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Alcopop
2009-08-24, 11:32 PM
Okay, my friend is running a fairly non serious epic campaign.The rules are any wizard book, no dragon mag. ELC 30 but only up to 25 character levels.

With this I decided to play a silly epic fox druid, my friend calculated its stat adjustments (including size) as;
-2 Str
+6 Dex
-8 Int
+2 Wis
-4 Cha
(Looks right?)

The problem I’m running into is that I need to fill up that gap between 25 Character levels and ECL 30, but every template that looks halfway decent or suitable changes my fox's type from animal to X. And this is something I really want to avoid, as it means I am no longer eligible for many of my druid buffs.

Anything you guys can think of to help me fill the gap but still remain an animal?

Mando Knight
2009-08-24, 11:37 PM
Use an Awakened (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) animal as the base creature. -8 Int means "always an animal, not available as a character."

Also, Magical Beast is better than Animal. As is Dragon. And Outsider.

Skorj
2009-08-24, 11:49 PM
Foxes are pretty smart IRL, smarter than a working dog, and fantastic foxes always have high CHA. Make the stats high enough to be a LA4 race.

erikun
2009-08-25, 12:03 AM
A fox generally has the same stats as a dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dog.htm), possibly with -2 Str/+2 Dex. At least, they have in nearly every published source I've seen. Oh, and a +4 racial bonus to Hide, rather than jump. Given the modifiers there and the Awaken spell, you're base stats should look something like this.

+2 Str
+6 Dex
+4 Con
+0 Int (INT 2 for animal)
+2 Wis (+2 Wis for animal)
-2 Cha (-4 Cha for animal)
Small sized
Low Light Vision
Scent
+4 racial bonus to Hide
+4 racial bonus to Survival when tracking by Scent

Please note that "Animal" means "Animal Intelligence". Something with animal intelligence can't talk, can't converse, and most certainly can't cast spells. If your Intelligence raises to 3 or above somehow, you're not an animal anymore.

Take a look at the animal type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#animalType) description.

Traits
An animal possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

- Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).
- Low-light vision.
- Alignment: Always neutral.
- Treasure: None.
- Proficient with its natural weapons only. A noncombative herbivore uses its natural weapons as a secondary attack. Such attacks are made with a -5 penalty on the creature’s attack rolls, and the animal receives only ½ its Strength modifier as a damage adjustment.
- Proficient with no armor unless trained for war.
- Animals eat, sleep, and breathe.

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-25, 12:41 AM
I agree with Skorj here (admittedly, I also class WotC's Animal Int rules as specisist). For a fox, I'd say -6 Str, +2 Int, Dex and Cha should work well (or possibly drop the Cha bonus for +4 Dex). For other traits, I'd go with Small, 30' MovementGarkvision 60', Scent, +4 to all Hide, Survival and Move Silently checks, and limit their equipment to Head, 4 Ring/Arm slots and 1 shouldr slot (I know the racial features are powerful, but my logic is that they need to be to balance out the inability to use weapons and armour).

I can't really help with templates sadly (I don't know much about how to use them).

Salt_Crow
2009-08-25, 01:04 AM
There was a fox animal companion printed in Complete Champion. When you remove the AC bonuses you'll get a fox!

Alcopop
2009-08-25, 02:30 AM
As much as i'de love to play the more highly stated Fox but I don't think my GM would let it through.

I think i'll just have to say goodbye to the druid buff and use an awakened animal (though on a limb would the augmented animal subtype still be enough to qualify for the animal specific buffs?)

Okay, now to decide what templates!

Atm i'm thinking feral (+1) spellwarped (+3). But I still need another nice +1 or +2 that suits.

The Glyphstone
2009-08-25, 02:33 AM
Have you already discounted an Anthropomorphic Fox?

Alcopop
2009-08-25, 02:44 AM
I'm afraid so good sir! (it's the avatar you have, you just have to say sir!)

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-25, 03:14 AM
I've never seen the official Anthromorphic fox (I made 2 anthro-fox races a while back called Vulpines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95436) and Fenneckin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/index.php?t-104140.html)). (The Vulpine's hand in this picture shouldn't be that big: http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/2232/racesal4.jpg ).

Why isn't the DM likely to let you use the better Fox stats?

Alcopop
2009-08-25, 03:52 AM
The anthromorphic fox doesn't exist. Infact the fox as a creature only exists in third party material (Tomb of Horrors).

As for those custom ones there, I really had my heart set on actualy running a fox, not a humaniod fox (as cute as they are :P). You know, running round, eating garbage, obliterating lesser dieties. that kinda thing.

A couple of questions that have popped up;

Do you retain template benefits and penalties when wildshaped?
&
How can I get my fox a poison bite attack!? (without wildshape!)
&
Any indexes or threads beyond cystal keep have a collection of templates?

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-25, 04:52 AM
I only posted those 2 races in case there was something official to compare them to (I know there was a race in earlier editions called Anachus which were unofficially converted here: http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=851 ), but normal foxes aren't on that Enworld Converted Monster site.:smallfrown:

I'd assume your templates would still be applied while Wildshaped, there are a few converted templates on http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/ and the Poisonous Template on http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf is the only thing I know of that would work (I don't know what the Evolved feat does other then negate the spell failure chance, though).

Carden
2009-08-25, 01:43 PM
Woodling from MM3 would work quite well with a fox druid. It won't change your creature type and gives some very druidic spell-like abilities. Also, if you don't mind changing the subtype, Chameleon from the Underdark book gives some decent bonuses by becoming reptilian.

hamishspence
2009-08-25, 01:57 PM
Frostburn has stats for a fox- an Arctic fox.


FOX, ARCTIC

Small Animal
Hit Dice: 1d8-1 (3 hp)
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares)
Initiative: +3
Armour Class: 15 (+1 size, +3 dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-6
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d4-2)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d4-2)
Space/Reach: 5ft./5ft.
Special Qualities: Low light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 17, Con 8, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +9*, Listen +4, Spot +4
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse (bonus feat)
Environment: Cold plains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 1/4
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: -

Scent (Ex): An arctic fox can detect opponents within 30 feet. The exact location is not revealed unless the creature is within 5 feet.

Skills: *In areas of snow, ice, or tundra, an arctic fox gains a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks.

So, we do have at least 1 official fox statblock.