Poisons. The most deadly one is one that has an inherant anti-magic quality. That stops even con-boosting items, neutralize poison, remove poison, and even Wish and Miracle.

So yer stuck with yer Fort bonus, yer base con, and good, ol' anti-toxin. lol.

[lesser_minion]

My point was that lvl1_sharnian was making an analogy - he was not specifically referring to a D&D fantasy wizard, he was referring to a typical person in real life.

I would be rather surprised and disappointed to learn that having wizard levels IRL was 'typical'

[Myou]

True. And, if you ever become epic, there are Epic Poisons. The most deadly one is one that has an inherant anti-magic quality. That stops even con-boosting items, neutralize poison, remove poison, and even Wish and Miracle.

So yer stuck with yer Fort bonus, yer base con, and good, ol' anti-toxin. lol.

Source? :smallconfused:

[magic_unlocked]

It was in a Dragon magazine or something. I know I saw it, I've used it, but, I can't currently find it. I'm looking for it as I type this. I will not fail in this quest!

*quests*

My quest is complete! I have found the link!

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20021110a

[Milskidasith]

None of those poisons, besides maybe Godsblood, is a real threat to a mage... well, the con one is a toughie, but it's not going to kill the mage, and it doesn't prevent him from stacking on CON buffs to overcome it.

Even then, an epic ward against Antimagic Field would negate them entirely... and any epic mage who doesn't have that is going to die anyway.

[magic_unlocked]

Well, wpic spells do have a chance of failing in antimagic. It's just not a good one. Whenever an epic spell is cast in an anti magic field, the field rolls 1d20 +20 with a DC against the caster level of the caster.

Using raw numbers, this means that a caster with a caster level of 30 has a 50/50 chance of failing. And, since its an anti-magic poison, con buffs of the supernatural and magical nature are rendered null. Even items such as a belt of strength and cloaks of resistance. Magic items are suppressed in antimagic fields.

Fun stuff, huh?

[Myou]

It was in a Dragon magazine or something. I know I saw it, I've used it, but, I can't currently find it. I'm looking for it as I type this. I will not fail in this quest!

*quests*

My quest is complete! I have found the link!

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20021110a

Wow, just try getting those allowed. xD

There's no way I'd use or allow the use of those in my games. But then the BoVD had some pretty poor content.

[magic_unlocked]

But... what are epic heros without epic vallains? When yer epic, comming back from the dead is simply a minor inconvienance, so, you can pull out all the stops and actually TRY to kill the players. They do have the GP, spells and other such resources to come back.

[Myou]

But... what are epic heros without epic vallains? When yer epic, comming back from the dead is simply a minor inconvienance, so, you can pull out all the stops and actually TRY to kill the players. They do have the GP, spells and other such resources to come back.

Yes, try to kill.

Not try to permanently and irreversably gimp with uncurable ability drain. :smallannoyed:

[magic_unlocked]

That's what restoration is for. It patches up characters with drained stats and other such things.

If the PCs know their stuff and actually work together instead of having a pissing contest, then you'd have a good game.

[Myou]

That's what restoration is for. It patches up characters with drained stats and other such things.

If the PCs know their stuff and actually work together instead of having a pissing contest, then you'd have a good game.

You should read the page more closely.

"Furthermore, magical means are useless in restoring ability damage inflicted by these toxins. Only rest can restore such losses."

So no, Restoration does not work. You take ability drain, it's permanent.

[magic_unlocked]

That's paradoxical. If its permanant, then not even rest can cure it.

[Myou]

That's paradoxical. If its permanant, then not even rest can cure it.

Exactly. Nothing can cure it. That's the point.

Rest only cures the ability damage.

[Amros Aldarion]

Wait, why is the sanity suggestion basically saying that it costs more sanity for a wizard to cast a high level spell if they make their throw than it could cost them to meet an evil god if they don't? Seems kind of absurd; if you don't want casters, just say "No casters, sorry."


Having looked at the tables, you're right, it does penalize them in that manner. But consider this: If you, as a normal person, said 'accio shoelace' at a shoelace on the floor, and it CAME TO YOUR HAND! I mean, what would your sane, human, normal reaction be? It states in the sanity rules, that, even when the rest of the awfulness of the world becomes normal, spellcasting does not. Having control in a world of secret meaningless makes you, in essence, stare into the abyss and have that abyss stare back (and all you're looking into is a mirror)

I think what justifies this rule system is that, yes, you can see an evil diety and go crazy, or, you can begin to believe that YOU control the cosmos itself, and with all that dark underlying comprehension, your sanity, your view, IS How the world is, YOU ARE THE CTHULU GOD...

then your head turns into a formless cephalo-pseudo-pod and you consume your own identity.

with that stream of consciousness, I would argue that casting high level spells would have more of an effect than simply seeing an evil deity: you no longer suffer just the effect of being in a meaningless, hungry universe, you become that hunger itself, the very primal maw of the universe.

that being said, it does make high level spell casting hard, but lower level spells are still doable (plus you get a nice high base casting limit at first level)

[lesser_minion]

Exactly. Nothing can cure it. That's the point.

Rest only cures the ability damage.

IIRC, an Epic spell has a chance of working even under circumstances where non-Epic magic is forbidden from working.

Saying that, it is a little harsh.

[Myou]

IIRC, an Epic spell has a chance of working even under circumstances where non-Epic magic is forbidden from working.

Saying that, it is a little harsh.

Yeah, not something I'd use. The party healer might not even know any epic spells. Let alone an epic Restoration.

[magic_unlocked]

I s'pose. But, if you have an Epic Spellcaster, you might as well consider yer game broken. Unless you still use the normal rules for casting Epic Spells, in which case, the wizard will own due to them being reliant on intelligence.

[Myou]

I s'pose. But, if you have an Epic Spellcaster, you might as well consider yer game broken. Unless you still use the normal rules for casting Epic Spells, in which case, the wizard will own due to them being reliant on intelligence.

What does a reliance on intelligence have to do with anything? :smallconfused:

And I don't use WotC epic rules, I'm making my own.

[Zeful]

Yes, try to kill.

Not try to permanently and irreversably gimp with uncurable ability drain. :smallannoyed:

You know that sounds exactly like something a villain would do to me. Why should they bother fighting the PCs at full strength when he can make them weaker?

[Myou]

You know that sounds exactly like something a villain would do to me. Why should they bother fighting the PCs at full strength when he can make them weaker?

Quite right, but as DM I'm not going to allow a poison that deals permanent ability drain with no way to undo it - that's not fair and not fun.

[Milskidasith]

Well, wpic spells do have a chance of failing in antimagic. It's just not a good one. Whenever an epic spell is cast in an anti magic field, the field rolls 1d20 +20 with a DC against the caster level of the caster.

Using raw numbers, this means that a caster with a caster level of 30 has a 50/50 chance of failing. And, since its an anti-magic poison, con buffs of the supernatural and magical nature are rendered null. Even items such as a belt of strength and cloaks of resistance. Magic items are suppressed in antimagic fields.

Fun stuff, huh?

An Epic Ward against AMF succeeds 100% of the time with no check. Yes, Epic spells can pierce an AMF. But a specific epic ward against a nonepic spell (such as AMF) will never fail. Since this is AMF in liquid form, it would be either rendered pointless, or just a normal poison.

Any Epic Wizard who doesn't have a permanent ward against AMF is either really self assured or really stupid (not that it's likely any of those poisons would ever take effect.)

Also, the AMF of the poison only negates things working on it. I'm pretty sure it doesn't entirely negate all magic items on the character. But eh, it's badly done and at epic levels AMF is a single ward away from being useless.