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oxinabox
2009-08-24, 09:22 PM
This is a bit like boilingan anthill.
my PC's just blew up sigil. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121868)

So i'm woundering how much XP they earned.
I'm not going to give it to them.
I'm considering saying you earnt X XP, you gain 1 lvl and you now gestalt.
theres only two of them so gesthault is good.

But sigil, has what? 21 million people?
Higher than average lvls.
So under the 4e XP system how much should they have earned?
i gets i could fiddle arround with some statistical distibutiong...

Giggling Ghast
2009-08-24, 09:33 PM
Well, it really depends on their level ... but I would just give them a level-appropriate reward for completing a Major Quest. After all, it's not like they fought each and every citizen of Sigil. They just set off a bomb.

Why did they do this again?

Also, there is no Gestalt in 4E.

sofawall
2009-08-24, 09:35 PM
I would go with, for the kills, exactly 0 xp.

It was either too hard and they got lucky, not deserving any, or too easy and they don't earn any.

Maybe a story reward, but nothing for the kills.

Lycan 01
2009-08-24, 09:43 PM
You could just go with a flat level boost. Round them all up to the same level with the flat XP amount needed for that level. That way, its a whole lot less math, a lot less time and trouble, and its fair to everybody.

Or you could try to calculate it, but even assuming all 21 million people were mooks and not even worth 1/10 of an XP point, you'll be doling out several hundred thousand XP. But a good majority of those people were guards, authority figures, veterans, mercenaries, adventurers, bounty hunters, experts in their respective fields, royalty, politicians, aristocrats, more than a few bad guys who would have been worth decent XP in a standard game... The list goes on and on. Even saying 1 million people were important enough to grant one XP point will basically level them up past any reasonable point.

Math is, as I've always claimed, evil. :smalleek:


Btw, make it balanced. Give 'em a level or two, just out of fairness. After all... the universe is now at war with them. Seriously. They killed 21 million people and blew up a city. SOMEBODY is gonna be pissed... They'll need all the help they can get to survive the next session, let alone campaign.

sadi
2009-08-24, 09:43 PM
I do agree with the 0 for killing individual level 0 or level 1 commoners.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-24, 09:45 PM
Regardless of how much XP you award them, remember that they can only gain 1 level at a time for such an endeavor. If they would gain enough XP to give them 2 levels, they instead gain one level and are put to 1XP below the next level's requirements.

Lycan 01
2009-08-24, 09:46 PM
Oh, right, one more thing. Alignment shifts for everbody! :smallbiggrin:


Seriously, there have to be consequences. They SHOULD be given at least one level. Usually, you give out XP in response to your PCs accomplishing something. THEY NUKED A CITY. I'd say that's an accomplishment of some sort... But still, they nuked a city. There's gotta be some sort of backlash...

Yukitsu
2009-08-24, 09:46 PM
As I said in the other thread, nothing, because you pulled your punches.

When my DM pulls his punches because he thinks the third CR 16 encounter in a day will finally challenge the ECL 9 party, and I pull an obscure item that he does in fact remember giving me to pull off an obscure or odd win, he basically drops the EXP gain to nothing. ECL+7 twice, ECL +2 once, and we got halfway to 10 in a day. Frankly, I think the decision to give us basically nothing was fair all things considered. Then again, we did have 4 optimized wizards, and a duck.

Giggling Ghast
2009-08-24, 09:47 PM
At this point, I would say the Lady of Pain re-appears and eviscerates the PCs no matter where they are. Rocks fall, everybody dies.

Lycan 01
2009-08-24, 09:49 PM
Or you could say that the whole thing was a dream, and the PC's wake up from a night of crazy drinking at some point before the whole show fell apart.

To avoid conflict, let them keep whatever levels and skills they've gained since they "dozed off." While the items they got may not be real, the experiences they had were.

I know, its anti-climactic, but its the only way to keep this campaign alive when you think about it.

Yukitsu
2009-08-24, 09:54 PM
Not necessarily. He could simply play the lady of pain as largely incidental, rather than omnipotent on Sigil as she actually is. Of course, even then the vast majority of whoever shackled her there will probably hunt the party down and axe them.

Doc Roc
2009-08-24, 09:54 PM
Edit: Read the thread, feel that my neutrality is compromised as I am in fact a Dabus. Must retract comments.

ColdSepp
2009-08-24, 09:56 PM
Uhhhhhh....
They blew up Sigil and the Lady of Pain did NOTHING?

Seconded.... They are dead, I would think.

Doc Roc
2009-08-24, 10:00 PM
I'm just gonna say that even TO doesn't normally screw around with Sigil. I think you've made a mistake trivializing this kind of behavior, because it encourages your players to kill wantonly in future campaigns without any expectation of consequences.

Yukitsu
2009-08-24, 10:03 PM
I'm just gonna say that even TO doesn't normally screw around with Sigil. I think you've made a mistake trivializing this kind of behavior, because it encourages your players to kill wantonly in future campaigns without any expectation of consequences.

May not be a problem. The lady of pain is a fairly obscure part of the game for some people. I have a buddy who thinks his god of portals would love the place for instance. My equivalent character, a mortal overdiety of philosophy is tentative trying to go there.

However, both of us realize how dangerous, for example, Asmodeus is.

Doc Roc
2009-08-24, 10:06 PM
To those of us steeped in the planes, The Lady :: makes a circular gesture:: is something special. She's the one thing in D&D that you can't simply out and out kill. I've built characters that murdered major deities, helped design and implement a couple of full fledged game-breaks, and I'd never consider attacking the Lady. She threw Vecna out and killed Aoskar with nothing more than a gesture. Tore down his temples, mazed his priests, nearly annihilated the faction he represented, and killed a deity. Just smashed 'im right into the deadbook, berk. And that's the dark of that.

~Jacob of Long Winters, who swears allegiance to the G'dsmen even if they aren't a faction proper no more.

Mongoose87
2009-08-24, 10:09 PM
To those of us steeped in planescape, The Lady :: makes a circular gesture:: is something special. She's the one thing in D&D that you can't simply out and out kill. I've built characters that murdered major deities, helped design and implement a couple of full fledged game-breaks, and I'd never consider attacking the Lady. She threw Vecna out and killed Aoskar with nothing more than a gesture. Tore down his temples, mazed his priests, nearly annihilated the faction he represented, and killed a deity. Just smashed 'im right into the deadbook, berk. And that's the dark of that.

The Gods themselves fear the Lady.

Doc Roc
2009-08-24, 10:11 PM
The Gods themselves fear the Lady.

No mimir in the planes knows whence she comes from.
The pillar of skulls pleads ignorance.
Grazz't travels with a light step when he visits the Styx Oarsmen.
Even the Drow behave.


If she's alive, your players are supposed to be dead. It's simple as that. Sorry, cutter.

erikun
2009-08-24, 10:12 PM
None. Zero. Nada. Zilch.

Characters do not get XP for incidentally killing off large numbers of people. Start a rockslide? No, you don't get XP for the dead village at the bottom of the mountain. Kick off an international war? No, you don't get XP for each soldier which dies in it.

Now, they are probably due quite a bit of XP for setting off the calamity which destroyed Sigil. How much depends on what exactly they did. Given that all they did was Magic Mouth a guard and such, I don't see them getting much reward. Sure, a nice chunk of XP, about a level appropriate encounter or so. But a creative use of the Magic Mouth spell isn't worth 10,000,000,000 XP, no matter how extreme or chaotic the end result was. They just didn't learn that much from the encounter. :smalltongue:

Of course, if you want the party suddenly 10 levels higher, this would be a good excuse to do so. But it really isn't worth said XP.

FMArthur
2009-08-24, 10:55 PM
Ah, whatever. Give them a massive amount of XP, have them level up their characters like five times, and then they are unceremoniously killed as a result of their actions. :smallwink:

Keshay
2009-08-24, 11:01 PM
Problem is, you as the DM let them destroy Sigil, of all places...

Poor DMing is not something you reward players for. Unless, of course, its by not running games anymore and letting them play for a competent DM.

oxinabox
2009-08-24, 11:07 PM
I said at the start:
the will gain one lvl and become [4e] gestault.

But just for the fun of maths:
if they had egaged every citizen in one to one combat.
How much XP?


Please leave comments regarding the realism, or the consiques to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6791710&posted=1#post6791710) (linked at start)

Gnorman
2009-08-24, 11:12 PM
I said at the start:
the will gain one lvl and become [4e] gestault.

But just for the fun of maths:
if they had egaged every citizen in one to one combat.
How much XP?


Please leave comments regarding the realism, or the consiques to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6791710&posted=1#post6791710) (linked at start)

You're asking us to estimate the experience that twenty-one million people would give your group. We have no way of knowing the various challenge ratings and ratios involved, from the lowly level one commoner to the level twenty (and perhaps beyond) wizards there. There's no "fun" in this math. It's speculation at best, and pure mindless tedium at worst.

Kylarra
2009-08-24, 11:26 PM
I said at the start:
the will gain one lvl and become [4e] gestault.

But just for the fun of maths:
if they had egaged every citizen in one to one combat.
How much XP?


Please leave comments regarding the realism, or the consiques to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6791710&posted=1#post6791710) (linked at start)

0, plus you'd all be dead by the time you finished resolving the first major zone.

chiasaur11
2009-08-24, 11:33 PM
To those of us steeped in the planes, The Lady :: makes a circular gesture:: is something special. She's the one thing in D&D that you can't simply out and out kill. I've built characters that murdered major deities, helped design and implement a couple of full fledged game-breaks, and I'd never consider attacking the Lady. She threw Vecna out and killed Aoskar with nothing more than a gesture. Tore down his temples, mazed his priests, nearly annihilated the faction he represented, and killed a deity. Just smashed 'im right into the deadbook, berk. And that's the dark of that.

~Jacob of Long Winters, who swears allegiance to the G'dsmen even if they aren't a faction proper no more.

Yeah.

She's the one deity that Pun-Pun speaks of reservedly.

Doc Roc
2009-08-24, 11:36 PM
Do you think I could sucker someone into running a planescape game? I miss playing.

Mongoose87
2009-08-24, 11:41 PM
Do you think I could sucker someone into running a planescape game? I miss playing.

I was thinking of running one for my friends. Just a little one-off thing, but a nice change of pace from the Eberron we always play.

Lamech
2009-08-24, 11:46 PM
Obviously they get about 21 million times the xp for a basic human minion. So thats what more than enough for 30? And then the lady kills them. And resurrects everyone else. And rebuilds sigil. (Can she do that, or is she a strictly breaking stuff person?) Don't blow up sigil.

Another_Poet
2009-08-24, 11:49 PM
XP is gained by overcoming challenges. How challenging was it to blow up Sigil? Base the XP on that.

Remember, you can kill things and not earn XP (such as swatting a mundane mosquito, or knifing a baby). And you can gain XP without killing things (such as surviving a trap). It's all about challenge.

Dixieboy
2009-08-25, 12:03 AM
Berk, to give you the dark of it:

Your players are dead.
The entire multiverse wants them dead, this includes the lady of pain, several major deities and devils/demons.

Giving them XP is not neccasary.

However if you do wish to not kill them, give them a level, if nothing else then just because it's such a major event.
Then you can play with them for a little bit as they should dread every single second they are alive.

FMArthur
2009-08-25, 12:43 AM
Damage control: it was all an illusion, to see if they really would try something like that. They awaken at the feet of a somewhat displeased deity.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2009-08-25, 02:15 AM
You don't gain XP from inadvertent kills. Only through direct combat and challenges as put forth by the DM. They didn't actually do anything.
Otherwise Hitler would have been to high of a level to lose WWII.

Gnorman
2009-08-25, 02:21 AM
Godwin's Law has been invoked. That means the thread is officially over.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2009-08-25, 02:31 AM
Godwin's Law has been invoked. That means the thread is officially over.

Hardy har har. Godwins law doesn't technically apply. But at the same time it does. Black hole in 3....2....1...

sofawall
2009-08-25, 02:31 AM
Didn't take long.

Gnorman
2009-08-25, 02:36 AM
Hardy har har. Godwins law doesn't technically apply. But at the same time it does. Black hole in 3....2....1...

Well, it's not wrong, nor is it absurd or out of place. It's an apt metaphor. But still... it is a Hitler reference. I'm afraid I'm going to have to stand by my declaration.

Godwwwiiiiiiin!

(As a side note, if it did work that way, Stalin might have been high-level enough to give Hitler competition)

Doc Roc
2009-08-25, 02:42 AM
I hear Rommel's build was pretty optimized, but most of the generals were just straight single class fighter. No battlefield control at all, just burst damage. Most people don't realize that Patton was referring to the Tome of Battle when he claimed to have read Rommel's book.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2009-08-25, 02:57 AM
Well, it's not wrong, nor is it absurd or out of place. It's an apt metaphor. But still... it is a Hitler reference. I'm afraid I'm going to have to stand by my declaration.

Godwwwiiiiiiin!

(As a side note, if it did work that way, Stalin might have been high-level enough to give Hitler competition)

Yuh know, Godwin's law is a bit of a fallacy, because the same could have been said about the A-bomb. America didn't level from nuking Japan, twice.
It's the same thing, Hitler is just usually what's on the back of people's minds when genocide is the subject. And genocide+XP is the subject. The genocide is just a little more inadvertent.

Doc Roc
2009-08-25, 02:59 AM
I totally leveled like sixteen times from fat-man and little boy, and I wasn't even born yet.


oh... oh god, I just made that joke. I think it's time for a lifestyle change.

sofawall
2009-08-25, 03:20 AM
You know, we shouldn't reall- wait, can't say that.


Umm... I stand by what I said earlier. 0 xp, or a small plot token xp.

Khatoblepas
2009-08-25, 07:19 AM
Lead your players back to the ruins of Sigil. If they're not in Sigil... portals will soon lead them back there. Look at your players solomnly, and say:

"This is your reward. The ruins of Sigil, laid bare and destroyed in its entirety. No escape. One by one, all the portals around you cease to function. You are trapped within the ruined city, and the remains of everyone inside Sigil a the time of the bomb. You feel the plane drift ever so slightly away from its neutrality - your actions, your presence here is the only influence it has on the city. Soon it will fall into the Lower Planes and be lost forever. Slowly, silently, and with effortless grace The Lady approaches you, and waits for you."

Let the players react the way they would. If their characters would know who the Lady is, tell them about her. Tell them about how she exiled Vecna and eviscerated Aoskar. How she keeps the cosmic balance in Sigil, and how in this domain, she is more than a God is. If the players react with awe and repentance, they are mazed within a section of the ruined city forever to show them what they have done. If not...?

"The Lady's shadow twists round her body, engulfing you in a horrific, agonising cascade of pain, flaying your flesh from your bones and transforming you into an inrecognisable mass of mortal entrails. The last thing you see before you die is The Lady, looking down at you, with the same cold, expressionless face she always wears."

The Lady kills the party because they are the only ones there, and they are now undeniably evil, making the city itself fall into the Lower Planes from their influence. The Lady, however, cannot have this, and destroys or disposes of them so that neutrality can be restored.

And then, the epilogue.

"Soon after Sigil was destroyed, Dabus began to appear, as if from nowhere, and buildings were recreated, popping up from the ground like they had always been there. It's no surprise that soon, Sigil was repopulated with strays, vagabonds and faction members who had members elsewhere at the time. It just goes to show, no matter how much Sigil changes, it always remains the same - just Sigil. The names can change, but somehow the city always finds its way back.

Funny old planes, isn't it, cutter?"

prufock
2009-08-25, 07:40 AM
Well, at maximum give them enough to gain a level and 1xp away from gaining the next level.

At minimum, give them none. The magic bomb is definitely a plot device.

Random832
2009-08-25, 07:41 AM
Why is it that in a system in which the gods can be killed by PCs, people still cling to the idea of an absolute - of something for which the answer to "can it be defeated" is a simple "no."?

Dixieboy
2009-08-25, 09:14 AM
Why is it that in a system in which the gods can be killed by PCs, people still cling to the idea of an absolute - of something for which the answer to "can it be defeated" is a simple "no."?
Because killing deities is not easy.

It's pretty damn hard.

And the lady of pain kicks deity ass without breaking a sweat.

lord_khaine
2009-08-25, 09:15 AM
Also because some crazy people have postet stats on the gods.

The Lady on the other hand, doesnt have stats, she just either kills or banish people.

Mongoose87
2009-08-25, 09:22 AM
Lead your players back to the ruins of Sigil. If they're not in Sigil... portals will soon lead them back there. Look at your players solomnly, and say:

"This is your reward. The ruins of Sigil, laid bare and destroyed in its entirety. No escape. One by one, all the portals around you cease to function. You are trapped within the ruined city, and the remains of everyone inside Sigil a the time of the bomb. You feel the plane drift ever so slightly away from its neutrality - your actions, your presence here is the only influence it has on the city. Soon it will fall into the Lower Planes and be lost forever. Slowly, silently, and with effortless grace The Lady approaches you, and waits for you."

Let the players react the way they would. If their characters would know who the Lady is, tell them about her. Tell them about how she exiled Vecna and eviscerated Aoskar. How she keeps the cosmic balance in Sigil, and how in this domain, she is more than a God is. If the players react with awe and repentance, they are mazed within a section of the ruined city forever to show them what they have done. If not...?

"The Lady's shadow twists round her body, engulfing you in a horrific, agonising cascade of pain, flaying your flesh from your bones and transforming you into an inrecognisable mass of mortal entrails. The last thing you see before you die is The Lady, looking down at you, with the same cold, expressionless face she always wears."

The Lady kills the party because they are the only ones there, and they are now undeniably evil, making the city itself fall into the Lower Planes from their influence. The Lady, however, cannot have this, and destroys or disposes of them so that neutrality can be restored.

And then, the epilogue.

"Soon after Sigil was destroyed, Dabus began to appear, as if from nowhere, and buildings were recreated, popping up from the ground like they had always been there. It's no surprise that soon, Sigil was repopulated with strays, vagabonds and faction members who had members elsewhere at the time. It just goes to show, no matter how much Sigil changes, it always remains the same - just Sigil. The names can change, but somehow the city always finds its way back.

Funny old planes, isn't it, cutter?"

I award you maximum roleplaying XP.

quick_comment
2009-08-25, 09:36 AM
Why is it that in a system in which the gods can be killed by PCs, people still cling to the idea of an absolute - of something for which the answer to "can it be defeated" is a simple "no."?

Because the Lady of Pain isnt a deity. She will be what she will be.

Killer Angel
2009-08-25, 09:52 AM
Characters do not get XP for incidentally killing off large numbers of people. Start a rockslide? No, you don't get XP for the dead village at the bottom of the mountain. Kick off an international war? No, you don't get XP for each soldier which dies in it.

Now, they are probably due quite a bit of XP for setting off the calamity which destroyed Sigil.

This is SO true. Give them a level and a little more, end of the story.



I said at the start:
the will gain one lvl and become [4e] gestault.
But just for the fun of maths:
if they had egaged every citizen in one to one combat.
How much XP?


It's no fun. It's simply impossible.
Sigil is (was, in your setting) not a town full of simple commoner. In the streets walks some of the nastyest creatures of all the planes. There are taverns, in which the only clients are devils. There are tons of wizards with their cohorts. Sigil it's unique.

Anyway, even if you toned down very heavily the Lady, and you decide that the distruption of Sigil was possible for a bunch of adventurers with a couple of low level tricks, I can live with that.
But Sigil is (was) a town of diplomacy and affairs, between forces that, outside of Sigil, are in open war.
A HUGE amount of money and magic and power, flows through that place. Many beings have interests and plans that involves Sigil, many with a developement of centuries.
The PC's literally pissed off a good half of the entire universe. They became the public enema n. 1 of all the planes: they are now the primary target of billions of veangeful creatures.

Unless you don't want to modify even the basic meaning of the City of the Doors...

kjones
2009-08-25, 10:07 AM
1,000,000,000 XP. Happy?

Now take a step back and recognize the fact that if you're playing a game in which Sigil is being blown up, you're not really playing Planescape anymore.

(Also, what does it even mean to gestalt in 4e?)

chiasaur11
2009-08-25, 10:16 AM
Why is it that in a system in which the gods can be killed by PCs, people still cling to the idea of an absolute - of something for which the answer to "can it be defeated" is a simple "no."?

Presumably the same reason Sam Vimes and Haelock Vetinari aren't listed in the assassin's guild register.

Removing some pieces breaks the game.

Eldan
2009-08-25, 10:32 AM
"Scribe every last berk in the cage? You kiddin' me, ain't you? And if you aren't, you are barmier than anything. Even if the Lady may her shadow not pass over us *makes obscure gesture* didn't interfere, how would you try and beat them? Zadara the Titan? Shemeksha the Marauder and A'kin, the Arcanaloths? Rowan Darkwood? It can't be done, it can't be done. Sure as the Spire."

Destroying Sigil is, in fact, an interesting premise for a campaign for sure. What would the effect be? Total and utter destruction of almost all planar trade. Have your players hunted by the Planar Trade Council for ever. How does one get from the Abyss to Celestia know? Three ways left, barring magic: walk the ring, which takes a lifetime and is more dangerous than anything, try and find the gatetowns and try and brave the dangers of the outlands or jump in a colour pool and battle giths and dreadnaughts on the astral trying to find another one. And colour pools are treacherous at best.
Styx, Oceanus and Yggdrasil will still be there, but without portals, life will change on the planes. Prices for goods from the elemental planes or the prime will soar, and traders will band in heavily armed caravans the size of small armies to brave the outlands when selling Bytopian Steel in Acheron. It will be an interesting world to play in.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-25, 10:37 AM
NO ITEMS, FOX ONLY, FINAL DESTINATION! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StopHavingFunGuys)

A lot of people seem to be confusing both their sentimental attachment to the lady and in-universe opinions of her, with the facts.

She is inherantly undefined. Sure, she's powerful. That's really about all anyone knows for sure, though. No-One crosses the Lady because everyone knows there's no chance of success.

That doesn't mean that there ISN'T a chance of success, that just means that no-one has yet dared to try. Well, now they have and sigil is a roiling mass of positive and negative energy tearing a rift in time and space. Perhaps the Lady is Dead, perhaps the Lady is Free. Perhaps both.

As for the idea of 'The universe now wants you dead', well, there's an element of truth in that quite probably. If nothing else, the PC's have proved themselves to be dangerous people to have around.
But they've also removed the Lady from interplanar politics, perhaps forever. You are telling me perhaps that there are no entities in the multiverse that would congratulate or thank the PC's for this? We know full well that the powers that be consider the Lady a God-Slaying abomination, after all.

For comparison, Sam Vimes and Lord Vetinari aren't on the Assassin's guild register because they are just too dangerous and more importantly, too expensive to kill. But if some young Ninja got lucky, you think that there wouldn't be a breath of relief from that direction?

As for the OP's question - It's not a fight they've won, so you don't need to stat up the entire demiplane first, or do such complex math. They've completed a Story-Arch, and acheived their mission goals. Quest-Finished-XP rules apply as normal, I'd say.

If they depopulated a City by killing every single living creature inside of it by hand, one after the other, then they would have probably netted an obscene amount of XP, but most likely died trying, due to sheer numbers.

Finally, Tide- Lolol. Trivialised wanton destruction? :D Sounds like DnD to me.

There should be consequences, of course. Various planar factions will now be aligned against them for a variety of reasons, others will perhaps be clamouring for their services. Also, however, I do like the idea of the broken husk of a demiplane that was once sigil sinking slowly into the Elemental Chaos, or something similar. It could quite possibly cause vast swathes of destruction across the planes, catastrophies to rival the spellplague.

Perhaps, with her prison destroyed and collapsed from it's place in the planes, the Lady will be able to break free and assume her true form once more, (clue - Outside of her cage, perhaps she is capable of showing some personality or motivation? Bonus points if you model the true-lady entity after the poem she was originally based on.)

Doc Roc
2009-08-25, 10:48 AM
Finally, Tide- Lolol. Trivialised wanton destruction? :D Sounds like DnD to me.


Eh, guess we play different games. :)
I guess it hits close to home to be called a SHFG. I'm a big fan of Sirlin, etc, and I used to play a number of games competitively. That said, I don't think this is a case of that. In any case, I've said my piece publicly in what I'm pretty sure is a nice way, so I think I ought to scarper.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-25, 10:54 AM
Eh, guess we play different games. :)

Actually probably not, but similar enough that I'm sure you get where I'm coming from. It's not like I've personally seen 'end of a plane' level destruction, but there's a certain disreguard for NPC life and general rights that is pretty central to a lot of PC behavior, eh? :)

Doc Roc
2009-08-25, 10:57 AM
Actually probably not, but similar enough that I'm sure you get where I'm coming from. It's not like I've personally seen 'end of a plane' level destruction, but there's a certain disreguard for NPC life and general rights that is pretty central to a lot of PC behavior, eh? :)

I actually have seen the players destroy a level of the abyss, however it was largely an accident and they nearly went down with it as collateral damage.... They accidentally triggered a macguffin I'd given them almost a year of real time earlier, in one of the very-few cases where I'd actually plotted ahead. In this case, they had almost thirty different chances to try and figure out where it was from, what it did, and when they should or shouldn't use it. So I've done something not dissimilar from this, and it did nearly destroy the campaign it happened in. In fact, I'm still not entirely sure it wasn't the thing that killed that campaign.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-25, 11:04 AM
I actually have seen the players destroy a level of the abyss, however it was largely an accident and they nearly went down with it as collateral damage.... They accidentally triggered a macguffin I'd given them almost a year of real time earlier, in one of the very-few cases where I'd actually plotted ahead. In this case, they had almost thirty different chances to try and figure out where it was from, what it did, and when they should or shouldn't use it. So I've done something not dissimilar from this, and it did nearly destroy the campaign it happened in. In fact, I'm still not entirely sure it wasn't the thing that killed that campaign.

I would personally love to be in either that or the above such campaign. My usual group is, if not usually more prone to failure, definately not competant enough to really force their will on events. My close friend struggled last sunday to find his way out of a cave.

I feel with sufficient coaching, encouragement and min-maxing, we may soon as a group be ready to take on a particularly tough wet-paper bag without undue panic.

Also, campaigns end. It is their way. Sometimes its better that they feature a particularly noteworthy bang along the way.

Kylarra
2009-08-25, 11:05 AM
Actually probably not, but similar enough that I'm sure you get where I'm coming from. It's not like I've personally seen 'end of a plane' level destruction, but there's a certain disreguard for NPC life and general rights that is pretty central to a lot of PC behavior, eh? :)Not so much in my games I'm afraid, which is sort of where I'm coming from. To a pretty decent extent, most of my players tend to be mirrors of the respect that is accorded to them (or perhaps they're just terrified that any NPC they come across has a plot point and thus don't want to tangle with them :smallwink:), however I play mostly good campaigns, which isn't to say that evil campaigns can't work out, I just tend to not run them.

Then again, after reading the few threads on this subject, his players are a thoroughly chaotic evil group, so we shouldn't really be surprised, and if they have fun blowing stuff up for no apparent reason, then obviously they should be allowed to continue. The main problem I see is, you just blew up an entire plane that was important to both the heavens and the hells, not to mention the various other planes, where do you go from there?

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-25, 11:18 AM
Not so much in my games I'm afraid, which is sort of where I'm coming from. To a pretty decent extent, most of my players tend to be mirrors of the respect that is accorded to them (or perhaps they're just terrified that any NPC they come across has a plot point and thus don't want to tangle with them :smallwink:), however I play mostly good campaigns, which isn't to say that evil campaigns can't work out, I just tend to not run them.

Then again, after reading the few threads on this subject, his players are a thoroughly chaotic evil group, so we shouldn't really be surprised, and if they have fun blowing stuff up for no apparent reason, then obviously they should be allowed to continue. The main problem I see is, you just blew up an entire plane that was important to both the heavens and the hells, not to mention the various other planes, where do you go from there?

That is a good question. Luckily, as tricky as it is, there are hundreds of possible directions that events could take, I'd say. Worth noting, they did so using a Bomb given to them by the Hells, which the Heavens knew about at least vaugely.

Also, for comparison; The player who struggled to find his way out of the cave (his tactic was to start walking. Not ask any questions, or specify a direction. He just walked. When that didn't work, he simply turned back...), well. The party had encountered a pair of hobgoblin soldiers on their way through an ancient sunken temple to fight the BBEG. The Hobgoblins were the BBEG's minions, but he'd essentially abandoned them to his treacherous second in command, and the rest of them were too busy fighting Ghouls to be an issue. The pc's took a moment to chat, learning that one of the two was wounded, and gave some help on their way. The Hobgoblin who was concious warned them of the traps that lay ahead, and wished them luck on facing their previous employer.

On their way back out of the temple, they see one of the two lying against a wall. Mortally wounded but still just about concious. He gasps through blood, seeing them approach.

The Spelunker proceeds to charge him, smashing his brains in before he could drop any exposition/help/plot. Miliseconds later, another ALSO shoots him. Just to be sure. (To be fair, the other half of the party were suitably wrong-footed by this, but you see the kind of people I have to work with? :D )

Kylarra
2009-08-25, 11:23 AM
(To be fair, the other half of the party were suitably wrong-footed by this, but you see the kind of people I have to work with? :D )Yeah, I've played with people like that.

I'm not saying that callous disregard of NPC welfare doesn't exist, just that in a[n ideal] level of suitable immersion (assuming a good party, or at least a neutral one, not a "good" one), it shouldn't exist. Of course that ideal is almost never reached, so maybe I'm just off in my fantasy land with unicorns and rainbows. :smallbiggrin:

chiasaur11
2009-08-25, 12:37 PM
For comparison, Sam Vimes and Lord Vetinari aren't on the Assassin's guild register because they are just too dangerous and more importantly, too expensive to kill. But if some young Ninja got lucky, you think that there wouldn't be a breath of relief from that direction?


Not from anyone with sense.

They'd know exactly what kind of contingencies Vetinari sets up.

And too hard, too expensive, and too powerful never stopped the guild. They contracted a hit on the HOGFATHER. It's just that Vimes or Vetinari dead would plunge the city into the kind of chaos that would pretty much kill the guild's whole place in society.

Vetinari set things up so that if he loses everybody loses. Same deal, one would assume, with Sigil.

It's a valuable thing to have running, even if you don't like the management.

Eldan
2009-08-25, 12:39 PM
The Lady doesn't even have to set up anything: she is everything that keeps Sigil from plunging into a war that will involve every faction on the planes, about who gets access to the portals that lead everywhere.

Random832
2009-08-25, 12:51 PM
Because the Lady of Pain isnt a deity.

So? Lots of things aren't deities, and none of them are "absolute you cannot defeat" things either. So why the exception? Why can't her being more powerful than the gods just mean the players would need to be higher level to defeat her in straight combat than they would for the gods?


She will be what she will be.

:smallconfused: You, um, *twitch*, do know what that phrasing is a reference to, right?


And too hard, too expensive, and too powerful never stopped the guild. They contracted a hit on the HOGFATHER. It's just that Vimes or Vetinari dead would plunge the city into the kind of chaos that would pretty much kill the guild's whole place in society.

Right, but "the city would be plunged into chaos" doesn't make him impossible for some ninja to get lucky - it just means, well, the city gets plunged into chaos, and that's the game the DM is running now.

So basically anyone powerful enough to have a chance of defeating the Lady / destroying Sigil, in a fair fight, has too much to lose even if they succeed, so no-one tries it. And that's where the PCs come in.

Yes, this is a campaign-setting-toppling event. But that's not the same as saying it shouldn't be possible. It just means that the world is now fundamentally changed, and the players will be seeing the consequences of these actions no matter where they go

Eldan
2009-08-25, 01:45 PM
Of course it's not impossible. It's incredibly hard (see: Sigil Spell, Faction War), but should be possible. Darkwood nearly got his usurption together, after all and wasn't instantly stopped. But it would topple the campaign setting in a way that would make it barely recognizable.

Lord Loss
2009-08-25, 01:54 PM
I could give you the exact number in 3.5 Edition, if I knew their level.

Eldan
2009-08-25, 01:59 PM
I can tell you the AD&D stats: Rowan Darkwood, the most powerful I can think of, is a human Cleric 20/Ranger 20 with some divine abilities given to him by Heimdall. There's titans, vampires, yugoloths, proxies, tieflings, fiends and huge, homocidal monsters in the sewers. There's mindflayers, deva, angels and demons, and that's just the mentioned NPCs. There are creatures that don't even have names yet.
So, somehow taking them all down in single combat is more or less an entire campaign. Sigil has a million permanent inhabitants, and probably about ten times as many travellers at any time. Most of them are below level 5, sure, but the rest...

kjones
2009-08-25, 03:49 PM
But that's not the same as saying it shouldn't be possible. It just means that the world is now fundamentally changed, and the players will be seeing the consequences of these actions no matter where they go

The sentiment that I'm seeing is not "it shouldn't have been possible", but "it shouldn't have been so easy". Let's look at exactly what happened - they basically put a big bomb next to some portals (a device powered basically by DM fiat) and called in a divine favor so that they themselves would be saved (also adjudicated by DM fiat). The DM then ruled that blowing up the portals would destroy the city.

Impressed? Me neither. It's not interesting or clever - it's just brute force and a DM who's willing to rule things their way.

Since there's basically no challenge being overcome here, I would award them 0 XP.

(Incidentally, if it's that easy to destroy Sigil [hell, you don't even need the resurrection clause - I'm sure there would be plenty of people willing to give their lives to do so] then why hasn't anyone done it already?)

Dixieboy
2009-08-25, 04:40 PM
The sentiment that I'm seeing is not "it shouldn't have been possible", but "it shouldn't have been so easy". Let's look at exactly what happened - they basically put a big bomb next to some portals (a device powered basically by DM fiat) and called in a divine favor so that they themselves would be saved (also adjudicated by DM fiat). The DM then ruled that blowing up the portals would destroy the city.

Impressed? Me neither. It's not interesting or clever - it's just brute force and a DM who's willing to rule things their way.

Since there's basically no challenge being overcome here, I would award them 0 XP.

(Incidentally, if it's that easy to destroy Sigil [hell, you don't even need the resurrection clause - I'm sure there would be plenty of people willing to give their lives to do so] then why hasn't anyone done it already?)
Or, or or or

Maybe it is just that easy.

But everyone THINKS it's very hard.
This is sigil after all.

Milskidasith
2009-08-25, 05:11 PM
Considering, as far as I know, positive and negative energy cancel out, not blow each other up, it probably shouldn't work.

If they caused each other to blow up, wouldn't it kill somebody to be hit with a CxW and a IxW spell in the same turn (or by people on the same initiative count?). If they destroyed each other like that, why would the sigil portals to the Positive and Negative energy planes even exist?

quick_comment
2009-08-25, 05:19 PM
:smallconfused: You, um, *twitch*, do know what that phrasing is a reference to, right?


Yes, I know. I phrased my point badly. She is not a deity in the D&D sense. D&D gods have finite power. The lady of pain, in her domain , is not limited in the same way. She has absolute power over sigil. Trying to defeat the lady of pain isnt the same as trying to defeat Pelor or Nerull. They have abilities and stats. Fighting the lady of pain is like trying to fight the DM.

Milskidasith
2009-08-25, 05:20 PM
Of course, in this case the DM said "The lady of pain can't even be bothered to deal with the really obvious stuff that would destroy sigil, let alone something complicated or involving something godlike."

Dixieboy
2009-08-25, 05:23 PM
Considering, as far as I know, positive and negative energy cancel out, not blow each other up, it probably shouldn't work.

If they caused each other to blow up, wouldn't it kill somebody to be hit with a CxW and a IxW spell in the same turn (or by people on the same initiative count?). If they destroyed each other like that, why would the sigil portals to the Positive and Negative energy planes even exist?They aren't open except when someone walks through them?

kjones
2009-08-25, 05:27 PM
They aren't open except when someone walks through them?

So what happens if people decide to simultaneously walk through each portal?

Kylarra
2009-08-25, 05:28 PM
Or, or or or

Maybe it is just that easy.

But everyone THINKS it's very hard.
This is sigil after all.

Well of course it's as easy as a DeM. :smallwink:

Dixieboy
2009-08-25, 05:37 PM
So what happens if people decide to simultaneously walk through each portal?

About 6 points worth of positive and negative energy collide?

They don't think it's going to blow up the entire place, so it won't?

Don't think too hard about stuff in Sigil, it's ridicoulus and has replaced basic physics with a system of ""If you believe you can do it, you can" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ClapYourHandsIfYouBelieve) and The rule of cool. (http://http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool)

Adding a bit more non-sense-making stuff hardly does any harm.

Milskidasith
2009-08-25, 05:43 PM
About 6 points worth of positive and negative energy collide?

They don't think it's going to blow up the entire place, so it won't?

Don't think too hard about stuff in Sigil, it's ridicoulus and has replaced basic physics with a system of ""If you believe you can do it, you can" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ClapYourHandsIfYouBelieve) and The rule of cool. (http://http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool)

Adding a bit more non-sense-making stuff hardly does any harm.

Besides, you know, killing about twenty one million people, destroying interplanar trade, and nearly killing somebody who (in Sigil) is more like a truly omniscient and omnipotent god than the other statted out gods.

Kylarra
2009-08-25, 05:45 PM
Adding a bit more non-sense-making stuff hardly does any harm.Some people prefer internal consistency (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicAIsMagicA) to weird applications of pseudo-logic.

Dixieboy
2009-08-25, 05:48 PM
Besides, you know, killing about twenty one million people, destroying interplanar trade, and nearly killing somebody who (in Sigil) is more like a truly omniscient and omnipotent god than the other statted out gods.

I agree that it makes no sense, and as you can see in this thread i have already stated that they should be dead.

But think of this: We don't know if the lady is dead, if they did any lasting harm, or if this was all just a dream.

The idea that a giant megablast would do nothing but slightly annoy the Dabus due to the extra workload for a week doesn't seem very farfetched in planescape. (Except for the "Annoyed Dabus" thing)

And even if this somehow worked it all becomes a moot point if they are enjoying the game. :smalltongue:


Some people prefer internal consistency (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicAIsMagicA) to weird applications of pseudo-logic.

How is it not internally consistent?

And Sigil functions on pseudo-logic.

kjones
2009-08-25, 05:53 PM
About 6 points worth of positive and negative energy collide?

They don't think it's going to blow up the entire place, so it won't?

Don't think too hard about stuff in Sigil, it's ridicoulus and has replaced basic physics with a system of ""If you believe you can do it, you can" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ClapYourHandsIfYouBelieve) and The rule of cool. (http://http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool)

Adding a bit more non-sense-making stuff hardly does any harm.

I understand what you're trying to say here - of course the rules don't adjudicate what happens if you blow up some portals in Sigil. The DM and the players are free to figure out what they think should happen.

However, the fact that this outcome was some stuff that the DM made up on the spot kind of cheapens it. It was a Deus Ex Machina, pure and simple.

It's like saying, "Guys, my 1st level fighter defeated an ancient red dragon! I walked up threw a spoon at him, and the rules don't say how that works, so the DM said that it went into his brain! Isn't that rad?" Forgive me for not sharing your excitement.

Adding to the ire is the fact that this happened in Sigil, under the domain of the Lady of Pain. It's one thing if you make stuff up about your own world - but this event, and its outcome, run contrary to a lot of people's ideas about how Sigil works. It's like bragging that your players took down Elminster by tying his shoelaces together.

(Bad example, I know - the above instance would be covered fairly well under the improvised weapon rules.)

Dixieboy
2009-08-25, 06:07 PM
I understand what you're trying to say here - of course the rules don't adjudicate what happens if you blow up some portals in Sigil. The DM and the players are free to figure out what they think should happen.

However, the fact that this outcome was some stuff that the DM made up on the spot kind of cheapens it. It was a Deus Ex Machina, pure and simple.

It's like saying, "Guys, my 1st level fighter defeated an ancient red dragon! I walked up threw a spoon at him, and the rules don't say how that works, so the DM said that it went into his brain! Isn't that rad?" Forgive me for not sharing your excitement.

Adding to the ire is the fact that this happened in Sigil, under the domain of the Lady of Pain. It's one thing if you make stuff up about your own world - but this event, and its outcome, run contrary to a lot of people's ideas about how Sigil works. It's like bragging that your players took down Elminster by tying his shoelaces together.

(Bad example, I know - the above instance would be covered fairly well under the improvised weapon rules.)
I believe saying that two portals wouldn't explode because of 6 HP worth of negative and positive energy collides wouldn't happen because everyone in the entire town believes that the portal system works... sort off, isn't too much of a stretch.

It was a Deus ex machina, and yes he bragged about it... sort off.
But, can you blame him?
Whenever I do something akin to disrupting the economic and diplomatic situation of the entire universe/multiverse/whatever I will brag, and you'd never hear the end of it.

And I am shocked and appaled by the idea that your very point seems to be "That's not how I believe it should work, therefore it doesn't"
In game everything is sigil is based on belief, In real life no two groups interpret everything exactly alike.

chiasaur11
2009-08-25, 06:12 PM
I believe saying that two portals wouldn't explode because of 6 HP worth of negative and positive energy collides wouldn't happen because everyone in the entire town believes that the portal system works... sort off, isn't too much of a stretch.

It was a Deus ex machina, and yes he bragged about it... sort off.
But, can you blame him?
Whenever I do something akin to disrupting the economic and diplomatic situation of the entire universe/multiverse/whatever I will brag, and you'd never hear the end of it.

And I am shocked and appaled by the idea that your very point seems to be "That's not how I believe it should work, therefore it doesn't"
In game everything is sigil is based on belief, In real life no two groups interpret everything exactly alike.

It's because it was a neat thing handed on a silver platter.

I mean, if a level one monk puches, say, Asmodeus, and the DM, after he rolls a two says "Asmodeus explodes!" then, well....

It ain't impressive.

Dixieboy
2009-08-25, 06:15 PM
It's because it was a neat thing handed on a silver platter.

I mean, if a level one monk puches, say, Asmodeus, and the DM, after he rolls a two says "Asmodeus explodes!" then, well....

It ain't impressive.Except this is more akin to the monk punching asmodeus, asmodeus tumbling over laughing.

And while he is laughing they have time to set up a giant bomb under his chair.

Milskidasith
2009-08-25, 06:30 PM
A giant bomb that only works because the DM says "it explodes and Asmodeus doesn't give a damn about the fact he could stop you from doing it."

arguskos
2009-08-25, 06:31 PM
I feel with sufficient coaching, encouragement and min-maxing, we may soon as a group be ready to take on a particularly tough wet-paper bag without undue panic.
I have the same group. Oh gods, do I have the same group. *sobs*

Eldan
2009-08-25, 06:33 PM
You know, I have a hard time imagining Asmodeus laughing at a joke. Even more so slapstick comedy involving punches.

kjones
2009-08-25, 06:39 PM
Except this is more akin to the monk punching asmodeus, asmodeus tumbling over laughing.

And while he is laughing they have time to set up a giant bomb under his chair.

Right, and if the players actually manage to get away with this... well, then your campaigns are much more comedy-themed than mine.

(Or are you seriously suggesting that Asmodeus would let them get away with something like that?)

Samb
2009-08-25, 06:42 PM
The OP just strikes me as a DM with no backbone. This stunt has been tried before and failed. When it comes down to it, the DM's imagination and wit just wasn't as deep or as vast as his PCs.

Go read Fraction Wars and see how she handled that and sit and wonder why you didn't think of that.

Kylarra
2009-08-25, 06:42 PM
Right, and if the players actually manage to get away with this... well, then your campaigns are much more comedy-themed than mine.

(Or are you seriously suggesting that Asmodeus would let them get away with something like that?)

Well in my campaigns, Asmodeus isn't as powerful and he enjoys a good joke, so sure it could happen. :smallwink::smallwink::smallwink:


Couldn't pass it up sorry.

Yukitsu
2009-08-25, 06:43 PM
Except this is more akin to the monk punching asmodeus, asmodeus tumbling over laughing.

And while he is laughing they have time to set up a giant bomb under his chair.

And equivalently, if you told us this story, no one would care, because we all understand the rules and CR tables well enough to know that this simply doesn't work.

What with how you don't fight Asmodeus under the rules, but merely an aspect, that this aspect automatically dominates anyone that comes within 20 feet of him, that he has a boatload of hit points, and that bombs as written in D20 modern cap out at something like DC 15 reflex half, which frankly, your PCs can't carry enough of following the weight and encumbrance rules at that level, let alone set up with a succesful minute long demolitions check without Asmodeus noticing, seeing as how sleight of hand for the average 400 pounds of TNT conveys a bit of a penalty.

Yes, I've checked what I need to take out Asmodeus' aspect as written, and have included explosives on the list of possibilities that fail. :smalltongue:

SilverClawShift
2009-08-25, 07:13 PM
People react with an uneasy discomfort at the suggestion of taking on The Lady of Pain for a reason by the way. The line "She's not a diety" is just brushing the surface of why there's a collective reaction of "no, just, no" to the idea of attacking her or besting her in any way, and it's not because she's got a huge number of hitpoints.
It's not that The Lady is a deity and therefor tougher than you. It's the fact that she's a CONCEPT. And I don't mean in game, she's a concept to the culture that spawned her.

The concept is this: You are a person, and no matter how big and strong and powerful you become, there are things in this world that you simply can't begin to approach understanding.
The Lady of Pain isn't in charge of sigil because someone put her there, she doesn't kill people because she's angry at them, and the fact that we use the word "she" when talking about her doesn't mean she actually has a gender...or is even a thing as we understand it. She's there because she's there. She does the things she does because she does. And trying to apply any kind of number, or impose any kind of ruling, or even saying anything other than "Her Shadow falls on you, and now you no longer exist" isn't so much a lack of understanding as it is an insult to the subculture that spawned the concept itself.

The same applies to, say, Asmodeus, or Cthulhu, or an overdeity like AO.

Asmodeus doesn't have stats. The thing standing in front of you when you meet Asmodeus has stats, but that thing standing in front of you is actually just something your fragile, young (as in not-older-than-time), unprepared mind created because it couldn't process the face of the serpent coiled around the bubble of reality, constricting and pulsating slightly, causing blood to leak from your eyes when it speaks because its pure undiluted evil from which all the ills of this entire universe spring forth are more than any man could come face to face with.

Cthulhu doesn't have stats. Cthulhu's only stat is "1d4 investigators per round". The lucky ones die immediately, the unlucky ones stay concious long enough to puke out their own insides and watch as the fabric of reality shreds and the viscous unknownable unreality reasserts itself over this strange soap bubble with laws and physics and other such nonsense.
He's not a squid faced giant with wings, he's an unnamable force older than the universe, the embodiment of the foot of whatever came before the big bang shoving itself into the door of reality and prying it open to peak in at us.

Ect, ect...

Now don't get me wrong, if you want to shoot cthulhu with a shotgun and sneak up on the lady of pain with garrote wire, that's totally your business, and I hope you enjoy your game immensly.

But please understand that coming to a large gathering of similar geeks and announcing how easy it was to shoot Cthulhu with a sniper rifle is kinda akin to going to a holy temple and loudly denouncing the local faith.
Yeah, it's your opinion, and you're more than entitled to have it, and to speak it loud and proud. But those who DO respect the concept you're deriding are going to lean over and ask "what's the deal, bro?"

This is a gaming forum. That means that, odds are, the majority opinions are that
- Asmodeus is unspeakable primal evil so powerful that he probably came up with the IDEA of evil
- Cthulhu doesn't so much eat you, as reality unravels around him and your death is an incidental side effect to him being concious, and
- The Lady of Pain will throw your keister in an eternal maze for speaking her name too loudly.

so please whisper if you talk about her inside these walls...

sofawall
2009-08-25, 07:18 PM
SilverClawShift gets 4 cookies and an internet for that wonderful post.

Geddoe
2009-08-25, 07:18 PM
0 xp for the explosion itself. It isn't really a challenge, after you get into position. As for the LoP and Asmodeus arguements, the idea of LoP and to a lesser extents Asmo would be the first things to go in any campaign I would seriously run. Yeah, that makes it not really Planescape, but LoP is such a ridiculous plot device I don't really see how I am losing out by not including her.

Milskidasith
2009-08-25, 07:23 PM
Because without her there is no logical reason for Sigil to exist, which would probably lead to lots of problems.

Samb
2009-08-25, 07:25 PM
0 xp for the explosion itself. It isn't really a challenge, after you get into position. As for the LoP and Asmodeus arguements, the idea of LoP and to a lesser extents Asmo would be the first things to go in any campaign I would seriously run. Yeah, that makes it not really Planescape, but LoP is such a ridiculous plot device I don't really see how I am losing out by not including her.
In some ways LoP was created as a plot device to prevent the PCs from destroying the multiverse. The fact you had to include her in the first place means your PCs are abuse the system and being put in a maze= anvil dropping on your head you die no save.

She is there to save your plot, not BE your plot. So if she never shows up in your story, then you are doing it right.

SilverClawShift
2009-08-25, 07:38 PM
SilverClawShift gets 4 cookies and an internet for that wonderful post.

I've got enough internet stockpiled, but I could really use a cookie right about now :smallsmile:

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-25, 07:43 PM
The more I hear people explain what the Lady is and why she is necessary and so on, the less respect I have for her as a literary creation, as an entity in an RPG setting, and as the sacred cow that she apparently is.

That said, I do find the sheer unsatisfactory nature of this shallow plot device creature and the sheer waves of nerd-rage that surrounds any break with a narrow interpretation of her quite inspiring in some ways. I'll have to see what the DMG2 has to say about 4e sigil, because the idea of running a plane-scape inspired, spelljammerish campaign is slowly becoming intruiging.

ColdSepp
2009-08-25, 07:46 PM
I hear Rommel's build was pretty optimized, but most of the generals were just straight single class fighter. No battlefield control at all, just burst damage. Most people don't realize that Patton was referring to the Tome of Battle when he claimed to have read Rommel's book.

Ha! Brilliant.

Yukitsu
2009-08-25, 07:50 PM
The more I hear people explain what the Lady is and why she is necessary and so on, the less respect I have for her as a literary creation, as an entity in an RPG setting, and as the sacred cow that she apparently is.

That said, I do find the sheer unsatisfactory nature of this shallow plot device creature and the sheer waves of nerd-rage that surrounds any break with a narrow interpretation of her quite inspiring in some ways. I'll have to see what the DMG2 has to say about 4e sigil, because the idea of running a plane-scape inspired, spelljammerish campaign is slowly becoming intruiging.

For someone who's only read the wiki, you sure are quick to argue with all the people who are simply giving a realistic set of consequinces based around the lore. :smallconfused:

Samb
2009-08-25, 07:59 PM
The more I hear people explain what the Lady is and why she is necessary and so on, the less respect I have for her as a literary creation, as an entity in an RPG setting, and as the sacred cow that she apparently is.

That said, I do find the sheer unsatisfactory nature of this shallow plot device creature and the sheer waves of nerd-rage that surrounds any break with a narrow interpretation of her quite inspiring in some ways. I'll have to see what the DMG2 has to say about 4e sigil, because the idea of running a plane-scape inspired, spelljammerish campaign is slowly becoming intruiging.

Actually, she's a great plot device that is supposed to stay in the background. She is supposed to represent that anything is possible. and all the "nerd rage" you are experiencing is the fact that Zeb Cook did a good job in convincing us it is so. The fact you can't see it just means you are in the minority.

Besides you don't go to Sigil to see her, you go to see Sigil and the rest of the planes. If anything you want to avoid her.

Samb
2009-08-25, 08:01 PM
For someone who's only read the wiki, you sure are quick to argue with all the people who are simply giving a realistic set of consequinces based around the lore. :smallconfused:

Where did he say he only read the wiki? You mean he's never played a planescape game? Even torment? That's sad...... go play an AD&D planescape game, I think I saw a boxset for only $40 at my local hobby store.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-25, 08:13 PM
Where did he say he only read the wiki? You mean he's never played a planescape game? Even torment? That's sad...... go play an AD&D planescape game, I think I saw a boxset for only $40 at my local hobby store.

No. Old edition is old. If someone in my region trots it out (quite possible given the group) I'll try it, but I really have no intention on spending cash on old versions of DnD, especially when I'd only be doing so to steal bits from them to use in 4th ed. (Like I did around release with an old Ravenloft box set.) With Sigil being contained in the new dmg, and the Lady of Pain being so completely without genuine character, I'll just keep my monies, thanks. :)

For seeing as the Lore pretty much specifies the Lady as the Deus Ex Machina version of the 'character left intentionally blank' style of Hero (where they are left empty so that the Player may project onto them, like with Link and Gordon Freeman), there's a lot of very specific and narrow interpretations of the Lore.

SilverClawShift
2009-08-25, 08:16 PM
With Sigil being contained in the new dmg, and the Lady of Pain being so completely without genuine character, I'll just keep my monies, thanks. :)

"I've never read it, but I know way more about it than you do"

kjones
2009-08-25, 08:18 PM
No. Old edition is old. If someone in my region trots it out (quite possible given the group) I'll try it, but I really have no intention on spending cash on old versions of DnD, especially when I'd only be doing so to steal bits from them to use in 4th ed. (Like I did around release with an old Ravenloft box set.) With Sigil being contained in the new dmg, and the Lady of Pain being so completely without genuine character, I'll just keep my monies, thanks. :)

For seeing as the Lore pretty much specifies the Lady as the Deus Ex Machina version of the 'character left intentionally blank' style of Hero (where they are left empty so that the Player may project onto them, like with Link and Gordon Freeman), there's a lot of very specific and narrow interpretations of the Lore.

You don't need to buy books to enjoy Planescape. If you're into CRPGs, Planescape: Torment is widely considered one of the best of the lot. It's pretty old, but games like that aren't about the graphics, and it should run on newer hardware without too much trouble.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-25, 08:26 PM
"I've never read it, but I know way more about it than you do"

Read every quote in each Lady-of-Pain bitchfest that's cropped up on these forums lately, as well as plenty of wiki stuff about both planescape torment and planescape in general.

I think I know enough to have a legitimate opinion. I even got a good few verses into the Poem that the Lady is inspired by, before realising it was about a dozen times longer than I thought.

NB - Nothing against old computer games. I'm currently trying to learn Dwarf Fortress, playing an old Super Metroid, and only played Baldur's gate for the first time last year. Perhaps when I run out of better things to do, I will one day give Torment a go. I'm in no particular hurry, however.

Samb
2009-08-25, 08:28 PM
"I've never read it, but I know way more about it than you do"

Kind of like this? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlexxpmjrh25rbg?from=Main.ComplainingAboutShows YouDontWatch) Well at least he admits he's ignorant. I could say "The Lord of the Flies" was a book on human evil, but unless I read the book I would have no idea what makes that statement true.

You should just shut up Tiki, because you don't know anything. Have you played Fraction Wars? Or Die, Venca, Die? If you did then you would know how the Lady reacts to threats. But you didn't, so you don't know. Hence you don't know anything.

PS Torment is considered one of the best games ever made. Your reaction to it is like saying Mozart is bad simply because it is old.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-25, 08:52 PM
Kind of like this? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlexxpmjrh25rbg?from=Main.ComplainingAboutShows YouDontWatch) Well at least he admits he's ignorant. I could say "The Lord of the Flies" was a book on human evil, but unless I read the book I would have no idea what makes that statement true.

You should just shut up Tiki, because you don't know anything. Have you played Fraction Wars? Or Die, Venca, Die? If you did then you would know how the Lady reacts to threats. But you didn't, so you don't know. Hence you don't know anything.

PS Torment is considered one of the best games ever made. Your reaction to it is like saying Mozart is bad simply because it is old.

I think you'll find that the Wiki article on the Lord of the Flies is, infact, quite informative also. :) Probably more-so than several of those pertaining to planescape, but then, it does have an overly-detailed summary section, so that's unsuprising in many ways. :)

Milskidasith
2009-08-25, 08:53 PM
Side note: Dwarf Fortress is neither an old nor a simple game; it's more complex than many modern games.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-25, 08:58 PM
Side note: Dwarf Fortress is neither an old nor a simple game; it's more complex than many modern games.

No, especially given that it's basically an early Alpha that's still in production. Still, it's close enough in style and substance to much older games, such as rogue, or Oregon trail. It certainly reminds me of several games I encountered in passing when I was significantly younger, though I could tell you essentially nothing about them other than I remember failure coming swiftly and brutally, and the controls being an arcane affair involving lots of guesswork.

Samb
2009-08-25, 09:07 PM
I think you'll find that the Wiki article on the Lord of the Flies is, infact, quite informative also. :) Probably more-so than several of those pertaining to planescape, but then, it does have an overly-detailed summary section, so that's unsuprising in many ways. :)

Being informative and good fiction are two entirely things. If it was informative it would be NON-fiction. A good story (or as you kids call it "tropes") is build by details, context, emotional connection etc. Merely reading the cliff notes is not really experiencing it and that is were your argument falls short.

I brought up Lord of the Flies because it is my favorite book. Many other authors have done the same theme but I still thought Golding got it right, and that includes books like Clockwork Orange and Heart of Darkness. I can make that assessment and people would value that opinion because I have read all three. They may not agree with me but if I didn't read any of them and just went by the wiki they would have every right to dismiss my ramblings.

I have played Dark Sun, Greyhawk, Spelljammer and planescape and I can honestly say planescape delivered its mood wonderfully and the Lady of Pain was a big part of it. Now if I had to compare PS to Eberron...... That's a different story, but it is a comparasion i can make since I've played them both.

Khatoblepas
2009-08-25, 09:25 PM
No. Old edition is old.
You're right, old stuff is old. But it doesn't mean it's bad. Most of the Planescape sourcebooks are fluff and system independant. Each monster has about a page and a half of fluff text, there's a detailed explaination of every single facet of Planescape, and it's presented in Sigil Cant. You practically need it to understand the setting. Or play Torment. That's an excellent primer.


With Sigil being contained in the new dmg, and the Lady of Pain being so completely without genuine character, I'll just keep my monies, thanks. :)

The 4th edition DMG is a poor substitute for real information. It's a rough tourist's guide, at best. But in the real material... Oh, there's a lot of it being implied here and there, and some theories, and everything's mentioned in hushed whispers. Sure there's a metagame reason for her existance, which is to make sure Sigil isn't destroyed and make it tumble into whatever terrible fate the PCs might have in store for it, but there must be a deeper reason for it.

The Lady of Pain is the elastic band that stops Sigil from forming any true alignment. She is the equal and opposite force. You cannot harm Sigil because any harm you do to Sigil will befall you. The Dabuses who serve The Lady make sure that The Cage never stays the same, but never falls into entropy and decay. Ordered change, with no rules to it. No morality or ethics, no agenda other than to maintain the Balance of Sigil.

The Lady is truely the only True Neutral "being" there is. But True Neutral is not her alignment - hers is irrelevant, for a True Neutral being could not stand in a city of Fiends and make it stay perfectly balanced atop the Spire.* Not that Sigil is completely evil, it always maintains the balance of all walks of life, from primes to planars, from good to evil, law to chaos, all cross Sigil.

The Lady's punishments destroy (thus removing the soul's influence on the Plane) or remove (again, taking away their influence) the transgressor.

And in doing this, The Lady must remain undefined, kind of like Schrodinger's Cat. Once you look, it becomes set in stone. And remember in Planescape, belief shapes everything. If enough people believe that The Lady is a God, she will cease to be The Lady and be a God. So she is compelled to remove her worshippers not because she does not want to be worshipped, but because she cannot be worshipped without losing the ability to control Sigil. And any attempt to usurp her position of that, directly or indirectly, threatens the balance of Sigil, and threatening the balance of Sigil is something she is compelled to correct.

Factions opposing each other in Sigil is something that doesn't threaten Sigil, since they oppose each other equally. There are Lawful factions, and there are Chaotic factions. They balance out.

The Lady is Nothing. She is Everything. She is your Opposite, but she is Equal. She is the Counterweight where Sigil is the Fulcrum.

She could be any number of things, or all of them, or none of them. But in all, I think that The Lady represents one of the core things about the Planescape campaign setting - the mutability of planes, and the measures one must take in order to remain completely dispassionate. If The Lady wasn't there, Sigil would slide around the Planes. with The Lady, she acts as the Anchor. Nothing can move Sigil.

TL;DR: Cutter, it's pointless to try and push an anchored ring around. You just end up spinning it a little, moving wheels to no effect.

That is The Lady.

*Planes in Planescape are much, much more mutable than planes in other campaign settings. If enough evil passes through a neutral city, it will slide, philosophically and bodily, towards The Gray Wastes. If enough chaos happens, then it will slide towards Limbo. If it is too ordered and predictable, it will slide towards Mechanus. Sigil remains at the top of the spire, in the centre of the Great Wheel, because it is completely Neutral overall.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-25, 09:26 PM
Being informative and good fiction are two entirely things. If it was informative it would be NON-fiction. A good story (or as you kids call it "tropes") is build by details, context, emotional connection etc. Merely reading the cliff notes is not really experiencing it and that is were your argument falls short.

Oh, I'm not saying Lord of the Flies is particularly informative. It makes what is by now a pretty well explored point (that man, left to his own devices, will often degenerate into pretty uncivilised behavior), and from what I understand, much like a Clockwork Orange, derives a lot of it's power via shock value.

Like with the Torment crpg, I understand it is very highly considered by many people. Much like the Torment crpg, I have little desire to subject myself to it, reguardless of it's quality. It doesn't interest me.
I'm quite capable of understanding the themes and concepts behind the work from reading a decent summary, though I'd say as ever it helps to keep the time that it originates in, and the political climate (and so on) that it was written in very much in mind.

I'm not sure Tropes means what you seem to think it does. A trope is not so much a 'good story' as it is a (usually often repeated) story element. Perhaps casting your eyes over the Lord of the Flies (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LordOfTheFlies) entry on That Site might serve some good examples? Admittedly, being as it is, the tropes page does rather focus on the movie versions also.

[edit] Oh, the other reason for me holding off on old planescape is that it's rather tied to the Great Wheel, an unweildy artifact of the older editions obsessive focus on the alignment system and symmetry. Considering I have no time for the majority of the old-school alignment system, and little more love for the Great Wheel of old, (though perhaps there are planes, here and there, that I could happily use) that it really is much more worth my while to simply wait and take a look at the updated, 4th edition matirial that has been adapted to fit the 'generic setting'.

By the way, I was referring to the "detailed “home base” for paragon-tier adventurers—the interplanar city of Sigil." section in the Dungeon Master's Guide 2. You know, the one that isn't even out until next month? I agree entirely that Sigil as presented in the Planar Handbook is pretty much tourist-guide level information, but as we haven't seen the DMG write-up, it seems pretty premature to pass judgement on it just yet, I'd have thought?

Random832
2009-08-25, 09:33 PM
The concept is this: You are a person, and no matter how big and strong and powerful you become, there are things in this world that you simply can't begin to approach understanding.

If there is a place in D&D for that concept, that line should have been drawn around the gods. There are entire books which acknowledge the legitimacy of running a game where the PCs kill gods and/or ascend to godhood. That legitimacy implicitly extends to a game where the PCs destroy sigil.

Why is there no room for that concept to be wrong in a campaign world - why isn't "If you work hard enough for long enough, there's no limit to where you can go" an equally valid concept? That is the concept that is the reason why we have Epic instead of "Retire at sixth level".

There is no end to how far a PC can go, if they last long enough to do so. That is the concept that is at work for the people defending the legitimacy of this storyline.

Ok, that (and some cheesier bits I snipped on the edit) is me trying and failing to be as eloquent about this.


Actually, she's a great plot device that is supposed to stay in the background. She is supposed to represent that anything is possible. and all the "nerd rage" you are experiencing is the fact that Zeb Cook did a good job in convincing us it is so. The fact you can't see it just means you are in the minority.

That's not what she represents. That's the opposite of what she represents; you can't deny that: what she represents is that some things are not possible. Which tends to collide with the sort of thinking that leads players to go epic rather than just retiring at lv20.

Yukitsu
2009-08-25, 09:35 PM
No. Old edition is old. If someone in my region trots it out (quite possible given the group) I'll try it, but I really have no intention on spending cash on old versions of DnD, especially when I'd only be doing so to steal bits from them to use in 4th ed. (Like I did around release with an old Ravenloft box set.) With Sigil being contained in the new dmg, and the Lady of Pain being so completely without genuine character, I'll just keep my monies, thanks. :)

For seeing as the Lore pretty much specifies the Lady as the Deus Ex Machina version of the 'character left intentionally blank' style of Hero (where they are left empty so that the Player may project onto them, like with Link and Gordon Freeman), there's a lot of very specific and narrow interpretations of the Lore.

This is like saying "I read the wikipedia article on the colour red, so now I know what the colour red looks like." Character is rather removed from description in summaries that you can get from Wikipedia. If I were to evaluate character like that, I'd come to the conclusion that Shinji Ikari is just a bit depressed, as the wiki article seems to imply, or that cello playing comes up more than twice.

Milskidasith
2009-08-25, 09:36 PM
Even if it was reasonable to destroy Sigil as written (which it isn't, because The Lady is stronger than any God) these characters weren't epic level and did it by a method that could have occurred by two people holding the door to their planes open too long.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-25, 09:39 PM
This is like saying "I read the wikipedia article on the colour red, so now I know what the colour red looks like." Character is rather removed from description in summaries that you can get from Wikipedia. If I were to evaluate character like that, I'd come to the conclusion that Shinji Ikari is just a bit depressed, as the wiki article seems to imply, or that cello playing comes up more than twice.

I've read pages and pages of passionate description and defence of the Lady of Pain over the past month. Time and time again the arguement that she is INTENDED as either; A deliberate Deus Ex Machina, Mere background plot device, or full on Avatar of the DM crops up. She is also an Expy of a figure from a poem, with 'inscruitable' motives at best, and no official backstory.

If I am missing a major element of the Lady's personality, please, enlighten me, as I am interested in using my own...modified version, at some point in the future (perhaps).

Random832
2009-08-25, 09:39 PM
How about an alternate view - the concept of anyone wanting to destroy sigil, rather than capturing it for their own use, is so alien to anything she has ever encountered before that she was not watching for it?

Or - again, since her motives are inscrutable this is an open possibility - maybe she wants it destroyed, but cannot do so herself. No evidence of this happening comes from the simple fact of no-one ever trying (with anything near possible to succeed) before. So in this version she chose to allow it to be destroyed.

kjones
2009-08-25, 09:40 PM
I'm quite capable of understanding the themes and concepts behind the work from reading a decent summary, though I'd say as ever it helps to keep the time that it originates in, and the political climate (and so on) that it was written in very much in mind.


If you really think that you can gain a good understanding of a text just by reading the Cliff's Notes version... I'm not sure what else to say to you.

A broad overview, sure. Enough to fake your way through high school, absolutely. But it doesn't give you enough information to develop a real understanding - if it did, there would be no point in writing something in the first place, since you can get the same effect just from writing a summary.

To say not only that a summary tells you everything that you need to know, but that you're not interested in learning more, shows some serious hubris.

Milskidasith
2009-08-25, 09:40 PM
How about an alternate view - the concept of anyone wanting to destroy sigil, rather than capturing it for their own use, is so alien to anything she has ever encountered before that she was not watching for it?

Hasn't it been tried before?

lsfreak
2009-08-25, 09:43 PM
I've read pages and pages of passionate description and defence of the Lady of Pain over the past month. Time and time again the arguement that she is INTENDED as either; A deliberate Deus Ex Machina, Mere background plot device, or full on Avatar of the DM crops up. She is also an Expy of a figure from a poem, with 'inscruitable' motives at best, and no official backstory.

You also just described Cthulhu. And Ilúvatar (LotR). And the Old Gods (Warcraft). And Sithis (TES). Do you also consider these dues ex machina or poorly conceived because they have little-to-no backstory?

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-25, 09:45 PM
If you really think that you can gain a good understanding of a text just by reading the Cliff's Notes version... I'm not sure what else to say to you.

A broad overview, sure. Enough to fake your way through high school, absolutely. But it doesn't give you enough information to develop a real understanding - if it did, there would be no point in writing something in the first place, since you can get the same effect just from writing a summary.

To say not only that a summary tells you everything that you need to know, but that you're not interested in learning more, shows some serious hubris.

I'm saying that reading a summary tells me enough to enter into a debate on the Internet.
I am not overly interested in learning more via buying old boxed sets, or reading a novel or two, because I have read said summary, and am aware of my own tastes, predalictions, and so on.

Yes, you can gain an understanding of a thing from reading the Cliff-Notes version. It is inferior to an opinion gained through careful and extended study of the full and original source matirial and those source matirials that directly inspired and influenced the original source matirial's creation.
But that doesn't mean that a carefully considered opinion cannot be formed based on secondary sources.

Yukitsu
2009-08-25, 09:52 PM
Actually, there is a reason universities only allow original source citations in debate.

Sure, an internet debate maybe, but certainly people who have read the original source will not take you seriously, and given the choice between using the advice between first source readers and a person who read the wiki, I'd say you should generally take the advice of the former.

For appeal, part of that is from the mystique surrounding her. Much like Cypher in warhammer 40K. There is interest in things that are not fully explained. As well, a complete arbitrator of a unity of all things, as opposed to neutrality by apathy makes her a unique and interesting addition to the world.

On the issue of power, however, it is fairly undeniable that she is rather competent, as opposed to what was done in this scenario. She did kill a greater diety with very, very little effort, and greater dieties are given general guidelines in dieties and demigods. For one, greater dieties cannot be truly killed by anything less than a fellow greater diety. They know everything about what will occur in their divine realm 20 weeks before it happens, which was bypassed. They know when something purtaining to their portfolio will occur before it happens. They know everything that happens around their followers. The lady of pain can bypass all of these abilities, as well as his 20 divine salient abilities, his ability to automatically take 20 on all rolls, his ability to block any and all sense abilities of any diety lower ranked than he and the ability to alter all the traits of the plane at a wim. This is not a "fan" interpretation of greater gods, this is simply what they are in the rules. Even the weakest of greater dieties have these abilities. She kicked out Vecna as well, indicating a similar level of capabilities.

By these rules, the lady is either an overdiety, or a fellow greater diety. In either event, this means she is completely capable of knowing everything that will happen in Sigil a week in advance, with no chance on the players part in hiding this fact. The alternative is she's simply something above a god without herself being one, though this would imply "not an ignorant pushover." as was again, portrayed in this playthrough.

Random832
2009-08-25, 09:55 PM
Actually, there is a reason universities only allow original source citations in debate.

When we're talking about flavor, about how something is "supposed to be" played, and anyway not one single person has provided an actual text citation saying the Lady of Pain is all-powerful...

This simply isn't that kind of debate. This is a debate about opinions, and you are using cheap tactics to try to shut out someone whose opinion you disagree with.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-25, 09:58 PM
You also just described Cthulhu. And Ilúvatar (LotR). And the Old Gods (Warcraft). And Sithis (TES). Do you also consider these dues ex machina or poorly conceived because they have little-to-no backstory?

Considering he shows up in aproximately ONE short story, I'd say Cthulhu has plenty of backstory, even whilst sticking with Lovecraft's work alone. If you expand that to further appearences and the mythos in general, Cthulhu and his ilk are quite thoroughly fleshed out with backstory and motivation, as well as even the rudimentary basics of personality. Also, in his one appearence, Cthulhu does not serve the role of Deus Ex Machina, though he does exist largely via the power of plot.

I'm afraid I know very little about the latter three, so really could not say whether they are particularly prone to being used as Deus Ex Machina or not. Certainly Tolkein was not immune to rampant deus-ex, but one thing he can't often be accussed of is lacking backstory...

Also, I'm pretty sure one of the main reasons that Universities only allow original source citations is that you are supposed to be doing your own work, your own research, (that being the whole point of being at university) rather than merely building upon previous and existing work. Not entirely the same situation, I'd say.

[edit] Reguardless, diverting as all this is, I need to sleep at some point, so I'll take Samb's most respectful suggestion and "Shut up" now. ;)

GoatToucher
2009-08-25, 10:11 PM
I really enjoy that Tiki points out that the LoP is a sacred cow, and a host of folks flip right the hell out, at once telling him that he is wrong and proving his point.

While I agree with the point that one can't judge very well from second hand sources (for the most part), I will say that the LoP seems to me to be painted with broad strokes, and little different from other super powerful deus ex machina from other works. The difference between the LoP and Cthullu, Iluvatar, etc is that the latter, while all powerful, do not tend to involve themselves in the narrative. Cthullu sleeps, Iluvatar watch, and so on.

That being said, I would much rather hear first hand accounts as to why this is not the case from people who have read/played the appropriate materials, rather than seeing opinions negated by simply saying "You haven't read it, so you don't know." No, I haven't read it, but I've seen a duck before, and the LoP seems to swim, have feathers and quack, so why don't you explain to me what she really is and how she is something more than a ten ton hammer to drop on the PC's when they get too upitty?

Samb
2009-08-25, 10:15 PM
That's not what she represents. That's the opposite of what she represents; you can't deny that: what she represents is that some things are not possible. Which tends to collide with the sort of thinking that leads players to go epic rather than just retiring at lv20.

Word of god, Zeb Cook said very clearly in the Planescape campaign setting that the Lady is suppose to represent the fact that anything is possible in the Planescape setting. Keeping the whole Blood War out of the city, prevent gods from even manifesting avatars in Sigil, maze people with a thought, make plans that take into account for things like time travel.......


"Bluntly put, as Planescape's campaign is concerned, the Lady of Pain is little more than an icon that crystallizes the mood of the setting. PCs should never deal with her.......it should simply reinforce the wonder and mystery of the whole place. On the otherhand, the Lady of Pain just by being there makes all things possible"

pg 62 PSCS

All those things should be impossible anywhere else and yet she does them on a daily basis. She jives very well with a setting where you could walk through a door and you're in Celestia. Indeed anything is possible and the Lady represent that.

Random832
2009-08-25, 10:24 PM
Word of god, Zeb Cook said very clearly in the Planescape campaign setting that the Lady is suppose to represent the fact that anything is possible in the Planescape setting.

Except for, apparently, the things that offend you, like destroying Sigil.


Keeping the whole Blood War out of the city, prevent gods from even manifesting avatars in Sigil,

Starting off by listing things that are impossible doesn't speak well for an entity that is supposed to represent that anything is possible. (and incidentally, if she's really got all that much power over the gods, why can't she just let them in and force them to not do the things that they supposedly can't be trusted not to do if let in? But that's beside the point.)

An entity whose entire thing is preventing stuff from happening is not a good representative of the concept that "anything is possible". It doesn't matter WHO wrote that she is.

----

I'll mention that no-one has pointed out any reason why my theory that this could turn out to be something she wanted to happen all along isn't valid.

Yukitsu
2009-08-25, 10:28 PM
I really enjoy that Tiki points out that the LoP is a sacred cow, and a host of folks flip right the hell out, at once telling him that he is wrong and proving his point.

While I agree with the point that one can't judge very well from second hand sources (for the most part), I will say that the LoP seems to me to be painted with broad strokes, and little different from other super powerful deus ex machina from other works. The difference between the LoP and Cthullu, the Illuvatar, etc is that the latter, while all powerful, do not tend to involve themselves in the narrative. Cthullu sleeps, the Illuvatar watch, and so on.

That being said, I would much rather hear first hand accounts as to why this is not the case from people who have read/played the appropriate materials, rather than seeing opinions negated by simply saying "You haven't read it, so you don't know." No, I haven't read it, but I've seen a duck before, and the LoP seems to swim, have feathers and quack, so why don't you explain to me what she really is and how she is something more than a ten ton hammer to drop on the PC's when they get too upitty?

http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineRanksPowers.htm

Read everything pertaining to greater dieties, apply what you would then rationally need to kill said being and apply those to the lady of pain.

Notable requirements: Bypassing immunity to all detection from anything below a greater diety, bypassing omniscience in the dieties home plane which occurs 20 weeks prior to the event occuring, complete ownership of a plane and its traits, complete access to all spells below epic for free, casting up to 20 spells per round all with maximum damage, automatically rolling nothing but 20s, and most important of all, immunity to death from anything with a lesser divine rank.

Sure, it can be argued that she has some ways around this which is an inevitable conclusion to draw, but assuming even that, she is a being of comparable power to an entity that can defeat the above. I'd argue that Aoskar is a fairly weak greater diety, but this doesn't change that greater dieties, despite the way many are run (many people who have "I killed god" stories just look at the stat block and exchange attacks), simply cannot be beaten by individuals that are not grossly powerful, and without fiat cannot be killed by something week enough to be beaten by a bomb at all.

Over mechanical analysis for some, but in my opinion, since it is never explicitly stated as to how she killed Aoskar, this is the most accurate way of getting the bare minimal requirements.

Kylarra
2009-08-25, 10:28 PM
I'll mention that no-one has pointed out any reason why my theory that this could turn out to be something she wanted to happen all along isn't valid.
That theory would be a great one, and I'd applaud almost any other DM for coming up with it, but it would be completely out of the SOP for oxinabox, so I don't place much credibility towards him thinking that far ahead.

Samb
2009-08-25, 10:36 PM
That being said, I would much rather hear first hand accounts as to why this is not the case from people who have read/played the appropriate materials, rather than seeing opinions negated by simply saying "You haven't read it, so you don't know." No, I haven't read it, but I've seen a duck before, and the LoP seems to swim, have feathers and quack, so why don't you explain to me what she really is and how she is something more than a ten ton hammer to drop on the PC's when they get too upitty?


I've already sited two modules that I have played and it still falls on deaf ears......

In the last adventure module, Fraction War, this sort of thing happened. Sir Rowan Darkwood wanted to destroy Sigil/Lady and it did not end will for him. And he started it exactly like the OP did: by framing a fraction for another ones murder.

He had at his disposal, the powers of a cleric20/ranger20, a whole fraction (that spanned the multiverse), time travel, a contingency wish spell to get him out of the mazes, a powerful artifact with a high level wizard trapped in it, that once "almost made the Lady humble", ability to time travel and was basically immortal. His plot was far more involved, far more ambitious (he is the reason Sigil is named Sigil; he craved a sigil into the whole city as a spell to kill Her) and Darkwood was far stronger than and non-epic party.

He ended up suffering from a 500 year maddness in Sigil's nuthouse (and he belonged there because he was insane), traveling back and mastering the art of a wizard (making him a ranger20/cleric20/wizard20), carving a potent spell into the city only to be trapped in the very artifact he he had in his possession thousands of years in the future, and knowing that his future self would make the same mistakes over and over and over again. The Lady feigned all of her weakness just to trap Darkwood in an endless cycle of suffering, even if some innocents had to die to accomplish it. And she planned all this with knowledge of the time travel.

Now compare that to what the OP's PCs did and you have wonder where the DM put his head at.

Random832
2009-08-25, 10:47 PM
In the last adventure module, Fraction War, this sort of thing happened. Sir Rowan Darkwood wanted to destroy Sigil/Lady

So are you saying that wikipedia's description of this incident in the very same module as "a bid to dethrone the Lady of Pain and rule Sigil himself" is grossly inaccurate? Because that is a very different goal than "destroy Sigil".

Because if that is what you're saying, that's fine - WP isn't the most reliable source in the world. I'm just verifying that you really do mean what you have said about his goal being properly characterized as "wanted to destroy Sigil/Lady"

Because my theory is: there is just some sliver of room for interpretation - that her ability to plan despite time travel etc is limited to only function against plans to conquer the city. If it is destroyed, it is not only not conquered, it is in fact once and for all safe from being conquered.

And it happened with the PCs because - well, no-one else before has had both the ability to be relevant and a pure desire to destroy Sigil, untainted by wanting it for themselves. Someone had to be the first.

chiasaur11
2009-08-25, 10:48 PM
On the other hand....

This could lead to some rollicking fun.

We're talking those comedies where the entire world is against the protagonists, the heroes are massively incompetantt, and yet somehow, they manage to get out alive (barely).

Would be fun if the party goes all Rhincewind.

Samb
2009-08-25, 10:52 PM
{Scrubbed}

Random832
2009-08-25, 10:57 PM
So either the Lady let it happen, or this was a blind spot because her purpose was never to protect Sigil from being destroyed. (How this is different from what Vecna did: well, it's kind of a preventative when you think about it. Platforms from which the multiverse can theoretically be destroyed don't come cheap, after all, and now this one's gone.)

But my point, anyway, was that she utterly fails at representing the ideal of "anything is possible". And, well, "making some things possible by making other things impossible" is kinda boring.

Night-breeze
2009-08-25, 11:08 PM
I haven't yet all the posts here, butI'd like to point out that even if you were to gain 1.000.000 experience points, you would still gain exactly one level, and be at a 1 xp point distance from the next one.

Basically, they can gain 1, almost 2 levels from this.

Personally, I think they should gain the appropriate xp for the monsters/npc killed, with perhaps 100*lvl xp as story premium. You don't get xp for acting chaotically.

Samb
2009-08-25, 11:10 PM
So are you saying that wikipedia's description of this incident in the very same module as "a bid to dethrone the Lady of Pain and rule Sigil himself" is grossly inaccurate? Because that is a very different goal than "destroy Sigil".

Because if that is what you're saying, that's fine - WP isn't the most reliable source in the world. I'm just verifying that you really do mean what you have said about his goal being properly characterized as "wanted to destroy Sigil/Lady"

Because my theory is: there is just some sliver of room for interpretation - that her ability to plan despite time travel etc is limited to only function against plans to conquer the city. If it is destroyed, it is not only not conquered, it is in fact once and for all safe from being conquered.

And it happened with the PCs because - well, no-one else before has had both the ability to be relevant and a pure desire to destroy Sigil, untainted by wanting it for themselves. Someone had to be the first.
Darkwood's theory was that the Lady was a living representation of Sigil. The spell he carved into the city was to sever that connection and depower Her so he could take over.

I think you just don't want to admit that you were wrong. I have quoted Zeb Cook, the creator himself, cited 2 clear displays of how much effort and power (level 60 and a greater god) you need to have to even be a blimp on her radar, and yet you still think the Lady can be fooled by mere illusions? Sorry but you are wrong. Simple as that.

Samb
2009-08-25, 11:13 PM
But my point, anyway, was that she utterly fails at representing the ideal of "anything is possible". And, well, "making some things possible by making other things impossible" is kinda boring.
You could say Zeb Cook failed to portray her that way but you cannot deny that that was his initial intent. I mean he said so quite plainly. I personally think he did a great job, but you are feel to your opinions, the facts still don't change.

Doc Roc
2009-08-25, 11:21 PM
I nominate Silverclaw for an additional cookie, throw my weight behind her sentiment, and leave after a brief anecdote.

The Lady has been involved in my games exactly once, as a distant and infinitely strange figure moving across the inner surface of the ring. She didn't fly so much as cut her way through the air, and she seemed to lack any destination. Sigil is a story, a legend about what it means to have real and meaningful choices in an infinitely large place called the multiverse. The Lady is a symbol and a consequence of this, something unique in all the planes and all the places, a beautiful and utterly monstrous alien figment etched out of what might be metal, floating above the massive and varied architecture of the single biggest city the player characters will ever encounter. In a universe with at least two of almost everything, she is the first time that players hear the word Lady and it has a wholly unambiguous antecedent.
She is their introduction to a world of strangeness, variance, possibility, and the banality of the unnatural. What is she? She's the Lady. To a cutter versed in the dark of the planes, The Lady always means her. No ambiguity. The rest of you berks can find some other title. She is proof to the player that a single action or creature can be unique, that they can achieve meaning and uniqueness in an infinite realm of infinite realms. She is the first time that a player says "The story isn't just about me, but neither is it nihilistic. Some things are still special." She meant a hell of a lot to my players.


She's not special to you. That's fine. But don't imply that I'm a fool for feeling like she's special to me. Phrases like sacred cow are loaded, and we all know it. I haven't mocked you, denigrated your views, or done anything other than perhaps be a little bit too vehement. Do me a similar favor.

~Jake

AstralFire
2009-08-25, 11:42 PM
Flavor and fluff are as prone to rule zero as rules.

Moreso, perhaps.

No, "sure, you can do what you want, but..."

There is no 'but' here. There is none. The thread wasn't bragging about what his players can do - I like to think everyone here is already aware that bragging about things accomplished in D&D campaigns (as opposed to telling about them) is a pretty pointless activity. So don't 'but don't come here and brag about it' - that didn't happen here.

When major changes are enacted in a campaign, it is done for a reason, and it is not your campaign. Respect that.

Doc Roc
2009-08-25, 11:54 PM
I wish I was as good at that as you are, Astral. I'm willing to admit that in all likelihood, the failing here is mine. That doesn't change how strongly I feel about Sigil, or the world it was set in. I almost never get attached to fluff, or to rules. :: gestures :: I dunno. I guess I should scarper. This whole thing has left me feeling old and out-dated.

AstralFire
2009-08-26, 12:00 AM
Don't beat yourself up or anything. :P Ask Zuki, I can be terribly draconian fun police when it's on my nerve subjects, you're not even close.

Doc Roc
2009-08-26, 12:03 AM
Right, but when did I become a Grognard?

Kylarra
2009-08-26, 12:04 AM
Flavor and fluff are as prone to rule zero as rules.

Moreso, perhaps.

No, "sure, you can do what you want, but..."

There is no 'but' here. There is none. The thread wasn't bragging about what his players can do - I like to think everyone here is already aware that bragging about things accomplished in D&D campaigns (as opposed to telling about them) is a pretty pointless activity. So don't 'but don't come here and brag about it' - that didn't happen here.

When major changes are enacted in a campaign, it is done for a reason, and it is not your campaign. Respect that.However, when a potential problem is posited in a pre-existing province without presenting potential personal permutations of the particular place, there exists no point of reference, save the particulars posited by the planners.

That was an exercise in amusement, but I'll just reference Tide's previous post for a general response about the situation again.


I guess what we're saying is that within the context of your game, this is a lovely and exciting adventure. We weren't there, and we don't know the shape of your setting, so we can't help you.

Mongoose87
2009-08-26, 12:06 AM
I wish I was as good at that as you are, Astral. I'm willing to admit that in all likelihood, the failing here is mine. That doesn't change how strongly I feel about Sigil, or the world it was set in. I almost never get attached to fluff, or to rules. :: gestures :: I dunno. I guess I should scarper. This whole thing has left me feeling old and out-dated.

I would love to feel old as you do if it meant I could experience Sigil the way you seem to have.

Samb
2009-08-26, 12:09 AM
{Scrubbed}

AstralFire
2009-08-26, 12:12 AM
Umm no. The DM's job is to enforce the rules. If your players want to jump off a cliff and survive on your good graces die are rolled for damage and pray he makes it. What the DM did here was not even roll the dice. In effect he has not played according to the rules and hence failed as a DM. The fact that he has a device to bail him out (the Lady) and he squandered it makes this mistake even worse.

Sir, what the DM did here was:

Not play the way I would have played.
Clearly not play the way you would have played.
Play the way his players expect, and by all apparent circumstances, are comfortable with.
Make a post asking about how to resolve the XP and get told how he's doing the whole campaign wrong when he didn't ask for that.


Posts like this, I'm cool with:

I'm just gonna say that even TO doesn't normally screw around with Sigil. I think you've made a mistake trivializing this kind of behavior, because it encourages your players to kill wantonly in future campaigns without any expectation of consequences.

Posts like this:

Problem is, you as the DM let them destroy Sigil, of all places...

Poor DMing is not something you reward players for. Unless, of course, its by not running games anymore and letting them play for a competent DM.
I am not okay with, and I'm seeing a lot of this kind of 'advice' on this thread. That's not helpful, it's not friendly, and it's very rarely an effective way of convincing someone to have fun your way of doing things, in my experience.

Kylarra
2009-08-26, 12:16 AM
Sir, what the DM did here was:

Not play the way I would have played.
Clearly not play the way you would have played.
Play the way his players expect, and by all apparent circumstances, are comfortable with.
Make a post asking about how to resolve the XP and get told how he's doing it wrong when he didn't ask for that.
This is Gitp, we never stay on topic. :smalltongue:


He did get valid answers before we derailed into the details of what happened overall.

In short:

experience granted per the destruction of 21 million inhabitants of sigil should be equal to zero. They were not an obstacle directly overcome by the players.

AstralFire
2009-08-26, 12:18 AM
This is Gitp, we never stay on topic. :smalltongue:


He did get valid answers before we derailed into the details of what happened overall.

In short:

experience granted per the destruction of 21 million inhabitants of sigil should be equal to zero. They were not an obstacle directly overcome by the players.

I clarified. It's not just about being on-topic, it's about people trying to shame him into doing the game the way they'd do it when it seems to work for him and his. I don't really care for that, and I don't think it's the right approach.

sofawall
2009-08-26, 12:25 AM
Umm no. The DM's job is to enforce the rules.

WRONG!

I advise you go back and reread the DMG.

Samb
2009-08-26, 12:29 AM
I clarified. It's not just about being on-topic, it's about people trying to shame him into doing the game the way they'd do it when it seems to work for him and his. I don't really care for that, and I don't think it's the right approach.

He can play wrong all he wants but it doesn't change the fact that it was wrong. I could turn that 20 I just rolled that would certainly kill my PC into a normal hit. I want my PCs alive so I fudged the roll, it was wrong but I did it under the impression that it is better for the game. It doesn't change the FACT that a natural 20 should be a crit.

That's the part you don't get, Sigil has rules (of threes) and he blatantly followed none of them. He can bastardize the rules all he wants in the name of fun, but the facts remain he didn't follow the rules. In fact he didn't even know them to begin with, hence a failure of a DM.

Kylarra
2009-08-26, 12:32 AM
I clarified. It's not just about being on-topic, it's about people trying to shame him into doing the game the way they'd do it when it seems to work for him and his. I don't really care for that, and I don't think it's the right approach.I'll agree that some people are taking it too far, however, I tend to side towards one of the ideas that


a) the entire scenario was played out rather poorly

b) The thread is presented as bragging of sorts saying they blew up sigil. which upon examination of the normal safeguards there revealed a fair number of houserules, invalidating any particular wow factor from that, leading back to this.


I guess what we're saying is that within the context of your game, this is a lovely and exciting adventure. We weren't there, and we don't know the shape of your setting, so we can't help you.

and

c) my personal opinion on the overall subject of the campaign

after reading the few threads on this subject, his players are a thoroughly chaotic evil group, so we shouldn't really be surprised, and if they have fun blowing stuff up for no apparent reason, then obviously they should be allowed to continue. The main problem I see is, you just blew up an entire plane that was important to both the heavens and the hells, not to mention the various other planes, where do you go from there?

So yeah. I am a habitual quoter, I know.

sofawall
2009-08-26, 12:33 AM
He can play wrong all he wants but it doesn't change the fact that it was wrong. I could turn that 20 I just rolled that would certainly kill my PC into a normal hit. I want my PCs alive so I fudged the roll, it was wrong but I did it under the impression that it is better for the game. It doesn't change the FACT that a natural 20 should be a crit.

That's the part you don't get, Sigil has rules (of threes) and he blatantly followed none of them. He can bastardize the rules all he wants in the name of fun, but the facts remain he didn't follow the rules. In fact he didn't even know them to begin with, hence a failure of a DM.

Are you going to make me dig out my DMG and quote it?

AstralFire
2009-08-26, 12:36 AM
He can play wrong all he wants but it doesn't change the fact that it was wrong. I could turn that 20 I just rolled that would certainly kill my PC into a normal hit. I want my PCs alive so I fudged the roll, it was wrong but I did it under the impression that it is better for the game. It doesn't change the FACT that a natural 20 should be a crit.

That's the part you don't get, Sigil has rules (of threes) and he blatantly followed none of them. He can bastardize the rules all he wants in the name of fun, but the facts remain he didn't follow the rules. In fact he didn't even know them to begin with, hence a failure of a DM.

The only people that matter when it comes to the failure or a success of a DM are the people you game with.

Dungeons and Dragons is a game. The end goal of a game is to have fun, and this is the underlying principle of Rule Zero - because the ways in which people have fun vary from person to person, and certainly from group to group.

This is the part that you don't get. Your Sigil is not his Sigil and it's not my Sigil. I don't like oxinabox, and I don't like the way he plays, but it's his group's prerogative, not yours. The DM is not a paladin, and the sourcebooks are not his code of conduct.

Zuki
2009-08-26, 12:38 AM
Right, but when did I become a Grognard?

Well, you're about two editions behind what's current if you played Planescape when its books were still in print or available in stores.

I love the setting a great deal myself, but only have hazy memories of flipping through a book or two when I was a kid and admiring the art on Guardinals, long before the fateful year I got the 3.0 core for Christmas and truly embarked on the path of the tabletopper.

The Planescape setting seems to have a special place in the eyes of a lot of fans. Something about the mix of the art, the fantastic newness compared to what had come before*, and the attempted focus on belief, philosophy, and planar politics captured the imagination. I know at least a couple few people that never played 2nd edition and list Planescape as their favored setting, from the stories and what they'd heard from older and other players. I'm one of them.

Additionally, for someone who was introduced to Sigil by 3.0 and 3.5 material, I think it's understandable that they'd have less of a sacred cow about the city and its self-appointed guardian. It gets a relatively detailed write-up in the various Planar books, but it's not presented with the same depth as say, Sharn in Eberron. Thusly, there's more sandbox to work with as there's less filled in. People can make different assumptions.

But I've skimmed this thread and I might be missing part of the story here. If OxInABox cheerfully Rule Zero'd Sigil and its fluff, that's cool too if his players are having fun and he is too. It upsets me when I see a bunch of people talking down a gamer for running a session or playing a game in a way that they consider to be Bad Wrong Fun. It might not be your Fun, but let him have his. It's not hurting your sessions, after all. Go have your own Fun.

As a brief segue back to the original topic, how I'd probably calculate experience points if you wanted to numerically tally up all the potential encounters would go something like this:

Look up some population statistics for Sigil. I don't know if 4e has any in their planar sourcebook, but I'm pretty sure 3.0 or 3.5 did. Those generally list population, and you can derive class breakdown from there, etc, etc.

Most of the people in any given city, especially in 4th edition, don't have class levels. Points of light and all. Most of the people a sufficiently lower level (4-5, I'd say.) than your PCs probably aren't worth exp either. Figure out how much of the population is left that's an appropriate challenge level for your PCs or higher. Award chunks of exp for those level-appropriate challenges, with some more exp tacked on assuming they were using Hive gangers or Harmonium hardheads as minions, etc. Give out the appropriate exp for most of those potential encounters that were higher-leveled than the PCs, as well.

For those remaining really powerful types that my fellow posters are flipping their lids over being all gone, all gone, like...tears in the rain, don't give out standard exp. Give out an exp award appropriate for overcoming a particularly challenging puzzle, a plot-relevant encounter with a Big Bad that leaves your PCs alive, etc. I'd probably give out this award times about....eh, twelve. Twelve really important crazy powerful uber-NPCs sounds about right. That's a lot of gordian knots you just sliced through.

Add in just a little bit more or less for a bonus if you like the fact that they had the balls to do this big setting changing thing, or less if you feel they had too easy of a time of it.

In summary, figuring out the EXP necessary for killing an entire city is a bit troublesome unless you're willing to fiat the whole thing, or willing to stat out that entire city.



*Well, with the exception of Spelljammer, sort of. But it was meant as a sort of replacement to that as I understand. They both unified the other published settings of 2nd, but in different ways.

sofawall
2009-08-26, 12:38 AM
Omigosh it's AstralFire!

Great, now you say what I'm saying better than me (mainly because I'm lazy)... I thought I asked you to stop winning.

Mongoose87
2009-08-26, 12:39 AM
He can play wrong all he wants but it doesn't change the fact that it was wrong. I could turn that 20 I just rolled that would certainly kill my PC into a normal hit. I want my PCs alive so I fudged the roll, it was wrong but I did it under the impression that it is better for the game. It doesn't change the FACT that a natural 20 should be a crit.

That's the part you don't get, Sigil has rules (of threes) and he blatantly followed none of them. He can bastardize the rules all he wants in the name of fun, but the facts remain he didn't follow the rules. In fact he didn't even know them to begin with, hence a failure of a DM.

Now, I disagree with the way he allowed his game to go just as much as you do, but I think branding someone a failure over it is very excessive. The whole point of DnD is to have fun, and the only way to fail as a DM is to fail to achieve that goal. If the DM needs to use his own rules to do so, that's up to him.

Samb
2009-08-26, 12:40 AM
Are you going to make me dig out my DMG and quote it?

So you're telling me whatever quote you have for me is going to say: "Ignore all the rules in all the books"?

Because that would prove me wrong. I have fudged and bent the rules for PCs but the fact remains I KNOW THE RULES. And I know when I'm doing it.

Edit: Okay I was harsh, but I stand by the point: don't let players walk all over the rules. Rules are what makes a game. KNOW the rules and enforce them. Don't cater to your PC's, challenge them.

Edit2: and their are a bunch of fiends and other powerful outsider in Sigil pretending to be humans. They might not be that easy to discount.

SilverClawShift
2009-08-26, 12:53 AM
This is the part that you don't get. Your Sigil is not his Sigil and it's not my Sigil. I don't like oxinabox, and I don't like the way he plays, but it's his group's prerogative, not yours. The DM is not a paladin, and the sourcebooks are not his code of conduct.

This is very true, but there's also another thing that has to be accepted.

If you start a thread that says, "Three of my first level players killed an entire army of trolls, how much gold should they find on the corpses?"
And the thread replies collectively with "Whut? How could they have pulled that off?"
And the answer is "in my campaign, trolls are actually six inches tall and fabulously wealthy"...

Then the answer is going to be "Well, we obviously have no idea" from everyone who's picturing regenerating giants with insatiable hunger.

Mongoose87
2009-08-26, 01:15 AM
This is very true, but there's also another thing that has to be accepted.

If you start a thread that says, "Three of my first level players killed an entire army of trolls, how much gold should they find on the corpses?"
And the thread replies collectively with "Whut? How could they have pulled that off?"
And the answer is "in my campaign, trolls are actually six inches tall and fabulously wealthy"...

Then the answer is going to be "Well, we obviously have no idea" from everyone who's picturing regenerating giants with insatiable hunger.

I think I'm going to need to make trolls like that.

AstralFire
2009-08-26, 02:24 AM
Then the answer is going to be "Well, we obviously have no idea" from everyone who's picturing regenerating giants with insatiable hunger.

The thread title was 'a city.' What city it was, in fact, is entirely irrelevant to the opening post aside from determining population, while your example is dependent on the type of army felled and gives a specific level. So I'm not sure your analogy is completely relevant, Miss.

Moreover, the answers were often more like "those aren't trolls and you should feel bad for calling them such." And that makes me giggle because... well... no one can decide what a troll is. (Not a knock against your argument, this is just a good moment for random levity)

http://www.saynotocrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/troll.jpg
http://www.designerdesktopwallpapers.suniliu.com/pics/trollz_group.jpg
http://www.toymania.com/news/images/0804_wow2_sm.jpg
http://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblings_of_the_metrop/_files_troll_2.jpg
http://www.legendgames.co.uk/acatalog/MountainTroll%5B1%5D.jpg

Killer Angel
2009-08-26, 03:41 AM
Dungeons and Dragons is a game. The end goal of a game is to have fun, and this is the underlying principle of Rule Zero - because the ways in which people have fun vary from person to person, and certainly from group to group.

This is the part that you don't get. Your Sigil is not his Sigil and it's not my Sigil. I don't like oxinabox, and I don't like the way he plays, but it's his group's prerogative, not yours. The DM is not a paladin, and the sourcebooks are not his code of conduct.

Well, a DM can certainly toned down very heavily the Lady, and decide that the distruption of Sigil is possible for a bunch of adventurers with a couple of low level tricks. I can live with that (even if I wonder what these adventurers will do reaching epic levels....).
It's their game, and if they enjoy it, fine for them.

But, if you play Planescape, Sigil is (was) a town of diplomacy and affairs, between forces that, outside of Sigil, are in open war.
In the streets walks some of the powerful creatures of all the planes. There are taverns, in which the only clients are devils. There are tons of wizards with their cohorts. Sigil it's unique.
A HUGE amount of money and magic and power, flows through that place. Many beings and DEITIES have interests and plans that involves Sigil, many with a developement of centuries.

Unless you don't want to modify even the basic meaning of the City of the Doors, the problem in destroying Sigil is not a matter of calculating xp, but it's a matter of consequences.
I'm not talking 'bout "rocks fall", or legions of angry inevitables, but on how the universe reacts to this fact: if the campaign wants to be "realistic", this is not a fact that can pass unnoticed, or unpunished, or even unrewarded.

The PC's literally pissed off a good half of the entire universe. Some will congratulated them (hating Sigil or the Lady), but for many others, the PCs just became the public enema n. 1 of all the planes.
They are DANGEROUS, but they are of a level too low, to survive the attentions of the Planes. They should be dead meat.

If a group of first level pc can kill the Emperor of Mankind, and the players like it, it's good for them, but even if the premise is absurd, it's unrealistic for them to survive the consequences of their action.

The City of the Door (and the Lady) exist for good reasons, in the Planescape settings. If you modify their nature too much, sorry but it's no more Planescape, it's some other thing, and calling them "Sigil" and "Lady of Pain" brings only confusion, the same way if you call "troll" a dragon.
You, as a DM, can do it, as you can decide that is possible for a 10 lev. thief, to steal Asmodeus' copy of the primeval pact from his fortress, but don't expect to encounter too much praise on this board.

Samb
2009-08-26, 07:17 AM
Everyone does realize that Sigil is not your everyday city? It is a place where a succubus acts as an intellecutal whore. Where a balor and solor talk politics over a beer, githyanki and githzeria do a comedy bit on the street for money.

Saying everyone in Sigil are NPCs means you don't know Sigil and so far that's a lot of you.

This is the Sigil that Zeb Cook created. So Astralfire is right, it isn't mine. The campaign setting laid out the groundwork and DMs are free toignore everything, but it doesn't change the fact that rules are there and they were broken.

Calmar
2009-08-26, 07:20 AM
Yes, I know. I phrased my point badly. She is not a deity in the D&D sense. D&D gods have finite power. The lady of pain, in her domain , is not limited in the same way. She has absolute power over sigil. Trying to defeat the lady of pain isnt the same as trying to defeat Pelor or Nerull. They have abilities and stats. Fighting the lady of pain is like trying to fight the DM.

Actually, according to the original Planescape campaign setting, every goodess or god is the absolute power in her/his home domain and the PCs aren't supposed to encounter a deity directly.

Edit: And as far as I know the Lady officially only interacts one time directly with the characters in Faction War. Also this adventure is an extraordinary event in the PS timeline and should not be regarded as an example of daily life in Sigil and the planes.
I don't think the Lady should appear to the PCs as long as nothing extremely remarkable happens to justify it.

Killer Angel
2009-08-26, 07:40 AM
This is the Sigil that Zeb Cook created. So Astralfire is right, it isn't mine. The campaign setting laid out the groundwork and DMs are free toignore everything, but it doesn't change the fact that rules are there and they were broken.

It’s also noteworthy to remember that weren’t the PC’s the ones who “destroyed” Sigil. They just made a diversion with a bluff and a couple of low level spells. It was the DM who decided that a pebble thrown in a lake, has become a tsunamy, capable of wiping away 21 millions critters, including Solars, and so on...
The total annihilation of Sigil’s population, with growing uncontrolled riots, it’s a DM’s decision.
A DM can change the fluff of a setting, to give a personal touch to his campaign; with a different starting (high level NPC involved, maybe with some Yugoloth lord pulling the strings after a century of planning), and a good background, a depopulated Sigil could be a great scenario for a completely new Planescape campaign, but I doubt this is the case...

kjones
2009-08-26, 07:49 AM
The thread title was 'a city.' What city it was, in fact, is entirely irrelevant to the opening post aside from determining population, while your example is dependent on the type of army felled and gives a specific level. So I'm not sure your analogy is completely relevant, Miss.

Moreover, the answers were often more like "those aren't trolls and you should feel bad for calling them such." And that makes me giggle because... well... no one can decide what a troll is. (Not a knock against your argument, this is just a good moment for random levity)


No, this is a troll:


That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Bastard Sword" bull**** that's going on in the d20 system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.
Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.
Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.
Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.
So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:
(One-Handed Exotic Weapon) 1d12 Damage 19-20 x4 Crit +2 to hit and damage Counts as Masterwork
(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon) 2d10 Damage 17-20 x4 Crit +5 to hit and damage Counts as Masterwork
Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don't you think?
tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

magellan
2009-08-26, 08:58 AM
The thing with the lady is of course that she is supposed to be ambiguous. And the thing about ambiguity is that some people have no problem with it, and others do, quite a lot.

She works very well if you use her without actually using her.

Also: the answer is 0 XP. why? because the PCs have been mazed when they tried to use a trick on the dabus. They just haven't found out yet that they are in a maze and destroying sigil is not the key.

Zuki
2009-08-26, 09:14 AM
Unless you don't want to modify even the basic meaning of the City of the Doors, the problem in destroying Sigil is not a matter of calculating xp, but it's a matter of consequences.
I'm not talking 'bout "rocks fall", or legions of angry inevitables, but on how the universe reacts to this fact: if the campaign wants to be "realistic", this is not a fact that can pass unnoticed, or unpunished, or even unrewarded.


I'm pretty sure that Oxinabox wouldn't have allowed this to happen in the first place if he didn't have consequences planned. That's the point of a GM, to adjudicate consequences and results for actions.

If a campaign wants to be 'realistic,' it shouldn't have dungeons at all. If a campaign wants to be 'realistic', Adventurers shouldn't be able to dump massive amounts of gold into economies without consequences like market collapse. If a campaign wants to be 'realistic,' slaying the evil king should create a massive power vaccuum with repercussions that last the rest of the story, possibly destabilizing an entire region into civil war and lawlessness.

PCs do this kind of stuff all the time without any, or with incompletely thought out consequences for their actions.

So what? It's not your game, It's Ox's.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-26, 10:07 AM
No, this is a troll:

No, this is a troll;

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/273/realtroll.jpg

Tide- I respect your views, especially as you are aware of the emotional attatchment. It's cool. I like reading about this stuff, especially when the anecdotes don't start out with angry proclamaitions and instead focus on stuff like, how they see things or how they usually play things.

I'd go so far as to say, you're only really a Grognard once you get to the full 'You're doing it wrong!' stage, so I'm not convinced you're there yet, lad. ;)

Keshay
2009-08-26, 10:25 AM
Well now that Astralfire has spanked me, I'll try to offer a more constructive response, not that any of it has not been said before.

The entire debate generated by this thread could have been averted if the OP had made the setting clear from the begining. He chose to say (paraphrase) "My players started a civil war in Sigil" "My players destroyed Sigil." All without bothering to include the rather important tidbit that he was not using published or reasonably expected backstory associated with what the vast majority of the contributors to these boards know as Sigil.

If the OP had had some foresight and thought to tell us that he had heavily modified the setting, or even perhaps had respect enough for the source material to change the name of the city, then I doubt the debate would have occurred (at least not to the extent it has). I certainly did not know the Lady of Pain had been relegated to the "Lady of Minor Ouchies" when I made my original scathing post so kindly referenced by Astral as unhelpful. I would not have bothered since this is all very clearly taking place in a setting I have no knowlege of, and really could care less about.

From the sounds of it, everyone playing is having a good time. Playing a Chaotic Stupid, consequences free campaign with a favorable DM is fun for some people. Rule -1 is "Have fun", all the other rules are irrelevant if you fail in that.

The error made was that by coming here and using terminology that was relatable to all of us, the OP extended that rule outside his own group. As evidenced by the passionate responses on the past several pages, most folks do not find Sigil getting blowed up by a bunch of fools with a bad plan to be a "fun" concept. Had we been notified that a homebrewed interdimensional city loosely modeled on Sigil, lets call it "Rune", was destoryed by his players, ok fine. None of the expectations of how things "should" have gone would have been present and only the feedback desired would have been offered (or not, because apparently the OP wanted a the amount of how much xp players could expect to get for killing each and every denizen in actual combat even though they did not earn that type of reward).

The important lesson here: don't use common terminology for things that have been heavily modified then get upset when the feedback you get is not consistent with the hidden changes you have made. This is a form of dishonest communication and does not serve to advance any sort of meaningful discussion.

To the original question of how much xp: story reward appropriate to level. The actual destruction came about due to DM adjudication and nothing more. They acheived a goal they set out for themselves, and thanks to the DM going along and providing no apparent or reasonable resistance to the plan, they succeded.

sofawall
2009-08-26, 10:55 AM
Regarding Katanas, they're a banned subject on Gleemax. If you speak of a katana, you could be banned for as much as a week, from what I understand.

Mainly due to people like that.

arguskos
2009-08-26, 10:56 AM
Regarding Katanas, they're a banned subject on Gleemax. If you speak of a katana, you could be banned for as much as a week, from what I understand.

Mainly due to people like that.
Ah, 4chan, being hilarious on Gleemax. :smallbiggrin:

quick_comment
2009-08-26, 11:02 AM
The problem with this situation is that the DM took a campaign setting, drastically altered it, and then came in here nearly bragging about how awesome his players are. They didnt do anything awesome, they just went on the rails.

Killer Angel
2009-08-26, 11:24 AM
If a campaign wants to be 'realistic,' it shouldn't have dungeons at all. If a campaign wants to be 'realistic', Adventurers shouldn't be able to dump massive amounts of gold into economies without consequences like market collapse. If a campaign wants to be 'realistic,' slaying the evil king should create a massive power vaccuum with repercussions that last the rest of the story, possibly destabilizing an entire region into civil war and lawlessness.

PCs do this kind of stuff all the time without any, or with incompletely thought out consequences for their actions.


Please, not this: realism is not equal to "real world".
(EDIT: to quote Mark Hall: It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.)
Dungeon can exist in a fantasy setting (and so dragons, magic, demons, etc.): it's the premise and it's realistic.
Dump massive amount of gold into economy, usually don't bring to market collapse (unless you're the government and you begin to create money from paper, hello inflaction).
But slaying the king have consequences, in every world, real or fantastic. Throw in the garbage the consequences, and you lose realism.
Destroy the City of Doors, the sole connection between the Planes, and there will be consequences. If it's done by a bunch of low level adventurers and a magic mouth, even the premise it's unrealistic.

But you're right, it's not my campaign, so I could simply accept the fact.
But if anyone posts a thread on his campaign, I suppose he's open also to some criticism.

kjones
2009-08-26, 11:28 AM
I certainly did not know the Lady of Pain had been relegated to the "Lady of Minor Ouchies"

/thread.

(Perhaps "the Lady of Boo-boos"?)

Samb
2009-08-26, 12:00 PM
Someone please tell the rule that says rules and fun are mutually exclusive. A DM should know the rules, he should know the setting. You CAN have fun within the confides of the rules. I do it all the time.

Sorry if I assume a DM should know his material. I must have super high standards.

He posted in a public forum so no I'm not worried about his ego. I again assume he can take constructive critism.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-26, 12:04 PM
Someone please tell the rule that says rules and fun are mutually exclusive. A DM should know the rules, he should know the setting. You CAN have fun within the confides of the rules. I do it all the time.

Sorry if I assume a DM should know his material. I must have super high standards.

He posted in a public forum so no I'm not worried about his ego. I again assume he can take constructive critism.

"You failed as a DM" is constructive critiscism?

arguskos
2009-08-26, 12:06 PM
"You failed as a DM" is constructive critiscism?
In some worlds, apparently. This is why I just stay out of such discussions anymore, and never post any of my own stories. :smallsigh:

Mongoose87
2009-08-26, 12:09 PM
Someone please tell the rule that says rules and fun are mutually exclusive. A DM should know the rules, he should know the setting. You CAN have fun within the confides of the rules. I do it all the time.

Sorry if I assume a DM should know his material. I must have super high standards.

He posted in a public forum so no I'm not worried about his ego. I again assume he can take constructive critism.

Rules and fun are not mutually exclusive, however, if you believe you will achieve maximum enjoyment by changing the rules, that is what you do. We all house rule, don't we?

Like I said, I don't like the way he handled the situation, but his group isn't mine, so that is his choice.

Samb
2009-08-26, 12:23 PM
Rules and fun are not mutually exclusive, however, if you believe you will achieve maximum enjoyment by changing the rules, that is what you do. We all house rule, don't we?

Like I said, I don't like the way he handled the situation, but his group isn't mine, so that is his choice.

That's not the issue, the issue is that he didn't know the rules or the setting enough in the first place. The DM should be knowledgable, he should know the setting. He ran the setting into the ground not because it was fun, but because he didn't know any better. This is a case of "research breakdown".



"You failed as a DM" is constructive critiscism?

Okay that was harsh, how about: "If you had done more research on the setting you would know this is not possible....."

sofawall
2009-08-26, 12:25 PM
Someone please tell the rule that says rules and fun are mutually exclusive. A DM should know the rules, he should know the setting. You CAN have fun within the confides of the rules. I do it all the time.

Sorry if I assume a DM should know his material. I must have super high standards.

He posted in a public forum so no I'm not worried about his ego. I again assume he can take constructive critism.

You should know the rules, yes. You should know the setting, yes.

But you know what? YOU DON'T NEED THEM. My group plays by 3 types of rules: Book Rules, House Rules, and Rule of Cool.

That is also the exact opposite order of priority. If something is awesome, we roll a d20 and see if it works. If something is broken, we patch it up as best we can, or just ban the bugger. If we have absolutely no other rules for something, only then do we turn to the book. Only then.

EDIT: GRARG! It is possible, that is my point! It does not need to be canonical. Star Wars has many stories that, while not strictly Canonical, are STILL GOOD. So does Star Trek. Many series' have non-canonical, yet good stories.

The writers don't feel they have to follow arbitrary restrictions, they liked bits and pieces of a setting, or a story, so they took them and adapted them.

Or are you going to attack George Lucas next and tell him he's a failure as a director because he didn't follow the exact plot of one the innumerable stories Star Wars is a reflavour of.

Roland St. Jude
2009-08-26, 12:26 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please do not insult, attack, or belittle other posters for any reason here. That includes insults based on their playstyle.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-26, 12:56 PM
As much as I am quite confused and fairly disgusted by the traces of rigid adherence to what Planescape "should" be...

When people say this shouldn't have happened, they're right. This was ultimately caused by a few disguises and illusions, none of which are too much higher than level 3 or so. If such spells could knock a city into destruction, then they would have a long time ago. The Lady of Pain (or the Lady of Boo-Boos, one that I much prefer), what Planescape "should" be, and the fact that this is Sigil doesn't matter.

((City your players destroyed)) has had magic for millions of years. They have had Harmonium, Mercykillers, and Dabu for millenia. They have had doppelgangers with the potential and motives to mime Harmonium and Mercykillers for millenia. They have had mages with the potential and motives to mime Dabu for millenia. It is unrealistic that your players, after these millenia have passed, happen to be the first ones to try this plot. And if they weren't the first ones, then the city would just rebuild.

It doesn't matter whether this is Sigil, Castle Greyhawk, Mexico City, or Princess-Pony-Land-Where-Effigies-of-The-Lady-of-Pain-are-Burned-Continuously. The simple age and magical concentration of the city (which you have indeed given as a premise) are enough to make a prolonged destruction unrealistic. The setting, what the setting should be, and any alleged false pretenses are irrelevant.

So, in short, the war ends, the city rebuilds, and the Lady of Boo-Boos throws a hissy fit as her incompetence and ridiculousness is exposed (again, because this happened in the past). Your party gains a reward for completing a Major Quest, because they didn't do the individual heavy lifting. When, long after your PCs retire, some crackpot conspiracy theorist decides to do an in-depth research divination into the caused behind this little war...

Then your PCs die. But in the short term, I'd advise you to just quietly rebuild the city and the setting, congratulate your PCs for tipping over a boiling pot, and not-so-quietly hint that going back to normal goblin genocide to lay low might be a very good idea.

Please pardon my rambling, everything I said has already been said before but more clearly. I'm just throwing money and trying to get two cents into this thread.

Killer Angel
2009-08-26, 12:59 PM
Regarding Katanas, they're a banned subject on Gleemax. If you speak of a katana, you could be banned for as much as a week, from what I understand.


Then, we should try with Bananas... :smallwink:

Eldan
2009-08-26, 01:41 PM
We all know that Bananas, being the good source of potassium there are, should give a +2 inherent bonus to Int, Dex and Str when eaten, as they improve nerves and muscles.. Furthermore, their peels replicated the effect of a grease spell in a five foot square, but with a -5 penalty to balance checks. :smallwink:

Geddoe
2009-08-26, 01:49 PM
Because without her there is no logical reason for Sigil to exist, which would probably lead to lots of problems.

Yes, because no city can possibly exist as a trade hub frequented by different factions and groups in any world without a DEM to enforce the rules. I know Rome had at least 3 administering justice in 100 ad just to keep the city from falling apart.

The Statue of Liberty is actually an overdeity making sure that New York isn't wiped out, because all the different agendas there make it necessary.

Eldan
2009-08-26, 01:59 PM
Imagine if every window and door in rome had lead to another country. What if some pleb could have jumped out of his window and landed in the bedroom of some asian ruler? If they could just walk to Australia, America, the southern tip of africa in six seconds? What if they could dump murderers and traitors into the antarctic? And everyone who was in these countries could just come to rome the same way?
Betcha there would be a lot more attempted sackings of rome.

Doc Roc
2009-08-26, 02:11 PM
The Statue of Liberty is actually an overdeity making sure that New York isn't wiped out, because all the different agendas there make it necessary.

Getting the truth out won't be that easy. Please remain on the line.

Umael
2009-08-26, 02:34 PM
Regarding Katanas, they're a banned subject on Gleemax. If you speak of a katana, you could be banned for as much as a week, from what I understand.

...

Could I talk about wakizashi then?



On topic:

...

Who's the Lady of Pain?

No, seriously. Who is she and why should I care?

...kinda like a keystone?

Yeah, okay, but if she works that way, shouldn't Sigil still be around?

...well, sure, but I don't even know what Sigil is.

...huh. Okay.

No, never played it.

That's okay.

*shrug* Well, it's the OP's world. I wouldn't play in it, but then again, I'm short on time anyway, so I doubt I'll be playing a game with someone I don't know in a setting I don't know with time I don't have.

...well, I might. Depends on who is running it.

...fan boys. Go fig.

Yeah, I'd be upset too, until I realized that it wasn't my world. I mean, yeah, it looks like my world, but I released it to the public, so... yeah. These things happen.

Plane, world, same thing.

...no, I haven't played that either. Guess I'm not much of an authority then.

Um... thirty years?

Thanks for reminding me.

Shut up.

I'm getting my cane now. Come 'ere!

quick_comment
2009-08-26, 02:47 PM
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd80/AwXomeMan/morbo.jpg

That is not how ellipses work

Umael
2009-08-26, 03:09 PM
That is not how ellipses work

What are these "ellipses" of which you mention?

I know what an "ellipse" is, and what "ellipsis" is, but not "ellipses"...

Hijax
2009-08-26, 03:35 PM
Imagine if every window and door in rome had lead to another country. What if some pleb could have jumped out of his window and landed in the bedroom of some asian ruler? If they could just walk to Australia, America, the southern tip of africa in six seconds? What if they could dump murderers and traitors into the antarctic? And everyone who was in these countries could just come to rome the same way?
Betcha there would be a lot more attempted sackings of rome.

in addition, comparing rome with it opposing and varying ideals with sigil doesn't quite add up. in rome, you have humans. they might have opposing and radical ideas, they might be able to get some followers, but they're still mere mortals. in sigil, you have beings whose very purpose of existence is to fight each other's cause, and with the power to level the whole city, living alongside each other.

Random832
2009-08-26, 03:51 PM
What are these "ellipses" of which you mention?

I know what an "ellipse" is, and what "ellipsis" is, but not "ellipses"...

The plural of ellipsis is ellipses (last syllable pronounced "-eez")

Umael
2009-08-26, 04:39 PM
The plural of ellipsis is ellipses (last syllable pronounced "-eez")

*checks*

Really?

*double-checks*

I'm sorry, governor, but it looks likes the plural of ellipse is ellipsis, not ellipses.

Actually, I found the definition of ellipses (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ellipses?jss=1).

...

When did we get to discussing geometry? (Gods, I love this forum! :smallbiggrin:)

only1doug
2009-08-26, 04:41 PM
well, I've never played planescape and my only knowledge of the subject is what I've gathered from reading these threads but I have to agree that it seems impossible for low level characters to achieve the results the GM has indicated...

So perhaps they only think thats whats happened...

"Your PCs awake resurrected as per their request of the gods, they wander the shattered ruins of the city of Sigil, where do you wish to go?"
after some wandering they should find nothing left on the plane but crumbling remnants of a shattered city and the corpses of its citizens.

when they get bored of wandering around (slowly starving to death if they take awhile to get bored) they encounter The Lady (fully healthy) who will say "Is this truly the future you seek?"

after they decide they don't want it she releases them from the communal mind trap (like a perfect virtual reality) she placed them in when they first considered casting the first illusion. they are returned to the city as it was at the beginning of the adventure and warned that she will not be as generous if they threaten her city again.

yes, it was all just a dream, cliche perhaps but the only way of retrieving the campaign that I can see.

Kylarra
2009-08-26, 04:43 PM
*checks*

Really?

*double-checks*

I'm sorry, governor, but it looks likes the plural of ellipse is ellipsis, not ellipses.

Actually, I found the definition of ellipses (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ellipses?jss=1).

...

When did we get to discussing geometry? (Gods, I love this forum! :smallbiggrin:)
From your own link. :smallwink:


el⋅lip⋅sis
  /ɪˈlɪpsɪs/ [i-lip-sis]
–noun, plural -ses  /-siz/ [-seez]
Grammar.
a. the omission from a sentence or other construction of one or more words that would complete or clarify the construction, as the omission of who are, while I am, or while we are from I like to interview people sitting down.
b. the omission of one or more items from a construction in order to avoid repeating the identical or equivalent items that are in a preceding or following construction, as the omission of been to Paris from the second clause of I've been to Paris, but they haven't.
2. Printing. a mark or marks as ——, …, or * * *, to indicate an omission or suppression of letters or words.

Umael
2009-08-26, 05:13 PM
Kylarra:

Heh. Funny that. Ellipses is also the plural of ellipse.

Strange, this English language.


From Wikipedia:


The use of ellipsis can either mislead or clarify, and the reader must rely on the good intentions of the writer who uses them. An example of this ambiguity is "She went to … school." In this sentence, "…" might represent the word "elementary." Omission of part of a quoted sentence without indication by an ellipsis (or bracketed text) would mislead the readers. For example, "She went to school," as opposed to "She went to Broadmoor Elementary school."

An ellipsis may also imply an unstated alternative indicated by context. For example, when Count Dracula says "I never drink … wine", the implication is that he does drink something else, which in the context would be blood. In such usage the ellipsis is stronger than a mere dash, where for example "I never drink—wine" might only indicate that the Count, not a native English speaker, was pausing to get the correct word.

In writing the speech of a character in fiction or nonfiction, the ellipsis is sometimes used to represent an intentional silence of a character, usually invoked to emphasize a character's irritation, appall, shock or disgust.

...emphasis mine.

That was my original intent on use of the ellipsis.

Which, apparently, quick_comment completely missed.

*chuckle*


[/threadjack]

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-26, 05:14 PM
Sigil has burst into a massively destructive civil war. If the non-epic characters are smart, at this point they're not in the city. I'd advise just bringing magic and psionics in to rebuild the whole of Sigil. If Sigil was unstable enough that a party of 4 could break it, then things were beyond the characters' control. Just tell them to lay low while the now-angered Lady of Pain hires the universe's best diviners to see which one of her enemies pushed the city over the brink.

Haven
2009-08-26, 05:31 PM
*checks*

Really?

*double-checks*

I'm sorry, governor, but it looks likes the plural of ellipse is ellipsis, not ellipses.

Actually, I found the definition of ellipses (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ellipses?jss=1).

...

When did we get to discussing geometry? (Gods, I love this forum! :smallbiggrin:)

This makes me laugh for the exact same reasons the post of yours before this did.

Anyway: there's nothing wrong with house-ruling, but this scenario happening the way it did means that the PCs are the only ones who both wanted to and were capable of destroying Sigil. In the entire multiverse. Which means that they are either more powerful and skilled than all the gods and demons, or all those gods and demons now want them dead, and if that doesn't happen: goto 10.

Hijax
2009-08-27, 10:58 AM
Sigil has burst into a massively destructive civil war. If the non-epic characters are smart, at this point they're not in the city. I'd advise just bringing magic and psionics in to rebuild the whole of Sigil. If Sigil was unstable enough that a party of 4 could break it, then things were beyond the characters' control. Just tell them to lay low while the now-angered Lady of Pain hires the universe's best diviners to see which one of her enemies pushed the city over the brink.

Wait, WHAT!?. She's omnipotent, she already knows that.

Optimystik
2009-08-27, 11:01 AM
Wait, WHAT!?. She's omnipotent, she already knows that.

I think you mean "omniscient" then.

Hijax
2009-08-27, 11:04 AM
I think you mean "omniscient" then.

omnipotence means automatic omniscience, because you just sue your powers to extract all knowledge from the whole universe in the blink of an eye, or quicker. at least if its the real ****.


Do you think I could sucker someone into running a planescape game? I miss playing.

i know its a lot of posts ago, but damnit, i'd play in this.